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| Lincoln Hills05-23-05, 07:30 PM | Drow have a huge "kewl factor" that really attracts the younger, newer role-players... Well, for one thing, there's the "evil but beautiful" thing... Redeemed Evil is an extremely intriguing idea. So is just plain-vanilla Evil and/or or the "outcast" backstory... and what's more admirable than someone who has the strength of will to overcome an evil culture? People... often want to play something that's "larger than life"... How many good Orc PCs have you seen? And how many good Drow PCs have you seen? The above post is from a pretty old thread, but I thought it worth looking at on a thread of its own. We've all seen, "My player wants to play a Drow!" and "My DM won't let me play a Drow!" threads. They are, with the possible exception of the paladin threads, the most frequent 'Not again!' posts on these boards (sigh!) All right, fellow DMs. Posit: You are starting a new (i.e. low-level) campaign in which dark elves exist, and in which they are the foul and black-hearted fiends we DMs love to use. One of your players wants in on the action. What arguments can be used - arguments which respect the desires of the character, but also the tone of the campaign? I'll start off. 1. Racism is alive and well in most D&D worlds. To a law enforcement official of any surface nation - yes, even the evil ones - a dark elf is just a good-looking homicidal maniac. You can never show your true face... even in most societies noted for "tolerance" and "peace." They want to stay that way, so they'll punish you... guilty or not... for the sins of your people. |
| Lord of the Underdark05-23-05, 08:21 PM | That's usually what I tell players,"You'll be attacked in the streets, for just being yourself." If they don't want to listen, I let them play the character and then have the town mob him/her. Rinse, lather and repeat. Eventually they catch on. This reminds me of a player that wanted to play a half-dragon in a campaign where dragons were the source of all evil. :rolleyes: Sure you can play him. :D Have fun in town! |
| Rogue Newb05-23-05, 08:31 PM | Well if a character wants to play a drow at least give him a chance. Give him a cloak and let him take points in disgiuse. Between disguise, bluff (Why are you wearing your hood up?) and spot checks against a hood (I have no idea how that would work) he might have a chance. Don't killer a player idea just because you can. Make him try, then viscously mob him!!! =) |
| Count Arioch the 28th05-23-05, 08:32 PM | 2. Drow are a +2 LA race, with no written progression. tough cookies. 3. In my world, Drow is a template. If you are not actively being evil 24/7, Lolth will at the very least gank your drow abilities, and at the most turn you into some sort of mindless beast before ripping your limbs off one by one and eating them in front of you. |
| Draco Strang05-23-05, 08:33 PM | All right, fellow DMs. Posit: You are starting a new (i.e. low-level) campaign in which dark elves exist, and in which they are the foul and black-hearted fiends we DMs love to use. One of your players wants in on the action. What arguments can be used - arguments which respect the desires of the character, but also the tone of the campaign? I'll start off. 1. Racism is alive and well in most D&D worlds. To a law enforcement official of any surface nation - yes, even the evil ones - a dark elf is just a good-looking homicidal maniac. You can never show your true face... even in most societies noted for "tolerance" and "peace." They want to stay that way, so they'll punish you... guilty or not... for the sins of your people. 2. Drow are inherently evil by nature. Religious dogma and social background dictate that they be ruthless, full of hate, and cruel; twisting anything and everything they can to their advantage, others bedamned. Always out to improve their own status and well-being, drow will betray anyone and anything to further their own goals. Okay, does the above strike you as a little counter-productive to the party? Yea, yea, there are "Chaotic Good Drow" but those are one in ten billion. Drizzt was unique in his books because he was the only one of his kind. Letting a PC play a good drow kind of cheapens it because you, as the DM, are saying "Yea, sure be whatever you want, you can always be the exception to the rule." Why not just let them play that half golem/half illithid feral barbarian psionicist? |
| Flushmaster05-23-05, 08:39 PM | I'm not against drow PCs. I'm just generally against good drow PCs. Drow are almost always evil. Yeah, every sentient creature has a potential to go against the grain, but in a world like D&D this is extremely rare in cases of a race such as the drow. When's the last time you heard of a lawful good red dragon? Same thing here. If you want to play a drow in a game that I DM then you should be either evil or neutral with at least a few evil tendencies. I always reserve the right to change your alignment if I deem your actions repeatedly demonstrate that it is more appropriate; if your "neutral" drow is acting blatantly good, then he/she winks out of existence and you roll up a new, non-drow character. A rare exception may occur, but only if the player can provide a damn good backstory to justify this, and I am the sole judge on if it is good enough or not. Same goes for other races that traditionally stick towards a specific alignment or set thereof. If you want to play a good aligned chromatic half-dragon or an evil assimar then you're going to have a lot of explaining to do. The default answer in such a case is no, and it's your job to convince me that the character concept is valid and that you're a good enough roleplayer to pull such a character off. Still, most surface elves will likely attack drow PCs, regardless of alignment, on sight, as would most dwarves and various other races that are particularly familiar with drow. At least, warriors and other combat capable ones would, while others would run, terrified, to find warriors. Some NPCs, under proper circumstances, might come to accept that a good drow isn't an evil bastard like pretty much all of the rest, but the burden of proof is on the drow and until they're utterly convinced they'll be keeping at least one eye on you and oone hand near a weapon (or ready to cast a spell, etc). |
| PrinceAzar05-23-05, 08:41 PM | I'm not against drow PCs. I'm just generally against good drow PCs. Drow are almost always evil. Yeah, every sentient creature has a potential to go against the grain, but in a world like D&D this is extremely rare in cases of a race such as the drow. When's the last time you heard of a lawful good red dragon? Same thing here. . Book of Exalted Deeds :D In all seriousness though, Neutral or Chaotic Neutral is as far as i'd step out of the alignment limit when roleplaying a drow. |
| Meshakhad05-23-05, 08:58 PM | Simply start the campaign off at level 1 or two. Then explain that the player cannot be a drow, since that would make them too powerful. |
| Edymnion05-23-05, 10:13 PM | I rather like the answer I think it was Fixxxer or chonjurer came up with. Drow are a matriachial society, where the females are upper class citizens, and the males are dirt, yes? Whats the logical extension of that? The upper class of any society don't like mixing with the lower class, especially not as lovers. When it comes to "ahem" type relations, why would the drow make an acception to their rules? The Drow are an inherently homosexual race, who only breed with the opposite gender as a tribute to their creator goddess in order to make new Drow. They are doing a social duty, nothing more, nothing less. It makes sense. And it has this unique way of getting people that just wanted to play them for the "kewl" factor to suddenly not want to play them anymore when they find out that their dual scimitar weilding angsty drow character is more interested in the stable boy than the serving girl. Of course, even without using that, Drow fall under the catagory of weird monster race, and its going to take a DAMNED good reason as to why they should be in the party. As in, you explain to me what the character would do, I stick the rest of the party into a situation where they encounter the drow, and we'll just see what they do. They don't know its a potential PC, so they won't metagame stupid reasons to get along with it. If they kill it on site, tough luck. If they don't kill it on site, and you manage to become part of the group, you're still going to get lynched every time you walk into a town. If you want to use disguise to try and pass off as a normal elf, it gets to the point of "Why didn't you just pick a normal elf in the first place?" when he has to paint himself up like a normal elf, and act like a normal elf in every situation the party gets into. |
| PrinceAzar05-23-05, 10:33 PM | I find nothing wrong playing a character of any sexuality. That attempt to drive out players might work on a fairly immature or close-minded one, or someone with beliefs against it, however, to most gamers, unless you hugely put emphasis on them interacting in a social setting, they wouldn't mind either. :cool: P.S. Drizzt doesn't swing that way. :D |
