Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tyrandor 01-13-08, 01:10 AM	Some of you might remember some of my post as a fairly clueless D&D player, that hasn't changed. What I'm wondering here now is... how easy is the game supposed to be? Now my group of players are pretty experience players. We've played roleplaying game for years. We've player table top strategy games as well as a lot of RTS. We're used to play together. The DM use maps for the fights, and my old Warhammer figurines have finally gotten some uses in over 5 years. hehe. And basically, our party of Fighter/Druid/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard has been pretty much wiping the floor with everything the DM sends our way. The only time we really got in trouble was when Hogoblins managed to score 2 critical hits, which took out the Fighter and Cleric (DM doesn't use a Screen, rolls are live and open, he really got 20, 18 and then 20, 19)... still, we won and had it not been for those lucky blows, odds are we would have destroyed them. Last game (our party is now all level 2), we fought mostly Carrion Crawler (Which from my understanding are level 3 creature?) as well as Hogoblins (l1), Ogres (l4) and an Hogoblin 'elite' (Made as a level 3 Fighter I believe)... same result. The DM is good natured about it, but I can't help but feel we're basically running circle around his monsters (and thus, him) strategy wise, and we beat them with little to no hassle because of that. Granted, it's somewhat illogical that a group of adventures who met only a few weeks ago are following coordinated plans of attacks and strategies as if they were trained troops... but are we supposed to play dumb in this case? Heck, after one fight, he even sent us another pack of monster, which was 'alerted by the noise'. Since we were spent, (lightly) wounded and in a bad position, this 2nd wave was actually challenging (And tons more fun then the other fights!)... during post-game talk, he admitted that he just throwed the second 'wave' to challenge us. That being said, the extra number of monster meant we got tons more xp (and thus hit level 3 a bit earlier). The DM is a good guy. He doesn't seem to mind, as long as we're having fun... but hmm... but how do you tell your DM that things might get boring if it doesn't become more challenging without him hiding a Beholder under your bed? >_>
Kouk 01-13-08, 01:48 AM	The DM probably is not used to the rules of the game. First of all, there are 5 of you, so you are stronger than the "average" party of 4 characters the CR system expects. Second, there are many faults with the current CR system, that it may take some time to learn on your own. For instance, humanoid NPCs with class levels tend to be on the very weak side regardless of what their CR says they are. Also, single monsters almost always go down incredibly fast because the PCs can gang up on them. It is usually better to use several slightly smaller creatures than one large creature. You also have to be sure the player character's don't have too much wealth for their level, and that the enemy characters do have enough wealth. If the PCs have high stats, then they are immediately stronger than the "average" party the CR system expects. A lot of a monster's "punch" comes from utilizing their abilities to the fullest, which may mean using some of the more complicated rules like terrain and Grappling. If the DM isn't using the monsters "correctly" then they are weaker than they should be. The DM has to know a lot of things about the monsters he uses and be familiar with the rules system. I can't really say more without knowing more specific information, such as the size of the groups you are facing, the level of the enemy organization, their gear, the environment, what your characters are built for, etc. Keep in mind though the first few levels are kind of strange in D&D, with very fast fights. Everyone has a low amount of HP. Don't be too concerned about the speed. Also, just make sure you are all using the rules correctly, calculating your attack and damage correctly.
Wheldrake 01-13-08, 02:05 AM	but how do you tell your DM that things might get boring if it doesn't become more challenging without him hiding a Beholder under your bed? >_> The single best way to make encounters more exciting is to use terrain to their advantage. If those hobgoblin archers are up on a ledge the PCs can't reach without wavering across an unstable rope bridge, that changes the encounter. If they have judiciously-placed traps that shape the battlefield, or a portcullis that falls at a stategic moment, that changes the encounter. If the PCs encounter the carrion crawlers in a situation where they have become separated, as in one of my recent adventures where 2 PCs were rescuing and interrogating a wounded adventurer chained in a cell, while 2 others were keeping watch on the corridor outside, and let themselves get a little too far away from their pals, then that changes the encounter. You've got spellcasters in your group, right? Maybe the monsters need their own spellcasters. A hobgoblin shaman, wizard or cleric will change the situation... if he can be positioned out of reach of your muscle long enough to be effective. Especially if he has a couple of cool scrolls to use on the players. The added bonus will be that it's going to be a lot more challenging and fun for the players to think around these obstacles, compared to a toe-to-toe fight. Even the DMG has a few pages devoted to this kind of spicing-up of encounters. Cheers, --- Wheldrake
Sinfire Titan 01-13-08, 02:31 AM	1: Is he only throwing one encounter per day at you? Because if he is, then that is why. You get each fight after a full day of rest/healing, and you can take anything on. Tell him to use 4 or more encounters each day that you have them, and you will be missing the good old days in no time. 2: Is he playing them smart, or cautious? If he is playing them smart, you should be getting Bull Rushed/Grappled/Tripped/ shot by arrows every freaking turn you try to do something. 3: He sounds like he is only using melee monsters. Tell him to look up Power Word Pain, make a Sorcerer, and throw it at you along with a few meleers. If that doesn't end in a TPK, then something went wrong, or you guys got balls lucky.
