How far is too far? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How far is too far? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Super Guy
05-09-04, 12:31 PM As a player who is built around thievery, I want to know what others think about how far is too far. Using a prestige class that my DM made (and it's quite balanced, btw. I've even showed it on the boards before and people said it was balanced) I am a very good thief. Now, with high ranks (13th level) as well as bonuses to search, open lock, disable device, hide, move silently, etc... and the ability to cast Permanency: Arcane Sights through a scroll, and a good escape plan in case something goes wrong some time, is it still fair for me to constantly steal?

I think it's completely fair, personally- whereas my party will be good at fighting, I won't. And whereas they won't be good at stealing, I will. So I don't really see a problem, but I want to know how far you guys think I should go with this. If you're a DM, would you let me get away with it if I could?
Thorak
05-09-04, 12:40 PM I don't see any possible reason for that character to have problems, beyond the typical getting-caught-red-handed kind.

That said, the moment you start stealing from your party, as the DM I wouldn't stop them if they tied you to a tree, stripped you naked, piled some raw meat at your feat to attract predators, and left you there.
Aetherine
05-09-04, 12:42 PM I think it's completely fair, personally- whereas my party will be good at fighting, I won't. And whereas they won't be good at stealing, I will

Sounds like someone's been reading a bit of 8-Bit Theater..
Super Guy
05-09-04, 12:57 PM 8-Bit? Nah. It went down for me about half a year ago or more and I lost the groove. Someday I'll re-read it all from the start.

=P

Edit: I wouldn't steal from the party, because I know that the DM will definitely be displeased with me. That's not to say that I'll share the riches that I find without the party, it's just that I'll share the riches that I find with the party.
sculyblast
05-09-04, 02:33 PM Well, as A higher level thieve I would guess your character would view his ranks too high for ordanairy stealing...

I mean...

as a high level thief you will quit the pickpocketing on the market and the breaking in in random houses.

he would do more High level thieve things, like stealing the king's orb of regime, robbing an ancient relic or stealing magic items from the WizardCouncil

(see Council of archmages in my sig :P)

just a few hints I would give my fellow players

sculy
Eldren
05-09-04, 02:53 PM Morality (i.e., "wrong" or "right") is purely an issue of alignment. Rogues who are thieves can become legendary burglars. Just look at the Perfect Wight prestige class from the Epic Level Handbook: That prestige class is there for the thief who wants to be the ultimate thief.

If your character is oriented along the lines of being a thief, then that PC should continue doing what he/she enjoys. Just be aware that you may eventually get caught, and then you're going to have to figure out some way to survive and get away. But that's the life of a thief: You take the big risks, and get the big rewards.

If you've perfected the character through feat choices, skill point allocations and prestige class levels, don't feel bad about using those abilities. You took the time and spent the resources to get those abilities, so you might as well use them. Don't steal from your party members; it's a bad idea, and the players rarely appreciate it, just like their PCs wouldn't. Otherwise, unless you have a Paladin in the party watching you like a hawk, do what your character would do. The party will appreciate your abilities, and might, at some point, appreciate the increased cash flow. :devil:
Ripjak
05-09-04, 09:45 PM my 2 ep here on this.

Sure there is no problems with you being the best at obtaining stuff as that is the way that the class is geared. However there is something I feel needs to be said about finding/obtaining items/money/stuff without the party's knowledge.

You say it yourself - the character isn't good at the fighting parts but good at thieving however you have no compunctions about not sharing the booty that you obtain. The problem is that whilst you aren't the best fighter you rely on the good fighters for your own & the party's good but don't seem to put it the other way when coming to obtaining items.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that players may get mightily miffed that they are using their characters abilities for the sake of the party but you are using your abilities for the sake of yourself.

Be aware that this can cause some dissension in the ranks and I've even seen it turn the characters (& players) against the rogues in the group.

Myself, I don't really give a damn but in my time GM'ing & playing I've seen it screw many a game up big time.
Super Guy
05-10-04, 12:06 AM You're right- I was thinking that they wouldn't know about the stuff I was getting when their characters weren't around, but now I realize they'll know out of character. So, while they couldn't metagame, they could be annoyed with me outside of game, which is worse. Grr...stupid party members...
Bedevere
05-10-04, 05:07 PM Umm.... How is keeping what you find on your own harming the party?

