How strong is too strong? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How strong is too strong? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Myzery78
09-15-06, 09:29 PM Hello all, I am currently playing in a campaign that is extremely difficult. We have been averaging 1 PC death per run, and last run we had 2 deaths my character being one of them.

So my question to you all is how much is too much? I almost always build strong characters but while constructing my new character Im unsure about how strong I should make him. I dont want to overshadow my fellow players but at the same time if I make a weak character I might be of no use to the party or I might end up dying again next session.

At the moment Im chosing between a bard(the weak character), a druid with extended creeping colds, or a cleric focusing on animating undead. Personally I'd enjoy the bard most, but making a weak character isnt a serious option.(While I am not saying bards are an inferior class, in an environment with limited roleplaying oppurtunities his uses are limited.

I would appreciate any suggestions or thoughts including alternative character ideas. I am filling the healer role for the group, so any suggestions should keep that in mind.
chava
09-15-06, 09:34 PM From Heros of Horror - the Archivist (arcane wizard whose spells are pulled mainly from the cleric list).
Myzery78
09-15-06, 10:09 PM Im limited to the PHB, completes, and PHB2 so an archivist really isnt an option. Im primarily looking for peoples thoughts on wether its better to play a character whos likely to die or one that overshadows other party members.
Dolomite
09-15-06, 10:28 PM Make a character that can survive, cause if he is dead you wont overshadow anybody. If he is strong enough to live, just play him low key and out of the way when the character is not fighting for his life.
Kapalen
09-15-06, 11:13 PM Make the best character you can, then when you're friends PCs die(as seems to be the pattern) help them make a character as good as yours.
theotherdraxen
09-15-06, 11:40 PM Make the best character you can, then when you're friends PCs die(as seems to be the pattern) help them make a character as good as yours.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Such a good point, it needed to be posted twice. If the rest of the group are role-players, and are inept powergamers (no offense; I'm inept at powergaming), they need your help. You have to be able to balance both worlds, otherwise, the game breaks. If they can't create effective characters, then they need to learn how to.
Reversefigure4
09-15-06, 11:56 PM If your group has at least one PC dying per session, make whatever you like - whatever you don't pick, it sounds like you'll get a chance to make him anyway!
Lord_Varos
09-15-06, 11:58 PM Build the strongest, most indestructible character you can build. Slaughter Tarrasques with your left hand, lay low the gods with your right, and spend all of your treasure on getting your build better equipment for slaying all whom oppose him. The only ceiling on how powerful a build should be in Pun-Pun-esque absolute power.
Everyone else will be glad to watch as your Intensified Fireballs incinerate 5th-level encounter after 5th-level encounter.

But, really, if your DM absolutely does not hold back on his assaults whatsoever, you are fully within your rights to build the biggest, baddest, evilest big bad evil guy you can.
Also, having the most combat power is not as outshine-other-playersy as some believe. If you treat your character's power to destroy enemies in combat as just the ability to help keep your fellows out of negative hit points and not as a story-driving point, everyone will be happy.
LordBolt118
09-16-06, 08:52 AM Hmm...have you considered it might be the DM, not the players? I mean, all's fine and dandy creating a very horrific and hard campaign, but if it's averaging at a death per session, s/he might be overdoing it. Maybe they should check out Umber (http://www.andycollins.net/Campaigns/Umber/Umber.htm) for a good example of a dangerous campaign. On the other hand, if it is the PCs, I concur with letting them die, then helping the players to make new, powerful ones.
kelvinaw273
09-16-06, 04:21 PM Bards are not weak, it is just that their strength is that they can make other characters strong.
trapspringer
09-16-06, 11:49 PM Play your bard. You should never worry about what might happen in a game, because let's face it the cool thing about D&D is you can do crazy **** and not worry about the consequences.

If you are worried about combat, focus on diplomacy. A new feat in the PHB2 will allow you to make a bluff check to temporarily friendly-fy bad guys. Temporary means "just long enough for you to make a diplomacy check."

