Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KIDS 01-20-08, 03:22 PM	Hi everyone, I am gaming with a group of friends and as I like Tome of Battle very much, I would like to see it in our games and for use as either player as DM. Since it's a play by post board, we try to maintain cohesiveness and all use the same sources. People are generally friendly, don't have clear ideas of what is optimization and are vary of powergaming, though in some strange ways. This of course doesn't mean no one doesn't play druids or min-maxxed rogues or barbarians or something; all the opposite; most optimized builds do have a place, just new sources don't. There is a slight aura of general distrust towards new sources (currently approved are PHB, PHB2, Complete Warrior/Divine/Adventurer/Arcane). Of late, during a process where some additional books were refused to be added to our list (including Tome of Battle which I pushed for eagerly), a mention came up that "ToB is just too much new stuff, like alternate combat system"). Of all the new books, only Complete Mage made it to the approval phase. So anyways, I think ToB is a great book and all of my characters could become better in mechanical and roleplaying sense with access to it. The book is refused on the grounds of "too much stuff". I have two questions: a) how can you explain to someone that ToB is a very simple book? I myself was very impressed with how a massive number of concepts could be made using only those 3 classes and 245 maneuvers, and the rules explaining maneuvers took only several pages and thought it simple. How do I explain it to them? Heck, just magic overview section in PHB is twice the pages and twice as muddy, but pointing that out will only lead to "it's different" rebuke. b) is ToB actually a simple book? I might be biased but as said, it seems to me a simple matter of reading a total of 3 pages which describe what a maneuver is and what a stance is. Is it so far from the current system or more complicated than I'm thinking? Have you had any experiences with integrating ToB into your own groups? Thanks!
Kouk 01-20-08, 04:24 PM	The concept is perhaps not terribly difficult, to understand the per-encounter, maneuvers, etc. The more complicated part is keeping track of what all the different abilities do, especially since many of the maneuver names are not descriptive of what they do exactly. Most of us have limits of how many rules and things we can keep straight in our heads (especially as we get older) so the more daunting part is trying to know what happens when a player pulls out a maneuver, or has some recovery system that is based on randomness (Crusader would likely be a bad play-by-post character). This is similar to why Psionics are disallowed from many games. It isn't that people all feel that it is overpowered, it is just an alternate system of doing things that the players and DM have to understand, or else entirely trust the player using the source (and it is most likely just one player) is never mistaken. I like ToB myself and I allow it, but I almost always have to ask a player, "OK, you enter Dancing Blade Form stance. What does that do again?" or, "OK, you use Crushing Weight of the Mountain. Is that the one that does 2d6 extra damage, or the Grappling one?" They are kind of harder to remember than "Fireball" or "Haste", at least for me.
Salla 01-20-08, 05:28 PM	Just head out to Wal-Mart and buy a pack of Index Cards. Write down what the maneuvers do on them (this also works well for feats and frequently-used spells ... never flip through a book again!). This also helps because you can put your readied maneuvers in front of you face-up, your unreadied maneuvers away (in a folder or somesuch), then flip the maneuvers upside-down to show that they've been used. One nice thing about D&D's rules being so compartmentalized is that you only have to worry about the rules that you're making use of. For example, I never take Cleave. I don't have to worry about what triggers a Cleave or doesn't, because I simply don't have to care. You can just bone up on the rules that affect your character instead of having to memorize everything. This does, however, require a DM who is at least conversant and familiar with the rules, and requires you to be a trustworthy player and follow those rules. I tend to be 'DM-friendly' with this sort of thing (in that I'm the local 'book-lord') by saying what it does when I do it ("I slide into Assassin's Stance, giving me two dice of Sneak Attack ..."). I do this with spells, too. It always bugs me when a player just says 'I cast X', and closes the book, requiring him to look it back up when I ask about saves or spell resistance ...
Grod_The_Giant 01-20-08, 06:57 PM	I totally agree with the index card thing. Works like they were designed that way, especially with the crusader (seriously, I can't imagine playing that with the manuvers just written down). If one player wants to use ToB for a play-by-post game, he probably should type up a list of his manuvers and what they do and send it to the DM.
Cifer 01-20-08, 08:02 PM	a) how can you explain to someone that ToB is a very simple book? "It's got less pages than the magic system and half of its abilities (the maneuvers) are mechanically pretty much spells that can be recovered a little faster" should be a good start. To type up the mechanics in a few sentences: "Generally, you have an assortment of readied maneuvers and stances. Think of the maneuvers as prepared spells. There are strikes that can be accessed with a standard action and then unfold their effect, boosts that are swift actions and can enhance other maneuvers or normal actions and counters which are immediate actions designed to foil your enemies' actions. Depending on your class, how many maneuvers you have and how you get them back differs. Stances are 'buffs' that are always on. You can use the effect of one stance, but change between stances with a swift action. Both stances and maneuvers are grouped into disciplines (think schools of magic) and levels from 1 to 9. They have requirements in the form of other maneuvers so that in order to learn a level 3 maneuver of discipline X, you need to already have 2 maneuvers of the same discipline. Like sorcerers, martial classes can forget certain maneuvers for others and like wizards, they don't have all their maneuvers always at their disposal." In a play-by-post, it gets even easier - just type the description of your maneuvers, save it to your hard drive and copy&paste it to the posts where you use them.