If the fighter is attacked by someone with a large amount of money, and kills them single handed, while the rest of you are all down the road shopping, do you all ask for a fair share? No. The fighter dealt with the threat all by himself, and earned the reward all by himself. The money is all his.

Likewise, if you pick someones pocket, you keep the money you find in it. You made the action, you took the risk, you take the reward. No other PC's were involved, so they have no reason to expect a part of the profits.

However, when you get back together, to explore the dungeon, the fighter kills the orcs, the rogue clears the traps and picks the locks, the cleric heals, and the wizard magic missiles. Everybody plays their part, and everyone can expect their fair share of the reward.
pres_man
05-10-04, 05:31 PM Likewise, if you pick someones pocket, you keep the money you find in it. You made the action, you took the risk, you take the reward. No other PC's were involved, so they have no reason to expect a part of the profits.

Unfortunately this is not the case in most circumstances. Should the rogue get caught, then the rest of the party usually ends up getting involved. They may try to rescue/break out the rogue, they might be arrested since they are cohorts of the rogue, etc. Each character is not an island upon themselves, their actions have effects on the other players.
Super Guy
05-10-04, 09:17 PM Ah, the cops'll never have anything on me- that part I'm not worried about. I figure, if I can constantly have Nystuul's Nonmagic Aura on a portable hole which I tie up and swallow with about everything I need in it, then bam, I'm set. Spit it up when I'm in jail and I'm out, unless they have someone always over your shoulder, which is quite ridiculous and my DM, while fairly strict on not powering us up too much, would not be so cheezy.

Yup, I know, it's this attitude of invincibility that'll get me killed.
Iron Chef Vastrox
05-10-04, 11:00 PM Why would you still settle for breaking and entering?

Set up the Big Ones; think Ocean's 11, The Rock, Thomas Crowne Affair, that sort of thing.

You're a Master Thief. Start pulling off Master Jobs.
Vanigo
05-10-04, 11:31 PM Originally posted by Bedevere
If the fighter is attacked by someone with a large amount of money, and kills them single handed, while the rest of you are all down the road shopping, do you all ask for a fair share? Yes. He might not give it to me, but I'm sure as heck going to ask. And yes, if I were the fighter, I would split the money with the party. There are three reasons for this:
First, it helps the party, which indirectly helps me. A well-equipped party is much better at watching my back than an underequipped one.
Secondly, it improves party relations, making it less likely that I'll be killed in the middle of the night by the guy who was supposed to be on watch.
Thirdly, I figure the only reason I killed him single-handedly is because I won initiative and killed him in the first round. No shame in not having a chance to help.

Now, if I killed him single-handedly because the rest of the party was just sitting on their hands, I'd be inclined to keep the money. But honestly, who does that? Not only does it get the fighter ticked, but you probably won't get any experience. Plus, there's a much greater chance of the fighter getting killed, and that's not good for anyone. Only time I saw anything like that happen was when I was in the air fighting two white dragons (and kicking their asses, incidentally), and no one else had any way of flying. One guy did some halfway-decent damage with a bow, but everyone else pretty much stood there and watched.
(Stupidly, everyone got full experience. I'm not angry that the guy who provided ground fire got experience. I'm not too angry about the guy who hid himself in the snow getting experience. I'm not even that mad about the guys who just stood there helplessly. But the guy who made a snowman I took issue with.)
Nimrud
05-11-04, 12:44 AM I think most people here have missed this: What is the in-character reason for a thief to share his loot with "party members"?

The answer to that question really depends on why the party got together. If they are all members of the same thieves' guild for example, then yes, a rogue would probably have to share loot with the guild. If they were together because of some mission, which has nothing to do with the rogue's "side-line", then why would the rogue share his ill-gotten gains?

In fact, if he does share his loot, isn't he admitting to being a thief? Why would a rogue advertise his activities, even to his own "party"?

