How to balance random spell-list? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How to balance random spell-list? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Koga:The ninja trick
08-06-04, 11:46 AM The Koga has been given the oppurtunity in a game to attempt to put a new spin on the sorcerer to add fun-effect. My mission should I choose to accept it is to instill a system that will increase the sorcerer's spell-list, but at the cost of pre-knowledge. Another words a random outburst of spells known. This could be both fun and challenging for any player. :D

However, how would I go about doing this? Dice? A deck of cards? Some form of theme using schools of magic? There is so many cool spells that go unused all over the net/wotc books it'd be a shame not to have a chance to let them shine, any ideas and feedback would be much appreciated. :)
Stuntman
08-06-04, 12:24 PM Restricting the players ability to customise a character the way he likes will likely lead to being less fun for the player. What happens if you roll randomly and the spells he gets are Erase and Floating Disk? He's really going to have fun with that. He's basically a pack mule with an eraser.

One time long ago, our DM didn't allow us to choose the race of our character. We had to roll randomly. Sure it was more realistic because normally we don't get to choose our race before we are born, but it wasn't fun.

A sorcerer is already has a very limited number of spells he knows. Give him random spells and no one will want to play one. Although the sorcerer seems to just learn spells out of no where, you need to consider the class from a player's point of view. A player will want to choose how his character is built within the rules of the game. All other classes allow this choice in the abilities of the class. You wouldn't randomly determine the feats of a fighter, so you shouldn't randomly determine the spells of a sorcerer.
Stuntman
08-06-04, 12:39 PM DP. First one in years.:embarrass
Derren S.
08-06-04, 01:24 PM I remember that the Council of Wyrms had a random spell system (Dice were rolled)

But that was 2nd edition and you weren't totally gimped when you recived bad spells.
tarkin
08-06-04, 01:43 PM Random spells would need a complex set of rules. This is what I would do:

Players can pick the following:

1) They ALWAYS get to choose the level of the spell they get (Technically using 3rd edition rules if it says a sorceror gets a 3rd level spell, they are allowed to choose a lower level spell instead.).

2) For each level, I would divide the spells into the following sets:

A) Offensive
B) Defensive
C) Utilitarian.

3) When a Sorceror gets to learn a new spell of x level or better, he tells me which set he wants to learn from.

If he choose A, he gets a single randomly rolled spell from set A.
If he choose B, he gets a single randomly rolled spell from set B.
If he choose C, he gets TWO randomly rolled spells from set C.

This way he will always have enough offensive spells and Defensive spells, and would get extra utilitarian spells, even though they were not chosen.

4) When they use the even level ability to replace there spell, I would let them PICK the replacement spell they wanted, not force a re-roll.

--------------------------------
Note, this still is a bad choice in my opinion. Too many spells are good combinations (Non-detection + Greater Invisibility are practically a lock step - get one you need the other.).

By randomizing the spells you also prevent sorcerors from picking intelligent feats (He may pick Weapon Focus (Rays) at first level, but NEVER get another Ray attack spell by random chance.)
MrkGrismer
08-06-04, 02:18 PM Originally posted by tarkin
2) For each level, I would divide the spells into the following sets:

A) Offensive
B) Defensive
C) Utilitarian.

I think that dropped out of a wormhole from 1st ed.

[Nevermind, nothing to see here.]

:D
Koga:The ninja trick
08-06-04, 07:35 PM Alright, here's my idea for a true sorcerer.

When I begin play I shuffle my poker deck of 54-cards. This fifty four card deck contains differant spells I have chosen to representent the sorcerer's pontential. (Hardly broken, most of the spells you'd never see a constructed sorcerer use, but that's half the fun. :D )

I draw a number of cards equal to my cha modifier. At each additional level I do this for the spell I am able to cast. I have a player's handbook to keep track of this. I start drawing cards for level 2 spells at fourth level.

At an eighteen charisma this would mean a total of twelve level 1 spells. That's more then double what the average sorcerer can learn. HOWEVER.. It relies on the luck of the draw. As only about 15% of the spell-cards in the deck could actively be described as useful by regular D&D standards.. Having the power to choose your spells is alot better then relying on luck, but where's the fun in that?!

Now cantrips are a bit more difficult, if I am going to use the spell-point system how much would a level zero spell cost? Well I'd say 1/2 a point is fair and balanced.. But how to go about learning them is the question. Well my PH suggests by level two sorcerers learn thier maxium level 0 spells that being six. Clearly randomly generated results=more spells, so instead I picked twenty spells to represent the cantrips and each level up untill level four I roll 2d20 to see what spells I learn. That's a total of eight level zero spells! (Inorder to garantee a success rate I will have to scratch out the spell once I've learned it and replace it with another. But the luck factor remains the same..)

