Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Devinstater 07-21-05, 01:03 PM	Recently, due to the balance card in a Deck of Many Things, my NG Priest of Pelor (lvl6), became NE. The problem is, I am fairly new, and I don't really get what kind of things an evil dooer would do. For example, another character needs to kill the first opponant he sees, and he gains a lvl. Would an *evil* character forget this just to screw him over? Any general RP tips for evil characters would be great. My DM says I will lose a lvl if I don't rp him evily, but I DO want to try and live up to the RP aspect. Also, my DM says I need to try and get at least 1 spell per level prepared with the evil descriptor. I don't think there are any at lvl 1-2 in the PHB. What is a good spell selection flavour wise for an evil cleric? Thanks.
The Amazing Dancing Bear 07-21-05, 01:16 PM	First of all, don't forget that u now rebuke, command, and spontaneously inflict. Corrupt water works like bless water, but it creates water that damages good outsiders. A summon monster spell that creates an evil creature is an evil spell. Roleplaying: Do whatever you want to get on top while busily not caring about anyone else. This is elucidated upon in Ch. 6 of the PHB. It can be a kick to be evil, so enjoy!
Gilean 07-21-05, 01:22 PM	Understand that the strong deserve to rule over the weak. You are strong. Embrace the doctrine. Alternatively, or possibly simultaneously, start sacrificing babies and paladins to Nerull, or equivalence thereof. The one evil spell / level is a house rule. If you had good domain, ask if it is changed to evil one.
crazysamaritan 07-21-05, 01:29 PM	Do you have the best weapon in the group? Best armour? Why not? You're a cleric, the most powerful class. Therefore, you're the best party member. You're the one who makes the decisions, and it's your job to make sure wealth is distrubuted evenly, and that everyone is given accourding to their ability. You're the best, so you need the best equiptment. Anyone in the party who doesn't agree with you will learn what it means to anger your god. Best case senario; they're left naked by the side of the road.
Clawhound 07-21-05, 01:34 PM	Going, "Bwhahaha..." and running around like an evil nut will end your evil life real quick. You are now evil, not impulsive, or stupid, or short sighted. Now, HOW are you evil? Are you greedy? Power hungry? Ammoral? Insideous? Destructive? Once you know what your character actually WANTS, or LACKS, then he can go about being evil. The greedy character can always fight for more share, or abuse his position for more wealth. The power-hungry will seek more power. The ammoral will never consider the benefit of others. And so on. You get the idea.
friedmad 07-21-05, 01:38 PM	being evil does not mean sinning because your alignment 'lets' you... the Evil part of your alignment just means that your personal philosophy dictates the advancement and well-being of the individual instead of the community or people at-large. the Neutral part of your alignment means you dont need to consider laws to act, or you can do things randomly, or you can - its up to you... So basically, NE means your personal philosophy is 'what's in it for me and what's the best way to get it'
Vrykolas2k 07-21-05, 02:05 PM	Well... It DOESN'T necessarily entail saying or doing things that automatically make everyone else offended. Be smart about it. And mature... I have no idea how many idiots I've run into who think that raping virgins is the thing to do because of their allignment.
Demortis 07-21-05, 02:34 PM	Well... It DOESN'T necessarily entail saying or doing things that automatically make everyone else offended. Be smart about it. And mature... I have no idea how many idiots I've run into who think that raping virgins is the thing to do because of their allignment. yea, ive seen that all to often, and being LE myself at times i let them meet my friend bubba :D a half-red dragon troll :D and let them go into a dark corner in a room and "talk" things over. but, anyways, NE, "Might makes right" is the way to go IMO. and if a town "angers" you or your god, you could always burn it :D
rbrt_Spade 07-21-05, 02:37 PM	also you have to switch over to a evil god read the alignment dep. of ne in the phb
Arindor 07-21-05, 02:50 PM	OK first things first. Right now you are not a cleric. You are a second rate fighter. This is because Pelor has forsaken you. Neutral evil as a philosophy is to enter into each situation with the question "What is the best for me?". So your first order of business is to improve your situation and find a new god. Then you basically play as usual but with these general rules to help guide you: 1) Don't take a risk unless the payoff is worth it 2) Nothing comes for free unless doing something now will help you alot later. 3) How can I get the best stuff/power/ etc without getting everyone mad at me and turning on me? 4) I work with the others unless it serves me better in the long run to do otherwise.