MindBullets 01-29-08, 03:24 PM	They also have these wonderful cards for you to download, very simple...might be able to cut down a bit on what Cifer just wrote. Cards can be found here, don't know how to put in a hyperlink because I'm dumb. www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a
Zombie_Babies 01-29-08, 03:48 PM	You can't explain it to those unwilling to read it. They do not want to "get it". All you can do is what you have been. Explain things as simply as possible and continue to be patient and non-combative. I also like and use the ToB as a player and DM. Great stuff. I never used index cards for maneuvers for Warblades and Swordsages but I think it is a must for Crusaders. All that randomness benefits from a physical representation. A lot of people that first look at the book feel that it's layout makes it difficult to find things. I hated looking through it when I first started using it. The way it is set up is too sectional. It should have been done like the spells in the PHB- by level with school attached at the top. Much simpler. Now that I have used it more, however, I have no trouble navigating it. It is a small issue but one I think you may want to keep in mind as you try to get your fellow players to look into the ToB.
kelcimer 01-29-08, 04:24 PM	a) how can you explain to someone that ToB is a very simple book? I myself was very impressed with how a massive number of concepts could be made using only those 3 classes and 245 maneuvers Not having read ToB, but that sure did jump out at me. I think that might have something to do with it.
Zombie_Babies 01-29-08, 04:35 PM	Not having read ToB, but that sure did jump out at me. I think that might have something to do with it. Umm. Aren't there like a bajillion and one spells, though? Really, the amount of maneuvers is small. Especially when you consider how few you actually get. Even Swordsages, who get the most, are only around 24, IIRC at level 20. Not too bad. Plus it's not like they act as buffs that you need to keep track of. A lvl 20 wizard will have how many spells active at all times, again? At most a level 20 Warblade can have two continual effects (stances) up at once. A lvl 20 Wizard can top that with one level of spells. There are nowhere near as many things to keep track of as a martial adept when compared to a wizard, sorceror, priest or druid. If you don't want to learn the entire list by heart, why not just ask the person playing the adept to explain the very few maneuvers and stances they have?
wonlee76 01-29-08, 04:43 PM	So anyways, I think ToB is a great book and all of my characters could become better in mechanical and roleplaying sense with access to it. The book is refused on the grounds of "too much stuff". I have two questions: I agree its a great book but I very much doubt that ToB is the only way to make your PC better in a roleplaying sense. Mechanically, sure... Roleplaying wise? I don't see anything in ToB that "opens up" new avenues of RPing to explore to be quite frank. I want something with the "flare" of ToB, I could accomplish this with other books in different methods (Duskblade, Fighter/Mage gish type, etc.). a) how can you explain to someone that ToB is a very simple book? I myself was very impressed with how a massive number of concepts could be made using only those 3 classes and 245 maneuvers, and the rules explaining maneuvers took only several pages and thought it simple. How do I explain it to them? Heck, just magic overview section in PHB is twice the pages and twice as muddy, but pointing that out will only lead to "it's different" rebuke. You could try "teaching" the rules or running a game that uses these rules. I agree ToB is not extremely complicated but it does introduce a new set of rules. As someone mentioned before, the trickier part is remembering what all those maneuvers and stances do. It does help to keep a set of index cards for that stuff of course (and there is a handy .pdf file on the WOTC web site with all of the maneuvers and stances in "card" format). By the same token, just because its "short" does not mean its easy to understand. Intuitively, the stuff in ToB is a pretty extreme departure from the core rules and prior editions of D&D so it takes some getting used to. And please don't compare ToB with magic... the main difference between the PHB and ToB is PHB is mandatory collection of rules to actually run a game. Sure, the magic section and whatnot may be "long" but considering it sets up the foundation for running a game, its not a fair comparison. Can you run a D&D game without the PHB... Nope (but you could cut out portions of the PHB but still need a bulk of the book to have some basis to run the game). Can you run a D&D game without ToB... Yup. b) is ToB actually a simple book? I might be biased but as said, it seems to me a simple matter of reading a total of 3 pages which describe what a maneuver is and what a stance is. Is it so far from the current system or more complicated than I'm thinking? Have you had any experiences with integrating ToB into your own groups? It is not as simple as you make it out to be. Its not that complicated either but its not as easy as you say. I know it took me about a month of reading and running a game of ToB to get a pretty firm grasp of the nuances within the book. I tend to have baddies use similar tactics and techniques as PCs so its fun to watch the sheer horror in the player's eyes when they meet the Orc Barbarian/Warblade or what have you. :)