| Draco Strang05-23-05, 10:51 PM | Whats the logical extension of that? The upper class of any society don't like mixing with the lower class, especially not as lovers. When it comes to "ahem" type relations, why would the drow make an acception to their rules? The Drow are an inherently homosexual race, who only breed with the opposite gender as a tribute to their creator goddess in order to make new Drow. They are doing a social duty, nothing more, nothing less. Actually Edy, I disagree with you that the drow race is an inherently homosexual one. If you'll recall in the Drizzt trilogy, numerous references are made to the matron mothers having male patrons and lovers. Also, reference is made to those same matron mothers growing tired of their patrons, killing them, and getting new ones. This can be attributed to a voracious sexual appetite. In more recent books, the allusions of same-sex relations between such characters as Quenthel, Danifae, and Hallistra. I'm willing to bet that it's just a matter of preference. If Drow priestesses wanted to get freaky with each other, just fine. If they wanted a little male companionship, also fine, but the males have no rights in or out of bed. Just my take of things. |
| Cadfan05-23-05, 11:19 PM | I have a pretty simple answer. I write campaigns with plot lines. I DO NOT DM campaigns where a bunch of totally random people get together, say, "I R TEH ADVENTURER!!!" and wander around waving a sword at anything that counts for exp. I write campaigns where the PCs defeat some specific, ancient evil, in a plot intense action adventure, then retire until I can think up another decent, plot intense adventure for them. Someone else DMs in the interum, or I DM for different sets of characters. Lets say I've got my campaign concept. Odds are, I can't think of any way to work a drow character into any of my plotlines, unless everyone was a drow. The pcs would be unable to interact with the world around them in any meaningful way once people saw the drow in their midst. No one, at all, would trust them. Not even other criminals and outsiders. (You know how this goes, not even the town thieves den wants to be buddies with the mindflayer and whatnot.) No one else wants to be a drow, so we can't have an all drow campaign. We aren't changing the entire campaign just to include massive accomodations for your character. Therefore you can't be a drow. Really, its the same reason I wouldn't let a pc be a chaotic evil rogue, unless everyone was similar. If a character concept means the entire game has to be altered into something lame just to accomodate one guy, I won't do it. |
| Mirikon05-23-05, 11:25 PM | Actually, there's a Drow Monster class in the Savage Progressions Archives (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a). As for what to do about a player who wants to play a drow? Let them, but advise them that they are gonna face problems if their true identity becomes known. On the order of them wanting to find a Hat of Disguise before their first magic weapon. Angry mobs, shops suddenly closing down, inns that just shut down, the whole nine. The character will be doing a lot of slipping over city walls at night, and bee-lining it to the worst parts of town. Also have them consider what to do if the rest of the party doesn't have some means of seeing in the dark. Do they travel at night or during the day? It is the DMs responsibility to provide multiple plot ideas for people, but the players have to meet the DM halfway. Make the players have to work and RP their way into the hooks. I'd give a drow PC a +2 or +4 circumstance bonus to intimidate checks depending on how active drow are in the area, and the same as a penalty to diplomacy checks, when the PC's true nature is known. But the drow PC should be doing his best to hide, as the city guard, at the first whiff of a drow in their city, will be out in force. And the results of getting captured by the city guard may well be fatal. |
| Edymnion05-23-05, 11:32 PM | I find nothing wrong playing a character of any sexuality. That attempt to drive out players might work on a fairly immature or close-minded one, or someone with beliefs against it, however, to most gamers, unless you hugely put emphasis on them interacting in a social setting, they wouldn't mind either. :cool:Bingo. If they're a mature roleplayer, they won't care, and chances are they won't cause any problems playing a Drow. Its the immature people that insist on playing a Drow that will cause problems, and they're the ones that will be scared away by this tactic. I've got no problems with people that actually want to play a drow for a legitimate reason, who can actually pull it off. I do have things against people that want to play a drow just because they're "uber kewl!" and just make a glorified Drizzt clone. If they were okay with it, I'd likely just drop the idea altogether and let them play the character however they wanted. Its just a diversionary tactic to seperate the wheat from the chaff. |
| Moon-Lancer05-24-05, 01:01 AM | Well I don’t know anything about Drizzt, but I think dark elves are pretty neet. The first time a saw them was in record of loddoss war. very cool in my opinion. Why should the player care about your campaign if you are not even willing to work with them on a character that they wish to play. It seems disrespectful. Just an observation. I could be wrong. dms seem to commonly have the stigma that a strange groups are bad for story. Lets say a drow, a war forged, a pixie, and a succubus. Why could they not be a partie? Why could not travel together. If you cant come up with simple plot lines that can figure out why they are traveling together, you must not have a very complex imagination. Sometimes i feel that too many dms are on power trips and have misinformation about things like psionics, or drow, or how things should be. I will give you, that if a player wants to play a drow, and in your campaign, drow follow such and such role, that playing said drow should have consequences, but alot of the posts seems like the dm is out to get the player from the start, and if that’s the case, how should the player respect the dm? Why should the player role play the drow the way you *think* that drow should be, if your already planning to kill him. Seems to me, the problem isn’t drow but the imagination of the dm. Similarly, do you rag on your players if a character plays a neutral or even good half orc. Probably not. Why is that? I think many dms have just had too many fan boys who didn’t know how to role play, play a drow so they think the problem is with drow, not with that player. But who would play a orc for coolness… |
| devinmdp05-24-05, 01:13 AM | I have a pretty simple answer. I write campaigns with plot lines. I DO NOT DM campaigns where a bunch of totally random people get together, say, "I R TEH ADVENTURER!!!" and wander around waving a sword at anything that counts for exp. I write campaigns where the PCs defeat some specific, ancient evil, in a plot intense action adventure, then retire until I can think up another decent, plot intense adventure for them. Someone else DMs in the interum, or I DM for different sets of characters. Lets say I've got my campaign concept. Odds are, I can't think of any way to work a drow character into any of my plotlines, unless everyone was a drow. The pcs would be unable to interact with the world around them in any meaningful way once people saw the drow in their midst. No one, at all, would trust them. Not even other criminals and outsiders. (You know how this goes, not even the town thieves den wants to be buddies with the mindflayer and whatnot.) No one else wants to be a drow, so we can't have an all drow campaign. We aren't changing the entire campaign just to include massive accomodations for your character. Therefore you can't be a drow. Really, its the same reason I wouldn't let a pc be a chaotic evil rogue, unless everyone was similar. If a character concept means the entire game has to be altered into something lame just to accomodate one guy, I won't do it. Thank you Cadfan. I decided to make the egregious internet error of quoting your entire post because I felt it was worth repeating. In my campaigns, I ask my players to decide what type of campaign they want to play and then I require them to make PCs that can operate in that campaign without disrupting it. If a DM runs a campaign with very loose xeno-social structures, where nobody blinks twice at a half dwarf half gold dragon 10 feet tall walking down the street, then I suppose you could toss in a drow or twelve and not blink twice. Such a campaign is not for me. I prefer my spectacular to be just that....spectacular. If a player came to me in the midst of my current campaign run in a humanocentric province of the Empire (halflings are unheard of, as are gnomes, elves are a rare curiousity, and dwarves are somewhat common) and asked to play a drow, I would basically tell him no....you would either be slain on sight by NPCs or by the other players who DO NOT make special allowances for other PCs by showing them favouritism. The only way to pull it off would be to be so reclusive and in such a deep disguise mode that the act of pulling it off would tend to dominate each playing session and ultimately would end up the same....a dead drow. If my PCs wanted to play a drow campaign, they could try that, but my drow are the drow of War of the Spider Queen, not Drizzt. Life expectancies would be short and brutal for all but the most able, luckiest, and cleverest of players. Devin |
| DarkSoldier05-24-05, 01:37 AM | In the setting I'm trying to write, dark elves have an ancient curse that prevents them from ever feeling the warmth of the sun; if they try, they burst into flame. Also, the other elves have an ancient "Kill on Sight" order against them. "But I have a hat of disguise!" you say? "FOOM!" I say. |
