Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AlmightyDust 01-16-06, 02:17 PM	The GM comes up with good stories that he likes to tell to us through Spot and Listen rolls. Maybe if we are lucky we encounter something that game. Mostly he just tells us what happens and how things work out. Then when we are lucky enough to have an encounter, he changes the combat rules to suit his story and changes the characters class abilities, on the fly and in combat. Usually he says that the player can not use that ability, even though he did not mention that during original cracter creation. His justification yesterday was, "I am the GM. It's my game and that's how it is." If you disagree, he responds with "I am the GM, it is my game and you need to stop pouting." His unfortunate attitude has happened now in the three games that he has GM'd. We have already had two people refuse to play in his game anymore, and I am one foot out the door now too. I have plenty of friends who play and have not gone to other fun games to give this guy a shot. I feel like I wasted my time now. My question: How many "I am the GM and I say that's how it is" statements should a player accept before leaving the game? So far it has been 2-3 per game for 3 games.
Darkuwa 01-16-06, 02:20 PM	are you having fun? if yes put up with it forever. if not quit now.
obrysii 01-16-06, 02:20 PM	I really don't know the answer. The only personal experiance I have with it was mostly just the DM joking. I think I made the statement, "I am the DM, and I say so" perhaps once. A DM shouldn't be messing with the rules like that. It just ends up having the players not very happy.
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-16-06, 02:23 PM	I think by making this thread you already know the answer is "one less than you've already taken", and you just need a little support to go through with it. Walk. Railroading DMs are chumps, and playing games that aren't fun is a waste of time.
AlmightyDust 01-16-06, 02:25 PM	I had the decision in my mind, and I was looking for community support.
danielinthewolvesden 01-16-06, 02:36 PM	He's not a Railroader so much as the Novelist. Your DM has written a story in his head. You are there only to appreciate it, and not change it in any way. Speak to the DM about this, explain that and how his capricious rulings "it my game" has made you feel as a player. Give it a try, and if he is a new DM, you might have a chance of him changing. Otherwise- walk. :weep:
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 02:55 PM	To the OP: Walk out at 1. As the other guy said. That isn't a game. That is a novel. Actors get paid mega-bucks to read their lines. Why are you doing it for free?
RedWizard 01-16-06, 04:33 PM	How many "I am the GM and I say that's how it is" statements should a player accept before leaving the game? Best ask Mr. Owl. "A-one, A-two," Crunch! "A-Two." Seriously though, if you don't like his way of gaming (and it does sound a bit railroady in nature) it is best to walk.
Cold Napalm 01-16-06, 05:04 PM	Honestly...I walk out at 1.
JadeSpider9643 01-16-06, 05:30 PM	Here's the smartest thing I've seen anyone say on a thread of this type... Usually, if you ask the question about ending a relationship, you already know the answer, and are just looking for outside approval. that said...it's a game not a job, if your not having fun, don't play.
Cymraegmorgan 01-16-06, 06:03 PM	"I am the GM. It's my game and that's how it is." It is not just his game, it is everyones game who is at the table. If I heard that once out of a DM, then I would suggest he engage in a little autoeroticism and leave, never to game with him again.
AlmightyDust 01-16-06, 06:55 PM	I understand what you mean by leaving at 1, but that is a bit unrealistic. Everyone has had to say that as a GM once. I used that phrase once about 10 years ago, but I did not want to, and I do not ever use that rational now. My feeling is that GM's deserve the benefit of the doubt at first. Maybe there is a legitimate story secret that would be ruined if uncovered out of sequence. But denying class abilities, and changing combat rules, in the middle of combat does not protect inappropriate story revelations. Also, as a consistent GM tactic, it is not conducive to endearing players to that GM's games. As I said earlier, this is not the only game in town, so I am not out-of-luck. Oddly, the GM I am referring to is a fun player to both play with and to have play in my game. Go figure. Maybe he just trips out on the false sense of control. Thanks for everyone's two-cents. I was hoping to confirm that I am not over-sensitive about this issue.
