Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ace_of_time 12-28-07, 06:47 PM	Now according to the Rules of the Game. Touch Spells: The duration for a touch spell doesn't begin until the caster touches a subject and delivers the spell to a recipient. Attempting to touch a recipient requires a melee touch attack and that is part of the action used to cast the spell during the round when the spell is completed. If the recipient is willing to be touched, it's usually best to just assume the caster touches the recipient. If the caster does not touch a recipient then (either because she doesn't try to or the melee touch attack fails), she must use an action (usually the attack or full attack action) to touch a recipient during a later round. This is called "holding the charge." A caster holding a charge is considered armed and can use an attack of opportunity to make a melee touch attack and deliver the spell. Whenever the caster touches anything, the held charge is discharged, even if what the caster touches isn't a valid target for the spell (in that case, the spell is wasted). The charge also is lost (and wasted) if the caster casts another spell. Otherwise, a caster can hold a charge indefinitely. DMs should feel free to set some reasonable limit to how long a character can hold a charge, perhaps 1 hour or until the caster has to go to sleep (or trance in the case of elves). A very few touch spells (water breathing, for example) can be partially discharged. If so, this will be mentioned in the spell's target entry and its descriptive text, or both. As a full-round action you can touch up to six friends willing creatures, object that willing creatures hold, or objects just lying round by themselves), provided that all the recipients are within the caster's reach. (The caster can extend her reach a little by taking a 5-foot step during the process.) To use this option, you must first cast the spell and hold the charge. Because the recipients are willing, no melee touch attack is required. You must decide how to distribute the spell's effect before touching anything. Now It stated on another thread with me saying to use a liches touch attack during a grapple all I had to do was roll a concentration check since we were grappling it would auto active. Now this was just what I thought not what the RAW say, which I have yet to find out how the RAW say touch attack works during a grapple. Some say you have to roll a grapple check and others say no matter what unless stated different you are required to roll an attack roll. I don't really care about that now. Any way I post what the RotG said because I said that a Touch attack discharges on contact with the target and that target is not chosen when the spell is cast but is chosen when you touch the target and that touch discharges the spell. I have been told by many that this is stupid, In not so many words and has turned the other thread into them verses me and nobody discussing what the thread was meant to be about. Trying to respect the OP of the other thread's wishes to get their thread back to the point I have started this one in hopes that they will post over here what they think on the subject and that thread can return to the point of the thread. Any one can post their thoughts on here not just those from the other thread. Also if anyone know if it says in the rules that you have to roll a grapple check to deliver a touch attack please post it. Thanks again. I'll go first by posting a spell that require a touch. Shocking Grasp Evocation [Electricity] Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature or object touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes Your successful melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 5d6). When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or made out of metal, carrying a lot of metal, or the like).
DrMorganes 12-28-07, 10:11 PM	First up, a lich's paralyzing touch is not a spell. There's no "holding the charge", so your quoted rules don't necessarily apply. That said, I think it's implied that a lich has to touch the target with its hand to force the save vs paralyzing touch. In that case, yes, a successful Grapple Check would be required. Imagine: Bob the Bear Warrior (a grappling GOD, but not exactly the brightest torch in the dungeon) decides he's going to grapple Larry the Lich. Bob knows that liches can paralyze with a touch, so the first thing he does is grab both of Larry's wrists and try to pin it to the wall. Larry, of course, wants Bob to get off and so they struggle. Larry makes a grapple check on his turn to try to get a hand free to touch Bob. Larry gets lucky, succeeds on his Grapple Check, and gets his touch attack. Bob, being a raging barbarian, shrugs off the effect with an unpleasant sneer and slams Larry to the wall, pinning him.