| GDwarf05-24-05, 06:59 AM | dms seem to commonly have the stigma that a strange groups are bad for story. Lets say a drow, a war forged, a pixie, and a succubus. Why could they not be a partie? Why could not travel together. If you cant come up with simple plot lines that can figure out why they are traveling together, you must not have a very complex imagination. Sometimes i feel that too many dms are on power trips and have misinformation about things like psionics, or drow, or how things should be. It's hardly a power-trip to want the campaign to run smoothly. What's wrong with the Warforged, Drow, Pixie, and Succubus? The players have to figure out why they are adventuring together, and they have to use a reason that's held together by more then "they all think the others are cool and good companions.". It's not the DMs job to keep the party working together, and it's not the DMs job to come up with backstories for characters, it just doesn't make sense. I myself am against having anything more then the core races accept for certain special exceptions, why? Because half-dragons would scare every NPC for miles and would probably be hunted on sight. Disguising is not the best solution as each and every session would more then likely have a lengthy part of it dedicated to the Pixie/Dragon/cow/demon/tiger/wolf/kobold (I still don't understand how some players play characters with more then 2 races...) disguising them self. To put it simply, no Drow because they ruin the game for everyone else, besides, by the books on them (And most of the other weird races that PCs like to play) they wouldn't be out adventuring, the Drow worship an evil goddess, any rebels would be killed at once etc. etc. So unless they have a damned good backstory that isn't a slightly modified version of Drizzt's and unless they can account for why these 3 PCs didn't kill the Drow on sight, and why all the NPCs for 100 miles around aren't readying for war against them they can't play Drow. |
| Lord of the Underdark05-24-05, 09:24 AM | Actually Edy, I disagree with you that the drow race is an inherently homosexual one. If you'll recall in the Drizzt trilogy, numerous references are made to the matron mothers having male patrons and lovers. Also, reference is made to those same matron mothers growing tired of their patrons, killing them, and getting new ones. This can be attributed to a voracious sexual appetite. Or perhaps they are like black widow spiders, so once they've mated, she kills the male. (Just a thought.) I don't think they are a homosexual society, just for the record. |
| snowlynx05-24-05, 10:04 AM | First: If the drow is going to be a problem in the game, don't allow it. If you think the player is just trying to be 'cool' by playing a drow, don't allow it. That being said... I don't think there's any more problem with playing a differently alligned drow then, say, a differently aligned orc. why? The Monster manual seems to think drow are 'usually neutral evil'. Usually means there are non neutral evil drow! Most of these are probably lawful evil, neutral, or chaotic evil, but I'm not about to tell my players that if they play an elf ("usually chaotic good") they MUST be chaotic good. As for red dragons....the entry says they are ALWAYS their alignment. That is a big step; it means that 99.9% of red dragons ARE chaotic evil. The problem comes when we deal with the drow somehow expecting to be treated the same as everyone else....and when they aren't treated as such, it presents problems for the storyline and group. (Chased out of town! That's the third time this week...) An orc or other not-well received race is going to have the same problems. Any of the 'odd races' should be disallowed or discouraged if they're going to cause headaches for both the DM and players. in a nutshell: drow: allow in game only with careful thought; alignment: not always neutral evil. |
| Moon-Lancer05-24-05, 10:41 AM | i agree. its not alwayse the dms job to keep the party together. Im saying that if the party comes up with an idea and the dm gets all flusterd becuse he feels his world is falling apart, the point is maybe the players dont want to play that world, if they cant play the types of charicters they want. sorry i should have been more clear. also it was late. AHHH the spelling the spelling!!!! if the dm doesent allow a player to play what they think is 'cool', isent that a bit harsh? "No you have to be a dirty speck of a slug in my world. I'm the dm. No cool for you. thats reserved for the npc's" at least thats what it sounds like to me when i hear people on the forms talk about disallowing this or that becuse its 'strange'. 'Or perhaps they are like black widow spiders, so once they've mated, she kills the male. (Just a thought.)' if i tried mateing with a hot sexy drow, and she tried to kill me afterwords, and she fails, i think im not going to stick around. Maybe i would go to the surfice, and find some hot high elf to fill my love with. There is a feat for drow that lets them bask in the sunlight |
| Lord of the Underdark05-24-05, 11:48 AM | I don't disallow Drow because "I've reserved all the cool for myself", I disallow them typically, because they've been at war with everyone (themselves included) for centuries. Most other races would either run after or away from a Drow. This makes difficulty for the DM when trying to arrange NPC encounters. Now any elf NPC's will treat you with disdane "you're with one of them....you know.....the Drow" So will most any race....sounds like a great campaign, they can't get work because no one will talk to them, and when they do, they don't want to be associated with a Drow. |
| Draco Strang05-24-05, 12:10 PM | Or perhaps they are like black widow spiders, so once they've mated, she kills the male. (Just a thought.) Well, I've ready pretty much every drow novel, and a lot of the source material for 2nd ed. and onward. In a lot of it, I've read about females keeping certain long-term consorts, and then ditching them and or killing them when they get bored. So, I guess we can chalk it all up to the individual preferences, moodswings, and whims of every drow female that is in a position to make such decisions. Really, that's probably the best way to do it. Hell, why are we sitting around shooting the breeze about a fictional race's sex life anyway? If you'll excuse me, I need to go interact with real, living breathing people now..... :D |
| Moon-Lancer05-24-05, 12:43 PM | If I were playing a Drow, and any character i see hates me, because I’m a Drow, not because of what my character has done, isn’t that evil or at least neutral? seems to me if i was a chaotic good Drow, and some elves beat me up because I’m a Drow, that would be against the general alignment of high elves who are usually good. I would think that would be messing up their own campaign because they are out to kill the cool. That’s the dm's prerogative to make every Tom Dick and Harry racist and evil. I’m not saying their wouldn’t be tension or conflict, but I’m saying if all your "good npc's" turn evil or netral the moment they see a Drow, well that’s the dm’s choice. Although it seems little bit extreme to keep up Racal ties. Hmm maybe it would be fun. A Drow could walk around, and if a paladin saw him, he would loose all benefits of his class because he just turned neutral or evil because of his racism and inability to think that fate is not preordained and exceptions to the rule will happen. Or maybe he would turn neutral when he makes a unprovoked attack. Wont he be a sad sight to see when his smite doesn’t work. |
| Venom of the Yuan Ti05-24-05, 12:43 PM | I have allowed Drow once, and that was when the palyer came up with a good backstory based reason. His drow rouge/paladin was a drow by race, but had been raised in a human (I have very evil human nations) slave camp as the only drow (nay the only elf) in the entire place. He even gave up being able to speak elven because of the backstroy (which involved the drow stealing food/weapons/medicen from the guards (hence rouge) and then reciving the call in the form of a signal from Elcilion ( a deiaty renowned for openmindedness (not as his main thing, just as a little side thing)) which indicated when paladins would attack the slave camp. When the paladin leader saw him he relaised (to his shock, BTW this is another paly power I allow, to instanly know on sight if another is also a paladin/has been called to paladinhood) that this drow had been called. I have also allowed ogers twice, a minator once and orcs/goblins/hobgobbos as a standard race. |
| Direwolf14105-24-05, 12:50 PM | I really dislike LAs and thought that a CG Drow was really hard to come by so I rolled up a Half-Elf and said she was a half-drow. No crazy abilities, no LA, and none of the "but drow are evil!" I had one party member tell me that and I replied "Ah, but I do not follow my fathers path in the depths of the underdark." As far as crazy parties go, the party had a half-dragon wizard, a half-drow cleric of Eiliastree(sp?), a dwarven battlerager, and a crazy human druid. Some how this all worked out very nicely, though my first meeting with the dwarf ended with me running for my life! Im not against Drow just be prepared to be lynched by townsfolk. Anyone remember, I think it was in Sojurn, when the child ran screaming from Drizzt screaming "Its a Drizzit!" I do this kinda thing to my dragon PC, but he uses the dragon class forgot what Dragon thats from though. |
| SilverFoxKnows05-24-05, 01:08 PM | There is nothing politically correct about the Elf/Drow animosity. Your Drow PC may be good but the Drow and surface Elves have been killing each other since before the Humans had written language. I think it's reasonable to say that most commoners would run screaming from a Drow and most good adventurers would attack one on sight. Is it fair to the oddball Drow? No. But if 99 out of 100 (or 999 out of 1000) Drow are evil why WOULDN"T the surface Elves shoot first and ask questions later? As a surface Elf would YOU be willing to stake YOUR life on the very slim odds that this one Drow isn't a cold blooded killer? I wouldn't. Some rattlesnakes are actually pretty docile but I'm not going to try and pick one up just the same. |