kelvinaw273 01-13-08, 03:39 AM	It's a really fine line to walk, because if the party use good tactics and strategy, thinks ahead and aren't unlucky with their rolls, then they can cakewalk an encounter that if they handled wrong, got caught flat-footed, or just got plain unlucky, they'd be TPK-fodder. Last session I played, we started with one player (our dwarf fighter/wizard) wandering off on his own to investigate an idea, ran into a nasty creature and the rest of the party rushed in piecemeal to save him. Result was, he died, and some of the rest of us took some damage. Next encounter we handled as a party, kept it together, supported one another and trashed a far harder encounter in less time. If you're all tabletop strategy players, then you are likely getting all your tactics right, covering your weaknesses, and minimizing chance. It's not surprising, therefore, that you are doing well. This is problematic for your DM as he has to face you with tougher encounters, and in this way he might accidentally wipe you out with a few lucky rolls as the foes you face get progressively harder. A better way is for him to use better tactics, but if the party are simply better than him at them that can be hard.
wizarddog 01-13-08, 04:08 PM	Give him some time to work out what is an appropriate combat challenge. One aspect he should look into is role playing challenges since you are pretty adept in combat. However, like the previous post said, you could have an easy time when you gang up on a creature or have less encounters in day. I'm sure if he sent eight Hobgoblins on you right now it would prove to be challenge. It would be CR of 4 and your ELC right now is 3.6. Especially if you engage five and have three peppering the wizard with long bow arrows. Those d8's start to add up. ;)
CCS 01-13-08, 04:36 PM	Forgive me, but you don't sound like you (or your DM) are experienced gamers. At least not tabletop/pen & paper RPG-wise. Because in real RPGs fighting the "monsters" - be they carrion crawlers, stormtroopers, 007 type villains, etc (whatever's normal for the system in question) is only 1/2 the game. The other 1/2 is composed of story elements that have nothing to do (much) with dice rolls. So you might breeze through fights yet still have incredibly "hard" games. And vise-versa. So it sounds like your simply playing D&D as a minitures combat game.... And if that's what you're doing/aiming for then your DM needs some more practice at it rules wise in order to challenge you.
tyrandor 01-13-08, 06:26 PM	I think he might be going easy on us, from reading you guys' posts. I just don't know if he's doing so on purpose or because he doesn't know how to challenge us without just crushing us. We average 2 fights per days (on days where we fights), we have yet to encounter an enemy spellcaster, etc. Still, right now we're dealing with fights that are pretty easy to win and feel rather unrewarding. :( I guess I'll talk to him about removing the kid's glove. Forgive me, but you don't sound like you (or your DM) are experienced gamers. At least not tabletop/pen & paper RPG-wise. Because in real RPGs fighting the "monsters" - be they carrion crawlers, stormtroopers, 007 type villains, etc (whatever's normal for the system in question) is only 1/2 the game. The other 1/2 is composed of story elements that have nothing to do (much) with dice rolls. So you might breeze through fights yet still have incredibly "hard" games. And vise-versa. Despite saying 'forgive me', your post was pretty condescending and based all around the assumption that because I find the battle the DM is throwing at us easy (Note that I have not said anything at all about the intrigues or role-playing opportunity he created!), then all we must do is battle. I'm honestly baffled at how you came at that conclusion. It honestly doesn't even make any logical sense. Which proves the old adage, 'When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me'. Even the most rock solid plot and gut wrenching role-play situation won't make up for the fact that super easy fights get boring and end up feeling like they slow down the game play rather then add to it.
Etarnon 01-14-08, 03:01 AM	a fairly clueless D&D player, that hasn't changed. So become un-clueless. Gut wrenching roleplay is not the focus, nor is or should be gut wrenching combat. It's a mix. I'm honestly baffled at how you came at that conclusion. Because you didn't talk about the roleplay. You talked about how your player group comes from Warhammer, wargames, and FPS games. You said as to how you worked well as a unit, even though in character, it doesn't make much sense. Someone focused on the character, however, would have explained it. Your style isn't wrong, but re-read the CCS post. So it sounds like your simply playing D&D as a minitures combat game.... And if that's what you're doing/aiming for then your DM needs some more practice at it rules wise in order to challenge you. Because if you are playing it as a mini's game you got that down, and your DM doesn't. Because you are in fact, here, saying it is too easy...because the combat is easy. Nothing much was said about Roleplay. Your end solution is: Point blank, tell your DM you need more combats, more frequently, per day. Good luck.
kelvinaw273 01-14-08, 03:58 AM	Some DMs do this at very low level so that you can gain sufficient experience to ensure a freak hit doesn't kill you outright, then throw the more challenging encounters at you. What's your average party level?