If you believe you are still vulnerable, use one of your feats to take arcane disciple and pick up some spells you think will best augment your character. The force domain is a good choice for varied applictions, while fire is excellent for offense. Check out complete divine for stuff like that.
KurenaiYami
09-17-06, 01:23 AM Make a character focused around quick movement. And run away from whatever is trying to kill you.
Darkuwa
09-17-06, 04:32 AM Be a Barbarian, never use Rage and wear full plate.
Saberus
09-17-06, 05:00 AM Bard, and make sure you take Expeditious Retreat and True strike. And maybe pick up the maddening song from (I think) the PHB2 or Comp. Adventurer, and use it to drive the DM bonkers (Oh, this is the song that never ends...):twitch: :mymy: :crazy:
MSW
09-28-06, 04:06 PM Personally I'd enjoy the bard most, but making a weak character isnt a serious option.(While I am not saying bards are an inferior class, in an environment with limited roleplaying oppurtunities his uses are limited.

You are missing this. If his group of players are chargers, kick in the door types, then the bard is a bad choice. I've played a bard with such a party, and basically, I'm just running around adding inspire courage and that is it. All the diplomacy and charm is lost if you don't get a chance to act because the barbarian has already raged and charged into combat.

We are going to be of limited help here I think. You know the DM and what has killed the other party members. Was it bad tactics? non-cooperation on PCs? brilliant tactics by npcs? area effect attacks? gang up tactics by the opponents? etc.

You should be able to create a character that has a higher survivability for this campaign. And you should probably do that if surviving is what you want to do.

I'd say pick a class with the highest HD, best BaB and saves possible. You might want to multi-class to get even better saves.

Definately a pow-wow with the other players and the DM to discuss PC mortality is a good idea. Maybe together you all can brainstorm and table the discussion on how dying all the time isn't really that much fun, and while it is part of the game, it's not everyone's favorite part I'm sure.

The DM might even make suggestions about the players play style and tactics that can change everyone's thinking in the way they approach the encounters, if indeed it is there charge ahead tactics that are getting people killed.
Sulaco
09-28-06, 05:30 PM Im limited to the PHB, completes, and PHB2 so an archivist really isnt an option. Im primarily looking for peoples thoughts on wether its better to play a character whos likely to die or one that overshadows other party members.

By the sound of it the other PCs won't be around long enough to overshadow them.

Sounds to me like you have a killer DM on your hands. This is not necessarily a bad thing, you just need to adjust to those paramters. As each PC dies, each player should min/max the living hell out of their new PC - not in an effort to "win" the game or show off but just to survive past 3 sessions. The DM has ramped up the danger level, you need to ramp up your response.

And just for the record, this is probably the only time you will ever see me advocating min/maxing. ;)
AaronDireBear
09-28-06, 08:58 PM Barbarian 20/Frenzied Berserker 10 with Robilar's gambit, combat reflexes, improved combat reflexes, overwelming critical, and devastating critical wielding just about any weapon, through a keen scythe would be rough.
trapspringer
09-29-06, 12:00 AM Talk about thread necromancy. Eleven days.
Keevo_Darkwood
09-29-06, 01:28 AM Talk about thread necromancy. Eleven days.

Eleven days hardly qualifies. Eleven months, perhaps even eleven weeks (depending on the thread) is more the style of thread necros. :emp:
Krusk
09-29-06, 02:02 AM You should definatly go with the bard. No one is going to expect you to go near combat so your character will survive longer than almost all the others.
CaoSlayer
09-29-06, 10:48 AM someone have a link to pun-pun?
malignor
09-29-06, 11:57 AM Bard.
I don't know why a Bard can't do well in a hack & slash.