| Phrennzy05-24-05, 01:08 PM | If I were playing a Drow, and any character i see hates me, because I’m a Drow, not because of what my character has done, isn’t that evil or at least neutral? seems to me if i was a chaotic good Drow, and some elves beat me up because I’m a Drow, that would be against the general alignment of high elves who are usually good. I would think that would be messing up their own campaign because they are out to kill the cool. That’s the dm's prerogative to make every Tom Dick and Harry racist and evil. I’m not saying their wouldn’t be tension or conflict, but I’m saying if all your "good npc's" turn evil or netral the moment they see a Drow, well that’s the dm’s choice. Although it seems little bit extreme to keep up Racal ties. Hmm maybe it would be fun. A Drow could walk around, and if a paladin saw him, he would loose all benefits of his class because he just turned neutral or evil because of his racism and inability to think that fate is not preordained and exceptions to the rule will happen. Or maybe he would turn neutral when he makes a unprovoked attack. Wont he be a sad sight to see when his smite doesn’t work. Stereotypes. The majority of Drow are evil. They are known for this worldwide. If you hear a story about drow, you hear about how they are evil and live underground. That's pretty much what the average person is going to know. People operate on stereotypes. They prejudge. All your life, every instance you have ever heard of the drow has connected them with evil. Then one shows up in town. Carrying a weapon on it's hip. Is it an advanced scout for some war party? An assassin? If he sees you and has a chance, can he magic you into oblivion? Will you take the chance of dying to start up a conversation? In a world of magic, where things kill you if you make eye contact, or they can enter and control your body, or they can reduce you to ash with a word, are you going to welcome a being of a race KNOWN for nothing but evil, or are you going to be suspicious? Changing prejudices takes a long time. Anyone in any minority can tell you that. I'm lucky - I can wear my minority status on the inside. Drow can't. A good drow strolling into downtown Waterdeep is going to be subdued first and questioned later. If he strolls into the Dales, he'll be killed first, and magically questioned later. Any other course of action may be enlightened, but it is also suicidal. |
| Lord of the Underdark05-24-05, 01:38 PM | a half-drow cleric of Eiliastree(sp?) I can't believe I didn't think of this before... Eilistraee: The patron of good-aligned drow and those of that race who wish to live in the Realms Above in peace, Eilistraee (eil-iss-tray-yee), the Dark Maiden and Lady of the Dance, is a melancholy, moody deity of song, beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting, and moonlight. She is greatly angered by the evil of most drow but is glad that some have worked their way free of the Spider Queen's web. Eilistraee is a lover of beauty and peace but is not averse to striking back against those who would harm her followers. She appears as an unclad, glossy-skinned drow woman of great height with ankle-length, sweeping hair of glowing silver. So, if there is a patron diety for good aligned drow.....there must be some out there, otherwise she'd have no divine rank. But, as previously stated...They are know for being evil so, it would all depend on how far spread word of this cult dispursed. |
| Edymnion05-24-05, 01:59 PM | Why should the player care about your campaign if you are not even willing to work with them on a character that they wish to play. It seems disrespectful. Just an observation. I could be wrong.Why should the rules of the universe bend to make an absurd PC possible? People are always so fast to whip out the word "realism" when something isn't the way they want, but when it comes to tryin to play an Insectile Half-Dragon Drow, they complain that everybody is out to get them. Yeah, of course they are, you're trying to play a horrible monster as a normal person! It doesn't MATTER that your character is "differant", people aren't going to see that unless they sit down and talk to you first. Remember Frankenstein? He wasn't evil, he wasn't cruel, he was kind, friendly, and just wanted to be accepted. He was even friends with a blind man that couldn't see the monster he appeared to be. But when the townsfolk found him, they immediantly formed a lynch mob to hunt him down. Did they give him a chance to explain? Did they care what he had to say? No, they saw a monster, and they killed him. Thats realism. That is what would happen. Use a modern day example. If a middle eastern school teacher that just happened to be a member of the NRA and touring downtown Washington DC in his robes and turban, carrying an assault rifle, do you think the police are just going to walk up and ask him what he's doing? No, he's going to have half the national guard on his ass, through no fault or action of his own, just because of the way he looks. Same with the Drow. If the DM says they're a dispised and hated race in his game, then they are. It doesn't matter how good of a backstory you have, you're still going to be hunted down and killed just because you are a drow. The surface dwellers don't need any more justification than your pointy ears and the color of your skin. I mean, its not differant at all than saying "I want to play a half-dragon beholder!" and then getting all uppity when adventurers from across the world come to try and kill you. It is the DM's job to create a cohesive world. When a player goes out of their way to throw a monkey wrench into the system, the default answer should always be "No" until it can be proven to be beneficial to the game. And really, you don't need a weird race to have a cool character. Seriously, if you think that the cool factor of your character depends on something as silly as their race, you're greatly mistaken. There is NOTHING you can do with any race, anywhere, in any book, that you can't do just as well with a plain old Human. How cool a character is in how you roleplay them, not what your character sheet says. |
| Siduakal05-24-05, 03:11 PM | Drizzt was unique in his books because he was the only one of his kind. Letting a PC play a good drow kind of cheapens it because you, as the DM, are saying "Yea, sure be whatever you want, you can always be the exception to the rule." Actually.. re-read the Salvatore novels. Drizzt was the only one to break from that mold that we know of for sure, sort of.. Zaknafien (His father) was much like him, but didn't have the courage to leave. So instead, he fought for House Do'Urden as their weapons master and killed priestesses of houses they attacked to strike back at Lloth. There is also Jarlaxle. He, too, is unique. He is true to the drow nature in that he loves chaos, but he also isn't incredibly evil. He, at one point, gives Drizzt back his life. |
| Kohdok05-24-05, 06:03 PM | I'd let 'em play Drow. "Okay, you wanna play a drow wizard with 3 HP at level three? Be my guest..." Having only 3HP @ level 3 along with being lynched, or at least getting stared at angrily by everyone in town...not being able to buy anything...etc. Even tolerant places wouldn't let you BUY anything without at least doubling the price. I admit, I've created a Drow PC, but I'm not all that attracted to the race. My Drow creation is a young (80's) female member of a sorcerer family(Chaotic Evil, of course). I'll start with the words "Rebellious Drow Teenagers!" Uh huh... you got it... my idea of how Drow end up on the surface when they're young: They're rebelling against their parents and superiors by going to the surface. (Easy to explain for an evil race) However, the Drow normally let these youngsters get away with it, figuring that they will find out both how stupid the people above are and how spiteful they are towards the Drow. It's probably the only form of Drow forgiveness when the young teen returns with this new knowledge. There are EXTREMELY few exceptions.(Those who manage to stay above) That's how I see it, anyway. |
| StormKnight05-24-05, 06:19 PM | That's all fine and good if you play the "they are all evil, corrupt and sociopathic". Personally, I don't go much for black and white in my campaigns. Most Drow could be safely classified as evil, but there are few absolutes. An even my evil races generally have reasons behind it. In my campaign, if a Drow goes walking into a village people wonder where such dark skinned elves are from, since odds are none of them have the faintest idea what a Drow looks like. And if they figure out you are a Dark Elf, they probably run screaming in terror, because the reputation Drow have in my campaign has more in common with supernatural creatures of pure nightmare than a "evil race". Aso in my campaign, if anyone wants to play a Drow there are pretty tight limits since there's pieces of Drow history the players DO NOT know yet. It should also be noted that our knowledge of Drizzt is pretty much "He's some guy in books we've never read, and I got annyoed with pulling three of him in D&D minis, but at least I managed to trade 2 away." |
