how needed is a Rogue in a party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

how needed is a Rogue in a party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Roreck
06-05-05, 02:55 PM ok here is the situation in my group we have no way of finding or disabling traps other than the patended "send in the meat-shield first" an idea that does not sit well with the meat shield. No one in the group seems willing to multiclass Rogue due to differences in character concept, or the arguement that finding traps and disabling them is not really important.

Now I play a wizard and it would not be a streach for my character to multiclass rogue (he is a sneaky wizard who is a kelpto). but I really don't want to give up my spells per day progression. Should I just bite the bullet and multiclass or just go without a rogue. Basically I need to know who important a rogue is or we will have to go with the "Send the meat-shield first" plan.

So what are thoughts how important is a rogue in a party?
Torack
06-05-05, 03:04 PM If you're going the klepto route, Arcane Trickster is the PrC for you...and you need rogue levels to do it.

Go for it. Pick up 3 rogue levels, 5 Wizard levels and get fullcaster/Sneak Attack progression with the PrC.
Shocker250
06-05-05, 03:39 PM well... the usefullness of the rogue will depend on what kind of campaign you will have. Now, keep in mind, there may be exceptions, but if u are aware that you campaign will have at least a little bit of dungeon finding and pillaging, then you will need a rogue. Likewise, if u know ur going to be going to cursed old abandoned castles, caves, pyramids, or be searching for the pirates lost treasure. In those scenarios you run a high risk of encountering traps. And having a rogue, or even a scout or ninja would be helpful. While scout isn't the most ideal class for trapfinding and disabling, if u have a human in the party, who wont get hit with XP penalty, it will be worth it.

However, if you are aware that your campaign will be located in the city, trying to destroy the theives guild, then u have a better chance on NOT encountering traps. U could easily forego the rogue in that kinda campaign, and many others. Ones where you go, dragon hunting, or ... umm, trying to find a PCs lost twin brother. More or less, any campaign that has u spend a large significant portion of ur time in a populated city, or jungle/monster infested areas will have less traps.

Is a rogue necessary?? no.... is it damn helpful?... YES Just because it might help, keep in mind this story i have... i was a ninja, I chose it cuz i KNEW that there were no trap finders in the party. We come to a hallway we know is booby traped. So we go down, and i do constant searches... I fail each one. Then successfuly disable it. But the ones i did suceed on finding, i failed the disable check and set them off anyways. Moral of the story, the ninja acted like a dummy and set off all the traps.

If you guys dont get a rogue, u can still deal with traps. Use summon Monster and let that stupid Dire Rat that you summoned go through thehallway first, to set off many potential traps... cast knock or ghost hand to open tresure chests and doors. NOrmal doors can be delt with unseen servant. That is also good on chests and setting off certain traps. When u come upon a locked door, ..umm... meat shield bust it down. Take the damage from the traps.
Kalli
06-05-05, 03:41 PM Okay, it might be because it's the first class I ever played, or because I like the trap disarming and sneaky stealth route, but I think rogues are great. (Correction: They're as good as the player plays 'em. If you aren't really the rogue-PC type, your mileage will vary.)

Consider: In exchange for a dent in your spell progression, you get the ability to disarm magical traps (disarm trap is cross-class, but only rogues - or those with the "Trapfinding" class ability - can disable magical ones), possibly a little extra HP boost, and if you have a crossbow you can take advantage of that sneak attack without putting yourself at risk, too. That's just for one level.

If you take a second level, you get evasion, which only works with light or no armor to begin with. A third level boosts your sneak attack, plus you now have +1 to Reflex saves and AC against traps (and at this point, hopefully, since you're disarming traps your comrades won't decide to make you trap fodder, heheh). And even if you don't go with the aforementioned Arcane Trickster PrC - which I know nothing about, sorry - you'll still be able to access 9th-level spells by the time you get to level 20, if your campaign goes that high.