Loriac 12-28-07, 11:56 PM	First up, a lich's paralyzing touch is not a spell. There's no "holding the charge", so your quoted rules don't necessarily apply. That said, I think it's implied that a lich has to touch the target with its hand to force the save vs paralyzing touch. In that case, yes, a successful Grapple Check would be required. Imagine: Bob the Bear Warrior (a grappling GOD, but not exactly the brightest torch in the dungeon) decides he's going to grapple Larry the Lich. Bob knows that liches can paralyze with a touch, so the first thing he does is grab both of Larry's wrists and try to pin it to the wall. Larry, of course, wants Bob to get off and so they struggle. Larry makes a grapple check on his turn to try to get a hand free to touch Bob. Larry gets lucky, succeeds on his Grapple Check, and gets his touch attack. Bob, being a raging barbarian, shrugs off the effect with an unpleasant sneer and slams Larry to the wall, pinning him. From the D20 SRD: If You’re Grappling When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses... ...Attack Your Opponent You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks... ...If You’re Pinned by an Opponent When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling... My reading of this in the context of touch attacks is: i. if you're grappling, but not currently pinned, then the touch attack is rolled with a -4 penalty (I'm not sure if I'd waive this penalty for touch attacks if the defender wasn't expecting it - i.e. if you're grappling and see someone try and hit you with a dagger, then you're going to defend against that. If however, your opponent is unarmed, you might not perceive any danger in them touching you with their hand - in this case, I'd be tempted to allow a normal touch attack without a penalty. This would only apply where you were caught off guard, and I would rule that subsequent touches in that situation would require the -4 penalty) ii. if you're pinned, then per the excerpt above, it requires an attack action to break the pin. I.e. you can't break the pin and touch attack [for a spell] in the same round (as a touch attack for a spell replaces all attack options). However, you can break the pin and touch attack with a second or subsequent attack if you e.g. have the lich's touch attack as in the example. If you only have a single attack based on BAB, then you're out of luck for that round. The -4 penalty would still apply, as you're still grappling. In the example given, if Larry has BAB of 6 or more, he gets to try the touch attack provided he breaks the grapple and makes the touch attack roll at -4 (as Bob in this case knew about the lich's touch attack). This means that Larry is rolling at least -9 on his full BAB to make the touch attack, which may indicate that Bob's not as dumb as he might first appear.
Ace_of_time 12-29-07, 10:08 AM	To be clear on this. The touch attack is his negative energy touch attack not the paralyzing one. The example in the other thread was against a young adult green dragon. Not that it matters. The rules for grapple don't say anything about touch attacks. Now you could say touch attack for monsters would count as a natural weapon but if it was from a spell it wouldn't. My thoughts on it was since you have to roll a touch attack for the grapple you are already in contact with the target and would not need a touch attack. My other problem is that I can't find neg energy attack anywhere and don't know what type of ability it is. I was thinking it was a supernatural ability, but don't know for sure. GRAPPLE Grapple Checks Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier Special Size Modifier: The special size modifier for a grapple check is as follows: Colossal +16, Gargantuan +12, Huge +8, Large +4, Medium +0, Small –4, Tiny –8, Diminutive –12, Fine –16. Use this number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making an attack roll. Starting a Grapple To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses). Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2. Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3. Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are. In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie. Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target. If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1. Grappling Consequences While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited. No Threatened Squares: You don’t threaten any squares while grappling. No Dexterity Bonus: You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.) No Movement: You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check (see below) to move while grappling. If You’re Grappling When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. Activate a Magic Item: You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require a spell completion trigger. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item. Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage. Draw a Light Weapon: You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check. Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s). Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple. Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple. Retrieve a Spell Component: You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check. Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below). Break Another’s Pin: If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned. Use Opponent’s Weapon: If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a –4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action). You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action. If You’re Pinning an Opponent You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking. You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt (see Disarm). You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa). You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape another’s grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break another’s pin while you are pinning an opponent. If You’re Pinned by an Opponent When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling. Joining a Grapple If your target is already grappling someone else, you can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target doesn’t get an attack of opportunity against you, and your grab automatically succeeds. You still have to make a successful opposed grapple check to become part of the grapple. If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, you pick one to make the opposed grapple check against. Multiple Grapplers Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple. When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent. Here are the full rules on grapple. Now it does say you have to roll a grapple check to damage with an unarmed strike. It also says you have to roll a grapple check for drawing a weapon. But only says you need a attack rollat -4 for weapon and natural weapons and unarmed strike. It only calls for grapple for on unarmed strike. I'm getting confused now.:confused:
Senevri 12-29-07, 10:57 AM	don't be. Attack with a light weapon is rolled at -4. Touch attack is an attack which targets Touch AC. Not complicated.