Red_Ninja 07-21-05, 02:52 PM	Yes they are all correct... Does your group know that you are evil now? Maybe you should try to remain a cleric of pelor, and abuse the religion... for example, if you are a power-hungry evil cleric of pelor, you could take confession from people, demand pennance of them (to your betterment) by demanding monetary sacrifices, and then, through a third party, blackmail them (if possible)-- evil character (successful ones anyways) need to think outside the box... also, decide if you (as a player) want to play a evil cleric... - if you find that you do like being evil, you need to be a lot more careful about hiding your true "colors", especially from the people who know you best... Evil characters can still be nice, pleasant, and courteous people, especially when there is something to gain from such pleasant behavior...there is no reason to ever let anyone know that they are merely means to an end (hey that almost rhymes with friend...coincidence?)
Gedrin 07-21-05, 03:05 PM	I tend to view NE characters in the following way. You are flexible as to the social codes of the day. They're tools to use, or not, as needed. The laws of society are to be used to serve your ends. You are unbound by any considerations of others or what is right. Only you and those that are valuable to you, matter. Good and evil are irrelivant, only your objectives are important. I'd recomend looking at what your character wants. Don't come up with new desires unless you were purely altruistic. Then, simply think how your character could persue those objectives in the quickest and most efficient way possible. A good example might be that you wanted to protect people from the undead. If you've played WoW, you can now leave behind your old ways and join up with the "by any means necessary" crowd at the Scarlet Brotherhood. Go out and "convert" those that aren't willing to wage unrelenting war against the undead. Their weakness is what makes such abominations possible and that weakness will not be tollerated. Another example might be that you were a doctor. So, naturally, you want the best medicines and magic possible so that you may do the greatest good for the greatest number of people. It then becomes acceptable to experiment on a few people in order to gain new understandings of medicine and develop new drugs, regardless of the desires of, or consequences to, those people. At war with an evil land? The best way to defeat them is to break their will to fight and eliminate the support mechanisms. Why expend the lives of your nation's troops fighting an army when you could whipe out the farmers that support the army with just a few well trained people? While you could totally change your character and go the "baby killer" route, I think you'd find it much more interesting, and easier to stay with the party, if you just adopted a different attitude about your objectives. You needn't be out specifically to spread darkness over the world, just not be bothered about what the right thing to do is and willing to persue your goals with every tool at your disposal.
Vrykolas2k 07-21-05, 09:10 PM	I tend to view NE characters in the following way. You are flexible as to the social codes of the day. They're tools to use, or not, as needed. The laws of society are to be used to serve your ends. You are unbound by any considerations of others or what is right. Only you and those that are valuable to you, matter. Good and evil are irrelivant, only your objectives are important. I'd recomend looking at what your character wants. Don't come up with new desires unless you were purely altruistic. Then, simply think how your character could persue those objectives in the quickest and most efficient way possible. A good example might be that you wanted to protect people from the undead. If you've played WoW, you can now leave behind your old ways and join up with the "by any means necessary" crowd at the Scarlet Brotherhood. Go out and "convert" those that aren't willing to wage unrelenting war against the undead. Their weakness is what makes such abominations possible and that weakness will not be tollerated. Another example might be that you were a doctor. So, naturally, you want the best medicines and magic possible so that you may do the greatest good for the greatest number of people. It then becomes acceptable to experiment on a few people in order to gain new understandings of medicine and develop new drugs, regardless of the desires of, or consequences to, those people. At war with an evil land? The best way to defeat them is to break their will to fight and eliminate the support mechanisms. Why expend the lives of your nation's troops fighting an army when you could whipe out the farmers that support the army with just a few well trained people? While you could totally change your character and go the "baby killer" route, I think you'd find it much more interesting, and easier to stay with the party, if you just adopted a different attitude about your objectives. You needn't be out specifically to spread darkness over the world, just not be bothered about what the right thing to do is and willing to persue your goals with every tool at your disposal. Very, very well said.