20goingon1232 01-16-06, 07:20 PM	I understand what you mean by leaving at 1, but that is a bit unrealistic. Everyone has had to say that as a GM once. I used that phrase once about 10 years ago, but I did not want to, and I do not ever use that rational now. My feeling is that GM's deserve the benefit of the doubt at first. Maybe there is a legitimate story secret that would be ruined if uncovered out of sequence. But denying class abilities, and changing combat rules, in the middle of combat does not protect inappropriate story revelations. Also, as a consistent GM tactic, it is not conducive to endearing players to that GM's games. As I said earlier, this is not the only game in town, so I am not out-of-luck. Oddly, the GM I am referring to is a fun player to both play with and to have play in my game. Go figure. Maybe he just trips out on the false sense of control. Thanks for everyone's two-cents. I was hoping to confirm that I am not over-sensitive about this issue. Nothing unrealistic about it. There are many ways of steering things to the correct outcome. Saying "I am the GM and I say how it is" is arrogant and rude. This DM is not treating his players as adults, merely immature children or plain puppets. Conventional wisdom says that you don't even treat CHILDREN like that unless they are being very, very unreasonable. No. I won't give the DM a benefit of a doubt. I'll walk out there and then, and will have nothing to do with him. If he is like this over a fantasy thing, I really don't want to know what he is like over something that is real, and, to be honest, I don't want to find out.
guru7892 01-16-06, 07:27 PM	look, all games should have a plot, and i thing the DM can "BI'MTDMAISS" if they are trying to keep things from not making sense. like if a player asked; why cant i play a drow? why cant i play a rock? what if the rock was perminantly animated and awakend? why can i invent a gattling gun with infinite ammunition? why is my shotgun get a bonus against undead? why does pointing my ak47 at the ground allow me to get a head shot? why do atoms exist in 2 places at once and people not? if a train left waterdeep traveling 46 KM/h and a train left neverwinter at 54km/h where would they collide? (acaully waterdeep is water locked, lol)
Sluagh 01-16-06, 07:43 PM	My DMs run with that idea all the time... however, not in the sucky way you've outlined. As mentioned, your DM seems to have a story to tell and you're there to play a part that has been predetermined. That's not playing, that just doing what you're told without any creative control. If that's fun, great, but from this thread, it sounds like it isn't. Changing rules mid-game kind of blows :P Let your DM know how his game choices are detracting from the players' experience and give him a chance to change... if he doesn't, yeah, walk. Of course, you seem like you've already walked, you just haven't told your character or the DM :P Rule 0 (DM's discretion) is an awesome DM tool, but if not used well can really destroy a game. Luckily, my DMs have used it to avoid bogging down in rules and keep things moving/fun. I myself have used it judiciously in games I've run, but you really have to try not to change things to screw over the story and the fun; it takes practice. EDIT: What I'm saying, I suppose, is that the idea of using the "I decided that's how it is" excuse once is poor reason to walk on a game... there is often reason for it, reason that is often beneficial to the story/game.
Lina_Inverse 01-16-06, 08:00 PM	Id leave the first time. The second sin of GMing is railroading. If he wants to write a novel, tell him to write a novel. Also remind him its not his game, there are more players than GMs, and thus the players have more ownership in the game.
Teydyn 01-16-06, 08:12 PM	I feel like I wasted my time now. Then you probably have. Stop it. Start having fun again.
Milandros 01-16-06, 10:19 PM	In the case you describe, you're obviously not having fun. It's probably time to leave. That said, please, please people realise that the first response to any comment you don't like should not be to walk out. Some of the people on these boards sound like they have no friends at all! "If my buddy and I were playing a game and he was the referee/DM and made a call I didn't agree with, I'd punch him in the face, walk out and never talk him again!" I always reccomend a short discussion first. If done politely and without malice, it can make a bad situation into a good one. Normally, when a DM invokes rule 0, then you have to look at why. If he's doing it as a matter of control-freakery, in particular by telling the players what their characters are doing, then this is a very bad sign indeed, and I would reccomend going to the calm exchange of views immediately (not a open and frank exchange of views, which is the code for a screaming arguement. How many times have you gone back after that kind of a discussion and said "yes, you were right, I am a jerk and you're obviously better than me", honestly?) If the DM invokes rule 0 as a mechanics issue (e.g. "I'm ruling thatthere simply isn't time to get your shot off as you stated that you were looking the other way" then this can be discussed later, but sometimes needs to bew done. Every DM sometimes needs to do this. It's not so much "Because I'm the DM and I say so" as "I've listened to what you said, and, by my responsibilities as referee and DM, I have made this ruling". The rules simply can not simulate an entire universe of options, and a DM sometimes has to determine effects, set DCs or decide if something is possible by judgement. The tricky bit is when the DM invokes rule 0 to keep a story moving or plot on track. This is really a matter of group taste. Some groups don't mind an occasional "cutscene" that moves the plot on particularly ("You're surrounded, and rapidly disarmed. They drag you into their camp and lock you in the cages you saw earlier"). Some groups absolutely hate any loss of control - in the above example, they want the chance to die fighting, to try to run, to see if they can find some clever path. Really nasty arguments happen when there isn't an easy way out and they are outmatched, but they expect the DM to "play fair" and never let them encounter an enemy they can't kill. This sort of situation really requires discussion so that a play style everyone enjoys can be agreed on.