Personally, I'd say go for it. It's a tradeoff, but I think it's fair. At the very least, your tanker will thank you.
Lord Gwydion
06-05-05, 08:37 PM Well, if no one wants to play a Rogue or multiclass to pick up a few levels, that's where spells come in. A well prepared Wizard (hint hint), with some help from a Cleric or Druid, can deal with traps. You're more limited than you are with a Rogue (you shouldn't spend all your spells per day on traps), but you can at least detect/defuse/bypass the important ones.

Some spells can be used to find, bypass, or eliminate the traps. Also, if you must go the "send in the meat shield" route, BUFF SPELLS are his friend. Use magic to get his AC, Reflex and Fort saves as high as possible so he has the best chances of surviving the traps he runs into.

Also, if your group is high enough (level 6+), think about getting Leadership and a Rogue cohort.
braindead345
06-06-05, 04:24 AM I am a strong believer in rogues, they definitely have their uses. However, you need to understand that rogues are the opposite of spell casters and straight fighters.

Rogues rely on skills, not feats. Can you survive without a rogue? Absolutely-if you have a ranger, barbarian, or bard in the group. They all have more skills than your typical spell slinger, paladin, or fighter and can pick up ranks in most rogue class-skills.

If you don't want to invest the time in becoming a rogue, there are spells which will help you in most instances and mundane tools to do the rest. A crowbar or axe will usually work just as well as an open locks check-provided that you don't care about using the lock again. The problem is if you bog your memorized spell list with Detect Trap spells, you won't have enough combat spells memorize. Also, the spells' duration is just too short to keep casting it effectively.

Just remember that the next trap sprung could easily pick off the middle or end of the marching order. Personally, I think its in your best interests to pick a few levels in rogue to keep alive. An added plus is the extra hit points.
punching bag
06-06-05, 07:30 AM I've got a question about the multiclassed rogue route:

O.K. Sure you can dip into rogue for a few levels, but when you level up your primary class, don't you have to buy ranks in "disable device" as a cross class skill? Most traps have DC's in the low 20's and magical ones start at DC25. How do you keep up with the increasing DC's, considering that you can't "take 20" on a disable device check?
amethal
06-06-05, 07:41 AM I've got a question about the multiclassed rogue route:

O.K. Sure you can dip into rogue for a few levels, but when you level up your primary class, don't you have to buy ranks in "disable device" as a cross class skill? Most traps have DC's in the low 20's and magical ones start at DC25. How do you keep up with the increasing DC's, considering that you can't "take 20" on a disable device check?The hard part is normally finding the trap in the first place, and only rogues can find most traps.

Once you've found the trap, you can usually figure out a way to set it off from (what you hope is) a safe distance.

A party with spellcasters can use summoned monsters to set off traps - it doesn't need to be a party member!
Torack
06-06-05, 08:42 AM From the SRD:
Skills

If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.

Alternatively you could go for the Arcane Trickster PrC which has Disable Device on its class skill list.
punching bag
06-06-05, 08:47 AM Hmm. Maybe I'm not understanding this right. The quote from the SRD gives us the Max ranks that a multiclassed character can have in the skill, but it doesn't say what cost these skills take.

EG. I take 1st level in rogue. Disable device is a class skill with max ranks = to 4. Now I take a level in wizard. Now, according to the SRD, disable device can have max ranks of 5 (because it is on the combined "class list").

But, does it cost me 2 points or 1 point to buy a rank in Disable Device??
Nom
06-06-05, 08:59 AM 2 points. The key quote is "Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3.". Purchase cost is based on the current class. Max rank is level +3 if it's a class skill for any class you have.

Note that the smart way of doing a rogue multiclass is to pick up the levels in stages. Get to level 2 quickly, then add another level every few levels when you need to top up your skill points. Don't forget that every level you don't take in rogue adjusts the number of skills you can max out.