MrCustomer 12-29-07, 02:50 PM	Nothing to be confused by. A touch attack requires you to touch your opponent with your hand. Now if you are grappling, then you need to make a sucessful grapple to touch your opponent with your hand. After all you are holding them down with your hands if you pin them. "you make a melee touch attack to grab your target" no reason why you can't deliver a Touch attack at the same time. Once you have pinned the target: "you deliver damage as with an unarmed strike" again no reason why you cannot deliver a Touch attack, except of course that you cannot cast any spells which require Somantic components, since your hands are holding your opponent. If you are pinned yourself, ie your opponent is holding you down, then you would have to first escape to make a touch attack. The only limits therefore while grappling to makign touch ttacks is. -You must have your hands free, so cannot make one while pinned unless you first escape. -You cannot cast spells with a Somantic component. -Casting a spell takes an action, unless you cast the touch attack previously and hold the charge or it is an instant, automatic ability (like a liche's effect) -Making a successful grapple is a Touch attack, -When your target is pinned you can automatically damage him with your touch attacks, assuming you can cast the spells.
Ace_of_time 12-29-07, 04:54 PM	You only have to have a still spell feat or a dragon mark/Aberrant feat that damage. My line of thinking was that if he made Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3. Then both would already your hands on each other (except for creatures like dragons that don't use hands) and no grapple or touch would be needed. Now I'm not saying I'm right just want to discuss it with others. Unless your pinned you both should be grappling with each other. I just don't see a person fight someone /thing off without using his hands. In my line of thinking if the lich charged the neg energy attack and then waitedfor the other person to use the next grapple check the touch would discharge automatically. Because your going to be fighting them off with both hands anyway. Even if this is not I don't see making a spellcaster/ someone with a touch attack roll a grapple check to touch someone they are touching anyway. If they were pinned yes I could see it because you would have to get your hand free first.
MrCustomer 12-29-07, 05:44 PM	Yes but they have to make a successful graple check in order to touch the other person, failure means the target evades your attempts to grab them (ie make a touch attack) Once you pin the person, you could make as many touch attacks as you could normally make, automatically damaging them, unless they escaped your grapple (assuming you could cast those spells)
deathbane 12-29-07, 08:07 PM	You only have to have a still spell feat or a dragon mark/Aberrant feat that damage. My line of thinking was that if he made Then both would already your hands on each other (except for creatures like dragons that don't use hands) and no grapple or touch would be needed. Now I'm not saying I'm right just want to discuss it with others. Unless your pinned you both should be grappling with each other. I just don't see a person fight someone /thing off without using his hands. In my line of thinking if the lich charged the neg energy attack and then waitedfor the other person to use the next grapple check the touch would discharge automatically. Because your going to be fighting them off with both hands anyway. Even if this is not I don't see making a spellcaster/ someone with a touch attack roll a grapple check to touch someone they are touching anyway. If they were pinned yes I could see it because you would have to get your hand free first. Grappling is not just two people rolling around on the ground. If we are locked up with each other, but I pin you in such a way that you can't move your hands we are still grappling, but you can't touch me, so your touch attack is an attempt to get you hand free so you can touch me. Grappling does not mean auto touch. The attack roll is always required. Even if someone is helpless and can't move an attack roll is required unless the players states they will use a coup de grace, and I am sure if you have to make an attack roll against a person that can't move you would have to make one in a grapple since they are not completely helpless.
Ace_of_time 12-29-07, 11:58 PM	This is a discussion on how you think it works not who is right or wrong. I said that if the person is pinned then it would be different, but that is two rolls Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below). And when you pin some one you can decide how they are pinned. If You’re Pinning an Opponent You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking. You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt (see Disarm). You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa). You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape another’s grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break another’s pin while you are pinning an opponent. So say you are grappling some spellcaster andf you know he can cast when grappled. So you can tell the DM on your turn that you want to try to pin him in a way that he can't touch you with a touch attack, then if you win the grapple you pin him. You are not auto pinned after the first grapple check is maybe to start the grapple.
