How important is Equipment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How important is Equipment? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dash Eleron
04-09-05, 03:14 AM I recently went through the DMG table for character wealth and noticed that in the DND games i play in our characters were severely under funded. In one game we are all roughly 5th-6th level and we have now gold, and roughly one magic item a piece(roughly or exactly+1 level of power) THe other game is not so bad, so far. When i brought it up to my DMs they shrugged and asked if i didnt like the way the games were going.... I was kind of put on the spot because I love the games and I love playing but the parties do seem to be very hurt by our lack of equipment. in other words i said "No, I enjoy the games..." and couldnt think of how to respond after that. Should I pursue the matter further? Is/are equipment/wealth/items that important, or am I misinterpreting/overreacting?
Torack
04-09-05, 04:26 AM Well...IMHO, it depends on the game.

If you are having fun and not having excessive difficulties surviving encounters, don't worry too much about the magic items.

If however you are facing extreme odds each time and barely surviving, then I'd go talk with the DM.

The tables in the DMG should be considered a guideline, not set in stone.

As long as you're having fun(and you're characters are surviving without too much difficulty), I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I might, on occassion, just point to the tables every once in awhile to your DM.
DM Zoc
04-09-05, 05:42 AM The problem with the "recommended wealth" table is that they use it to judge challenge ratings for monsters, and the challenge rating system is used to assign experience.

Basically, it's very difficult to proceed at something other than an incredibly arbitrary pace if you don't follow the wealth tables fairly closely.

The main problem with the arbitrary pace is that it devalues the meaning of experience costs to item creation and/or spellcasting.

The whole d20 system more or less hinges on that wealth chart, and I really don't like that. I have most of my experience in games where the party doesn't have any magical items, so it's a pretty big adjustment to try and play a "normal" campaign.
BW0222
04-09-05, 07:13 AM Dash Eleron,

>I recently went through the DMG table for character wealth and noticed
>that in the DND games i play in our characters were severely under funded.

The wealth chart in the DMG isn't law. It is a guideline to DMs to judge whether a campaign is getting "out of control". Many campaigns have more or less than this. I've played in campaigns were I averaged three times this from 3rd onward, and I've played in those where I've averaged less than one-fifth of this. It's a matter of what the DM is comfortable with and what the players enjoy.

Typically, if players have too much treasure, the campaign can get boring. You can blast away folks with powerful magical items, consumables, etc. The campaign is less about your characters than your characters possessions. If you have too little treasure, you run the risk of not having enough magic to make it through encounters with most encounters without serious added risk. i.e. by 2nd, it assumes someone will have some potions/scrolls, by 4th, the system starts assuming that someone will have a magic weapon, etc.

It is usually a bigger problem going over the limits than being under. If you go over, it means you often have too much power for your level. This can mean it becomes too easy to defeat appropriate encounters and hence gain more treasure. It becomes like a snowball, and it hard to stop. For example, a group of 3rd-level PCs finds a figurine of wonderous power - silver griffon (10,000gp). This alone puts them well over their limit and is a clear warning sign. For two days a week, they will walk through enounters. The DM is then either scrambling to get rid of the item and/or put in insanely powerful creatures to counter it -- often killing the PCs in the crossfire. Neither being fun.

IMO, I like campaigns in which you have less (maybe half) that of that listed. It makes encounters a little more difficult, it means that mundane encounters are still interesting (you can't just pull out a wand to defeat everything), it keeps players "hungry", and it gives more room for the DM to make 'treasure mistakes' (i.e. place a powerful item in without fully considering it).

If a number of 4th+ level players only average 2,000gp each, and the DM (accidentally) allows them to find a ring of invisibility, it isn't that bad of a mistake. 20,000gp/5 = an extra 4,000gp each which doesn't completely blow the game. If they manage sell it, they only get 2,000gp each (say a few magic swords, scrolls, potions, a cloak of resistance, and 1,500gp), and they are ok. If they keep it, they have exceeded the limit (but not obscenely so) and the DM can keep control by limiting the future amounts of treasure.
Lina_Inverse
04-09-05, 08:04 AM more importent than anyone likes.deviateing greatly from wealth per level inevitably ruins games.