If there is no in-character reason for the rogue to share stolen loot, then to force him to do so because "it's only fair" would be meta-gaming.
Bedevere
05-11-04, 04:49 AM People seem to have missed my previous point completely. I did not say anything about a fighter getting a solo kill due to going first and doing enough damage, I said about the fighter getting the solo kill because he was the only one there

What possible reason can you think of in game or out to justify the fighter meeting up with you all, and saying 'I killed an assassin, he had a thousand gold on him. Heres your 250.'

There is no reason at all. he earned it, by facing the risk of death himself, just as a rogue who sneaks off at night to rob someones house faces the traps, the armed guards, angry servants/owners, and the risk of being captured and arrested.

Sure, the party might end up bailing him out if he is arrested, but then the rogue owes the party. If the fighter had died, the party might have found his body and had him raised. This does not mean they have any right to the fighters money, though. It just means that in that situation, the fighter could reasonably be expected to repay the party for the expense of the spell.

Anyway. To sum up: Solo adventure = solo reward. group adventure = group reward.
Bjorn the Wanderer
05-11-04, 07:52 AM I presently play a bard and often end up with a lot of extra moneythat the party doesn't see. You don't have to give them a share of it too make them happy but you have to think that if you have all this extra cash your going to be quite a bit more powerful then the rest of the party due to all the added cash being converted into magic items. If you want to make the players happy and have it make sense in game the occationa gift to a fellow party member to help bring them up to your level (its not going to hurt your pocket book to much) is always a good way of sharing the loot without "sharing the loot". You have to figure that anthing you give the party fighter , mage, cleric, whatever is going to help you live in the long run as they run interference for you on the party adventure.

Give them something to keep things balanced. Your character still gets the thrill out of completing the job and with you too much metagaming your keeping your fellow players happy as well.

Later,
Bjorn
Xychotic
05-11-04, 02:44 PM Bedevere has a really good point. Let me take it just a little further. This fighter is about a mile away from the party, behind them on the road. (He had to make an important meeting and told the party to go on ahead.)

Now, a savvy assassin realizes that he's gonna be playing catch up with the rest of his crew. Now's his chance to take out the fighter.

The fighter is confronted by the assassin and prevails. The party had absolutely no involvement in the encounter. Do they get XP? No. They did not earn any of the rewards that the fighter did. Sure, he might hand over some loot if he feels like it, but that's entirely his perogative.

By extension, the rogue that scouts ahead of the party and stumbles across an emerald in a trapped room. it's a big gem, and the party is a few minutes away, especially since that oaf of a fighter didn't notice the note that told them to be quiet when walking past that third door.

So, the rogue goes ahead and risks his hide. He tries to disable the traps, and get the loot. And he does so. Is the DM obligated to give the rest of the party a share of the trap XP? Is the rogue obligated to give up part of the gold value of the gem? Of course not. Now, he might decide to share, and people will like him for it. He might decide to keep it to himself, and players might grumble, but they cannot truly and verifiably claim that they actually had a fair share of that.

The only way to enforce that is to write up a contract before any given excursion. Everyone in the party grabs and carries what they can, when they get to the town, they divvy the rewards evenly. That is the unspoken contract preached by the non-rogues. But I don't think the fighter would be very pleased if the rogue decided he wanted the longsword that he just killed a rabid assassin for.

Simply put, do what your rogue would do. Act within his intelligence. Weigh the risks and rewards. Is it better to hoard a bunch of loot for personal gain, or might there be a greater reward by disseminating wealth among the party to increase their wealth gaining potential in the future? And, will you survive to see this future if you give up your loot?
Super Guy
05-11-04, 08:26 PM Hey, don't worry, soon I'll shoot for the big stuff. See my other topic if you want to help me out!
[/shameless advertisement]

=P
pres_man
05-11-04, 10:08 PM Originally posted by Bedevere
Anyway. To sum up: Solo adventure = solo reward. group adventure = group reward.

And D&D is suppose to be what?...

If the DM and a player want to do a bunch of solo missions, that's fine and dandy, but don't waste game time doing it and then say the rest of the party doesn't get a share of the experience or wealth.