If you go straight rogue, you can max 8+Int skills. If 1 per 2, this is halved (4+Int/2). If 1 per 3, it is 1/3 (~ 3). Further, it is almost always beneficial to take Rogue at 1st level if you plan a Rogue multiclass.
Phrennzy
06-06-05, 09:54 AM I don't like taking on a Rogue class just because there isn't a rogue in the party.

However, if you don't, you are limited in your ways of dealing with traps.

Find Traps
Divination
Level: Clr 2
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level
You gain intuitive insight into the workings of traps. You can use the Search skill to detect traps just as a rogue can. In addition, you gain an insight bonus equal to one-half your caster level (maximum +10) on Search checks made to find traps while the spell is in effect.
Note that find traps grants no ability to disable the traps that you may find.

You can use that to find them, then maybe trigger them Unseen Servant or Mage Hand, depending on the trap.

Also, Unseen Servant and Mage Hand make great chest openers - keeps you at a relatively safe distance.

There is also:

Chime of Opening: A chime of opening is a hollow mithral tube about 1 foot long. When struck, it sends forth magical vibrations that cause locks, lids, doors, valves, and portals to open. The device functions against normal bars, shackles, chains, bolts, and so on. A chime of opening also automatically dispels a hold portal spell or even an arcane lock cast by a wizard of lower than 15th level.
The chime must be pointed at the item or gate to be loosed or opened (which must be visible and known to the user). The chime is then struck, a clear tone rings forth, and in 1 round the target lock is unlocked, the shackle is loosed, the secret door is opened, or the lid of the chest is lifted. Each sounding only opens one form of locking, so if a chest is chained, padlocked, locked, and arcane locked, it takes four uses of a chime of opening to get it open. A silence spell negates the power of the device. A brand-new chime can be used a total of ten times before it cracks and becomes useless.
Moderate transmutation; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, knock; Price 3,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Another tact would to be to talk with the DM and explain that no one wants to take a level in rogue, and could he maybe please reduce the number of traps from the game. I mean really, traps without a rogue serve only to severly slow down the game as the party constantly falls back to heal.
Thanatos02
06-06-05, 10:31 AM There are some classes that can replace a Rogue in the party if need be, and there are options for the party if nobody wishes to be one.

A party might hire a Rogue or an Expert that specializes in locks and traps.

Scouts, Ninja, Wizards and Sorcerers, certain Clerics, and Bards can sometimes take over for Rogues. Of course, nothing beats a Rogue for dungeon trap disarming, but taking the right Feats and skills, and equipping yourself properly means you can still adventure.

I mean, my party functions without a Cleric, so it can be done.

Consider spells like Detect Trap, Detect Snares, Open/Close, Mage Hand, Shatter, Invisibility, Silence, Darkness, Jump, Spider Climb, or Alter Self to replicate the Rogue's seakiness or access-related skills.
Thorak
06-06-05, 10:37 AM There's also oodles of ways to get around even the need for a Rogue.

For instance, deliberately setting off traps, while protected. Get a Tower Shield, and a bent crowbar. Wedge lids off chests and such while under total cover. Or use 10 foot poles to push tripwires. Etc, etc.

Also, just bypass the places people put traps. Got a lock you're pretty sure is trapped? Ask which way the door opens, out or in. If it's in, the hinges are on your side. Break em. Now the door opens from the "wrong" side, without monkeying with the lock. If it opens out, then ask if it's made of wood. If so, an axe does wonders. Same for chests; who needs to worry about a lock, when a couple chops'll take you right through the top of it anyway?

Basically, Sunder the snot out of everything that gets in your way. It's inanimate and isn't resisting.

Does this mean Rogues are useless? God no. But they're hardly necessary. It's like any class, each helps the party, but not a one of them is absolutely needed.
kam_Islash
06-06-05, 11:49 AM Not to mention sneak attack damage.

///
MarkB
06-06-05, 12:44 PM There are some classes that can replace a Rogue in the party if need be, and there are options for the party if nobody wishes to be one.