Dherki 01-14-08, 04:14 AM	At low levels the difference between what can kill you and what does not challenge you is very slim. Personally, I find it better to err on the side of easy rather than risk a TPK every two sessions. With open rolls it gets even harder since you cannot fudge stuff in favor of players when things turn ugly. Usually I tend to hold back for the first 5 or so levels and then start getting progressively more deadly once resurrection magic becomes more commonplace.
tyrandor 01-14-08, 01:21 PM	So become un-clueless. Gut wrenching roleplay is not the focus, nor is or should be gut wrenching combat. It's a mix. I'm aware, my concern here, is that the combats are so far, fairly unchallenging. Beside, by clueless I refer more to the fact that we have very little books, that the DM doesn't allow us to read the DM and MM books and that I certainly don't know off the top of my head what feats need to be taken to make what ability deal 50 damage in 1 hit. Last time I played D&D was 15 years ago, whatever memory I have of the monster is diluted by time and I honestly don't know what abilities and powers (aside from the obvious) monsters will use against us. I don't mind, it's refreshing to be playing in the gaming system you don't know by heart... but it also explain why after being freaked out by Carrion Crawlers charging at you (The DM's description was quite vivid), when you kill them, your reaction is "They looked a lot scarier then they were..." Because you didn't talk about the roleplay. You talked about how your player group comes from Warhammer, wargames, and FPS games. You said as to how you worked well as a unit, even though in character, it doesn't make much sense. Someone focused on the character, however, would have explained it. Your style isn't wrong, but re-read the CCS post. I also said we played years of rpg, but I guess that got skipped. I wasn't aware I needed to give my resume everytime I asked for advice :P. And what makes me say it makes no logical sense is that the reason why I didn't speak about the rp/intrigues, is because those are going just fine. The DM is pretty good about making his npc fleshed out and we're slowly settling into the intrigues and realising not everything as it seems. It's all good. I must wonder however... when someone complains about the commute to their job being too long and boring... do you two automatically assume their have no wife? After all, he didn't talk about her - he can't have one, right? :uh-huh: I do suppose that when I said "What I'm wondering here now is... how easy is the game supposed to be?", this could have been misleading. Combat is an inherent part of D&D and a big part of what makes the challenge of the game. Regardless, I should have used a different word...I guess some of the blames come to me for assuming (there it is again) that what I was trying to say was obvious. Still, I can assure you we're role-playing plenty with one of our earlier session not even having a 'fight' in there (I guess you'll assume we spent the evening staring at the wall?). Our characters have backstories, quirks and personalities. The DM is doing a very good job at making all his NPC (from the lowly errand boy to the Knight that's bossing us around) feel real. The roleplaying part is the high point of this campaign. Some DMs do this at very low level so that you can gain sufficient experience to ensure a freak hit doesn't kill you outright, then throw the more challenging encounters at you. What's your average party level? A messly 3 right now. What prompted this post however, is that now the party finally got access to level 2 Magic... We have 3 magic users in there (Druid, Wizard, Priest), so between us that is a lot of new possibilities... which made me worry. I did speak to my DM over MSN, and he told me he knew the fights were easy now but that they would ramp up in difficulty very soon. Which made me happy. :D
Rederik 01-14-08, 01:36 PM	You should come and play in my game I guess... One of my players just said the other day "every combat shouldn't come to within a hp of losing." My opinion is if the characters (at least one) isn't afraid for their life each and every combat, then I am not doing something right.
NordicBirch 01-14-08, 04:03 PM	We average 2 fights per days (on days where we fights), we have yet to encounter an enemy spellcaster, etc. As has already been suggested, "there's your problem". The game is set to balance at 4 encounters a day and spellcasters are the most powerful thing in the game. So the GM is being extremely lenient to your group. Now, one can of course make it challenging without casting enemies and with 2 encounters but it'll take some doing.
Slimgauge 01-14-08, 05:23 PM	One of my players just said the other day "every combat shouldn't come to within a hp of losing." My opinion is if the characters (at least one) isn't afraid for their life each and every combat, then I am not doing something right. He's right. All it takes is the inevitable string of bad luck and he's toast. Save the close shaves for the epic boss fights.
tyrandor 01-14-08, 05:27 PM	You should come and play in my game I guess... One of my players just said the other day "every combat shouldn't come to within a hp of losing." My opinion is if the characters (at least one) isn't afraid for their life each and every I actually agree with you. Fights are supposed to be brutal, scary and violent. What's the point of playing through an encounter if you're not even worried and you always end up the winner with barely a scratch? The game shouldn't become like Final Fantasy or other videogame, where you're already calculating the xp amount of a fight and how many more you've got to do for the next level... they should be exciting and scary. While I don't want the DM to be killing us left and right... fights should be hard enough to make you feel like winning is an accomplishment, rather then inevitable.