The really only time something like this came up, the sorcerer went flying around alone at night and found some traps in the forest and overcame them. The DM was gong to give that player some extra experience since his character was the only one around at the time. So I spoke up and said, "I think I'm going to start wandering off alone also during games, please have stuff set up for me also." The DM being the intelligent person he was quickly realized that it was going to be a pain in the rump to do stuff like that for everybody and split the xp between the whole party.

Running around by yourself is hmmm... how can I say this politely... why bother, its stupid! Stupid actions should not be rewarded.

I should say that most of the time I believe experience should be split between all the players sitting at the table at the time. The only exceptions is if a player's character is doing something really stupid and unhelpful. Like the party is being attacked and he is hiding in a tree laughing at the party. No xp for that behaviour since it is stupid and stupid behaviour should not be rewarded.
Super Guy
05-11-04, 10:26 PM I realize that, so I'm hoping my DM will be able to hold a few private sessions with me if I have a particular 'big hit' in mind, so that I don't bore others to death. Robbing a high powered mage guild will not go by fast- not unless I get killed in there. The question of experience is hard, though. Does he give me no experience and let me get lots of gold? That's overpowering. Does he give me, and only me, experience to counter the gold? I'd be getting a lot of it, so I don't think the party would be pleased. Or does he give the entire party experience and ask that I please share? I wouldn't mind sharing (but keeping the largest share for myself), because it's more of a compromise. I get to do my thing, but no one is mad.
Xychotic
05-12-04, 11:02 AM I know about solo missions, and I rather enjoy them. And, though I agree with pres-man in that we should not reward stupidity, his argument... well... you know.

The proper thing to do at this time is to make a "group solo mission." This means that the DM prepares a bunch of things that engage every player at the approximate same time. The DM cuts between scenes like a TV show.

So, while you're stealing from the mage guild, the fighter is looking for the swordmaster that will teach him, the wizard is being a foil for you, and the cleric is going on a short pilgrimage.

This is not all that hard. It takes about 15 minutes per player, and the DM can cycle through the players, cutting the scene when the player needs think time, or it just reached a crescendo.
Impecunious_Mortal
05-13-04, 08:06 PM If your using your rogue as a theif then rip stuff off all the time.
Solo missions are great just don't wake the king while your stealing the queens heart(tehehe).
I was in a campain where all the PC's had families homes and Jobs outside the realm of dungeon crawling.My earnings as a farmer wouldn't be party money.Earnings while being a theif also shouldn't be party money.
If they truely metagame and start crabbing about a few majic trinkets you palmed then cut them in for a share.After that either make them go out and steal you some free loot or kill them all in their sleep and take ALL the money.
A truely bigger problem than the party wanting a cut is running into the authorities rogues, or much, much worse the master of the local thieves guild .

Easy fix steal the fighters magic weapon replace it will a normal one.After the first encounter where the fighter realizes his weapon is wrong go up to them and tell them you'll leave their stuff alone and they better leave yours(all that stuff that has a way of falling off the back of a truck) alone.
Vanigo
05-14-04, 01:31 AM Originally posted by Impecunious_Mortal
Easy fix steal the fighters magic weapon replace it will a normal one.After the first encounter where the fighter realizes his weapon is wrong go up to them and tell them you'll leave their stuff alone and they better leave yours(all that stuff that has a way of falling off the back of a truck) alone. That sounds like a superb way to get yourself killed. If you're going to screw with your party members, never, ever, admit it in character. They will kill you. If you keep it secret from their characters - well, they'll probably eventually find out and kill you anyway, but it'll take longer.
Wizard
05-14-04, 01:44 AM Sure. Steal the fighter's weapon. May I ask what kind of battle-hardened veteran EVER goes about unarmed? Or at least with an extremely intimate knowledge of how he can BECOME armed in no time?

Besides, you do that, the real smack-down of the party (yours truly, or one of those sorcerer charlatans) will teach you a lesson real fast.
Impecunious_Mortal
05-14-04, 11:23 AM Think of it in the real world.A true theif to appease his itch or need for some trinket will rip off their own parents.So why would a theif(ingame) not think of this all the time(acted upon or not).