Ace_of_time 12-30-07, 12:13 AM	Yes but they have to make a successful graple check in order to touch the other person, failure means the target evades your attempts to grab them (ie make a touch attack) Once you pin the person, you could make as many touch attacks as you could normally make, automatically damaging them, unless they escaped your grapple (assuming you could cast those spells)The question is about the person being grappled not the grappler. To be clear on this, It is after the first grapple check to start the grapple but before a pin grapple roll is made. So the grapple has started but the person/ creature didn't get the pin last round and it is your turn. You decide to cast a touch spell and hold the charge. Next time the enemy tries to pin you again and you roll to oppose his grapple check to pin. What happens to the charged spell at that time. My line of thinking is that you are going to be pushing/pulling/ fighting him of with your hands. I mean it is life or death in D&D. And Rules of the game says that when HOLDING THE CHARGE if you touch anything the spell discharges whether it could effect the target or not. So what do you people think would happen to the spell given the example. Note: I was told on the other thread that even if you were touching him already you had to retouch for the touch attack. The example give was healing someone. You touch them to heal them and then if you had to heal them more you would need to retouch them to deliver the second heal spell. My thinking was that once you were touching you could cast as many heals as need without having to retouch them each time. Not saying whether this is right or wrong just posting where the confusion is from.
deathbane 12-30-07, 12:33 AM	The question is about the person being grappled not the grappler. To be clear on this, It is after the first grapple check to start the grapple but before a pin grapple roll is made. So the grapple has started but the person/ creature didn't get the pin last round and it is your turn. You decide to cast a touch spell and hold the charge. Next time the enemy tries to pin you again and you roll to oppose his grapple check to pin. What happens to the charged spell at that time. My line of thinking is that you are going to be pushing/pulling/ fighting him of with your hands. I mean it is life or death in D&D. And Rules of the game says that when HOLDING THE CHARGE if you touch anything the spell discharges whether it could effect the target or not. So what do you people think would happen to the spell given the example. Nothing happens. He may have tried to pin you, but failed. You could be on your stomach, and he is cross your back. When you are making your attempt to escape you may be trying to turn around so you can fight him off. In your attempt to escape the pin you may be squirming enough so he can't pin you but that does not mean you touched him. Contact with someone's body does not discharge the spell. If in combat you HAVE to make the touch attack. If a DM went by your interpretation of touch anything, that you seem to be alone on, then he could say you body touched the ground assuming he has you on the ground, but the grappling rules never say anything about a takedown, it just implies some type of entanglement. If you want to houserule touch means contact in any shape or form and that discharges a touch spell then go ahead, but I really doubt that most of the board is wrong on a simple rule such as touch attack. I have given you examples on both this thread, and the other of how someone can grapple another person without being touched but you seem to want to ignore it. I have also posted the coup de grace example, and yet you have no answer as to why a rule would be posted for a helpless person, and not one for a person capable of defending themselves I also gave you the potential to steal a clerics cure spell, and asked why if that was how the spell worked, why the strategy has not been mentioned before. You never addressed that. Once again there is no auto-touch attack. I understand your point, but that is not how the rules work.
Ace_of_time 12-30-07, 12:58 AM	Then I would ask how 1. You both got from standing up to you being pinned in 1 grapple check and both on the ground at that. If for some wierd D&D reason you could go from not grappled to pinned in one grapple check and your pinned face down in the dirt you could just reach down and touch his knee. That would matter because when you both hit the ground if you hand touched it, according to RotG, it would discharge. Luckly you have to roll two grapple checks to be pinned and nothing in the rules says you fall on the ground when you are both grappling. But you do have a right to think as you wish. Note: They all ready have items that steal heal spell. The only way a heal spell could be stolen ( the way your example suggest) is if the cleric decided to hold the charge on the heal. You can't ready an action to steal it because the action would take place before the spell was cast. Nor could delay an action to do that because touch with the touch spell and casting the touch spell is the same action unless you hold the charge. When they did that then the next thing he touch would be cure by the spell. If it couldn't be cured by the spell it would be wasted.