1.the fighters fall so far behind its not funny.pcs being worthless tends to end caimpaigns or lose most there players.
2.the pcs die to a TPK from a monster of approriete CR.
3.the pcs have too much wealth,and the pcs walk over everything.no challenge.

by 20th level,pc wealth for fighter types.is pretty much 90% of the charecter.yes you heard that right.a 20th level fighter if well built MIGHT qualify for CR10,but thats a long way from CR 20 in power.spellcasters lose less,there abilitys arent wholly reliant on items,there magic is built in,but they still lose ALOT.

these problems are nearly non-existant at low levels,but just keep getting worse as you go up.
Serraco
04-09-05, 09:33 AM I'd say it depends how the campaign's going and what kind of character you're using. A fighter can always use the extra cash, whereas a monk really doesn't need a whole lot to be effective (an Amulet of Mighty Fists and a Monk's Belt can go pretty far. Bracers of Armor, Ring of Protection, and Gloves of Dexterity if you feel the need are also possible. A fighter has to look for armor, a melee weapon, a ranged weapon, possibly a shield, possibly a backup melee weapon... and that's not even starting on wonderous items yet).

If things take you right to Asmodeus' personal doorstep in combat, though, and the rolls for the party have been great (although maybe not hitting all the time because of insane AC's), then there could be a problem.

Dash - How are things going, though? Are you guys frequently getting your tails handed to you or are you getting through combat without problems? This may answer some things, or help the people on the boards give further suggestions.
snowlynx
04-09-05, 11:11 AM 5th-6th level: don't worry about it too much. You will have a problem, though, if you get to about 9th level and have that amount of gear (damage reduction suddenly becomes a big deal when you're underequipped, and the monster manual presumes at least enchanted wepons by that point. incorporeal creatures are near impossible to fight without spells or enchanted weapons.)

Spellcasters will always have an easier time dealing with this lack of money, since their spells are useful even without equipment, and they tend to have energy dealing spells that bypass damage reduction.
Gristooth
04-09-05, 12:14 PM Melee classes tend to suffer more in low gold campaigns because they depend on their equipment to deal with higher CR monsters. But if they're doing fine in your game, I wouldn't worry about it much.

Regarding being put on the spot by the DM, I'd say to just answer honestly if you think that the game is going unfairly. You shouldn't have to appologize for what you feel, and others in your group may feel the same way.

This may not change anything significantly in the game (maybe your DM likes low-gold campaigns, but adjusts the CR accordingly?), but don't feel like you're being "bullied" into saying something you don't believe, just because the DM puts you on the spot.
Dash Eleron
04-09-05, 02:00 PM as far as the combat goes we are allways in trouble... One of the players even lost 2 characters in one session, and we almost allways end the session at half hp. Healing is a major issue also because we have already consumed the 10 healing potions we started with 2 levels ago, and the closest thing to a healer we have is an elf druid. We do find a decent amount of loot, ie greatswords and chainshirts on most intelegent monsters, but becuase our campaigne is spent scurrying about in the frozen wasteland country side and nearest "town" consists of halflings that cant use medium greatswords anyways, the encounter loot is low as well. i geuss if we got our moneys worth in potions it wouldnt be too bad maybe i should suggest that to our dm.

As far as the other game goes you guys are correct the gold is actually just fine and it is not too difucult most of the time, and when it isnt it only requires a bit more of a poroblem solving approach.
Gedrin
04-09-05, 02:14 PM The odds are, that if you're loving the game, the DM is skilled enough to judge the power of the party relative to the opponents.

That said, plan out a "treasure expedition" in game and take your characters in search of the things you want for your characters. Do some research in game. Find the local legends. Stock up for the adventure, and go get the loot. Most DM's who are good, would be cooperative in this.
Thanatos02
04-09-05, 03:35 PM Another suggestion is to inject a "patron" into the game.
My games are pretty low-treasure, but the PCs are always equipped for the situation - or at least I give them the oppertunity.