Sluagh 01-16-06, 11:34 PM	Right, Milandros knows what's what :) That's basically what I was getting at, but said with more eloquence.
Feor 01-17-06, 12:42 AM	The "I'm DM so what I say goes" attitude isn't universally applicable. If it's something like a player wanting to play a Warforged and the DM saying no, it's his game and he doesn't want to mess with his setting by introducing Warforged to it, so be it, he's DM, his word is law. If it's something like a player wanting to make a balance check to run across a greased floor and the DM won't allow it becuase "I'm DM and what I say goes" then he's just power tripping. Tell him to stop DMing and start writting short fiction. While it is the player's game as well as the DM's, you do need to keep in mind that he's responsible for keeping the thing running in a sensible and organized manner, and a certain amount of creative control is required to keep players from completely destroying the game world. (They didn't call him the Dungeon Narrator now did they?) The DM was chosen to be DM, and was so placed in a position where he's meant to have a measure of control over the character's actions, in the form of determining what is and isn't withing the scope of the rules (even, and especially, when he feels something within the letter of the rules is counter to the spirit of the rules). He's in charge, but it is a democracy. If you no longer feel him fit to lead, you vote him out of office by not playing. Simple as that.
Morbid 01-17-06, 01:17 AM	Normally I would say 6... But with the fact of him cutting abilities (-3) and the even worse factor of it being in the middle of combat (-3) my calculations say after finding out he was dumb as a post, I wouldn't have even waited for the speech and just gave up with him.
SimianShaw 01-17-06, 03:26 PM	I see a lot of folks are quick to step off when the GM is indulging in illicit pharmaceuticals, but since you've expended the energy to stick around for as long as you have, you might as well try to fix the problem (like adults, talking only pls :) ). If he further insults your intelligence or antagonizes your good nature, whip out the Boots of GM Stomping +4 and put him through the dirt. Have at it.
adelro28 01-17-06, 03:41 PM	A DM is only a DM if he has players to DM for. There is only one reason to put up with a poor DM, and that is lack of another DM. A DM in training is better than a egomaniacle one (or one that can spell for that matter :D ). If your unhappy with his game, gracefully bow out and tell him, your looking for a different kind of game. If his people are leaving him he'll get the hint, or find new players. It's so hard to get a group of players together on a regular basis, why abuse them, or be abused. Play on people, Play on.
Rhomphaia 01-17-06, 05:44 PM	I have actually had a very similar experience happen, but in a different game system. This is what I did, in steps. 1) I watched for consistency in his rulings, and found none. 2) After the game, I brought this fact up to him. He said he would work on it. 3) Repeated steps 1 and 2, but this time I got the answer of 'Me Og, me, GM, me word is law.' 4) I simply left and told everyone I wouldn't be back. I suggest you do the same. This guy is abusing DM Rule 0, but you got Player Rule 0 on your side. Don't play in his game.
narukagami 01-17-06, 06:01 PM	When a Gm says I am the GM. It's my game and that's how it is. the proper response should be. Have fun with your game then. followed by the DM watching you pack your stuff and walk out. Granted, it is a good idea to talk with the GM and tell him what he's doing wrong, politely, but it seems to me you already tried that and got the response in question. If so, then respond as stated. This is why I only play with friends and friends of friends who are good gamers, keeps my bad DM experiances to a minimum.