Mirikon 07-22-05, 01:46 AM	Recently, due to the balance card in a Deck of Many Things, my NG Priest of Pelor (lvl6), became NE. The problem is, I am fairly new, and I don't really get what kind of things an evil dooer would do. For example, another character needs to kill the first opponant he sees, and he gains a lvl. Would an *evil* character forget this just to screw him over? Any general RP tips for evil characters would be great. My DM says I will lose a lvl if I don't rp him evily, but I DO want to try and live up to the RP aspect. Also, my DM says I need to try and get at least 1 spell per level prepared with the evil descriptor. I don't think there are any at lvl 1-2 in the PHB. What is a good spell selection flavour wise for an evil cleric? Thanks. 1) Evil does not mean stupid. 2) Evil does not mean psychotic killer. 3) Evil does not mean 'screw the party over at every opportunity'. 4) Evil does not mean 'don't get along with good people'. 5) Evil does not mean 'puppy kicker'. Evil looks out for #1 above all others. It does not mean that you kill a man because he is standing between you and the keg. Evil characters can get along just fine with good characters, unless they do the whole 'I'm evil!' thing, or are blatant with their actions. It is generally the Good people who feel the need to take down the evil people. Evil characters can adventure alongside good people, and still be evil. Whether a deed is good or evil depends on the act, the intention, and the motivation.
Valgaav 07-22-05, 02:13 AM	http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=445094 Has everything you need to start doing. there was another thread, but it quickly got into "built a statue of Nerull out of human bodies"-ish things.
Claggart 07-22-05, 11:00 AM	This all touches closely to a subject I was going to bring up in a new thread. After watching Batman Begins I was talking to a friend about believable evil, versus insane evil. Gedrin fairly well nails the point we eventually came to. Too often (in games, books, movies, etc...) the BBEG is "evil for the sake of evil". That is to say power hungry, greedy, insane, bent on revenge, or just a real SOB. I prefer a more intelligent evil. The best BBEGs have an altruistic goal that they have warped by pursuing it to an extreme. Another version of this is the altruistic intention for a small group, to the exclusion of all other. It is this type of evil that forces good guys to face moral quandries. "By sacrificing one soul every tenday I can guarantee your country will be free of disease. Surely the lives of a few convicted criminals is worth the health and prosperity of the good citizens." As Gedrin said, pick a cause or goal that your character was already pursuing and push it to the next "logical" level. The motto of a NE character should be "the ends ALWAYS justify the means." Claggart
LCD2YOU 07-22-05, 11:15 AM	of describing evil. Here's the rub though: You can still think you're a "good" person. You are just far more "expedient" in how things get done. You can still be totally in favor of ridding the world of evil! See, you're not evil. You do what must be done and that is all. Remember that. Remember all that soul searching you had to do about the orcish kids? No more problems for you. Just slaughter them. Everyone knows that they will grow up big, "stoopid" and evil so kill them now. It really should be obvious to everyone with half a brain, but sadly, it's not. Now remember your friends are your friends, but as you know they'll use you, don't be afraid to make use of them. If one or more start questioning your new found tactics, remind them that you are on their side. You should help them learn that the "old ways", the ways that let things happen as they do now, are not worth it. Help them and be patient, unless it causes what you know to be a righteous act to fall apart. If the act falls apart because they "felt sorry for it" or "did not think it to be the right action". Remember it is best to let someone else take care of the situation, however it needs to play out. Why do you have to do everything. Just drop a few hints and find the evidence and then let another know about it. Then the situation is resolved and you helped another to see the light. Pelor? Sure, you're doing Pelor's work. You are just being more direct in your methods. :angelhide
Devinstater 07-22-05, 11:58 AM	Thanks guys. My DM houseruled that I now draw my powers from the general evil in the world and have no particular God or domain powers. (I lose my Healing & Sun domains, obviously.) But I retain spellcasting ability. Thanks for the advice. I didn't want to be a puppy kicker, so this allows me to RP my alignment while staying with the party (mosre fun OOC) + we are currently doing something my character would approve of Good or Evil. (My home town was taken over by some evil force, that has the whole city charmed comatose or under their command, and we are part of the resistance to free it.) The party has no knowledge that I am evil. At least 1 knows OOC because he recognized the card from the Deck of many Things. So I don't want to be found out and have to play it under the radar somewhat.