While they arn't paid enough to just out and buy the expensive adventuring equipment, the stuff they have in this game is on loan from either the magic school or the local lords. (Or whoever they're working for.) The PCs buy some of their stuff, but they also requisition.

If this isn't your cup of tea, that patron can just pay them the money they need. It doesn't work in my game, because that kind of money just doesn't exist in coin form - it's all tied up in land or holdings, but that shouldn't stop you from doing it. It's your game, and give you a logical reason to give your PCs the cash you feel they require.
OamuTheMonk
04-10-05, 01:30 AM Check out my thread, entitled "Is it possible to survive this?", on this very board, because you are my party's past, and we are your future. The crux of the situation is that if a party is underfunded, but still leveling up, they reach a point where their equipment is insufficient for their level--that is, you cannot function against the monsters with a Challenge Rating equivalent to your party's average level...My party ran into this (although, if you read my thread, we seem to have also been fighting monsters beyond our level in CR), and we are still struggling with it...You can get some pretty good insight as to what might be in store for you in there, too, but if you don't feel like finding it, here's my advice: Fight cheap. Use every tactical advantage you possibly can, because your party is going to need teamwork to survive. protect your casters, and target your enemy's. Flank and flank and flank. Use potions (if you can get them) like they were water (no point in dying with a full vial in your pouch)--your DM probably wont let you run out completely. Familiarize (or ReFamiliarize) yourself with the Combat section of the player's handbook. Make sure you get every combat bonus you are entitled to (+4 to AC from cover[even soft cover, like another opponent], +1 to attack rolls for higher ground, -4 penalty to enemy's ranged attacks against you if you are engaged in melee, all enemies flat-footed before they have acted in the initiative...etcetera,etcetera). Those combat nickels and dimes add up when you've got no real wealth.
Angrboda
04-10-05, 02:35 AM As OamuTheMonk says, use those potions...and don't be afraid to buy different kinds & use multiple potions...scrolls too, especially for your casters. That healing potion is good after the damage is done, but the potion of mage armor & potion of shield of faith (which stack) can save you from taking the damage at a very reasonable price. With a druid in the party, you may want to pool funds & invest in a wand of cure light wounds for him to use on everyone, a bargain at 750gp for 50 charges. And cooperate in your fights. Be aware of casters' line of sight. Flank as often as possible. Make use of cover. And be aware of what you can do...learn the combat section of the PH. Your DM won't always tell you that taking that 5-foot step to the left will give you a flanking advantage, so be aware. Support your party members in combat. Stabilize downed players if it's at all possible. Heal them later if you must, but don't let them die if it can be avoided. And if you lose two characters in the same session again, it may be time to sit your DM down & ask him to talk it over with the group...that just seems excessive to me. Good luck, adventurer...I too, understand exactly how frustrating it it to walk this path.
Solidcobra
04-10-05, 05:00 AM See...if the party's strapped for cash, there IS a way that both helps fix the problem and gives a slight protest to the DM at the same time.
Let the wizard take knowledge: religion and lots of item creation feats. Subdue your intelligent (int3+) foes instead of killing them... Now tie them up well and good, summon a demon, charm the enemy, cast all those yummy know:religion-buff spells...
Now it's simply a matter of knowing juuuust where to strike that dagger.
Use the BoVD sacrifice rules for dark craft XP and dark craft gold. You'll have free potions of cure all around in no time. If the DM asks WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU...just tell him that you HAVE to or you'll never have a chance against the evil monsters of *gasp* approporiate CR because he *double gasp* didn't give you CASH for approporiate level.
Mirikon
04-10-05, 11:39 AM Deviating from the standard loot tables, and the wealth per level tables tends to destabilize things. A good DM will, when seeing something shift to one side or the other, take measures to shift it back a bit. This DM doesn't seem to be wanting to do that. Why are your PCs in the frozen wasteland, anyways? They're adventurers, right? Where's the incentive to go on busting their butts like that? Have the PCs move south, to where it is warmer and funding is better.
Dash Eleron
04-10-05, 03:13 PM it would be nice if we could buy things, especially potions, but like i said we arent near a town where we can buy anything, we are in the frozen wastes as a plot hook or something. Basically we die in our regular lives and then show up in the current world somewhere near the party. Makes introducing new characters as others die easy. when we were doing character creation we did the starting gold x 100 x (character level +1) which means even though multiple new characters have died and we have canabalized some of their stuff we are still underfunded. I also just found out that becuase i missed the last game in which we defeated the Big Bad we were hunting i missed out on all the final treasure. And our party wasted almost all the coin we had on a crooked preist removing blindness and ability drain... since they didnt look to see how much money was in the bag before handing it to the preist he took it all. :weep:

we already do use the combat book, soft cover is a two edged sword let me tell you; but "aid another" has been really helpful. basically our current tactic involves using the druids summoned monsters as temporary hitpoints and meat shields.
Cold Napalm
04-10-05, 03:34 PM A good DM can adjust for more or less treasure and will do so. If you level 5-6 and the CR you coming up against is 5 or 6 with THAT much less treasure then the DM is NOT doing his job properly and this will end in a TPK. A player who has 2 character dies in a session is a HUGE clue. If he is sending in CR 4 or 5, then it's about right. This is not 2ed where treasure wasn't as important as levels beyond the you must be this tall to play DR system of 2ed. Treaure is bascially an intergral part of everything in the current system.
Nived
04-11-05, 01:00 AM 50 feet of rope

Grappling hook

10 foot pole

Absolutlely essential. I don't care if your 40th level.
DM Zoc
04-11-05, 02:34 AM A major problem is that gear is so integral to the CR process that players begin to think of themselves as untouchable: there is no need to fear thieves, because that would hurt the party too bad and so no DM would risk it. If DMs could start thinking of ECL as a variable of which level is only one small part, then maybe people would start worrying about their gear and relying upon it less.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dash Eleron 04-09-05, 03:14 AM	I recently went through the DMG table for character wealth and noticed that in the DND games i play in our characters were severely under funded. In one game we are all roughly 5th-6th level and we have now gold, and roughly one magic item a piece(roughly or exactly+1 level of power) THe other game is not so bad, so far. When i brought it up to my DMs they shrugged and asked if i didnt like the way the games were going.... I was kind of put on the spot because I love the games and I love playing but the parties do seem to be very hurt by our lack of equipment. in other words i said "No, I enjoy the games..." and couldnt think of how to respond after that. Should I pursue the matter further? Is/are equipment/wealth/items that important, or am I misinterpreting/overreacting?
Torack 04-09-05, 04:26 AM	Well...IMHO, it depends on the game. If you are having fun and not having excessive difficulties surviving encounters, don't worry too much about the magic items. If however you are facing extreme odds each time and barely surviving, then I'd go talk with the DM. The tables in the DMG should be considered a guideline, not set in stone. As long as you're having fun(and you're characters are surviving without too much difficulty), I wouldn't worry too much about it. I might, on occassion, just point to the tables every once in awhile to your DM.
DM Zoc 04-09-05, 05:42 AM	The problem with the "recommended wealth" table is that they use it to judge challenge ratings for monsters, and the challenge rating system is used to assign experience. Basically, it's very difficult to proceed at something other than an incredibly arbitrary pace if you don't follow the wealth tables fairly closely. The main problem with the arbitrary pace is that it devalues the meaning of experience costs to item creation and/or spellcasting. The whole d20 system more or less hinges on that wealth chart, and I really don't like that. I have most of my experience in games where the party doesn't have any magical items, so it's a pretty big adjustment to try and play a "normal" campaign.
BW0222 04-09-05, 07:13 AM	Dash Eleron, >I recently went through the DMG table for character wealth and noticed >that in the DND games i play in our characters were severely under funded. The wealth chart in the DMG isn't law. It is a guideline to DMs to judge whether a campaign is getting "out of control". Many campaigns have more or less than this. I've played in campaigns were I averaged three times this from 3rd onward, and I've played in those where I've averaged less than one-fifth of this. It's a matter of what the DM is comfortable with and what the players enjoy. Typically, if players have too much treasure, the campaign can get boring. You can blast away folks with powerful magical items, consumables, etc. The campaign is less about your characters than your characters possessions. If you have too little treasure, you run the risk of not having enough magic to make it through encounters with most encounters without serious added risk. i.e. by 2nd, it assumes someone will have some