We are talking about a theif not a rogue,a diplomat, a pointman,or the parties locksmith.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Super Guy 05-09-04, 12:31 PM	As a player who is built around thievery, I want to know what others think about how far is too far. Using a prestige class that my DM made (and it's quite balanced, btw. I've even showed it on the boards before and people said it was balanced) I am a very good thief. Now, with high ranks (13th level) as well as bonuses to search, open lock, disable device, hide, move silently, etc... and the ability to cast Permanency: Arcane Sights through a scroll, and a good escape plan in case something goes wrong some time, is it still fair for me to constantly steal? I think it's completely fair, personally- whereas my party will be good at fighting, I won't. And whereas they won't be good at stealing, I will. So I don't really see a problem, but I want to know how far you guys think I should go with this. If you're a DM, would you let me get away with it if I could?
Thorak 05-09-04, 12:40 PM	I don't see any possible reason for that character to have problems, beyond the typical getting-caught-red-handed kind. That said, the moment you start stealing from your party, as the DM I wouldn't stop them if they tied you to a tree, stripped you naked, piled some raw meat at your feat to attract predators, and left you there.
Aetherine 05-09-04, 12:42 PM	I think it's completely fair, personally- whereas my party will be good at fighting, I won't. And whereas they won't be good at stealing, I will Sounds like someone's been reading a bit of 8-Bit Theater..
Super Guy 05-09-04, 12:57 PM	8-Bit? Nah. It went down for me about half a year ago or more and I lost the groove. Someday I'll re-read it all from the start. =P Edit: I wouldn't steal from the party, because I know that the DM will definitely be displeased with me. That's not to say that I'll share the riches that I find without the party, it's just that I'll share the riches that I find with the party.
sculyblast 05-09-04, 02:33 PM	Well, as A higher level thieve I would guess your character would view his ranks too high for ordanairy stealing... I mean... as a high level thief you will quit the pickpocketing on the market and the breaking in in random houses. he would do more High level thieve things, like stealing the king's orb of regime, robbing an ancient relic or stealing magic items from the WizardCouncil (see Council of archmages in my sig :P) just a few hints I would give my fellow players sculy
Eldren 05-09-04, 02:53 PM	Morality (i.e., "wrong" or "right") is purely an issue of alignment. Rogues who are thieves can become legendary burglars. Just look at the Perfect Wight prestige class from the Epic Level Handbook: That prestige class is there for the thief who wants to be the ultimate thief. If your character is oriented along the lines of being a thief, then that PC should continue doing what he/she enjoys. Just be aware that you may eventually get caught, and then you're going to have to figure out some way to survive and get away. But that's the life of a thief: You take the big risks, and get the big rewards. If you've perfected the character through feat choices, skill point allocations and prestige class levels, don't feel bad about using those abilities. You took the time and spent the resources to get those abilities, so you might as well use them. Don't steal from your party members; it's a bad idea, and the players rarely appreciate it, just like their PCs wouldn't. Otherwise, unless you have a Paladin in the party watching you like a hawk, do what your character would do. The party will appreciate your abilities, and might, at some point, appreciate the increased cash flow. :devil:
Ripjak 05-09-04, 09:45 PM	my 2 ep here on this. Sure there is no problems with you being the best at obtaining stuff as that is the way that the class is geared. However there is something I feel needs to be said about finding/obtaining items/money/stuff without the party's knowledge. You say it yourself - the character isn't good at the fighting parts but good at thieving however you have no compunctions about not sharing the booty that you obtain. The problem is that whilst you aren't the best fighter you rely on the good fighters for your own & the party's good but don't seem to put it the other way when coming to obtaining items. I guess what I'm trying to say is that players may get mightily miffed that they are using their characters abilities for the sake of the party but you are using your abilities for the sake of yourself. Be aware that this can cause some dissension in the ranks and I've even seen it turn the characters (& players) against the rogues in the group. Myself, I don't really give a damn but in my time GM'ing & playing I've seen it screw many a game up big time.