| Draco Strang05-24-05, 06:46 PM | Actually.. re-read the Salvatore novels. Drizzt was the only one to break from that mold that we know of for sure, sort of.. Zaknafien (His father) was much like him, but didn't have the courage to leave. So instead, he fought for House Do'Urden as their weapons master and killed priestesses of houses they attacked to strike back at Lloth. There is also Jarlaxle. He, too, is unique. He is true to the drow nature in that he loves chaos, but he also isn't incredibly evil. He, at one point, gives Drizzt back his life. Well, go back and re-read them again. I won't argue that Zaknafein isn't unique in that he isn't a pure cold-blooded evil machine, but he's most certainly not good. Besides that, he lacked the conviction to break from the rest of the drow and do something about his beliefs. Zak loved killing. Go read the first short story in the "Realms of the Underdark" anthology, by R.A. Salvatore. Zak happens across a band of kobolds in the Underdark, and joyfully kills every last one as they do their damn best to get the hell out of the way. If we want to expand on that, read the first few chapters of "Homeland." He really gets off on killing anything he's allowed to kill. Wizards, soliders, evil priestesses, and children. You name it, he's killed it. Sure, it might be in the service of someone else, but he does it still. That doesn't excuse it one bit. He gets no check in the "good" box from me. Doesn't seem like much of a Boy Scout anymore, eh?. And no, Jarlaxle isn't the epitome of evil either, but he's certainly not good. Most sources have pegged him at CN for his alignment. He saved Drizzt because it was a smart business move, and he kind of liked him to boot. Not because of any high-minded ideals or code of conduct. It just suited his whims. Jarlaxle also kills people that cut into his business, which most assuredly isn't good aligned. Not every drow is pure evil. I'm willing to bet that a fair number are CN, LN, and TN, but keep the fact to themselves. I'm just saying that Drizzt was unique in that he was good. |
| Arrowhen05-24-05, 07:19 PM | I have a pretty simple answer. I have an even simpler answer: you can't play a drow in my campaign because drow don't exist. I think they're cheesy. I know this opinion puts me in a tiny, tiny majority, but I just think the idea of "take a good race, paint it black and call it evil" is silly. |
| LosGunD05-24-05, 09:34 PM | I am currently playing a Drow, and I'm not evil. I'm neutral (I drew the line there). I don't like playing evil characters so I made mine neutral, though I made sure he had evil tendencies (constant threats, extreme greed, and ruthlessness in every sense of the word). He's not neutral so much as he's not evil enough to be as evil as other Drow. I've got to say, my Drow is a very fun character to play. Right now I'm getting to the point in my DM's world where I'm a fairly powerful character who can handle himself in a bar brawl or against the city guard if need be, and the fear my character brings to the people around him just makes playing him really cool. Now, an adventuring Drow in a D&D world with any logical set of scenarios would never, ever, stay good. The criticism of everyone would very quickly eliminate the desire to be nice to anyone. The races tendency towards evil would definitely aid that progression. There's a definite solution to the Drow problem. I like to call that smart players. That would eliminate all the problems. Unfortunately we aren't all blessed in that way. I wish we were. PS-I believe that as the DM it's our job to help players achieve their goals as long as they're reasonable. Not to force them out of any situations. Help them with thier thought processes. But make sure they know that once they're in game they're left to their own problems to solve them as they see fit. But during character creation we need to be as helpful and patient as we can. Play the part of the wise counselor over all their decisions. Do not push them in any direction, just point the way. |
| Moon-Lancer05-24-05, 09:39 PM | "Remember Frankenstein? He wasn't evil, he wasn't cruel, he was kind, friendly, and just wanted to be accepted. He was even friends with a blind man that couldn't see the monster he appeared to be. But when the townsfolk found him, they immediately formed a lynch mob to hunt him down. Did they give him a chance to explain? Did they care what he had to say? No, they saw a monster, and they killed him." Just for banter, I would like to say the point of Frankenstein was to show the evil in the hearts of men. (It’s similar to "The Devils". Awsome movie btw.) Its juxtaposition of Frankenstein who seems to be the evil one by appearance but it is the ones who were sheep’s clothing who are the true wolves. To have a group of people do that to a drow only points out how they are neutral or evil. If drow are generally evil and you play a chaotic good one, and the dm makes high elves evil, by attacking the good drow, the dm is only showing how playing a chaotic good drow should be possible. That alignment is not preordained. If I were playing a Drow, and any character i see hates me, because I’m a Drow, not because of what my character has done, isn’t that evil or at least neutral? Seems to me if i was a chaotic good Drow, and some elves beat me up because I’m a Drow, that would be against the general alignment of high elves who are usually good. I would think that would be messing up their own campaign because they are out to kill the cool. That’s the dm's prerogative to make every Tom Dick and Harry racist and evil. I’m not saying their wouldn’t be tension or conflict, but I’m saying if all your "good npc's" turn evil or netral the moment they see a Drow, well that’s the dm’s choice. Although it seems little bit extreme to keep up Racal ties. Hmm maybe it would be fun. A Drow could walk around, and if a paladin saw him, he would loose all benefits of his class because he just turned neutral or evil because of his racism and inability to think that fate is not preordained and exceptions to the rule will happen. Or maybe he would turn neutral when he makes a unprovoked attack. Wont he be a sad sight to see when his smite doesn’t work. What I‘m getting at is that its wrong for a dm to disallow a drow because all drow are evil. Its almost selfish. I would understand if their were none, but in general I think it’s silly to no allow them. Theirs not really a reason not to allow them, and it could be a good role playing opportunity. But having it in for the character because they mess with your reality is not the kind of understanding dm I would want to play under. LosGunD :thumbsup: |
| Draco Strang05-24-05, 10:15 PM | What I‘m getting at is that its wrong for a dm to disallow a drow because all drow are evil. Its almost selfish. I would understand if their were none, but in general I think it’s silly to no allow them. Theirs not really a reason not to allow them, and it could be a good role playing opportunity. But having it in for the character because they mess with your reality is not the kind of understanding dm I would want to play under. Why is it silly to not allow them? God forbid the DM want to exercise a little control over their world. Tell me, if you were running a campaign in the middle of the elven forest, would you let your player write up a CE orcish barbarian to adventure with the elf party? Why not? I mean, there's really no reason to disallow them. It could be a great roleplaying opportunity. See what I'm getting at? |
| Lord of the Underdark05-24-05, 10:51 PM | As DM, I reserve the right to allow or refuse anything. Typically, if I won't allow something, it's because it doesn't make sense. (See Orc in the Elf Party post by Draco Strang) Another reason I won't allow things is because they may screw up the plot line I've been working on for 6+ months...If the a player would like to write/inspire/co-dm/or DM an adventure suitable for their friends to play a friendish half illithid spell stitched lich. Fine. But, I'll be the "normal one" playing an elf or a human. (And my PC would still ROCK! :D ) I just don't see a need for much of the "add-ons" to traditional D&D, but what would I know I've only been gaming 20 years. |
| Moon-Lancer05-24-05, 11:01 PM | ah. i see the power strugle wages eternal. "As DM, I reserve the right to allow or refuse anything." im sorry you have to rely on rule zero to make your campain work for you. "Typically, if I won't allow something, it's because it doesn't make sense." im sorry you disallow things becuse they dont make sense to you. you dont know what your missing. "Why is it silly to not allow them? God forbid the DM want to exercise a little control over their world. Tell me, if you were running a campaign in the middle of the elven forest, would you let your player write up a CE orcish barbarian to adventure with the elf party? Why not? I mean, there's really no reason to disallow them. It could be a great roleplaying opportunity. See what I'm getting at?" Actually i think it WOULD be a good idea. I could see the orc slowly turning good over the turn of the moons. It would be awesome character development. Redemption of evil is so appealing. However im not suggesting a CE drow. Maybe natural or good Chaotic drow. also for futher reading http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=435084 |
| TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe05-24-05, 11:45 PM | Many fools have scoffed at the wise words of their elders. ;) |
| Moon-Lancer05-24-05, 11:56 PM | And I’m the wisest fool there is :P the link was more for others that were just reading the thread. Not toward the people that i am debating. |