potions/scrolls, by 4th, the system starts assuming that someone will have a magic weapon, etc. It is usually a bigger problem going over the limits than being under. If you go over, it means you often have too much power for your level. This can mean it becomes too easy to defeat appropriate encounters and hence gain more treasure. It becomes like a snowball, and it hard to stop. For example, a group of 3rd-level PCs finds a figurine of wonderous power - silver griffon (10,000gp). This alone puts them well over their limit and is a clear warning sign. For two days a week, they will walk through enounters. The DM is then either scrambling to get rid of the item and/or put in insanely powerful creatures to counter it -- often killing the PCs in the crossfire. Neither being fun. IMO, I like campaigns in which you have less (maybe half) that of that listed. It makes encounters a little more difficult, it means that mundane encounters are still interesting (you can't just pull out a wand to defeat everything), it keeps players "hungry", and it gives more room for the DM to make 'treasure mistakes' (i.e. place a powerful item in without fully considering it). If a number of 4th+ level players only average 2,000gp each, and the DM (accidentally) allows them to find a ring of invisibility, it isn't that bad of a mistake. 20,000gp/5 = an extra 4,000gp each which doesn't completely blow the game. If they manage sell it, they only get 2,000gp each (say a few magic swords, scrolls, potions, a cloak of resistance, and 1,500gp), and they are ok. If they keep it, they have exceeded the limit (but not obscenely so) and the DM can keep control by limiting the future amounts of treasure.
Lina_Inverse 04-09-05, 08:04 AM	more importent than anyone likes.deviateing greatly from wealth per level inevitably ruins games. 1.the fighters fall so far behind its not funny.pcs being worthless tends to end caimpaigns or lose most there players. 2.the pcs die to a TPK from a monster of approriete CR. 3.the pcs have too much wealth,and the pcs walk over everything.no challenge. by 20th level,pc wealth for fighter types.is pretty much 90% of the charecter.yes you heard that right.a 20th level fighter if well built MIGHT qualify for CR10,but thats a long way from CR 20 in power.spellcasters lose less,there abilitys arent wholly reliant on items,there magic is built in,but they still lose ALOT. these problems are nearly non-existant at low levels,but just keep getting worse as you go up.
Serraco 04-09-05, 09:33 AM	I'd say it depends how the campaign's going and what kind of character you're using. A fighter can always use the extra cash, whereas a monk really doesn't need a whole lot to be effective (an Amulet of Mighty Fists and a Monk's Belt can go pretty far. Bracers of Armor, Ring of Protection, and Gloves of Dexterity if you feel the need are also possible. A fighter has to look for armor, a melee weapon, a ranged weapon, possibly a shield, possibly a backup melee weapon... and that's not even starting on wonderous items yet). If things take you right to Asmodeus' personal doorstep in combat, though, and the rolls for the party have been great (although maybe not hitting all the time because of insane AC's), then there could be a problem. Dash - How are things going, though? Are you guys frequently getting your tails handed to you or are you getting through combat without problems? This may answer some things, or help the people on the boards give further suggestions.
snowlynx 04-09-05, 11:11 AM	5th-6th level: don't worry about it too much. You will have a problem, though, if you get to about 9th level and have that amount of gear (damage reduction suddenly becomes a big deal when you're underequipped, and the monster manual presumes at least enchanted wepons by that point. incorporeal creatures are near impossible to fight without spells or enchanted weapons.) Spellcasters will always have an easier time dealing with this lack of money, since their spells are useful even without equipment, and they tend to have energy dealing spells that bypass damage reduction.
Gristooth 04-09-05, 12:14 PM	Melee classes tend to suffer more in low gold campaigns because they depend on their equipment to deal with higher CR monsters. But if they're doing fine in your game, I wouldn't worry about it much. Regarding being put on the spot by the DM, I'd say to just answer honestly if you think that the game is going unfairly. You shouldn't have to appologize for what you feel, and others in your group may feel the same way. This may not change anything significantly in the game (maybe your DM likes low-gold campaigns, but adjusts the CR accordingly?), but don't feel like you're being "bullied" into saying something you don't believe, just because the DM puts you on the spot.