Super Guy 05-10-04, 12:06 AM	You're right- I was thinking that they wouldn't know about the stuff I was getting when their characters weren't around, but now I realize they'll know out of character. So, while they couldn't metagame, they could be annoyed with me outside of game, which is worse. Grr...stupid party members...
Bedevere 05-10-04, 05:07 PM	Umm.... How is keeping what you find on your own harming the party? If the fighter is attacked by someone with a large amount of money, and kills them single handed, while the rest of you are all down the road shopping, do you all ask for a fair share? No. The fighter dealt with the threat all by himself, and earned the reward all by himself. The money is all his. Likewise, if you pick someones pocket, you keep the money you find in it. You made the action, you took the risk, you take the reward. No other PC's were involved, so they have no reason to expect a part of the profits. However, when you get back together, to explore the dungeon, the fighter kills the orcs, the rogue clears the traps and picks the locks, the cleric heals, and the wizard magic missiles. Everybody plays their part, and everyone can expect their fair share of the reward.
pres_man 05-10-04, 05:31 PM	Likewise, if you pick someones pocket, you keep the money you find in it. You made the action, you took the risk, you take the reward. No other PC's were involved, so they have no reason to expect a part of the profits. Unfortunately this is not the case in most circumstances. Should the rogue get caught, then the rest of the party usually ends up getting involved. They may try to rescue/break out the rogue, they might be arrested since they are cohorts of the rogue, etc. Each character is not an island upon themselves, their actions have effects on the other players.
Super Guy 05-10-04, 09:17 PM	Ah, the cops'll never have anything on me- that part I'm not worried about. I figure, if I can constantly have Nystuul's Nonmagic Aura on a portable hole which I tie up and swallow with about everything I need in it, then bam, I'm set. Spit it up when I'm in jail and I'm out, unless they have someone always over your shoulder, which is quite ridiculous and my DM, while fairly strict on not powering us up too much, would not be so cheezy. Yup, I know, it's this attitude of invincibility that'll get me killed.
Iron Chef Vastrox 05-10-04, 11:00 PM	Why would you still settle for breaking and entering? Set up the Big Ones; think Ocean's 11, The Rock, Thomas Crowne Affair, that sort of thing. You're a Master Thief. Start pulling off Master Jobs.
Vanigo 05-10-04, 11:31 PM	Originally posted by Bedevere If the fighter is attacked by someone with a large amount of money, and kills them single handed, while the rest of you are all down the road shopping, do you all ask for a fair share? Yes. He might not give it to me, but I'm sure as heck going to ask. And yes, if I were the fighter, I would split the money with the party. There are three reasons for this: First, it helps the party, which indirectly helps me. A well-equipped party is much better at watching my back than an underequipped one. Secondly, it improves party relations, making it less likely that I'll be killed in the middle of the night by the guy who was supposed to be on watch. Thirdly, I figure the only reason I killed him single-handedly is because I won initiative and killed him in the first round. No shame in not having a chance to help. Now, if I killed him single-handedly because the rest of the party was just sitting on their hands, I'd be inclined to keep the money. But honestly, who does that? Not only does it get the fighter ticked, but you probably won't get any experience. Plus, there's a much greater chance of the fighter getting killed, and that's not good for anyone. Only time I saw anything like that happen was when I was in the air fighting two white dragons (and kicking their asses, incidentally), and no one else had any way of flying. One guy did some halfway-decent damage with a bow, but everyone else pretty much stood there and watched. (Stupidly, everyone got full experience. I'm not angry that the guy who provided ground fire got experience. I'm not too angry about the guy who hid himself in the snow getting experience. I'm not even that mad about the guys who just stood there helplessly. But the guy who made a snowman I took issue with.)
Nimrud 05-11-04, 12:44 AM	I think most people here have missed this: What is the in-character reason for a thief to share his loot with "party members"? The answer to that question really depends on why the party got together. If they are all members of the same thieves' guild for example, then yes, a rogue would probably have to share loot with the guild. If they were together because of some mission, which has nothing to do with the rogue's "side-line", then why would the rogue share his ill-gotten gains? In fact, if he does share his loot, isn't he admitting to being a thief? Why would a rogue advertise his activities, even to his own "party"? If there is no in-character reason for the rogue to share stolen loot, then to force him to do so because "it's only fair" would be meta-gaming.