KIDS 01-29-08, 06:19 PM	Hmmmm, well my original opinion of "simple" comes from the fact that all of its options are inside maneuvers, and learning what a maneuver is and how it can be gained/recovered is a total of 2 pages. Just like spells, which are also streamlined that way... but I see the point that it can easily look different. About roleplaying, if you mean character as in basic personality, nope, I admit ToB has nothing in that regard. More believable, differentiated and detailed, in terms that whatever 20 different techniques aren't all represented by a point of BAB - and thus sparking ideas for what kind of a person someone who learned them might be or hail from? Yep. Now I can do that without ToB too (and do), but I like differentiating stuff and most importanly, this gives me the motivation to do so. I'll continue gently prodding for the book I suppose, in the meantime thanks everyone for your opinions! :)
Leo 01-29-08, 11:12 PM	You've got to also think of it this way: 1-Most other classes do 2 actions per turn: a move and a standard. There are very few swift spells and effects, and even fewer are worth it. 2-ToB classes however have a lot of good swift options. They also have all those counter attacks to use during enemy turns, so they end up doing twice more actions than anyone else. 3-So, especially in a play by post game, this will drag out combat. The ToB guy will attack and move. It may hold up his swift action to do something after attacking, like switching to another stance depending on the result of the attack. Then the DM will direct the monsters, and the ToB guy will have to interrupt him with his counter whatever, and the DM will need to stop in the middle of action and think what to do now. In a regular game this isn't that bad. In play by post it is a killer. When I play by post battles normally it goes by turns, player 1 player 2 player 3 player 4, DM, restart, and things go smoothly. However with ToB you will be interrupting the action half the time, possibly making the game drag out to a stall as everybody has to wait if the ToB guy doesn't want to do one of his fancy tricks.
Cifer 01-30-08, 08:06 AM	@Leo 2-ToB classes however have a lot of good swift options. They also have all those counter attacks to use during enemy turns, so they end up doing twice more actions than anyone else. You're forgetting AoOs there, the "little man's Counter". Oh, and you're forgetting Saves which would also have to be rolled by anyone and may change the outcome of a spell and the subsequent actions of the caster. In general, I very much doubt a ToB char has two times as many actions.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 01-30-08, 09:27 AM	2-ToB classes however have a lot of good swift options. They also have all those counter attacks to use during enemy turns, so they end up doing twice more actions than anyone else. You cannot use an immediate action if you already used a swift action the same round.
Belkar 01-30-08, 10:12 AM	I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, KIDS. Let me start by saying that I love ToB. Love. It. Having said that - it says in black and white in the intro chapter of the book that the designers recommend running this in a world with no magic. The system is so "different" - and this is one reason. The other is that it's just soooo much information. I ran a ToB only game last year - had a blast. The ToB classes and proper manuever selection can let you replace any martial oriented PHB class. It was great. My 2cp.
wonlee76 01-30-08, 10:14 AM	You cannot use an immediate action if you already used a swift action the same round. I believe you if you use an immediate action, you can't use your swift action for the next round. So it is possible to do a Standard, Swift and Immediate action. Its just the next round, you got no Swift action to work with.
Pathanus 01-30-08, 07:05 PM	As previously posted, stat cards are almost a must to avoid erasing constantly on any other type of recording method. (3 piles, 1 stance, 1 avail maneauvers, 1 used/ungranted maneuvers) I think it it much more accepted as a new mechanic than psionics (especially for those who have been playing since 2e) in gaming groups and is balanced. The only severe problems are all CharOp board available, if your group isn't into super strong characters; namely Shadow Pouncing (with or without Stormguard Warrior feat), Lockdown/Crackdown Crusaders, and RKV Swift Action recovery. It has many more swift action options available to characters without spell lists or MIC (not on your list of available sources) items to make melee characters (that aren't CoDzilla's and/or Wild Shapers) contribute more. With the overall limited number of stances and maneuvers available to a ToB character (and ones which you will be using frequently) it should be no problem for every player in the group to memorize which things do what. Considering not every player is going to use ToB stuff it will likely only affect a few players of the PBP and I recommend at least trying it for a while and having another character as backup if the DM decides it is negatively affecting his game.
Cifer 01-30-08, 07:29 PM	(that aren't CoDzilla's and/or Wild Shapers) One would think most Wild Shapers are CoDzillas, wouldn't one?
Pathanus 01-30-08, 08:54 PM	One would think most Wild Shapers are CoDzillas, wouldn't one? One would unless the Druid is focusing on things like Warshaper and/or Master of Many Forms which is why I included both, not so much a divine caster at that point.