20goingon1232 01-17-06, 06:38 PM	When a Gm says the proper response should be. followed by the DM watching you pack your stuff and walk out. Granted, it is a good idea to talk with the GM and tell him what he's doing wrong, politely, but it seems to me you already tried that and got the response in question. If so, then respond as stated. This is why I only play with friends and friends of friends who are good gamers, keeps my bad DM experiances to a minimum. I did that recently when a PLAYER said that. Girlfriend of a regular and she wanted to be the group leader and throw her weight around. When she went "I am the group leader and what I say goes!" I walked out. The DM asked me as I was packing "You are really leaving?" "Yep." Total silence as I left. Felt good.
Rabid Dire Wolverine 01-17-06, 07:35 PM	I hate it when this kind of thing happens. But cut them some slack in certain situations. For example. I got sucked into a munchkin game of level 25s duking it out with a bunch of monsters. I was getting bored of the lack of roleplaying, so i made a wizard who could cast an epic spell combining scientific and magical loopholes to completely annihilate the material plane. He looked for a god that could stop me, and eventually just pulled the "I'm the DM, antimatter doesn't exist in my game" bomb, completely ruining my 3.5 hundred thousand GP spell. But really, I don't blame him. But even that is marginally better than "I'm the DM, my word is law. I would say... five times. Max.
Juzzman 01-17-06, 07:52 PM	I did that recently when a PLAYER said that. Girlfriend of a regular and she wanted to be the group leader and throw her weight around. When she went "I am the group leader and what I say goes!" I walked out. The DM asked me as I was packing "You are really leaving?" "Yep." Total silence as I left. Felt good. I'm curious, why would that feel good? To me it says that you had no faith in your dm or friends, were unable to deal with a confontation yourself, and ran away. Rather than provide feedback, discuss, THEN leave if a compromise couldnt be reached, you just up and went. You let your friends down (interruption of campain as they recover or maybe look for another player), You let your gm down (took the option for him to deal with the situation out of his hands,showing a great deal of disrespect)you let yourself down (have to find a new gaming group and reconsile the issue with your friends, and avoided the issue) Avoiding problems by just upping and walking out of a game is one way to deal with things, but is as much a problem as what causes you to walk out, and is a self sustaining issue since you will never address it. Y will most likely find yourself doing it more and more until you run out of friends or invitations to game. I could be wrong, you might find a gaming group of such perfection that they never transgress your high level of standards and expectation, but for the rest of us, it's gotta be talk then walk FTW. Juzzman PS the fact that there was silence as you walked out, nobody asked you why you are going, or asked you not to leave, should be a tip off for you.
Dolomel 01-17-06, 08:17 PM	Talk with your DM, perhaps he NEEDS to know that it's not just his game, but also yours and that you all (I mean everyone at the table) have to have fun. It,s a game, a hell of a good one, so why play it when the game becomes boring? Would you ever play a video game if your bored after 5 mins of play? i say no. Why would you do that with D&D... I don't mean to drop D&D here, but if the game's boring, talk with the DM and if he dosent understand... **** off. Just my 2 cents. BTW, every human beign deserves a second chance. (sounds like the pally in me is gettin' out...lol)
Hasmead_Guy 01-17-06, 08:37 PM	I'm curious, why would that feel good? To me it says that you had no faith in your dm or friends, were unable to deal with a confontation yourself, and ran away. Rather than provide feedback, discuss, THEN leave if a compromise couldnt be reached, you just up and went. I agree with that. That's healthy. But the poster didn't mention any transgressions that might've lead up to walking out. It's possible there were other problems. Also, I'm sorry but there are people you just know aren't going to listen, and usually the jerk who snaps like this is an abrasive, one-sided coward. They mistake maturity for weakness and still try to dominate you. Contrary to an assertive approach, see what happens if you go "man, who the **** put you in charge?" or "what the Hell is your problem?" See what your DM does. Also, anybody else who feels oppressed will be emboldened to speak up.