Dash Eleron 04-09-05, 02:00 PM	as far as the combat goes we are allways in trouble... One of the players even lost 2 characters in one session, and we almost allways end the session at half hp. Healing is a major issue also because we have already consumed the 10 healing potions we started with 2 levels ago, and the closest thing to a healer we have is an elf druid. We do find a decent amount of loot, ie greatswords and chainshirts on most intelegent monsters, but becuase our campaigne is spent scurrying about in the frozen wasteland country side and nearest "town" consists of halflings that cant use medium greatswords anyways, the encounter loot is low as well. i geuss if we got our moneys worth in potions it wouldnt be too bad maybe i should suggest that to our dm. As far as the other game goes you guys are correct the gold is actually just fine and it is not too difucult most of the time, and when it isnt it only requires a bit more of a poroblem solving approach.
Gedrin 04-09-05, 02:14 PM	The odds are, that if you're loving the game, the DM is skilled enough to judge the power of the party relative to the opponents. That said, plan out a "treasure expedition" in game and take your characters in search of the things you want for your characters. Do some research in game. Find the local legends. Stock up for the adventure, and go get the loot. Most DM's who are good, would be cooperative in this.
Thanatos02 04-09-05, 03:35 PM	Another suggestion is to inject a "patron" into the game. My games are pretty low-treasure, but the PCs are always equipped for the situation - or at least I give them the oppertunity. While they arn't paid enough to just out and buy the expensive adventuring equipment, the stuff they have in this game is on loan from either the magic school or the local lords. (Or whoever they're working for.) The PCs buy some of their stuff, but they also requisition. If this isn't your cup of tea, that patron can just pay them the money they need. It doesn't work in my game, because that kind of money just doesn't exist in coin form - it's all tied up in land or holdings, but that shouldn't stop you from doing it. It's your game, and give you a logical reason to give your PCs the cash you feel they require.
OamuTheMonk 04-10-05, 01:30 AM	Check out my thread, entitled "Is it possible to survive this?", on this very board, because you are my party's past, and we are your future. The crux of the situation is that if a party is underfunded, but still leveling up, they reach a point where their equipment is insufficient for their level--that is, you cannot function against the monsters with a Challenge Rating equivalent to your party's average level...My party ran into this (although, if you read my thread, we seem to have also been fighting monsters beyond our level in CR), and we are still struggling with it...You can get some pretty good insight as to what might be in store for you in there, too, but if you don't feel like finding it, here's my advice: Fight cheap. Use every tactical advantage you possibly can, because your party is going to need teamwork to survive. protect your casters, and target your enemy's. Flank and flank and flank. Use potions (if you can get them) like they were water (no point in dying with a full vial in your pouch)--your DM probably wont let you run out completely. Familiarize (or ReFamiliarize) yourself with the Combat section of the player's handbook. Make sure you get every combat bonus you are entitled to (+4 to AC from cover[even soft cover, like another opponent], +1 to attack rolls for higher ground, -4 penalty to enemy's ranged attacks against you if you are engaged in melee, all enemies flat-footed before they have acted in the initiative...etcetera,etcetera). Those combat nickels and dimes add up when you've got no real wealth.