| NinjaGarret05-25-05, 12:32 AM | If I were playing a Drow, and any character i see hates me, because I’m a Drow, not because of what my character has done, isn’t that evil or at least neutral? That's not called evil. Or neutral. That's called smart. Do you question every goblin you slaughter so helplessly in those dungeons? Hell no - GOBLINS ARE EVIL! Drow are an inherently evil race. They're monsters. Monsters = for killing. Let's put it this way: For centuries, the incredibly longlived Americans and Canadians have been enemies. The Canadians are known for their evil, sadistic behavoir. They slaughter any American, man, woman or child, at any opportunity given. Americans and Canadians both, due to the fact that they live for so long, have all lost family members/friends. Now you have a Canadian that says, "Hey, I don't think I'm evil anymore, eh. I'm gonna stop being such a hoser and chill out in America where everyone hates my kind, eh." What do you think will happen?? |
| Moon-Lancer05-25-05, 12:38 AM | Probably get lynched. However that’s very neutral, as shown with Frankenstein. Maybe even evil. In this case it would not be the drow that’s the monster. Attack before Attacking, unless you have verified your target would not be good. A good character wouldn’t attack unless provoked. But look at monster manual. It says Drow are usually neutral evil. It says the same thing about high elves only chaotic good. Any time you make a high elf character neutral or evil its on the same level of making a good Drow. Drow just seem to have a dark stigma placed apoun them. that’s sad. I’m trying to show that good Drow shouldn’t be as uncommon let along impossible as most Dms think. That’s like rejecting any alignment of a high elf that’s neutral or evil. Think about it. |
| Cadfan05-25-05, 01:00 AM | Let me put it this way, with an example of my concern. I'm writing a campaign for use this fall. Its a Heist campaign. Its going to involve a series of missions all designed around the players, on behalf of a Trickster God, pulling off The Great Impossible Theft, right out from under the noses of the monarch of their kingdom. Its going to be tough, its going to be skill oriented. The Trickster God in this game world is a nice guy, albeit tricksy, and doesn't want them killing random people to help them steal. In fact, the PCs should be chaotic good. So they not only have to steal this object, they have to do so without a body count (excepting evil persons who deserve to die, or monsters or undead, etc). Basically no murdering the guards, the guards are just doing their job. Stealth will be very important. Social skills will be very important. Combat will be mostly important. Subdual damage will get used. The PCs typical activities will be casing a joint, making complex plans, then achieving the amazing. Now lets say a player comes up to me and says, "I want to be a drow." Look at what this does. The PCs can't take him when they go scope out a target. When the PCs impersonate nobles and slip into the king's ball to meet a contact, the drow can't come along. Anyone who sees the drow will no longer think of the PCs as just people, but instead as likely criminals. Their cover will be infinitely harder to obtain. Guards will watch their every step, instead of being more easy going. In general, the entire campaign will suddenly revolve around keeping the drow from screwing things up just by existing, rather than the game itself. I'm not going to let one player do that to my game. Its not fair to the other players, and its not fair to me. This is the same reaction I would have if that same player came up to me and said, "I want to be a lawful evil ogre fighter in full plate mail armor who thinks that stealing is against his honor code, but murdering random people is awesome." That's nice and all, but it completely does not fit in this campaign. So go play it elsewhere. Now, I could make the drow character work. I could give him magical items conceal his appearance. Lots of them. I could alter the game to involve less social situations with lots of people. I could do a number of things. But honestly, is playing a drow that important? I doubt it. |
| Draco Strang05-25-05, 01:23 AM | Actually i think it WOULD be a good idea. I could see the orc slowly turning good over the turn of the moons. It would be awesome character development. Redemption of evil is so appealing. However im not suggesting a CE drow. Maybe natural or good Chaotic drow. So any DM that invokes Rule 0 for his campaign isn't a good DM? Not everything applies to every world man. When I run FR, I rarely (if ever) have Rule 0 anything. DMs running a homebrew (which I will be soon) are in an entirely different boat. If you want to DM a world where Drow don't exist, or are as evil as the day is long, it's entirely your right to do so, and forbid the PCs from playing drow. |
| Moon-Lancer05-25-05, 02:03 AM | "If you want to DM a world where Drow don't exist, or are as evil as the day is long, it's entirely your right to do so, and forbid the PCs from playing drow" This is ok as is, BUT doing it specifically to disallow a player to play a drow is not right. It’s selfish and petty. Let me clarify. It’s ok to use rule 0. It’s not ok to use rule 0 because you "just don’t like drow" and don’t have a better answer, and then asked why you use rule 0. "But honestly, is playing a drow that important? I doubt it" Eh... maybe. It could get difficult, but who wants a free ride anyway. I would think it would add to the fun. The drow could keep watch on a roof top, lonely and alone, or he could create a diversion. Who knows? I think its very workable. It’s about dm player relationship. A player should respect the dm's campaign and help them work out how a drow could conceivable break alignment and play with the party (shouldn’t be that hard considering how many high elves can be evil or neutral). A dm should respect the wishes of the player about their character. I can see removing unbalanced material, but I don’t think I will ever understand why something can’t fit. Obviously you have never witnessed chaos on toast. This makes for the best of games. Why has none actually commented on the logic that follows all drow should be evil that no one should be allowed to play a neutral high elf? hmmm... |
| Cadfan05-25-05, 03:13 AM | "Why has none actually commented on the logic that follows all drow should be evil that no one should be allowed to play a neutral high elf?" Probably for the same reason that you haven't commented on the logic that follows from I can see removing unbalanced material, but I don’t think I will ever understand why something can’t fit. straight to "So I can be a tauric, insectoid, slaad/bear??? In your campaign based around the politics of the Eberron dragon marked houses??? Sweet!" |
| Venom of the Yuan Ti05-25-05, 06:42 AM | (constant threats, extreme greed, and ruthlessness in every sense of the word). Sigh, it is tragic when people lose their sister Ruth |
| Venom of the Yuan Ti05-25-05, 06:43 AM | "Remember Frankenstein? He wasn't evil, he wasn't cruel, he was kind, friendly, and just wanted to be accepted. Sorry but do you mean Frankenstien or the monster here? |
| GDwarf05-25-05, 07:04 AM | I liked an example earlier on in this thread, so I'll repeat it here. Goblins are considered evil by all PCs, they kill hundreds of them over an adventure, do they ever stop and make sure that they are only killing "Evil" Goblins? Another example, if you saw a bunch of people walking along with an Illithid and talking to him, what would you and your party most likely do? Kill them, or at least the Illithid and keep an eye on the rest of them, just in case they were evil. Or maybe you see another group talking to a Lich, same thing. So how is it that people are evil for defending themselves from a known threat that seeks only to kill them? Sure, 1 in 1 million Drow may be good, but would you be willing to take the chance that this one is the good one? Heck if you're a villager the idea that a Drow could be good would be insane. So even if they did stop to ask the Drow if he was good, they wouldn't believe the answer, why should they? For all they know it's one giant plot to make them lower their guard so that they can all be killed. |
| Kolo05-25-05, 08:37 AM | So your players want to play a drow in your good campaign, with rampant racism and prejudice around and with some severe lmits imposed upon any drow on the surface? Let them. It's an interesting challenge, especially if a couple of conditions are met. First of all, alignment. Good can and will happen, but it is unrealistic at best to expect the PC to be one every time. So if no paladin is in the group, why not let the player be an evil drow? Every campaign needs a little alignment twisting. Lets also not forget that neutral alignments are also an available choice in most cases. Second; why is this drow there? Did he fail an important task and thus chose exile over execution? Was he insubordinate in the field of battle and chose, again, to flee? Has he incurred the disfavor of Lolth or her clergy? or is SHE a worshipper of a different god than lolth? All those are valid reasons as to why a drow would choose the sunlit lands over the underdark, and none of them expect (or even require) a good alignment. third; Motivation. Why would the character side with this good party? Did they show him mercy after soundly defeating him, and are keeping him on a short leash? Is he using them as cover in case his enemies catch up with him, acting under false pretenses? Is he under a geas? Is he in trouble with the criminal element and thus forced to side with the law? Does he respect their strength and chooses to side with the winner, or perhaps even use them to get revenge on his enemies? Is she perhaps a cleric of a neutral god and one or more party members worship that same god? Do they have a common goal? then there are the potential problems with this setup. Inter-party strife is one of them, but lets try to remember that drow are supposed to be cunning and intelligent; if it suits his purposes, a drow will not risk antagonizing his fellows in case they turn on him, although he will try to get everything as he best likes it. He'll also be busy watching for treachery from his fellow adventurers. The risk of identification is constant and ever present; disguises, deep hooded cloaks and magic all help in those instances, as does wearing masks to conceal one's identity, which should be fairly common in the rougher parts of town. the Darkness spell-like ability the drow happen to have also helps in a pinch. In short, it's a slightly unusual and fairly challenging role to play, with tons of potential plot hooks attached and new threats to the party to overcome. I fail to see how this isn't a good thing. all told. (O'course, I haven't played a drow since 3.0, as my favorite tactic (get Blind fighting feat, use darkness spell, get lots of ranks in listen, whack away) was nerfed horribly, nor have I had a player wanting to play one for quite a while.) |
| TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe05-25-05, 09:22 AM | The crux of my problem with characters wanting to play "exotic races" (read: stupid-overpowered for a PC race) is this: Most of them don't know how to play a human character effectively, much less a shunned race. Most of them are just trying to make a "twinkie" of Driz'zt, or some other character from a novel. You (the DM) make sure they know the consequences of such actions; ridicule, abandonment, threats and violence (from the NPC's, of course). And yet, the guy playing the Tauric/Half-Fiend Drow/Scorpion Paladin can't figure out why he has to sit outside of town when the rest of the party goes shopping. :confused: It's not like I haven't run a few "strange campaigns" or an evil campaign every now and then. Heck I've played a few where core PC races are banned. So, it's not like I arbitrarily ban "all which I do not like or understand". But, for me (the DM) it's more about the story and some stories don't include a big half-scorpion dude. Imagine Rupunzel letting her hair down for that thing....yeah, I'm sure she'd jump at the chance.....jump right out the window of that tower and plummet to her death rather than imagine what that "evil beast" has in store for her. |
| StormKnight05-25-05, 11:04 AM | I liked an example earlier on in this thread, so I'll repeat it here. Goblins are considered evil by all PCs, they kill hundreds of them over an adventure, do they ever stop and make sure that they are only killing "Evil" Goblins? Another example, if you saw a bunch of people walking along with an Illithid and talking to him, what would you and your party most likely do? Kill them, or at least the Illithid and keep an eye on the rest of them, just in case they were evil. Maybe you've just got psychotic PCs. Mine would pretty much give anything that doesn't attack outright a chance to talk. Sure, if they think it will attack them outright, they might attack first or prepare an ambush, but if it says "Wait!", they'll find out what's up. Heck, even with things they don't get along they can work out something more mutually beneficial than beating on each other. Drizzt was unique in his books because he was the only one of his kind. Letting a PC play a good drow kind of cheapens it because you, as the DM, are saying "Yea, sure be whatever you want, you can always be the exception to the rule." Since Drizzt probably isn't in your campaign, your PC may be the only one of his kind! Unless you are worried about somehow detracting from Drizzt. Sounds like a wierd thing to worry to me. |
| Draco Strang05-25-05, 12:34 PM | Since Drizzt probably isn't in your campaign, your PC may be the only one of his kind! Unless you are worried about somehow detracting from Drizzt. Sounds like a wierd thing to worry to me. Oh, I'm not worried about detracting from Drizzt's overall image or anything. It's just...PCs are special, right? Yea, we all know that. But nothing says they have to be the "only one of their kind" in the world. It gets really cliche and hackneyed if every PC in the party is uber-special and totally stands apart from the crowd. Those kind of players bug me on the whole. They always have to be something that no one else has ever been. Why do heroes have to be templated out whack jobs or CG drow to be unique and fun to play? Anyway, it comes down to the DM's discretion. In my FR world, I'll let a player run a drow PC, but it's gotta be a neutral or evil one and he has to have one hell of a good reason as to why the party would accept him. Oh, and he has to be prepared to be the biggest pariah of all-time. If the village isn't attacking him on sight, you can damn sure bet that they'll have a sign outside of every building saying "No Drow Allowed!" Just because you're an adventurer doesn't mean you'll get accepted. Deal with it. Would you expect a full-orc PC to just be able to waltz through the front gates of Silverymoon? Nope. |
| Mula05-25-05, 01:22 PM | As Moon-Lancer pointed out, drow are 'usually neutral evil', just as high elves are 'usually chaotic good'. Good drow are supposed to be as common as evil high elves. If you're playing in FR, there's even a (loose) organization of good drow: the followers of Eilistraee. But I do understand why good drow are more problematic than evil high elves. The social stigma the race has is a major hindrance in the surface world. However, if a campaign were to take place in the Underdark, a good drow would probably be easier than an evil high elf. |
| StormKnight05-25-05, 02:14 PM | Those kind of players bug me on the whole. They always have to be something that no one else has ever been. Out of curiosity, are you talking about the type of player that sits down to a fantasy game for the first time and wants some "out-there" character, or a player that's been playing for a while and has already been a human, dwarf, elf, halfling, half-orc, fighter, wizard, bard, rogue, paladin, ect. ect. and wants something "wierd" as a change of pace? |
| Moon-Lancer05-25-05, 02:36 PM | "Why do heroes have to be template out whack jobs or CG drow to be unique and fun to play?" Some believe heroes are made of ordinary people put in extraordinary circumstances. Other believes heroes are already extraordinary to start with. Both hold grains of truth. Also redeemed evil is very attractive. It has a twinge of bat man. What’s the point of being good if it Isn’t an uphill battle? |
| NinjaGarret05-25-05, 02:53 PM | You want redeemed evil? You don't need to be a drow for that. Maybe your rogue killed someone in his past for money, and now he's following group Paladin so he can repent. |
| snowlynx05-25-05, 03:25 PM | Those kind of players bug me on the whole. They always have to be something that no one else has ever been. Why do heroes have to be templated out whack jobs or CG drow to be unique and fun to play? Every single PC, be they human, drow, or half-dragon lantern archon, should be a unique person in the player's eyes, or the player risks getting bored of their character after they're done thwacking stuff. I think the problem comes when people's concept of a character becomes, "he is a drow" or 'he's a half dragon" or "he's a human" instead of the player actually coming up with a BACKGROUND for their character. Gasp- a concept for a character, that isn't merely race and class? How dare the DM suggest such a thing! Playing a drow gives a player the opportunity to give their character a really twisted, dark background. I have no problem with this, as long as the player actually develops their character in a way that is unique, not just "because I wanted to play a (insert critter here.)" The player needs to come up with a reason why the character is adventuring with the group, and a good, solid background and concept, regardless of if they're playing human or half dryad/half treant. That doesn't mean the character is going to work in the game, but I expect my players to think about who their character is, not just what their character is. |
| Moon-Lancer05-25-05, 03:33 PM | I agree 100% that a Drow without a good story IS asking for problems with inter party relationships. I just assumed a good back story was a given. .... opps. |
| GDwarf05-25-05, 03:44 PM | Maybe you've just got psychotic PCs. Mine would pretty much give anything that doesn't attack outright a chance to talk. Sure, if they think it will attack them outright, they might attack first or prepare an ambush, but if it says "Wait!", they'll find out what's up. Heck, even with things they don't get along they can work out something more mutually beneficial than beating on each other. A poor example, let me rephrase it. For all of their adventuring time the PCs have heard legends about the evil Illithids and the horrible things they do to humans. One day they are in a bar and one walks in, now they probably won't kill it, but I really doubt that they'll treat it with any respect at all, and when it first enters will probably spring to their feet as the patrons leave, and yet there are players who complain when their Drow, or Half-Dragon, or Ogre etc. Has this happen to them. I know I'm painting everyone with the same brush, but most of the people who want to play Drow are rather poor Role-Players who think that if they are a 'cool' race then everyone will think that they RP better, or they want to mimic Drizzt, or they just want to play a cool race, or they want an excuse to do off the wall stuff. For the most part they don't handle the problems with being a Drow well, or don't develop their character, "Why did you just kill that man?" "I'm a Drow, duh, it's what they do." Besides, I'm sure that most DMs are sick and tired of Drow Rangers with two Scimitars and a Panther companion. I agree 100% that a Drow without a good story IS asking for problems with inter party relationships. I just assumed a good back story was a given. .... opps. That's just it, for the most part people in here are assuming that people who play Drow don't RP well, and don't bother with backstories, which, for the most part, seems to be true. I have no doubt that some people are good at playing Drow, and that they RP them well, but on average it seems they've all read the Drizzt series and think that he is cool. |