Mirikon 07-22-05, 01:51 PM	Thanks guys. My DM houseruled that I now draw my powers from the general evil in the world and have no particular God or domain powers. (I lose my Healing & Sun domains, obviously.) But I retain spellcasting ability. Thanks for the advice. I didn't want to be a puppy kicker, so this allows me to RP my alignment while staying with the party (mosre fun OOC) + we are currently doing something my character would approve of Good or Evil. (My home town was taken over by some evil force, that has the whole city charmed comatose or under their command, and we are part of the resistance to free it.) The party has no knowledge that I am evil. At least 1 knows OOC because he recognized the card from the Deck of many Things. So I don't want to be found out and have to play it under the radar somewhat. I remember a CE warlock of mine who adventured alongside a Paladin. She was a manipulator and corruptor, though. She had the Paladin so convinced that she was a good gal, and that her course of action was the right one that the Paladin never did get around to using Detect Evil on her. What you wanna do is work on spinning things to look most favorably on you. Watch certain political figures to get an idea of how to spin things. Ralph Reed is good at it. A Paladin cannot adventure with an evil character, but if he doesn't know the character is evil, then there's no reason why things would change.
LCD2YOU 07-22-05, 04:41 PM	that one player seems to have. Here's something to do to send that guy off on the wrong path: Lie that your character is not evil. Remember, your character is not evil, he's good! He's just a little more direct (don't tell him that). When and if the other player keeps on asking, just say, "Look. My guy wants to destroy the evil in his town. He doesn't like what happened there and he wants to set it right. You should also know that he still does not like undead and wants to destroy them as well. Yeah, something not too good happened to my character but that's ok. Hey, I still cast cure and healing spells, right?" Don't forget, you can cast cures and heals but no longer "as needed". You're going to have to ask for those ones. The only issue I can see is your rebuking undead. Tell the party that you've learned how to rebuke (thanks to the card you drew). Now, you can set undead upon undead. So, when you get to a place where you'll need to face a pack of ghouls, command half and have them attack the ones you didn't rebuke! See, using evil to destroy evil. That must be a good thing.
Devinstater 08-08-05, 12:32 PM	I figured I would post an update on what happened so far. We sold the first Gem of the adventure to finance our gear. As we uncovered more of these, we realized our goof and that we should have kept it. So, we spoke to the Resistance Leader, and he used scrying and located the gem, gave us rough directions and a week off from the resistance movement to go do our thing with this gem. (Some evil forces usualy try to jump us and take the gems.) My DM ruled that I know have the Evil and Death domains. Which are balls, but whatever. We went out, had a few encounters, where I used a whack load of spontaneously Inflict spells. It was my watch when we got attacked by a type of critter, and not everyone was awake in time, but they all saw at least one Inflict go off, and I got off a few more that day. (Our main fighter is dead, and we know his new character will be intro'd this session.) So I have to pick up a lot of the fighting slack, and Inflict Moderate was sorely needed to avoid dying. So there was their hint #1. Also, we were in a dungeon near the end of session, and we met up with a Wraith, who I Rebuked in awe. Twice in case they missed it the first time. Hint #2. We found a warforged in the dungeon, and vowed to help him destroy the city, so he helped us get the gem back and took damage, of which I healed him. I guess they have a house rule type deal where getting healed by an evil cleric hurts. Because that's how my magic was described to him. I played it off that my god must have something against him for being unatural. But that will only last until I cure one of my other party members. I've talked the bard into using his cure spells, so that I can use my offensive magics, but eventually when I cure people, the party will be alerted that I'm evil and I'll have some splaining to do. I've also managed to get some skeletons into my pack from the dungeon crawl without anyone noticing, incase I want to animate some corpses in the future. I've found that being evil forced me to be more offensive, and that I'm really pulling my own weight now. And the screacy aspect is fun. Nothing really happend yet, but when I get found out, which will be soon, the canned excuses you guys wrote down for me will be golden, and really helped me get a good idea of where I want this character to go.