= Combat-esque Spells =
0: Mage Hand & Ghost Sound
1: Cure Light Wounds, Grease, Hideous Laughter
2: Alter Self (Trog, for natural armor & claws), Blur, Blind/Deaf, Minor Image, Shatter, Silence, Sound Burst, Summon Swarm, Mirror Image
3: Confusion, Dispel Magic, Displacement, Haste, Summon Monster III
4: Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Conjuration, Shout, Summon Monster IV
5: Mislead, Shadow Evocation, Song of Discord, Mass Suggestion, Summon Monster V
6: Irresistable Dance, Greater Shout, Summon Monster VI

= Abilities =
- Bardic Knowledge (learn enemy weaknesses via rumors, stories & legends)
- Use Magic Device (wand-monkey; Cast any 1st-4th level spell)
- So-so combat ability (3/4 BAB, okay W.P., light armor)
- Good skills
- Bardic Music (inspire courage is a fall-back, countersong works more often than you think)

I think Bards can kick ass in any setting
Generic Poster
09-29-06, 02:04 PM Bard.
- Bardic Music (inspire courage is a fall-back, countersong works more often than you think)

I think Bards can kick ass in any setting

Inspire courage is more then just a fall-back, it should be used before every battle if possible. With it, you can contribute significantly to combat while still getting all your normal combat actions to do other stuff.

In general though, one should make the character that makes the party as strong as possible. Often times that's the bard, even though individually it's harder for him to survive (assuming he can't bluff his way out of combat). After all, it's not that far a step from losing a character a session to a TPK.

Since the OP never mentioned what the orginal party makeup is, it's sort of hard to advise him on what character to choose, only to say that everyone needs to look at what will make the entire party stronger as well as being individually strong. For example, frenzied berzerkers is usually a bad idea, but characters that can buff the party or cover a particular weakness are usually good to go with.

Also look at particular tactics, and discuss the possibilities of such tactics with the rest of the party.
solbergb
09-29-06, 03:14 PM The best character in a party where folks design weak characters is a pure support character. Bards are very, very good at bringing weak characters up to their expected power level.

Just remember to make him pretty durable, cause you will probably be forced to help out with the fighting once you've buffed everyone (including yourself) up.

The big downside of bards is that it is almost always the right thing to inspire courage for your first action (and if level 7+, haste first, then inspire courage).

This can get boring. But it's still the right thing to do.
LordBOB777
09-29-06, 06:58 PM What level are you?