| Moon-Lancer05-25-05, 04:00 PM | Yeah. I haven’t read any of those novels. The only things I know of drizzt is what I have herd from others. Mostly here on the board. Apparently he is the “I’m to cool for school” type. I have never met a drizzt fan boy. I guess that’s why I don’t see good drow as a problem. My first drow encounter was from the dark elf Pirotess in record of loddoss war. That’s not even d&d, but does have very similar ties. Its not drow people find fascinating. It’s the evil. It’s the same with people that have vampy and goth fetishes. Its attractive to take that evil and show it in a redeemed light with a bad attitude. Just about every common pop hero has that attitude. Blade anyone? One could go so far as to say fascination with drow is really just respecting Film Noir. Haha I know that sounds awfull… but hay. I think the poor drow players are just those who misunderstand their desire for the anti hero and don’t understand where it comes from. Or what one actually is. |
| SilverFoxKnows05-25-05, 04:55 PM | The situation in which the PCs meet the would-be/new PC Drow could have a lot to do with their reaction. Situation #1: the party hears fighting up the road and runs to investigate. They see a Drow defending a farming family from brigands. Drow shouts to the farmers "Run, I'll hold 'em off as long as I can!". The party now has the idea that the Drow may be okay. Situation #2: The party enters a tavern in a frontier town and sees a Drow sitting in the corner but nobody else seems to care. When asked, the barkeep says "Who, the Dark Elf? He's been coming here for a couple of years, now. He eats his soup, he drinks his wine, he pays in silver. And since he started coming here I haven't had a single barfight. He's fine by me." A Drow PC will still have a hard time in new places but it could be a great roleplaying oportunity. |
| Cadfan05-26-05, 02:32 AM | http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=44 Someone else's take on the subject. And in funny cartoon form! |
| Jonah05-26-05, 05:23 AM | If someone wants to play a Drow in one of my games then I'll let them. I do not differentiate between core races and others. Before the start of the campaign I ask each player for a background on their character. A lot of the times, they are decent and solid backgrounds ranging from the usual nothing better to do, enact revenge on ??? or they had a decent up bringing and just wanted to see the world. Occasionally you get the typical Drow clone but as I base my games in the forgotten realms and have Ellistraee as a goddess, surface drow are not exactly common but are not unheard of. They still suffer the penalties when dealing with civilisations that most drow would expect and generally they have a harder time gaining the trust of the party especially if you put in Drow as bad guys as well. SilverFoxKnows gives two good PC meets party situations that although wouldn't give instant trust, would certainly go a way towards earning it. I have had a PC cleric kill off a Paladin with an inflict spell instead of a cure. Although everyone knew he had killed the character, he just claimed he didn't have enough healing left to save him and that was just over a ring of feather fall. I'd prefer to play with unique characters anyday than your stereotypes. Any race has the potential for being unique, it just depends on how much work you are willing to put into your character. If you do choose something obscure such as a Drow or a Tiefling etc then you have to live with the natural curiosity or downright animosity it can cause. my tuppence has now been spent. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=65 |
| Lincoln Hills05-26-05, 05:10 PM | All these "Why not allow drow PCs?", "I just tell them No and that's that", and "Not all drow are evil!" posters have already had their say on many, many other threads. Please consider the actual topic of the post. I will reiterate it here. Posit: You are starting up a low-level campaign in which the dark elves are portrayed in the traditional manner (i.e. Chaotic Evil and legendary on the surface world for their cruel behavior.) One of your players comes to you and asks to play a drow. What explanations will you give the player, so that she understands why it is not allowed and will not feel bad? |
| Kolo05-26-05, 09:16 PM | All these "Why not allow drow PCs?", "I just tell them No and that's that", and "Not all drow are evil!" posters have already had their say on many, many other threads. Please consider the actual topic of the post. I will reiterate it here. Posit: You are starting up a low-level campaign in which the dark elves are portrayed in the traditional manner (i.e. Chaotic Evil and legendary on the surface world for their cruel behavior.) One of your players comes to you and asks to play a drow. What explanations will you give the player, so that she understands why it is not allowed and will not feel bad? Hey, none of those are off-topic. Some of us don't get why you'd not allow it, myself included. In any case, the answer is a gentle but firm no, just as it is to anything you don't want. Don't want to allow a prestige class? Gentle But Firm No (GBFN). A wannabe wizard player in a low-magic campaign? GBFN. Don't want to allow certain races for PC's? GBFN. A player wants to use some loophole in the rules to get ahead? GBFN. Don't just rule 0 the problem away and say "you can't do that", because the system does in fact allow it and the ensuing argument would only lead to frustration on both sides. Just use GBFN and explain why you'd prefer it didn't happen in your campaign. If you made it clear what kind of campaign this was going to be and the player wanted to play this concept anyway, the fault lies more or less on his side- he then obviously doesn't care enough about the campaign to try to fit into it, and places more importance on being the special little scene-thief. But if the campaign is just your generic world (racism and whatnot included), and the campaign is just about of bunch of adventurers, then there really is no reason to pose the limit. Part of the attraction of roleplaying games is to play outstanding individuals, and a drow is a pretty easy way to achieve this effect and get an almost mandated angst mechanism attached to your character if he's good, what with being a scion of an evil race and all. It doesn't replace good roleplaying, but let's face it; that's probably going to be a fun (if short-lived) character if done right. |
| Draco Strang05-26-05, 09:29 PM | Every single PC, be they human, drow, or half-dragon lantern archon, should be a unique person in the player's eyes, or the player risks getting bored of their character after they're done thwacking stuff. I think the problem comes when people's concept of a character becomes, "he is a drow" or 'he's a half dragon" or "he's a human" instead of the player actually coming up with a BACKGROUND for their character. Gasp- a concept for a character, that isn't merely race and class? How dare the DM suggest such a thing! I think you might have misunderstood me. Hell, that last sentence is a bit screwy. I meant that I hate it when players feel that the only way a character can be fun and unique is if it's a half drow/half illithid stone golem wizard slayer. Some of the most whacked out, unique characters I've ever seen have been standard issue PHB races with a straight one-class progression. It's all in your skill/feat selection, attitude, and back story. |
| snowlynx05-26-05, 10:52 PM | It's just.....eh, I pick the race based on the character. I think there are plenty of backgrounds where a non-standard race might work better then a standard race; it's not to say the DM should just automatically allow them. In all cases, the DM has to consider how whatever the player is playing will impact his game. I'm not saying that the nonstandard races offer more 'possibilities' then standard races, but rather that it's all equal to me- I'm not going to tell players they can't play drow, or that they shouldn't play humans. If someone comes up with something odd, I need to consider how it will impact my game; if it's going to bog down the game, the answer is definately no. If I can use the character's background and uniqueness to further the game, then I really want that character in the game, regardless of if they're human or drow. How will playing a drow impact a game? In most cases, the character will be viewed with suspicion at best. Sometimes (and often, with me and the other players I play with) we're not only fine with our characters getting chased out of town, we're dissapointed when a DM somehow overlooks a chararacter's flaws rather then exploiting them. Or, where our character makes an awful mistake, we're dissapointed when the DM somehow overlooks it. 'The guards don't care about the fireball...?' The truth is, the players in my game seem to come up with pretty standard race and class combinations, and they have good backgrounds. I'm fine with that; I know if they played something weird, they would come up with equally compelling backgrounds. I tell them mostly that they can do what they want, as long as they think the characters can work together. |