Bedevere 05-11-04, 04:49 AM	People seem to have missed my previous point completely. I did not say anything about a fighter getting a solo kill due to going first and doing enough damage, I said about the fighter getting the solo kill because he was the only one there What possible reason can you think of in game or out to justify the fighter meeting up with you all, and saying 'I killed an assassin, he had a thousand gold on him. Heres your 250.' There is no reason at all. he earned it, by facing the risk of death himself, just as a rogue who sneaks off at night to rob someones house faces the traps, the armed guards, angry servants/owners, and the risk of being captured and arrested. Sure, the party might end up bailing him out if he is arrested, but then the rogue owes the party. If the fighter had died, the party might have found his body and had him raised. This does not mean they have any right to the fighters money, though. It just means that in that situation, the fighter could reasonably be expected to repay the party for the expense of the spell. Anyway. To sum up: Solo adventure = solo reward. group adventure = group reward.
Bjorn the Wanderer 05-11-04, 07:52 AM	I presently play a bard and often end up with a lot of extra moneythat the party doesn't see. You don't have to give them a share of it too make them happy but you have to think that if you have all this extra cash your going to be quite a bit more powerful then the rest of the party due to all the added cash being converted into magic items. If you want to make the players happy and have it make sense in game the occationa gift to a fellow party member to help bring them up to your level (its not going to hurt your pocket book to much) is always a good way of sharing the loot without "sharing the loot". You have to figure that anthing you give the party fighter , mage, cleric, whatever is going to help you live in the long run as they run interference for you on the party adventure. Give them something to keep things balanced. Your character still gets the thrill out of completing the job and with you too much metagaming your keeping your fellow players happy as well. Later, Bjorn
Xychotic 05-11-04, 02:44 PM	Bedevere has a really good point. Let me take it just a little further. This fighter is about a mile away from the party, behind them on the road. (He had to make an important meeting and told the party to go on ahead.) Now, a savvy assassin realizes that he's gonna be playing catch up with the rest of his crew. Now's his chance to take out the fighter. The fighter is confronted by the assassin and prevails. The party had absolutely no involvement in the encounter. Do they get XP? No. They did not earn any of the rewards that the fighter did. Sure, he might hand over some loot if he feels like it, but that's entirely his perogative. By extension, the rogue that scouts ahead of the party and stumbles across an emerald in a trapped room. it's a big gem, and the party is a few minutes away, especially since that oaf of a fighter didn't notice the note that told them to be quiet when walking past that third door. So, the rogue goes ahead and risks his hide. He tries to disable the traps, and get the loot. And he does so. Is the DM obligated to give the rest of the party a share of the trap XP? Is the rogue obligated to give up part of the gold value of the gem? Of course not. Now, he might decide to share, and people will like him for it. He might decide to keep it to himself, and players might grumble, but they cannot truly and verifiably claim that they actually had a fair share of that. The only way to enforce that is to write up a contract before any given excursion. Everyone in the party grabs and carries what they can, when they get to the town, they divvy the rewards evenly. That is the unspoken contract preached by the non-rogues. But I don't think the fighter would be very pleased if the rogue decided he wanted the longsword that he just killed a rabid assassin for. Simply put, do what your rogue would do. Act within his intelligence. Weigh the risks and rewards. Is it better to hoard a bunch of loot for personal gain, or might there be a greater reward by disseminating wealth among the party to increase their wealth gaining potential in the future? And, will you survive to see this future if you give up your loot?
Super Guy 05-11-04, 08:26 PM	Hey, don't worry, soon I'll shoot for the big stuff. See my other topic if you want to help me out! [/shameless advertisement] =P