TRCEttin 01-17-06, 08:43 PM	As said before, it depends on circumstance. If he's randomly disallowing you from doing things that are clearly doable because he doesn't want his precious plot ruined, and it's not fun, walk. On the other hand... Well, example works best. Recently only of my players wanted to play a changeling from Eberron. This in itself isn't a problem - none of its abilities, while useful, threaten to ruin the campaign. It's not as if it's an LA +0 race with Magic Circle Against Evil at will, natural claw attacks and spell resistance or anything. No, the problem is that it's my campaign setting and I don't really want to try and come up with a rational explanation for why they would exist and what their place in the world is when none of the players (in several campaigns, they've been to almost every corner of the world) have actually seen one before. I haven't made a decision yet, but we do have something else on the table -we can change its origins to "a bit of silver dragon in the character's ancestry" rather than "her ancestors humped dopplegangers" and keep its abilities intact - and if I say "that's how it is, because I'm the GM and I say so" then that's fine. Of course, if I said "No, you have to be an elf, here is her class and backstory, I'm the GM and I say so", walk away. :D
wmsmitty 01-17-06, 08:53 PM	The GM comes up with good stories that he likes to tell to us through Spot and Listen rolls. Maybe if we are lucky we encounter something that game. Mostly he just tells us what happens and how things work out. Then when we are lucky enough to have an encounter, he changes the combat rules to suit his story and changes the characters class abilities, on the fly and in combat. Usually he says that the player can not use that ability, even though he did not mention that during original cracter creation. Personally, I think you're just trying to inspire a conversation piece or just feel like ranting, becuase really...I know there are bad DM's out there, but this constitutes as a "Hammer head wannabe GEEK" who has no concept of D&D and the fact that you're seriously playing in this type of forum...really, really scares me. But...if in fact, you are truly experiencing this matter and need community support, two words....GET OUT. Find a capable DM, travel to the next state if you have to, but pleeeaaase...don't stick it out with this guy just because he's your best friend or mother's ex-fiancee or because its the only game in town or because "...we can only get together on certain days" yadayadayada....GET OUT! Run for your life! Hit the hills! No diplomacy check with this DM is worth it.
20goingon1232 01-17-06, 08:54 PM	I'm curious, why would that feel good? To me it says that you had no faith in your dm or friends, were unable to deal with a confontation yourself, and ran away. Rather than provide feedback, discuss, THEN leave if a compromise couldnt be reached, you just up and went. You let your friends down (interruption of campain as they recover or maybe look for another player), You let your gm down (took the option for him to deal with the situation out of his hands,showing a great deal of disrespect)you let yourself down (have to find a new gaming group and reconsile the issue with your friends, and avoided the issue) Avoiding problems by just upping and walking out of a game is one way to deal with things, but is as much a problem as what causes you to walk out, and is a self sustaining issue since you will never address it. Y will most likely find yourself doing it more and more until you run out of friends or invitations to game. I could be wrong, you might find a gaming group of such perfection that they never transgress your high level of standards and expectation, but for the rest of us, it's gotta be talk then walk FTW. Juzzman PS the fact that there was silence as you walked out, nobody asked you why you are going, or asked you not to leave, should be a tip off for you. Stunned silence more like it. As I said, the DM couldn't believe I was walking out. I had no respect for that group at that stage in time. They basically allowed a female to come in and say "I want to be the group leader" get away with it just like that. Now, I have never subscribed to stereotypes seriously (only in jest), but looking at those bunch of guys and how they reacted to a female... All sorts of stereotypical male gamer achetypes come roaring to the fore. There were a lot of previous little incidences leading up to that, but that was the main one that caused me to leave.
danzig138 01-17-06, 10:07 PM	BI'MTDMAISSOn first glance, I thought this might be a new internet way of saying "Bite My :censored:".
celtredleg 01-17-06, 10:19 PM	There should be a corolary to rule zero that if you are using it for other than a rules judgement, you might want to reconsider. Some groups need rule zero regularly to resolve the otherwise endless arguments about what happened where that can cripple some games. Other games never seem to need it at all. Right or wrog, if somebody stars changing my abilitys on the fly, I am out after the first discusion of why.
DarkWarriorKarg 01-18-06, 09:59 AM	1st time it gets done, GM/Dm gets a warning. There is no second warning. Wasting my time is a grievious insult. We get so little of it.
Twisted Puppy 01-18-06, 12:32 PM	My question: How many "I am the GM and I say that's how it is" statements should a player accept before leaving the game? So far it has been 2-3 per game for 3 games. Lots of variables. I'd say you take it until after you've talked to the GM about the problem and given him a chance to work on it and there has been no appreciable improvement. If you're talking about someone you value as a friend, you should give them the opportunity to improve. If they value you as a friend, they'll take your advice to heart. I've had things in my game which the players did not understand. In those cases I have learned not to use the "because I'm the DM" reply. The proper reply is, "yes, it is happening that way, and I promise there is an explanation for it that is completely within the rules. At this moment, in the middle of melee, however, your character does not have the time to consider what the reason is." On the other hand, I can see where his nixing abilities etc with no warning or explanation to force a story has got to be frustrating if it's happening all the time.