A party might hire a Rogue or an Expert that specializes in locks and traps.

Scouts, Ninja, Wizards and Sorcerers, certain Clerics, and Bards can sometimes take over for Rogues. Of course, nothing beats a Rogue for dungeon trap disarming, but taking the right Feats and skills, and equipping yourself properly means you can still adventure.
Artificers also get the Rogue's trapfinding ability, and have both Search and Disable Device as class skills. With access to skill-boosting infusions and cheap scrolls and other magic items, they make pretty good trap-busters.

And there's always the old standby of using summoned creatures to trip the traps.
Lord Gwydion
06-06-05, 08:02 PM Back when I was playing B/E/C/M D&D, we were always coming across wands of trap detection. Handy little items. Think a door or chest might be trapped? No Thief around? Use the wand.

Once it was known if it was trapped or not, we could find a way to deal with it without a Thief if necessary. It was better having the Thief around, but we did alright when there wasn't one.
Yruc
06-07-05, 01:45 AM summon animal/monster

10' pole

another party member's familar / animal companion (think carrot on a stick with the 10' pole) or tied to the end of the 10' pole and being lead in front of the party, or just toss said familar / animal companion down a cooridor you think might be trapped...

You shouldn't have to sacrifice alone, could as a party hire an NPC rogue or someone take the leadership feat and get a cohort who is a rogue.
Dunelord
06-07-05, 02:07 AM Just summon a monster that you have walk in front of the part. It won't even really get hurt.
Dragonsblood
06-07-05, 03:51 AM Unseen Servant can be used to spring many traps, just not heavy pressure plate traps. It can open doors, chests, and pick up objects. It even suggests this use in the spell discription. The main advantages are that it's hard to kill, and lasts 1 hour/level vs Summon Monster which lasts a matter of seconds.

Mage Hand and Open/Close can be used for unlocked chests, doors, and objects on pedistals (bump the magic item with a stone controlled by mage hand).

Detect Magic should let you know if there is a magical trap in the spells range.
The Man from Uncle
06-07-05, 03:59 AM Hmm...well, i'd probably advise in your case not to multiclass. Truth is, even if you do mulitclass now, you'll still be a pretty lousy rogue.

To their credit though I think that rogues are one of the most versatile classes in the game. A high level rogue can cast spells from wands (acting as both healer and artillary), make a hugh difference in combat with a few well aimed sneak attacks, be a swiss army knife of skills and thats before you even think about trap finding and sneaking around.
yonman
06-07-05, 12:00 PM A Rogue isn't anymore necessary than a Cleric....but it certainly makes things EASIER.

Discuss it with your party and use alternative methods described above.
The Axeman
06-07-05, 01:16 PM our groups seem to die more without a rogue..but they aren't nearly as important as a cleric.
angryman
06-07-05, 10:55 PM I find rogues become a little subpar at high levels. Maybe my friends just make bad rogues, but high level traps tend to be somehow avoidable- there just can't be too many 30d6 spear traps before someone calls shenannigans. They die too easily; one sneak attack and the enemy (frost giant jarl, marilith) pounds him to mush. Fort saves and Will saves are imo the two most important, and they lack both. Their skills are great, but honestly I'd rather have another cleric or wizard in the party.
OctoberRaven
06-07-05, 11:50 PM A bard can replace almost anything. If someone joins the game, let them choose between bard and rogue, and explain to him the situation. This way you get what you need and still give him at least a bit of a choice in class.

Also Clerics have a few options. Divination, controlling an undead (For evil some neutral clerics), summoning a monster as a canary of sorts, and that's just off the top of my head. Detect magic can help finding magical traps, followed by dispelling it.

If you have a golem handy, even better.

10-foot-poles can come in handy too, and sometimes not even that (I consider a tripwire to have 1 AC with +19 against ranged weapons).

If you want to make a rogue PC, go ahead, in the end it's better than using all these options.