pres_man 05-11-04, 10:08 PM	Originally posted by Bedevere Anyway. To sum up: Solo adventure = solo reward. group adventure = group reward. And D&D is suppose to be what?... If the DM and a player want to do a bunch of solo missions, that's fine and dandy, but don't waste game time doing it and then say the rest of the party doesn't get a share of the experience or wealth. The really only time something like this came up, the sorcerer went flying around alone at night and found some traps in the forest and overcame them. The DM was gong to give that player some extra experience since his character was the only one around at the time. So I spoke up and said, "I think I'm going to start wandering off alone also during games, please have stuff set up for me also." The DM being the intelligent person he was quickly realized that it was going to be a pain in the rump to do stuff like that for everybody and split the xp between the whole party. Running around by yourself is hmmm... how can I say this politely... why bother, its stupid! Stupid actions should not be rewarded. I should say that most of the time I believe experience should be split between all the players sitting at the table at the time. The only exceptions is if a player's character is doing something really stupid and unhelpful. Like the party is being attacked and he is hiding in a tree laughing at the party. No xp for that behaviour since it is stupid and stupid behaviour should not be rewarded.
Super Guy 05-11-04, 10:26 PM	I realize that, so I'm hoping my DM will be able to hold a few private sessions with me if I have a particular 'big hit' in mind, so that I don't bore others to death. Robbing a high powered mage guild will not go by fast- not unless I get killed in there. The question of experience is hard, though. Does he give me no experience and let me get lots of gold? That's overpowering. Does he give me, and only me, experience to counter the gold? I'd be getting a lot of it, so I don't think the party would be pleased. Or does he give the entire party experience and ask that I please share? I wouldn't mind sharing (but keeping the largest share for myself), because it's more of a compromise. I get to do my thing, but no one is mad.
Xychotic 05-12-04, 11:02 AM	I know about solo missions, and I rather enjoy them. And, though I agree with pres-man in that we should not reward stupidity, his argument... well... you know. The proper thing to do at this time is to make a "group solo mission." This means that the DM prepares a bunch of things that engage every player at the approximate same time. The DM cuts between scenes like a TV show. So, while you're stealing from the mage guild, the fighter is looking for the swordmaster that will teach him, the wizard is being a foil for you, and the cleric is going on a short pilgrimage. This is not all that hard. It takes about 15 minutes per player, and the DM can cycle through the players, cutting the scene when the player needs think time, or it just reached a crescendo.
Impecunious_Mortal 05-13-04, 08:06 PM	If your using your rogue as a theif then rip stuff off all the time. Solo missions are great just don't wake the king while your stealing the queens heart(tehehe). I was in a campain where all the PC's had families homes and Jobs outside the realm of dungeon crawling.My earnings as a farmer wouldn't be party money.Earnings while being a theif also shouldn't be party money. If they truely metagame and start crabbing about a few majic trinkets you palmed then cut them in for a share.After that either make them go out and steal you some free loot or kill them all in their sleep and take ALL the money. A truely bigger problem than the party wanting a cut is running into the authorities rogues, or much, much worse the master of the local thieves guild . Easy fix steal the fighters magic weapon replace it will a normal one.After the first encounter where the fighter realizes his weapon is wrong go up to them and tell them you'll leave their stuff alone and they better leave yours(all that stuff that has a way of falling off the back of a truck) alone.
Vanigo 05-14-04, 01:31 AM	Originally posted by Impecunious_Mortal Easy fix steal the fighters magic weapon replace it will a normal one.After the first encounter where the fighter realizes his weapon is wrong go up to them and tell them you'll leave their stuff alone and they better leave yours(all that stuff that has a way of falling off the back of a truck) alone. That sounds like a superb way to get yourself killed. If you're going to screw with your party members, never, ever, admit it in character. They will kill you. If you keep it secret from their characters - well, they'll probably eventually find out and kill you anyway, but it'll take longer.
Wizard 05-14-04, 01:44 AM	Sure. Steal the fighter's weapon. May I ask what kind of battle-hardened veteran EVER goes about unarmed? Or at least with an extremely intimate knowledge of how he can BECOME armed in no time? Besides, you do that, the real smack-down of the party (yours truly, or one of those sorcerer charlatans) will teach you a lesson real fast.
Impecunious_Mortal 05-14-04, 11:23 AM	Think of it in the real world.A true theif to appease his itch or need for some trinket will rip off their own parents.So why would a theif(ingame) not think of this all the time(acted upon or not). We are talking about a theif not a rogue,a diplomat, a pointman,or the parties locksmith.