Atragon 08-08-05, 12:47 PM	The ironic thing is that cure/inflict is interchangable and doesn't really tell you anything about the alignment of the cleric in question since they could (if good) have requested a whack of inflicts and then spontaneously cured instead, where an evil cleric would request a whack of cures and spontaneously inflict instead as needed. If they question why you don't seem to heal that much anymore, just do the 'I have exhausted my divine energies' routine... ;) Also, everyone else is right, the PHB defines LNC as 'follows a code' 'disregards code as needed' 'no code' at all. And GNE as 'for the good of others' 'a mix' 'for the good of themselves' So there is usually nothing wrong with acting such that your actions (now taken to benefit yourself) just happen to benefit others, and presenting things in the light that your actions were in fact taken to benefit others (since they ultimately did... right?)
crazysamaritan 08-08-05, 01:04 PM	To stave off some of the identification, I advise wands. Even as a normal cleric, I like to have a wand of CLW, since it's the most efficent way to cure people.
Devinstater 08-08-05, 04:10 PM	To stave off some of the identification, I advise wands. Even as a normal cleric, I like to have a wand of CLW, since it's the most efficent way to cure people. Hmm, I don't know how I am going to pull that one off before I am forced to cure someone again. However, that is a very excellent way around the issue.
spoogemonkey 08-08-05, 04:49 PM	you hit on a very important point - if you want to survive - you need to be SNEAKY evil. Hide your evil. You can commit Horrible acts.... if no one sees them, or you can blame someone else for it. You may lie with alacrity. A good lie will cover up many an evil deed. If you can come up with a fake "good" reason for your actions - you can get away with murder (literally). Take every opportunity to kill and rob.... in private. If you murder someone - be sure and burn down the building, or implicate another party. Leave evidence at the scene of your crimes.... implicating others. Use good people for your evil schemes by telling them lies. Become a hero and you can get away with Bigger evil. Example: Infect the town with a disease that you Already have a cure for. SELL them the cure. You become their hero. They don't know you CAUSED the disease. Pretend you are a healer. Pick a fight that starts a war. Then, win the war. Heroes get the benefit of the doubt. As a cleric people will trust you. Don't throw away the old religious symbols. Take them in private, promise to "take care of their family", tell them they are sicker than they realize, get them to will everything to you (or FORGE a new Will) .... and then kill them. Hey - everyone already knew they were sick, right? Give candy to children. Be SEEN giving candy to children. It will be useful to gain their confidence. One day you may need to infect the city - what better way than infected candy? Have a Grand Evil Goal. This should entail great wealth and Power. There are no innocent people for you anymore. You may discard people that no longer serve your purposes. Anyone that knows your secrets.... must die. But, you can wait until they help you first.
Illithid Tentacles 08-08-05, 08:34 PM	Yeah, wands of CLW are awesome no matter what. Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, AND Bards can use them, and so can Rogues provided they pass a UMD check, meaning virtually every party will have at least one character who can use them. A wand of CLW at first caster level costs only 325 GP and 50 XP to create (or 750 GP to buy, but either way they're very affordable). You can get an average of (5.5 * 50 = 275) HP out of one. That's a DAMN good deal for the cost, and it allows you to use your spell slots for other spells, while retaining the ability to spontaneously switch them out for Inflict spells. I strongly recommend you create or pick up two or three, so you'll be set for healing for some time.
Jaime_Wolf 08-08-05, 08:41 PM	Best way I've ever heard it is imagine your grandma (if she's not a nice person, imagine someone else who is good and nice), whenever you do something your grandma would approve of, it's good, if not, probably evil (at least slightly). Saying that evil is not stupid, evil is not shortsighted, evil doesn't mean kill whoever you see, evil doesn't mean <insert stereotype here> is ridiculous. Evil is however you want it to be. Evil CAN be stupid, evil CAN mean killing whoever you see, evil CAN mean any stereotype. All that matters is that it's evil.
friedmad 08-08-05, 09:45 PM	just tell them youre an initiate of Ilmater...ALL his clerics inflict pain when they heal you...