Angrboda 04-10-05, 02:35 AM	As OamuTheMonk says, use those potions...and don't be afraid to buy different kinds & use multiple potions...scrolls too, especially for your casters. That healing potion is good after the damage is done, but the potion of mage armor & potion of shield of faith (which stack) can save you from taking the damage at a very reasonable price. With a druid in the party, you may want to pool funds & invest in a wand of cure light wounds for him to use on everyone, a bargain at 750gp for 50 charges. And cooperate in your fights. Be aware of casters' line of sight. Flank as often as possible. Make use of cover. And be aware of what you can do...learn the combat section of the PH. Your DM won't always tell you that taking that 5-foot step to the left will give you a flanking advantage, so be aware. Support your party members in combat. Stabilize downed players if it's at all possible. Heal them later if you must, but don't let them die if it can be avoided. And if you lose two characters in the same session again, it may be time to sit your DM down & ask him to talk it over with the group...that just seems excessive to me. Good luck, adventurer...I too, understand exactly how frustrating it it to walk this path.
Solidcobra 04-10-05, 05:00 AM	See...if the party's strapped for cash, there IS a way that both helps fix the problem and gives a slight protest to the DM at the same time. Let the wizard take knowledge: religion and lots of item creation feats. Subdue your intelligent (int3+) foes instead of killing them... Now tie them up well and good, summon a demon, charm the enemy, cast all those yummy know:religion-buff spells... Now it's simply a matter of knowing juuuust where to strike that dagger. Use the BoVD sacrifice rules for dark craft XP and dark craft gold. You'll have free potions of cure all around in no time. If the DM asks WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU...just tell him that you HAVE to or you'll never have a chance against the evil monsters of gasp approporiate CR because he double gasp didn't give you CASH for approporiate level.
Mirikon 04-10-05, 11:39 AM	Deviating from the standard loot tables, and the wealth per level tables tends to destabilize things. A good DM will, when seeing something shift to one side or the other, take measures to shift it back a bit. This DM doesn't seem to be wanting to do that. Why are your PCs in the frozen wasteland, anyways? They're adventurers, right? Where's the incentive to go on busting their butts like that? Have the PCs move south, to where it is warmer and funding is better.
Dash Eleron 04-10-05, 03:13 PM	it would be nice if we could buy things, especially potions, but like i said we arent near a town where we can buy anything, we are in the frozen wastes as a plot hook or something. Basically we die in our regular lives and then show up in the current world somewhere near the party. Makes introducing new characters as others die easy. when we were doing character creation we did the starting gold x 100 x (character level +1) which means even though multiple new characters have died and we have canabalized some of their stuff we are still underfunded. I also just found out that becuase i missed the last game in which we defeated the Big Bad we were hunting i missed out on all the final treasure. And our party wasted almost all the coin we had on a crooked preist removing blindness and ability drain... since they didnt look to see how much money was in the bag before handing it to the preist he took it all. :weep: we already do use the combat book, soft cover is a two edged sword let me tell you; but "aid another" has been really helpful. basically our current tactic involves using the druids summoned monsters as temporary hitpoints and meat shields.
Cold Napalm 04-10-05, 03:34 PM	A good DM can adjust for more or less treasure and will do so. If you level 5-6 and the CR you coming up against is 5 or 6 with THAT much less treasure then the DM is NOT doing his job properly and this will end in a TPK. A player who has 2 character dies in a session is a HUGE clue. If he is sending in CR 4 or 5, then it's about right. This is not 2ed where treasure wasn't as important as levels beyond the you must be this tall to play DR system of 2ed. Treaure is bascially an intergral part of everything in the current system.
Nived 04-11-05, 01:00 AM	50 feet of rope Grappling hook 10 foot pole Absolutlely essential. I don't care if your 40th level.
DM Zoc 04-11-05, 02:34 AM	A major problem is that gear is so integral to the CR process that players begin to think of themselves as untouchable: there is no need to fear thieves, because that would hurt the party too bad and so no DM would risk it. If DMs could start thinking of ECL as a variable of which level is only one small part, then maybe people would start worrying about their gear and relying upon it less.