I am not sure how particularly game-breaking this will be. But It can't be too much more powerful then the player's handbook or battle mage variant of monte cook's..

As for some feats and such I had in mind, here's my ideas..

Hadoken. [Metamagic]
Prequisite: Sorcerer or Wizard class.
Ability: The sorcerer/wizard gains the ability to change arcane spell energy into a massively large missle, manifesting it as a bolt of raw magical energy. The bolt is a ranged touch attack with long range (400 feet + 40 feet/caster level of sorcerer/wizard.) that deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level of sorcerer/wizard. (If both, whichever is greater.) You may manifest this ability once per day as a spell-like ability. (See game rules for spell-like abilities.)

Magic Nexus. [Special]
Prequisite: Atleast 4th level sorcerer.
Ability: You may draw a number of spell-cards to learn extra from the spell-deck of one level lower then your maxium. (For instance if level four with an eighteen cha, draw four cards from your level-1 deck..) Unlike regular learning of spells your finding out a deeper sense of self but can only delve so far without going utterly insane. So choose one of the cards you drew and shuffle it back into the deck once you have drawn the appropiate amount. (For instance the 18cha sorcerer drew four level-1 cards, chooses one, shuffles it back into the deck and now has tapped into his inner being and learned three new level-1 spells.) You may gain this feat multiple times but as a penalty you may not gain this feat more then once per level.

So, what'dya think? :)
bard_4_life
08-06-04, 07:55 PM A fan of 8BT, eh? This new sorcerer sounds like fun, but it could get frustrating. Maybe try adding a "do-over" if you end up with garbage.
Koga:The ninja trick
08-06-04, 11:11 PM Originally posted by bard_4_life
A fan of 8BT, eh? This new sorcerer sounds like fun, but it could get frustrating. Maybe try adding a "do-over" if you end up with garbage.
Thanks, use to be, till I actually met Brian Clevinger. Told him he was my idol cause I like to write and make people laugh too, not only did his girlfriend hate me, (We had an argument, I appalogized but explained her offenssive cause what she said had something related to my mom, forgot what it was now but I fealt the need to defend.) but he pulled a Chenny on me and called me a naughty. :P

I tried emailing him to say no hard feelings and we should like go out for some fish and chips or something. I never got an email back. :(