Vacerious 08-09-05, 02:32 AM	Recently, due to the balance card in a Deck of Many Things, my NG Priest of Pelor (lvl6), became NE. The problem is, I am fairly new, and I don't really get what kind of things an evil dooer would do. For example, another character needs to kill the first opponant he sees, and he gains a lvl. Would an *evil* character forget this just to screw him over? Any general RP tips for evil characters would be great. My DM says I will lose a lvl if I don't rp him evily, but I DO want to try and live up to the RP aspect. Also, my DM says I need to try and get at least 1 spell per level prepared with the evil descriptor. I don't think there are any at lvl 1-2 in the PHB. What is a good spell selection flavour wise for an evil cleric? Thanks. here's a simple solution to your rp'ing problem: 1)think of what your NG cleric would do in any situation where your alignment would be questioned. 2)do the exact opposite of what the NG cleric would do. In this case, your cleric would help the fighter, but only if it would benefit your cleric in the long run. otherwise, screw him, it's all about you. if your party fighter has to go down for your path to power to be clear, then your party fighter is going to go down.
Devinstater 08-10-05, 10:02 AM	Well, it looks like this evil thing has come full circle. The resistance each had their own part to play and our party came up through the sewers and stood at the front of the keep posturing to show defiance and gain the trust of the locals. The guardhouse empties to defend the towns front gate, and eventually it left us to fight a Medium sized green Dragon and 2 "Elite" Town Guards. (The two guards are our NPC friends, who fell under control of the magic used to subdue the town. Our job was to incapacitate the guards, and try not to kill anyone.) I successfully held the first guard round 1, and then the second guard round 2, while the party took care of the Dragon. I then ran up to the first guard and whacked him, then followed up with a coup de gras,killing our friend. (Motivation -If they are subdued they might just wake up and come after us again. We had no knowledge of their game plan to get rid of the enchantment.) (The DM was like, you do realize this will kill him, right? And I was like "Yup, rolling damage". The shocked look on my fellow PC's faces was priceless.) Only one PC really caught on, and he completely flipped, and since he had a poison already cast and was right beside me, he demanded I hand over my mace, etc. So I did, another fight ensued inside the keep, we won handidly, and I managed to BS my way out of having my party too angry at me. Except for the Druid. At the Heroes Feast, he managed to speak to a couple high Priests who listened to him, and they spoke to my father without me knowing. My mother invited the party over for dinner, and just as dinner ends, my father comes down in full Pelor robes, and the Arch Bishop and 2 High priest appear at the door from the Order of the Shining Wing (Made up Religion.) Some sort of intervention was held, and after some convincing from my old man I was attoned to my original alignment on NG. The guard was rezzed (semi rich class), I apologized and that seems to be that for now. The big shocker was when the DM announces during the attonement "May your alignment switch to Neutral Good from Neutral Evil" And the party was like HOLY ****! What Da' Hell!? (Well, except for the druid.) It was fun while it lasted, but I'm glad I have my goody-two-shoes Uber-Heal9000 back. Thanks to: Tipping me off to buying a Wand of CLW. That kept my evil alignment hidden during the battles. Really, it was the only thing that kept my alignment hidden. Genius stuff. How to RP evil without being a puppy kicker. I had formulated a grand master plan about overthrowing the Order of the shining Wing and Instating the Church of Pelor in it's place as a long term goal.
ajmastrean 08-10-05, 11:07 AM	@OP Uh... 6th level characters with a DoMT? I'll let that go for now. Second, your actions are the cause, your alignment is the effect. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND! You are not your alignment! Especially not due merely to a magical change. You should merely show up as Evil. Pelor should understand the nature of your alignment change and give you a chance to atone (via quests, the spell atonement [5th lvll --> 9th lvl caster = 450gp], or large donations and fervent prayer). You may not even lose anything (RAW)...Ex-Clerics A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses...You haven't actually violated any code of Pelor, you just used a magic item. Now the section about your alignment and your Deity's alignment is another matter, but it doesn't list any effects. @Everyone Else Are you so blind?! How can you think that just because his alignment was spontaneously changed by a magic item that he is now actually "evil"? I can't believe this babble went on for 26 posts without realizing this... there really is no hope for understanding alignment, is there?