As an analogy, a monk needs nothing but his/her clothing to suceed in a fight.
But Shurikens help.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Roreck 06-05-05, 02:55 PM	ok here is the situation in my group we have no way of finding or disabling traps other than the patended "send in the meat-shield first" an idea that does not sit well with the meat shield. No one in the group seems willing to multiclass Rogue due to differences in character concept, or the arguement that finding traps and disabling them is not really important. Now I play a wizard and it would not be a streach for my character to multiclass rogue (he is a sneaky wizard who is a kelpto). but I really don't want to give up my spells per day progression. Should I just bite the bullet and multiclass or just go without a rogue. Basically I need to know who important a rogue is or we will have to go with the "Send the meat-shield first" plan. So what are thoughts how important is a rogue in a party?
Torack 06-05-05, 03:04 PM	If you're going the klepto route, Arcane Trickster is the PrC for you...and you need rogue levels to do it. Go for it. Pick up 3 rogue levels, 5 Wizard levels and get fullcaster/Sneak Attack progression with the PrC.
Shocker250 06-05-05, 03:39 PM	well... the usefullness of the rogue will depend on what kind of campaign you will have. Now, keep in mind, there may be exceptions, but if u are aware that you campaign will have at least a little bit of dungeon finding and pillaging, then you will need a rogue. Likewise, if u know ur going to be going to cursed old abandoned castles, caves, pyramids, or be searching for the pirates lost treasure. In those scenarios you run a high risk of encountering traps. And having a rogue, or even a scout or ninja would be helpful. While scout isn't the most ideal class for trapfinding and disabling, if u have a human in the party, who wont get hit with XP penalty, it will be worth it. However, if you are aware that your campaign will be located in the city, trying to destroy the theives guild, then u have a better chance on NOT encountering traps. U could easily forego the rogue in that kinda campaign, and many others. Ones where you go, dragon hunting, or ... umm, trying to find a PCs lost twin brother. More or less, any campaign that has u spend a large significant portion of ur time in a populated city, or jungle/monster infested areas will have less traps. Is a rogue necessary?? no.... is it damn helpful?... YES Just because it might help, keep in mind this story i have... i was a ninja, I chose it cuz i KNEW that there were no trap finders in the party. We come to a hallway we know is booby traped. So we go down, and i do constant searches... I fail each one. Then successfuly disable it. But the ones i did suceed on finding, i failed the disable check and set them off anyways. Moral of the story, the ninja acted like a dummy and set off all the traps. If you guys dont get a rogue, u can still deal with traps. Use summon Monster and let that stupid Dire Rat that you summoned go through thehallway first, to set off many potential traps... cast knock or ghost hand to open tresure chests and doors. NOrmal doors can be delt with unseen servant. That is also good on chests and setting off certain traps. When u come upon a locked door, ..umm... meat shield bust it down. Take the damage from the traps.
Kalli 06-05-05, 03:41 PM	Okay, it might be because it's the first class I ever played, or because I like the trap disarming and sneaky stealth route, but I think rogues are great. (Correction: They're as good as the player plays 'em. If you aren't really the rogue-PC type, your mileage will vary.) Consider: In exchange for a dent in your spell progression, you get the ability to disarm magical traps (disarm trap is cross-class, but only rogues - or those with the "Trapfinding" class ability - can disable magical ones), possibly a little extra HP boost, and if you have a crossbow you can take advantage of that sneak attack without putting yourself at risk, too. That's just for one level. If you take a second level, you get evasion, which only works with light or no armor to begin with. A third level boosts your sneak attack, plus you now have +1 to Reflex saves and AC against traps (and at this point, hopefully, since you're disarming traps your comrades won't decide to make you trap fodder, heheh). And even if you don't go with the aforementioned Arcane Trickster PrC - which I know nothing about, sorry - you'll still be able to access 9th-level spells by the time you get to level 20, if your campaign goes that high. Personally, I'd say go for it. It's a tradeoff, but I think it's fair. At the very least, your tanker will thank you.