Valgoth 12-30-07, 04:13 AM	Also... don't forget somatic components... aka "fancy arm wavin'". I've ruled on this in the past as follows: If you're grappled but not pinned, you must succeed in a grapple check to cast a touch spell with a somatic component, which automatically hits. If you're grappled but not pinned, and the touch spell you want to cast requires no somatic component (still spell, "bracers of arcane freedom", etc), you can make a touch attack at -4 without having to succeed in a grapple check. If you're pinned, assume you can do nothing.
deathbane 12-30-07, 07:59 AM	Then I would ask how 1. You both got from standing up to you being pinned in 1 grapple check and both on the ground at that. If for some wierd D&D reason you could go from not grappled to pinned in one grapple check and your pinned face down in the dirt you could just reach down and touch his knee. That would matter because when you both hit the ground if you hand touched it, according to RotG, it would discharge. Luckly you have to roll two grapple checks to be pinned and nothing in the rules says you fall on the ground when you are both grappling. But you do have a right to think as you wish. I don't understand the bold part. I am assuming that you are assuming that pinned means you are on the ground. I don't know how much martial arts you know, but you can immobolize(pin) someone from a standing position. If grappling meant you were automatically on the ground then you would have to spend a move action to stand up once the grappled was escaped or released. I am the one who said grapple checks DON'T mean you are one the ground. Don't try to make it sound like I said you are one the ground. I also never said anything about one grapple check equaling a pin. I was saying that IF you are pinned it does not automatically mean you are on the ground, but if you are on the ground your meaning of touch anything could make you discharge the spell if you are fade-down, and you hands are on the ground since you would not your face to hit the ground. Your meaning of touch would make people have to describe how they are holding the person so they don't get touched by the other person, and the player(not character) with the best knowledge of wrestling type holds would win in this descriptive contest unless D&D went through the trouble of making up grappling holds. To make things simple they just make you still have to make the touch attack, even in a grapple. Note: They all ready have items that steal heal spell. The only way a heal spell could be stolen ( the way your example suggest) is if the cleric decided to hold the charge on the heal. You can't ready an action to steal it because the action would take place before the spell was cast. Nor could delay an action to do that because touch with the touch spell and casting the touch spell is the same action unless you hold the charge. When they did that then the next thing he touch would be cure by the spell. If it couldn't be cured by the spell it would be wasted. I could ready an action to touch or better yet grapple the cleric since contact means touch according to your rules I get the spell benefits.
Loriac 12-30-07, 05:09 PM	Also... don't forget somatic components... aka "fancy arm wavin'". I've ruled on this in the past as follows: If you're grappled but not pinned, you must succeed in a grapple check to cast a touch spell with a somatic component, which automatically hits. If you're grappled but not pinned, and the touch spell you want to cast requires no somatic component (still spell, "bracers of arcane freedom", etc), you can make a touch attack at -4 without having to succeed in a grapple check. If you're pinned, assume you can do nothing. The first ruling you mention is a houserule, as it is directly contradicted by the following (taken from the grappling rules quoted above): "Cast a Spell You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. " I.e. grappling means you simply can't cast a spell with a somatic component. I prefer the RAW here, as it makes sense that in a grapple you don't have freedom to move in an unrestricted fashion. Also, per RAW, even a touch spell with no somatic components requires a concentration check (as well as the touch attack roll at -4, as resolution of whether you touch is a separate matter to whether you can actually cast the spell) To the OP, I'm really failing to see how you're finding these rules unclear. Taking a step back from detailed discussions of whats happening when two combatants are grappling, perhaps it would be better to understand the game balance / mechanics behind the touch attack rules. Basically, you are required to make a touch attack roll as part of spell balance / game balance. In many cases, spells with touch attack don't allow saving throws or are otherwise more powerful because of the requirement to make an attack roll. If you're not making a touch attack roll for a touch spell, there has to be a damn good reason balance wise why this is not the case. Similar logic applies to other situations where touch attack rolls are necessary, e.g. the lich's touch mentioned above. In this particular case, i.e. when grappling, the rules specifically mention how to resolve attacks (and yes, a touch attack is a type of attack - it is not an unarmed strike, and therefore doesn't get the special ruling that applies to unarmed strikes). There is nothing ambiguous in this as far as I can see - perhaps you don't like the fact that 'touch attack' was not specifically mentioned, but as I mentioned, touch attacks are a subset of attacks in this context.