Minauros 01-18-06, 01:11 PM	I used to run games sort of like that myself. I had these "great" story archs all written out, I knew exactly what I wanted the players to do and when I wanted them to do it. I thought it would be a blast. When the players didn't do what I had scripted for them them I would try and find ways to push them into it. Eventually, they said forget it, and told me exactly why. Nowadays I try to DM with a much lighter touch. I will let the players go and do what they want, even if it means making up a whole new night's adventure on the fly. I occasionally bend the world to suit their ideas, just so they alway have something to go home feeling proud about, sending them off with a feeling of accomplishment. (Not the same as protecting them from their own stupidity—I do not believe a DM should ever do that.) My players are WAY happier now than they ever were back then. And it's because they left, and it's because they told me why. P.S. The collorary to this story was a DM I played with exactly once at a convention. I lasted in his game for maybe 30-45 minutes. He kept stopping people to tell them "No, your character wouldn't do that, you'd do this…" and then proceed to roll dice for your new action. Finally I got up from the table, said "Well, you obviously don't need me for this." and left. You wanted our support for your decision? You got it.
olshanski_home 01-18-06, 01:38 PM	I had no respect for that group at that stage in time. They basically allowed a female to come in and say "I want to be the group leader" get away with it just like that.Yeah, I hate those damn females thinking they can be the group leader. I'm glad you put her (and the group) in their place.
AlmightyDust 01-19-06, 01:50 AM	To the gentleman that suggested that I made this up, I promise that I had just experienced the game I described, on Sunday 01/15/06. Although it would have been a great conversation starter, as evidenced by the amount postings from the community members, I am not that clever most days. Thanks to everyone for their responses. I have really appreciated the variety. From the "Walk the F#$@ out", to "Give the guy a second chance, then walk the F#$@ out," they have been great. The GM in question has been a friend for almost 15 years, and we have played a lot of D & D. Problem is that he has not GM'd in many years. I have had to explain how lesser known rules work at times too. As I previously stated, he comes up with great stories, but he, like people new to GM'ing, see the story as the center of the game, not the players. I believe that my greatest failure in the first few games that I GM'd, was that I was too concerned with telling the story. Since then, I have improved letting the story flow through the players. I now tend to get the characters together, set up a focus, and let them decide the next course of action. Then, as they do stuff, I manipulate the world. The enjoyment factor for the players has gone way up. Also, my enjoyment with GM'ing has gone way up too. In the end, I will probably just let him know that I prefer a game that has more consistent rule applications. That while his story is interesting, the style of the game is not for me. Maybe he'll care, and maybe he won't, but at least we can all move forward. Thanks again.
Reis 01-19-06, 08:14 AM	the bottom line for me is the DM just needs to know the rules as well or better than any of his players. The reason DM's end up changing combat rules or NPC statistics on the fly (adding more hit points etc) is usually because some smart player in the campaign has thought of a way to circumvent a hard-thought out part of some adventure or beat a seemingly difficult opponent seemingly with ease. The fact is, as a DM with a little tinkering to how the challenge rating and experience/treasure reward system works, you can present combat and other challenges to even a large party of well-optimized characters. Every party has a weakness, even seemingly ultra powerful cheese like persistent spell incantatrixes, beholder mage/ruathar and vow of poverty monk/sacred fists has a easy to spot weakness (antimagic shell, greater dispelling, MDJ, etc) the flip side to "im the DM and its my game is this: it IS your game, however, if you have to break the rules to make things challenging, then you have missed one of the most important rules of being a good DM: Always do your homework.