Kala2000 01-15-08, 12:43 PM	What's the point of playing through an encounter if you're not even worried and you always end up the winner with barely a scratch? The game shouldn't become like Final Fantasy or other videogame, where you're already calculating the xp amount of a fight and how many more you've got to do for the next level... they should be exciting and scary. I don't think the encounters should always be perfectly balanced to the players' needs. But the key phrase here is playing through. Playing through countless of too easy encounters just takes too much time so most of them should be taken care of using quicker methods. And the part about FF etc, the usual encounter method does exactly this. Players know that their DM is going to throw decently challenging encounters at them which yield 1/4 of an experience level so they will be leveling up in 3..2..1 encounters. The key to a dynamic and thrilling adventure/campaign is using encounters of varied levels. The easy encounters make the PCs feel strong as they often are in the higher levels. This usually never happens because the lowliest goblins have enough class levels to present a challenge. The fittingly challenging encounters pit up the PCs against something worth their while and forces them plan/make strategies/get lucky etc. Then there should also be locations/areas/ unforced/forced encounters with very powerful beings/creatures/NPCs which give PCs something to fear and something to thrive for ("Cant wait till we level up four times and get that magical sword so we can go beat that guys' ass!") (can I use the word ass on the forums?). No blatantly obvious railroading allowed here though. The tricky part is how the PCs are able to determine their opponents' strength with the 3.x setting when even the lowliest goblins can simply advance 10 fighter levels vs a lvl 10 party when needed. Using the older way of keeping the low level critters low level and once PCs hit med levels start using the medium critters seems alright and makes it clearer what sort of opposition they are facing and how to react. Mind all the typoes and bad grammar I feel so tired now, cant really focus :)
Thubby 01-15-08, 03:00 PM	it's a matter of DM experience, just let him know the encounters are a little too easy, and give him time to adjust. it'll take time, but he'll get there.
Dunsel 01-16-08, 01:04 PM	What I'm wondering here now is... how easy is the game supposed to be? The game is as easy as the DM and the players make it. Not every encounter is supposed to knock you to your knees. If the DM is even half way experienced, you will have a blend of easy and difficult encounters. My ratio is 6/1. Most DMs take it easy until 4th or 5th level and then lower the boom. The LAST thing you want to do is tell your DM the encounters were easy! If the monsters are not using strategy, that is up to the DM. Maybe he will change later. Maybe not. If he is experienced, he should gradually make the battles harder. He also may just not like to kill PCs. He could be a softball DM. Those are fun for a while, but like you said, they get boring. IMO he should not roll in front of the players. You know too much about the monsters and maybe this is taking some of the suspense away from the battles for you. If he hides his rolls, he can then build up the battle. Bottom line, I would stick it out for a little while longer and see what happens.
weepingminotaur 01-16-08, 05:16 PM	Too many easy battles, and players get bored and sloppy and the game is not a challenge. Too many overpowered battles and your players become paranoid, afraid to venture anywhere without taking hours preparing a plan of attack, and frustrated, because they don't feel like the heroes D&D is supposed to allow PCs to be. It's a fine balance. Learning it takes time (in my case, it took at least two, possibly three, years). And when you discover this balance, it also takes time to apply it effectively and fairly. In response to easy encounters, I used to spend lots of time devising overpowering encounters to make damn sure that the players would be in for a fight. But that just led to near-TPKs. Eventually, it was my own improvement as a DM that helped me get on track. I became a better tactician when the monsters' INT called for it. I started meticulously tracking my PCs abilities, strengths, and weaknesses so I wasn't unpleasantly surprised during combat. I became comfortable enough with certain special attack rules to use them on the fly, instead of defaulting to an endless sequence of 'take 5-foot step and attack' actions because I was too frazzled to think of anything else. I discovered that terrain and environment could influence an encounter's difficulty without leading to a TPK. What I'm saying is: be patient with your DM. Voice your criticism without rancor but give him time to grow into his role. Tell him to start reading the DM section of these forums because he'll learn a lot! :) I know I have.
solbergb 01-16-08, 05:42 PM	We didn't have a lot of issues with this when we started 3.x, but my gaming group is used to complex tactical systems (decades of playing Champions, plus more cinematic games like Feng Shui etc) If you're not used to a game with a lot of options, it can take a while for both GM and players to get the mix right. Our first GM underestimated the fragility of low level characters and we had several near TPK's before he got his feet under it. He was then ok until about level 12, where the complexity of high level play made it work instead of fun for him and the game died. (since then we've found more folks to play D&D with...but that was my first 3.0 experience in a campaign lasting a couple years)