Ace_of_time 12-30-07, 07:33 PM	I really don't have a problem with the touch attack roll. It was mainly the grapple check I was having problems with at first. All I know is RotG says it works on contact and are already required to roll a touch attack to grapple. I can deal with a touch attacks even at -4. Don't see having to roll a grapple check to touch attacks. Seems like they would have said something anywhere about touch attacks during a grapple. Unless they thought they had coverd it already. Whuch happens more often then it should.
Ace_of_time 12-30-07, 07:42 PM	I don't understand the bold part. I am assuming that you are assuming that pinned means you are on the ground. I don't know how much martial arts you know, but you can immobolize(pin) someone from a standing position. If grappling meant you were automatically on the ground then you would have to spend a move action to stand up once the grappled was escaped or released. I am the one who said grapple checks DON'T mean you are one the ground. Don't try to make it sound like I said you are one the ground. I also never said anything about one grapple check equaling a pin. I was saying that IF you are pinned it does not automatically mean you are on the ground, but if you are on the ground your meaning of touch anything could make you discharge the spell if you are fade-down, and you hands are on the ground since you would not your face to hit the ground. Your meaning of touch would make people have to describe how they are holding the person so they don't get touched by the other person, and the player(not character) with the best knowledge of wrestling type holds would win in this descriptive contest unless D&D went through the trouble of making up grappling holds. To make things simple they just make you still have to make the touch attack, even in a grapple. I could ready an action to touch or better yet grapple the cleric since contact means touch according to your rules I get the spell benefits.No you can't ready an action to steal a heal spell unless the cleric is hold the charge on the heal spell. If the cleric decided to touch during the casting of the heal spell your grapple attempt would happen before the spell was cast. Unless you have that item I spoke of. As for the first part of your post. Nothing happens. He may have tried to pin you, but failed. You could be on your stomach, and he is cross your back. When you are making your attempt to escape you may be trying to turn around so you can fight him off. In your attempt to escape the pin you may be squirming enough so he can't pin you but that does not mean you touched him. Contact with someone's body does not discharge the spell. If in combat you HAVE to make the touch attack. If a DM went by your interpretation of touch anything, that you seem to be alone on, then he could say you body touched the ground assuming he has you on the ground, but the grappling rules never say anything about a takedown, it just implies some type of entanglement. If you want to houserule touch means contact in any shape or form and that discharges a touch spell then go ahead, but I really doubt that most of the board is wrong on a simple rule such as touch attack. I have given you examples on both this thread, and the other of how someone can grapple another person without being touched but you seem to want to ignore it. I have also posted the coup de grace example, and yet you have no answer as to why a rule would be posted for a helpless person, and not one for a person capable of defending themselves I also gave you the potential to steal a clerics cure spell, and asked why if that was how the spell worked, why the strategy has not been mentioned before. You never addressed that. Once again there is no auto-touch attack. I understand your point, but that is not how the rules work.I'm not house ruling anything it is WotC's stand that it works on contact with the target. Not Mine. Sorry. I'm just telling what my thoughts are on their ruling on it.