MarkB 01-19-06, 10:01 AM	Well, example works best. Recently only of my players wanted to play a changeling from Eberron. This in itself isn't a problem - none of its abilities, while useful, threaten to ruin the campaign. It's not as if it's an LA +0 race with Magic Circle Against Evil at will, natural claw attacks and spell resistance or anything. No, the problem is that it's my campaign setting and I don't really want to try and come up with a rational explanation for why they would exist and what their place in the world is when none of the players (in several campaigns, they've been to almost every corner of the world) have actually seen one before. How do they know they've never seen one before? Maybe they've seen hundreds - or thousands. :D
20goingon1232 01-19-06, 03:45 PM	Yeah, I hate those damn females thinking they can be the group leader. There is thinking they can be leader and then there is DEMANDING to be leader or else. Perhaps you should take your chauvinist self away before you get accused of being sexist. Opps. Too late.
Ogmug 01-19-06, 04:13 PM	A DM is only a DM if he has players to DM for. There is only one reason to put up with a poor DM, and that is lack of another DM. A DM in training is better than a egomaniacle one (or one that can spell for that matter :D ). If your unhappy with his game, gracefully bow out and tell him, your looking for a different kind of game. If his people are leaving him he'll get the hint, or find new players. It's so hard to get a group of players together on a regular basis, why abuse them, or be abused. Play on people, Play on. And the corollary needs to be known as well. A player is a player only if he has a DM, else it is just playing with yourself, and we all know that leads to blindness. Regardless, there are times (which should be rare at best), when it is necessary for a dm to say "because I said so". Typically when a player wants to introduce something to a campaign that makes absolutely no sense (can i play an undead in the holy city of pelor?), or when the player wants to create an item that makes no sense (I want to make a gun). However if (as others have said above) it is an arbritrary decision based on the "story", then you should first try to talk it out, and if you can't fix the differences of opinion, shake hands and walk away, wishing them luck. Some of the people here are way.. .. .. too immature in their attitudes about "my way or the highway" on both sides.
Warboss Morgrum 01-19-06, 04:36 PM	Sheesh guys, feelin' awfully hostile aren't we? To the OP, in your particular case it sounds as if you aren't having any fun. Discuss this with your DM. If he insists that things will continue to arbitrarily change for little or no reason, then politely explain that your play style just don't work and excuse yourself from the game. I would really hate to play with a lot of the people who are telling you to leave as soon as the DM acts like a DM. Some things should be changed. A couple weeks ago, I used my "evil, abusive" DM powers to allow a PC to run over a tax collector with a cart. The closest "hard" rule would have been a bull-rush, but I felt like that would be lame for such a creative idea as the tax collector could have just chosen to avoid it. So I made up a reflex save DC real quick, he failed, and he was hit by the cart and killed (He was already beat up). One of my other players pointed out that it should have been a bull rush, and I replied "Yeah, but I want it to work this way just this once." Really how many of you would have walked out because I let you do something cool? And no, I wasn't showing favoritism to that PC (that character has since perished ;) ) A little polite, sane conversation can go a long way.
Reis 01-19-06, 07:00 PM	A couple weeks ago, I used my "evil, abusive" DM powers to allow a PC to run over a tax collector with a cart. The closest "hard" rule would have been a bull-rush, but I felt like that would be lame for such a creative idea as the tax collector could have just chosen to avoid it. So I made up a reflex save DC real quick, he failed, and he was hit by the cart and killed (He was already beat up). One of my other players pointed out that it should have been a bull rush, and I replied "Yeah, but I want it to work this way just this once." Really how many of you would have walked out because I let you do something cool? 1. thats what the overrun action is for 2. there are feats in the PHB called "improved overrun" and "Trample" which duplicate basically this same effect. If you allow your PC's to run someone over with a cart, you remove a lot of the desirability of these feats.
TRCEttin 01-19-06, 07:57 PM	How do they know they've never seen one before? Maybe they've seen hundreds - or thousands. :D One of my players in another campaign (set in the same world) tends to throw true seeing around a lot. >_>
Warboss Morgrum 01-20-06, 01:52 AM	Reis: True, but none of the players had them or have any interest in taking them. My point was that the DM can effect positive change by making something work "because he says it does." Many of the previous posters seem to think that any use of such power means the DM is some kind of egomaniacal monster, and that the game is doomed. Many of them said they would "walk out" after one such instance, which was why I asked if they would still feel wronged if it was a benevolent change.
Minos_Vol 01-20-06, 04:56 AM	In my opinion, if your DM doesn't have a good reason (whether it be from rules, or the plot in his campaign) bail, just leave, if not, your going to end up doing what I did for a long time and stick around in crappy campaigns. trust me it's easier to get another DM to take your character than you think.