Lord Gwydion 06-05-05, 08:37 PM	Well, if no one wants to play a Rogue or multiclass to pick up a few levels, that's where spells come in. A well prepared Wizard (hint hint), with some help from a Cleric or Druid, can deal with traps. You're more limited than you are with a Rogue (you shouldn't spend all your spells per day on traps), but you can at least detect/defuse/bypass the important ones. Some spells can be used to find, bypass, or eliminate the traps. Also, if you must go the "send in the meat shield" route, BUFF SPELLS are his friend. Use magic to get his AC, Reflex and Fort saves as high as possible so he has the best chances of surviving the traps he runs into. Also, if your group is high enough (level 6+), think about getting Leadership and a Rogue cohort.
braindead345 06-06-05, 04:24 AM	I am a strong believer in rogues, they definitely have their uses. However, you need to understand that rogues are the opposite of spell casters and straight fighters. Rogues rely on skills, not feats. Can you survive without a rogue? Absolutely-if you have a ranger, barbarian, or bard in the group. They all have more skills than your typical spell slinger, paladin, or fighter and can pick up ranks in most rogue class-skills. If you don't want to invest the time in becoming a rogue, there are spells which will help you in most instances and mundane tools to do the rest. A crowbar or axe will usually work just as well as an open locks check-provided that you don't care about using the lock again. The problem is if you bog your memorized spell list with Detect Trap spells, you won't have enough combat spells memorize. Also, the spells' duration is just too short to keep casting it effectively. Just remember that the next trap sprung could easily pick off the middle or end of the marching order. Personally, I think its in your best interests to pick a few levels in rogue to keep alive. An added plus is the extra hit points.
punching bag 06-06-05, 07:30 AM	I've got a question about the multiclassed rogue route: O.K. Sure you can dip into rogue for a few levels, but when you level up your primary class, don't you have to buy ranks in "disable device" as a cross class skill? Most traps have DC's in the low 20's and magical ones start at DC25. How do you keep up with the increasing DC's, considering that you can't "take 20" on a disable device check?
amethal 06-06-05, 07:41 AM	I've got a question about the multiclassed rogue route: O.K. Sure you can dip into rogue for a few levels, but when you level up your primary class, don't you have to buy ranks in "disable device" as a cross class skill? Most traps have DC's in the low 20's and magical ones start at DC25. How do you keep up with the increasing DC's, considering that you can't "take 20" on a disable device check?The hard part is normally finding the trap in the first place, and only rogues can find most traps. Once you've found the trap, you can usually figure out a way to set it off from (what you hope is) a safe distance. A party with spellcasters can use summoned monsters to set off traps - it doesn't need to be a party member!
Torack 06-06-05, 08:42 AM	From the SRD: Skills If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.) If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill. Alternatively you could go for the Arcane Trickster PrC which has Disable Device on its class skill list.
punching bag 06-06-05, 08:47 AM	Hmm. Maybe I'm not understanding this right. The quote from the SRD gives us the Max ranks that a multiclassed character can have in the skill, but it doesn't say what cost these skills take. EG. I take 1st level in rogue. Disable device is a class skill with max ranks = to 4. Now I take a level in wizard. Now, according to the SRD, disable device can have max ranks of 5 (because it is on the combined "class list"). But, does it cost me 2 points or 1 point to buy a rank in Disable Device??
Nom 06-06-05, 08:59 AM	2 points. The key quote is "Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3.". Purchase cost is based on the current class. Max rank is level +3 if it's a class skill for any class you have. Note that the smart way of doing a rogue multiclass is to pick up the levels in stages. Get to level 2 quickly, then add another level every few levels when you need to top up your skill points. Don't forget that every level you don't take in rogue adjusts the number of skills you can max out. If you go straight rogue, you can max 8+Int skills. If 1 per 2, this is halved (4+Int/2). If 1 per 3, it is 1/3 (~ 3). Further, it is almost always beneficial to take Rogue at 1st level if you plan a Rogue multiclass.