Street Fighter still rules though. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koga:The ninja trick 08-06-04, 11:46 AM	The Koga has been given the oppurtunity in a game to attempt to put a new spin on the sorcerer to add fun-effect. My mission should I choose to accept it is to instill a system that will increase the sorcerer's spell-list, but at the cost of pre-knowledge. Another words a random outburst of spells known. This could be both fun and challenging for any player. :D However, how would I go about doing this? Dice? A deck of cards? Some form of theme using schools of magic? There is so many cool spells that go unused all over the net/wotc books it'd be a shame not to have a chance to let them shine, any ideas and feedback would be much appreciated. :)
Stuntman 08-06-04, 12:24 PM	Restricting the players ability to customise a character the way he likes will likely lead to being less fun for the player. What happens if you roll randomly and the spells he gets are Erase and Floating Disk? He's really going to have fun with that. He's basically a pack mule with an eraser. One time long ago, our DM didn't allow us to choose the race of our character. We had to roll randomly. Sure it was more realistic because normally we don't get to choose our race before we are born, but it wasn't fun. A sorcerer is already has a very limited number of spells he knows. Give him random spells and no one will want to play one. Although the sorcerer seems to just learn spells out of no where, you need to consider the class from a player's point of view. A player will want to choose how his character is built within the rules of the game. All other classes allow this choice in the abilities of the class. You wouldn't randomly determine the feats of a fighter, so you shouldn't randomly determine the spells of a sorcerer.
Stuntman 08-06-04, 12:39 PM	DP. First one in years.:embarrass
Derren S. 08-06-04, 01:24 PM	I remember that the Council of Wyrms had a random spell system (Dice were rolled) But that was 2nd edition and you weren't totally gimped when you recived bad spells.
tarkin 08-06-04, 01:43 PM	Random spells would need a complex set of rules. This is what I would do: Players can pick the following: 1) They ALWAYS get to choose the level of the spell they get (Technically using 3rd edition rules if it says a sorceror gets a 3rd level spell, they are allowed to choose a lower level spell instead.). 2) For each level, I would divide the spells into the following sets: A) Offensive B) Defensive C) Utilitarian. 3) When a Sorceror gets to learn a new spell of x level or better, he tells me which set he wants to learn from. If he choose A, he gets a single randomly rolled spell from set A. If he choose B, he gets a single randomly rolled spell from set B. If he choose C, he gets TWO randomly rolled spells from set C. This way he will always have enough offensive spells and Defensive spells, and would get extra utilitarian spells, even though they were not chosen. 4) When they use the even level ability to replace there spell, I would let them PICK the replacement spell they wanted, not force a re-roll. -------------------------------- Note, this still is a bad choice in my opinion. Too many spells are good combinations (Non-detection + Greater Invisibility are practically a lock step - get one you need the other.). By randomizing the spells you also prevent sorcerors from picking intelligent feats (He may pick Weapon Focus (Rays) at first level, but NEVER get another Ray attack spell by random chance.)
MrkGrismer 08-06-04, 02:18 PM	Originally posted by tarkin 2) For each level, I would divide the spells into the following sets: A) Offensive B) Defensive C) Utilitarian. I think that dropped out of a wormhole from 1st ed. [Nevermind, nothing to see here.] :D
Koga:The ninja trick 08-06-04, 07:35 PM	Alright, here's my idea for a true sorcerer. When I begin play I shuffle my poker deck of 54-cards. This fifty four card deck contains differant spells I have chosen to representent the sorcerer's pontential. (Hardly broken, most of the spells you'd never see a constructed sorcerer use, but that's half the fun. :D ) I draw a number of cards equal to my cha modifier. At each additional level I do this for the spell I am able to cast. I have a player's handbook to keep track of this. I start drawing cards for level 2 spells at fourth level. At an eighteen charisma this would mean a total of twelve level 1 spells. That's more then double what the average sorcerer can learn. HOWEVER.. It relies on the luck of the draw. As only about 15% of the spell-cards in the deck could actively be described as useful by regular D&D standards.. Having the power to choose your spells is alot better then relying on luck, but where's the fun in that?! Now cantrips are a bit more difficult, if I am going to use the spell-point system how much would a level zero spell cost? Well I'd say 1/2 a point is fair and balanced.. But how to go about learning them is the question. Well my PH suggests by level two sorcerers learn thier maxium level 0 spells that being six. Clearly randomly generated results=more spells, so instead I picked twenty spells to represent the cantrips and each level up untill level four I roll 2d20 to see what spells I learn. That's a total of eight level zero spells! (Inorder to garantee a success rate I will have to scratch out the spell once I've learned it and replace it with another. But the luck factor remains the same..) I am not sure how particularly game-breaking this will be. But It can't be too much more powerful then the player's handbook or battle mage variant of monte cook's.. As for some feats and such I had in mind, here's my ideas.. Hadoken. [Metamagic] Prequisite: Sorcerer or Wizard class. Ability: The sorcerer/wizard gains the ability to change arcane spell energy into a massively large missle, manifesting it as a bolt of raw magical energy. The bolt is a ranged touch attack with long range (400 feet + 40 feet/caster level of sorcerer/wizard.) that deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level of sorcerer/wizard. (If both, whichever is greater.) You may manifest this ability once per day as a spell-like ability. (See game rules for spell-like abilities.) Magic Nexus. [Special] Prequisite: Atleast 4th level sorcerer. Ability: You may draw a number of spell-cards to learn extra from the spell-deck of one level lower then your maxium. (For instance if level four with an eighteen cha, draw four cards from your level-1 deck..) Unlike regular learning of spells your finding out a deeper sense of self but can only delve so far without going utterly insane. So choose one of the cards you drew and shuffle it back into the deck once you have drawn the appropiate amount. (For instance the 18cha sorcerer drew four level-1 cards, chooses one, shuffles it back into the deck and now has tapped into his inner being and learned three new level-1 spells.) You may gain this feat multiple times but as a penalty you may not gain this feat more then once per level. So, what'dya think? :)
bard_4_life 08-06-04, 07:55 PM	A fan of 8BT, eh? This new sorcerer sounds like fun, but it could get frustrating. Maybe try adding a "do-over" if you end up with garbage.
Koga:The ninja trick 08-06-04, 11:11 PM	Originally posted by bard_4_life A fan of 8BT, eh? This new sorcerer sounds like fun, but it could get frustrating. Maybe try adding a "do-over" if you end up with garbage. Thanks, use to be, till I actually met Brian Clevinger. Told him he was my idol cause I like to write and make people laugh too, not only did his girlfriend hate me, (We had an argument, I appalogized but explained her offenssive cause what she said had something related to my mom, forgot what it was now but I fealt the need to defend.) but he pulled a Chenny on me and called me a naughty. :P I tried emailing him to say no hard feelings and we should like go out for some fish and chips or something. I never got an email back. :( Street Fighter still rules though. :)