Ace_of_time 12-30-07, 07:54 PM	The first ruling you mention is a houserule, as it is directly contradicted by the following (taken from the grappling rules quoted above): "Cast a Spell You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. " I.e. grappling means you simply can't cast a spell with a somatic component. I prefer the RAW here, as it makes sense that in a grapple you don't have freedom to move in an unrestricted fashion. Also, per RAW, even a touch spell with no somatic components requires a concentration check (as well as the touch attack roll at -4, as resolution of whether you touch is a separate matter to whether you can actually cast the spell) To the OP, I'm really failing to see how you're finding these rules unclear. Taking a step back from detailed discussions of whats happening when two combatants are grappling, perhaps it would be better to understand the game balance / mechanics behind the touch attack rules. Basically, you are required to make a touch attack roll as part of spell balance / game balance. In many cases, spells with touch attack don't allow saving throws or are otherwise more powerful because of the requirement to make an attack roll. If you're not making a touch attack roll for a touch spell, there has to be a damn good reason balance wise why this is not the case. Similar logic applies to other situations where touch attack rolls are necessary, e.g. the lich's touch mentioned above. In this particular case, i.e. when grappling, the rules specifically mention how to resolve attacks (and yes, a touch attack is a type of attack - it is not an unarmed strike, and therefore doesn't get the special ruling that applies to unarmed strikes). There is nothing ambiguous in this as far as I can see - perhaps you don't like the fact that 'touch attack' was not specifically mentioned, but as I mentioned, touch attacks are a subset of attacks in this context.I think they were trying to say they allow them a grapple check to do the somatic components during a grapple unless yoyu had still spell feat or the like. I don't know about that ether. Think if armor give spell failuire for just wearing it don't see any way around losing it without still. But as long as it works for him. go for it.
MrCustomer 12-30-07, 11:16 PM	I really don't have a problem with the touch attack roll. It was mainly the grapple check I was having problems with at first. All I know is RotG says it works on contact and are already required to roll a touch attack to grapple. I can deal with a touch attacks even at -4. Don't see having to roll a grapple check to touch attacks. Seems like they would have said something anywhere about touch attacks during a grapple. Unless they thought they had coverd it already. Whuch happens more often then it should. Well, to grapple you must make a successful Touch Attack. If you were holding a charge you could make both attacks at the same time.
Elsydeon 12-31-07, 12:19 AM	I ready an action to touch my opponents hand when my opponent reaches out towards any of his allies. I just defeated all healing magic? Stop thinking about the in game how. Start thinking about how to BALANCE THE GAME, make it at least a LITTLE user friendly, and how to keep it from being boring. Grapple is complicated enough to confuse the inexperienced or uninformed, as you're showing here. Because the rules involving dice and the flavor text surrounding what a grapple is don't completely match up. Just accept that it's a game, nothing's perfect, and that maybe every single person on this board that has commented might have a clue (since everyone has opposed your side). If you REALLY want an answer, since you obviously won't trust us after two threads, send an e-mail to customer service. You can stubbornly argue with them for a couple of weeks too if you like.
deathbane 12-31-07, 12:28 AM	No you can't ready an action to steal a heal spell unless the cleric is hold the charge on the heal spell. If the cleric decided to touch during the casting of the heal spell your grapple attempt would happen before the spell was cast. Unless you have that item I spoke of. As for the first part of your post. I'm not house ruling anything it is WotC's stand that it works on contact with the target. Not Mine. Sorry. I'm to telling what my thoughts are on their ruling on it. I know you can't ready an action to steal a spell. My example was going according to your previous belief of any contact=touch.
Ace_of_time 01-01-08, 12:03 AM	I ready an action to touch my opponents hand when my opponent reaches out towards any of his allies. I just defeated all healing magic? Stop thinking about the in game how. Start thinking about how to BALANCE THE GAME, make it at least a LITTLE user friendly, and how to keep it from being boring. Grapple is complicated enough to confuse the inexperienced or uninformed, as you're showing here. Because the rules involving dice and the flavor text surrounding what a grapple is don't completely match up. Just accept that it's a game, nothing's perfect, and that maybe every single person on this board that has commented might have a clue (since everyone has opposed your side). If you REALLY want an answer, since you obviously won't trust us after two threads, send an e-mail to customer service. You can stubbornly argue with them for a couple of weeks too if you like. It is just a disscussion. I'm not arguing. I did that on another thread. As I said before this thread is so the other one can get back to the OP's theme.
Ace_of_time 01-01-08, 12:12 AM	I know you can't ready an action to steal a spell. My example was going according to your previous belief of any contact=touch.OK How about this one from the RAWs. Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.