Phrennzy 06-06-05, 09:54 AM	I don't like taking on a Rogue class just because there isn't a rogue in the party. However, if you don't, you are limited in your ways of dealing with traps. Find Traps Divination Level: Clr 2 Target: You Duration: 1 min./level You gain intuitive insight into the workings of traps. You can use the Search skill to detect traps just as a rogue can. In addition, you gain an insight bonus equal to one-half your caster level (maximum +10) on Search checks made to find traps while the spell is in effect. Note that find traps grants no ability to disable the traps that you may find. You can use that to find them, then maybe trigger them Unseen Servant or Mage Hand, depending on the trap. Also, Unseen Servant and Mage Hand make great chest openers - keeps you at a relatively safe distance. There is also: Chime of Opening: A chime of opening is a hollow mithral tube about 1 foot long. When struck, it sends forth magical vibrations that cause locks, lids, doors, valves, and portals to open. The device functions against normal bars, shackles, chains, bolts, and so on. A chime of opening also automatically dispels a hold portal spell or even an arcane lock cast by a wizard of lower than 15th level. The chime must be pointed at the item or gate to be loosed or opened (which must be visible and known to the user). The chime is then struck, a clear tone rings forth, and in 1 round the target lock is unlocked, the shackle is loosed, the secret door is opened, or the lid of the chest is lifted. Each sounding only opens one form of locking, so if a chest is chained, padlocked, locked, and arcane locked, it takes four uses of a chime of opening to get it open. A silence spell negates the power of the device. A brand-new chime can be used a total of ten times before it cracks and becomes useless. Moderate transmutation; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, knock; Price 3,000 gp; Weight 1 lb. Another tact would to be to talk with the DM and explain that no one wants to take a level in rogue, and could he maybe please reduce the number of traps from the game. I mean really, traps without a rogue serve only to severly slow down the game as the party constantly falls back to heal.
Thanatos02 06-06-05, 10:31 AM	There are some classes that can replace a Rogue in the party if need be, and there are options for the party if nobody wishes to be one. A party might hire a Rogue or an Expert that specializes in locks and traps. Scouts, Ninja, Wizards and Sorcerers, certain Clerics, and Bards can sometimes take over for Rogues. Of course, nothing beats a Rogue for dungeon trap disarming, but taking the right Feats and skills, and equipping yourself properly means you can still adventure. I mean, my party functions without a Cleric, so it can be done. Consider spells like Detect Trap, Detect Snares, Open/Close, Mage Hand, Shatter, Invisibility, Silence, Darkness, Jump, Spider Climb, or Alter Self to replicate the Rogue's seakiness or access-related skills.
Thorak 06-06-05, 10:37 AM	There's also oodles of ways to get around even the need for a Rogue. For instance, deliberately setting off traps, while protected. Get a Tower Shield, and a bent crowbar. Wedge lids off chests and such while under total cover. Or use 10 foot poles to push tripwires. Etc, etc. Also, just bypass the places people put traps. Got a lock you're pretty sure is trapped? Ask which way the door opens, out or in. If it's in, the hinges are on your side. Break em. Now the door opens from the "wrong" side, without monkeying with the lock. If it opens out, then ask if it's made of wood. If so, an axe does wonders. Same for chests; who needs to worry about a lock, when a couple chops'll take you right through the top of it anyway? Basically, Sunder the snot out of everything that gets in your way. It's inanimate and isn't resisting. Does this mean Rogues are useless? God no. But they're hardly necessary. It's like any class, each helps the party, but not a one of them is absolutely needed.
kam_Islash 06-06-05, 11:49 AM	Not to mention sneak attack damage. ///