Take about 20 minutes or so go to the Char OP boards, to find something that will make your DM cry. It can and will be done by the ever so helpful (if not sometimes conflicted) people at the Char Op Boards.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Myzery78 09-15-06, 09:29 PM	Hello all, I am currently playing in a campaign that is extremely difficult. We have been averaging 1 PC death per run, and last run we had 2 deaths my character being one of them. So my question to you all is how much is too much? I almost always build strong characters but while constructing my new character Im unsure about how strong I should make him. I dont want to overshadow my fellow players but at the same time if I make a weak character I might be of no use to the party or I might end up dying again next session. At the moment Im chosing between a bard(the weak character), a druid with extended creeping colds, or a cleric focusing on animating undead. Personally I'd enjoy the bard most, but making a weak character isnt a serious option.(While I am not saying bards are an inferior class, in an environment with limited roleplaying oppurtunities his uses are limited. I would appreciate any suggestions or thoughts including alternative character ideas. I am filling the healer role for the group, so any suggestions should keep that in mind.
chava 09-15-06, 09:34 PM	From Heros of Horror - the Archivist (arcane wizard whose spells are pulled mainly from the cleric list).
Myzery78 09-15-06, 10:09 PM	Im limited to the PHB, completes, and PHB2 so an archivist really isnt an option. Im primarily looking for peoples thoughts on wether its better to play a character whos likely to die or one that overshadows other party members.
Dolomite 09-15-06, 10:28 PM	Make a character that can survive, cause if he is dead you wont overshadow anybody. If he is strong enough to live, just play him low key and out of the way when the character is not fighting for his life.
Kapalen 09-15-06, 11:13 PM	Make the best character you can, then when you're friends PCs die(as seems to be the pattern) help them make a character as good as yours.
theotherdraxen 09-15-06, 11:40 PM	Make the best character you can, then when you're friends PCs die(as seems to be the pattern) help them make a character as good as yours. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Such a good point, it needed to be posted twice. If the rest of the group are role-players, and are inept powergamers (no offense; I'm inept at powergaming), they need your help. You have to be able to balance both worlds, otherwise, the game breaks. If they can't create effective characters, then they need to learn how to.
Reversefigure4 09-15-06, 11:56 PM	If your group has at least one PC dying per session, make whatever you like - whatever you don't pick, it sounds like you'll get a chance to make him anyway!
Lord_Varos 09-15-06, 11:58 PM	Build the strongest, most indestructible character you can build. Slaughter Tarrasques with your left hand, lay low the gods with your right, and spend all of your treasure on getting your build better equipment for slaying all whom oppose him. The only ceiling on how powerful a build should be in Pun-Pun-esque absolute power. Everyone else will be glad to watch as your Intensified Fireballs incinerate 5th-level encounter after 5th-level encounter. But, really, if your DM absolutely does not hold back on his assaults whatsoever, you are fully within your rights to build the biggest, baddest, evilest big bad evil guy you can. Also, having the most combat power is not as outshine-other-playersy as some believe. If you treat your character's power to destroy enemies in combat as just the ability to help keep your fellows out of negative hit points and not as a story-driving point, everyone will be happy.
LordBolt118 09-16-06, 08:52 AM	Hmm...have you considered it might be the DM, not the players? I mean, all's fine and dandy creating a very horrific and hard campaign, but if it's averaging at a death per session, s/he might be overdoing it. Maybe they should check out Umber (http://www.andycollins.net/Campaigns/Umber/Umber.htm) for a good example of a dangerous campaign. On the other hand, if it is the PCs, I concur with letting them die, then helping the players to make new, powerful ones.
kelvinaw273 09-16-06, 04:21 PM	Bards are not weak, it is just that their strength is that they can make other characters strong.
trapspringer 09-16-06, 11:49 PM	Play your bard. You should never worry about what might happen in a game, because let's face it the cool thing about D&D is you can do crazy **** and not worry about the consequences. If you are worried about combat, focus on diplomacy. A new feat in the PHB2 will allow you to make a bluff check to temporarily friendly-fy bad guys. Temporary means "just long enough for you to make a diplomacy check." If you believe you are still vulnerable, use one of your feats to take arcane disciple and pick up some spells you think will best augment your character. The force domain is a good choice for varied applictions, while fire is excellent for offense. Check out complete divine for stuff like that.
KurenaiYami 09-17-06, 01:23 AM	Make a character focused around quick movement. And run away from whatever is trying to kill you.
Darkuwa 09-17-06, 04:32 AM	Be a Barbarian, never use Rage and wear full plate.
Saberus 09-17-06, 05:00 AM	Bard, and make sure you take Expeditious Retreat and True strike. And maybe pick up the maddening song from (I think) the PHB2 or Comp. Adventurer, and use it to drive the DM bonkers (Oh, this is the song that never ends...):twitch: :mymy: :crazy:
MSW 09-28-06, 04:06 PM	Personally I'd enjoy the bard most, but making a weak character isnt a serious option.(While I am not saying bards are an inferior class, in an environment with limited roleplaying oppurtunities his uses are limited. You are missing this. If his group of players are chargers, kick in the door types, then the bard is a bad choice. I've played a bard with such a party, and basically, I'm just running around adding inspire courage and that is it. All the diplomacy and charm is lost if you don't get a chance to act because the barbarian has already raged and charged into combat. We are going to be of limited help here I think. You know the DM and what has killed the other party members. Was it bad tactics? non-cooperation on PCs? brilliant tactics by npcs? area effect attacks? gang up tactics by the opponents? etc. You should be able to create a character that has a higher survivability for this campaign. And you should probably do that if surviving is what you want to do. I'd say pick a class with the highest HD, best BaB and saves possible. You might want to multi-class to get even better saves. Definately a pow-wow with the other players and the DM to discuss PC mortality is a good idea. Maybe together you all can brainstorm and table the discussion on how dying all the time isn't really that much fun, and while it is part of the game, it's not everyone's favorite part I'm sure. The DM might even make suggestions about the players play style and tactics that can change everyone's thinking in the way they approach the encounters, if indeed it is there charge ahead tactics that are getting people killed.
Sulaco 09-28-06, 05:30 PM	Im limited to the PHB, completes, and PHB2 so an archivist really isnt an option. Im primarily looking for peoples thoughts on wether its better to play a character whos likely to die or one that overshadows other party members. By the sound of it the other PCs won't be around long enough to overshadow them. Sounds to me like you have a killer DM on your hands. This is not necessarily a bad thing, you just need to adjust to those paramters. As each PC dies, each player should min/max the living hell out of their new PC - not in an effort to "win" the game or show off but just to survive past 3 sessions. The DM has ramped up the danger level, you need to ramp up your response. And just for the record, this is probably the only time you will ever see me advocating min/maxing. ;)
AaronDireBear 09-28-06, 08:58 PM	Barbarian 20/Frenzied Berserker 10 with Robilar's gambit, combat reflexes, improved combat reflexes, overwelming critical, and devastating critical wielding just about any weapon, through a keen scythe would be rough.
trapspringer 09-29-06, 12:00 AM	Talk about thread necromancy. Eleven days.
Keevo_Darkwood 09-29-06, 01:28 AM	Talk about thread necromancy. Eleven days. Eleven days hardly qualifies. Eleven months, perhaps even eleven weeks (depending on the thread) is more the style of thread necros. :emp:
Krusk 09-29-06, 02:02 AM	You should definatly go with the bard. No one is going to expect you to go near combat so your character will survive longer than almost all the others.
CaoSlayer 09-29-06, 10:48 AM	someone have a link to pun-pun?
malignor 09-29-06, 11:57 AM	Bard. I don't know why a Bard can't do well in a hack & slash. = Combat-esque Spells = 0: Mage Hand & Ghost Sound 1: Cure Light Wounds, Grease, Hideous Laughter 2: Alter Self (Trog, for natural armor & claws), Blur, Blind/Deaf, Minor Image, Shatter, Silence, Sound Burst, Summon Swarm, Mirror Image 3: Confusion, Dispel Magic, Displacement, Haste, Summon Monster III 4: Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Conjuration, Shout, Summon Monster IV 5: Mislead, Shadow Evocation, Song of Discord, Mass Suggestion, Summon Monster V 6: Irresistable Dance, Greater Shout, Summon Monster VI = Abilities = - Bardic Knowledge (learn enemy weaknesses via rumors, stories & legends) - Use Magic Device (wand-monkey; Cast any 1st-4th level spell) - So-so combat ability (3/4 BAB, okay W.P., light armor) - Good skills - Bardic Music (inspire courage is a fall-back, countersong works more often than you think) I think Bards can kick ass in any setting
Generic Poster 09-29-06, 02:04 PM	Bard. - Bardic Music (inspire courage is a fall-back, countersong works more often than you think) I think Bards can kick ass in any setting Inspire courage is more then just a fall-back, it should be used before every battle if possible. With it, you can contribute significantly to combat while still getting all your normal combat actions to do other stuff. In general though, one should make the character that makes the party as strong as possible. Often times that's the bard, even though individually it's harder for him to survive (assuming he can't bluff his way out of combat). After all, it's not that far a step from losing a character a session to a TPK. Since the OP never mentioned what the orginal party makeup is, it's sort of hard to advise him on what character to choose, only to say that everyone needs to look at what will make the entire party stronger as well as being individually strong. For example, frenzied berzerkers is usually a bad idea, but characters that can buff the party or cover a particular weakness are usually good to go with. Also look at particular tactics, and discuss the possibilities of such tactics with the rest of the party.
solbergb 09-29-06, 03:14 PM	The best character in a party where folks design weak characters is a pure support character. Bards are very, very good at bringing weak characters up to their expected power level. Just remember to make him pretty durable, cause you will probably be forced to help out with the fighting once you've buffed everyone (including yourself) up. The big downside of bards is that it is almost always the right thing to inspire courage for your first action (and if level 7+, haste first, then inspire courage). This can get boring. But it's still the right thing to do.
LordBOB777 09-29-06, 06:58 PM	What level are you? Take about 20 minutes or so go to the Char OP boards, to find something that will make your DM cry. It can and will be done by the ever so helpful (if not sometimes conflicted) people at the Char Op Boards.