MarkB 06-06-05, 12:44 PM	There are some classes that can replace a Rogue in the party if need be, and there are options for the party if nobody wishes to be one. A party might hire a Rogue or an Expert that specializes in locks and traps. Scouts, Ninja, Wizards and Sorcerers, certain Clerics, and Bards can sometimes take over for Rogues. Of course, nothing beats a Rogue for dungeon trap disarming, but taking the right Feats and skills, and equipping yourself properly means you can still adventure. Artificers also get the Rogue's trapfinding ability, and have both Search and Disable Device as class skills. With access to skill-boosting infusions and cheap scrolls and other magic items, they make pretty good trap-busters. And there's always the old standby of using summoned creatures to trip the traps.
Lord Gwydion 06-06-05, 08:02 PM	Back when I was playing B/E/C/M D&D, we were always coming across wands of trap detection. Handy little items. Think a door or chest might be trapped? No Thief around? Use the wand. Once it was known if it was trapped or not, we could find a way to deal with it without a Thief if necessary. It was better having the Thief around, but we did alright when there wasn't one.
Yruc 06-07-05, 01:45 AM	summon animal/monster 10' pole another party member's familar / animal companion (think carrot on a stick with the 10' pole) or tied to the end of the 10' pole and being lead in front of the party, or just toss said familar / animal companion down a cooridor you think might be trapped... You shouldn't have to sacrifice alone, could as a party hire an NPC rogue or someone take the leadership feat and get a cohort who is a rogue.
Dunelord 06-07-05, 02:07 AM	Just summon a monster that you have walk in front of the part. It won't even really get hurt.
Dragonsblood 06-07-05, 03:51 AM	Unseen Servant can be used to spring many traps, just not heavy pressure plate traps. It can open doors, chests, and pick up objects. It even suggests this use in the spell discription. The main advantages are that it's hard to kill, and lasts 1 hour/level vs Summon Monster which lasts a matter of seconds. Mage Hand and Open/Close can be used for unlocked chests, doors, and objects on pedistals (bump the magic item with a stone controlled by mage hand). Detect Magic should let you know if there is a magical trap in the spells range.
The Man from Uncle 06-07-05, 03:59 AM	Hmm...well, i'd probably advise in your case not to multiclass. Truth is, even if you do mulitclass now, you'll still be a pretty lousy rogue. To their credit though I think that rogues are one of the most versatile classes in the game. A high level rogue can cast spells from wands (acting as both healer and artillary), make a hugh difference in combat with a few well aimed sneak attacks, be a swiss army knife of skills and thats before you even think about trap finding and sneaking around.
yonman 06-07-05, 12:00 PM	A Rogue isn't anymore necessary than a Cleric....but it certainly makes things EASIER. Discuss it with your party and use alternative methods described above.
The Axeman 06-07-05, 01:16 PM	our groups seem to die more without a rogue..but they aren't nearly as important as a cleric.
angryman 06-07-05, 10:55 PM	I find rogues become a little subpar at high levels. Maybe my friends just make bad rogues, but high level traps tend to be somehow avoidable- there just can't be too many 30d6 spear traps before someone calls shenannigans. They die too easily; one sneak attack and the enemy (frost giant jarl, marilith) pounds him to mush. Fort saves and Will saves are imo the two most important, and they lack both. Their skills are great, but honestly I'd rather have another cleric or wizard in the party.
OctoberRaven 06-07-05, 11:50 PM	A bard can replace almost anything. If someone joins the game, let them choose between bard and rogue, and explain to him the situation. This way you get what you need and still give him at least a bit of a choice in class. Also Clerics have a few options. Divination, controlling an undead (For evil some neutral clerics), summoning a monster as a canary of sorts, and that's just off the top of my head. Detect magic can help finding magical traps, followed by dispelling it. If you have a golem handy, even better. 10-foot-poles can come in handy too, and sometimes not even that (I consider a tripwire to have 1 AC with +19 against ranged weapons). If you want to make a rogue PC, go ahead, in the end it's better than using all these options. As an analogy, a monk needs nothing but his/her clothing to suceed in a fight. But Shurikens help.