Teydyn 08-10-05, 02:23 PM	I can't believe this babble went on for 26 posts without realizing this... there really is no hope for understanding alignment, is there? You are the expert about alignment? His alignment changed to evil so he IS evil. Its what you are, how you behave. Not just 2 letters on your character sheet (hopefully).
ajmastrean 08-10-05, 02:30 PM	@Teydyn Look, what happened to cause his alignment to change? That's right, an effect from a minor artifact. NOT AN ACCUMULATION OF EVIL ACTIONS! He is not evil in terms of morality. His alignment is now Evil. If he were to continue playing the NG cleric he started with his alignment would eventually make it's way back to NG. What has been suggested by everyone are ways to play an EVIL CHARACTER. Not what to do about an ALIGNMENT that is now Evil.
mhr74 08-10-05, 02:47 PM	Like others said, smart and crafty evil lives a lot longer than impulsive n00b-at-playing-evil evil. Thinking about the motives and reasoning of an evil PC is all-important. It basically boils down to #1 comes first (the PC and maybe a group. who sez evil canoot affiliate and play nice w/ others given the proper context?) Is your evil...(any 1 or combos thereof): Calculating? Restrained Impulsive (battles compulsive inner demons)? Vengeful? Greedy? Closeted? Psychotic? Religious? Misguided? Aloof? Polite and well mannered? Smiley, happy evil? I DM an evil campaign and every PC has their own M.O. and approach to the evil quandry. I talked to the players 1-on-1 and made them figure this stuff out. Not to shortchanges the roleplaying experience, IMO.
ajmastrean 08-10-05, 03:07 PM	I'm going to go through and address the original post in a more concise manner... @Devinstater Do you want to be evil? An alignment change from a DoMT does not require you to PLAY an evil character. If you want to stay NG, take the negative level and seek out an Atonement (5th lvl spell) or do something else in the spirit of atonement (pray, sacrifice at Pelor's temples, do some quest for Pelor/temple, etc.) my NG Priest of Pelor (lvl6), became NE.Wrong, your alignment became NE. I will lose a lvl if I don't rp him evily, but I DO want to try and live up to the RP aspect.Those are the breaks... doesn't mean you have to be NE. There are plenty of ways to remove a negative level - Restoration (4th lvl spell). my DM says I need to try and get at least 1 spell per level prepared with the evil descriptor.This is somewhat extreme. An evil CHARACTER could use a stone shape just as evilly as any [evil] descriptor spell. This is an interesting suggestion if you wanted to be evil, but otherwise unnecessary.
Helmed Horror 08-10-05, 03:15 PM	DM: Okay <name>, you open the chest and to your surprise it is filled entirely with hundreds and hundreds of gold pieces... probably a thousand if u counted all of them.... PC: "What the hell is this???? It's empty guys.... who locks an empty chest?? honestly...." That, is how one plays NE. A liar, a cheat, AND kicks puppies...
Devinstater 08-10-05, 03:23 PM	I think your missing the spirit of the whole thing. My Character is now evil. He now behaves how an evil character would. I could have done it your way, but the negative level is to punish the player (me) for not roleplaying. Flavourwise, it makes the most sense to RP evily, and the actions and subsequent revelation and the other PC's reactions really made it worthwhile. Especially when I explained all the hints they missed. (The painful healing on the Warforged, all the Inflict spells, and the rebuking of the wraith instead of turning.) The looks on their faces as they realized what was happening was just too great. And incase you missed it, I am Attoned and back to NG.
DHP 08-10-05, 03:33 PM	An alignment change from a DoMT does not require you to PLAY an evil character. So there's no consequence for drawing a card that changes your alignment besides from some spells working differently on you???
tharivol266 08-10-05, 04:14 PM	well it does if u roleplay but not if ur a freaking munchkin. the card changes ur alignment and through which its supposed to change ur outlook. its more complicated but this is the only way i can express it: the card makes ur old alignment seem repulsive immediatly so as a character u dont want to be that and as such ur alignment changes but the bad players dont see it as such instead they are like "well that sucks. owell alignment isnt really anything important lets just pretend it didnt happen". its okay if ur char. pretends nothing happens to avoid raising suspision as long as u understand why ur character is being the way he is being
Shashu X 08-10-05, 11:28 PM	To ajmastrean, clearly Devinstater wishes to to play an evil character otherwise he would not have started a thread on how to be evil. Though I agree with you that allignment is more of the results of a character's actions than the motivation for them, this thread is not the place for that deiscussion. On topic: Iwould recomend forming an evil orginization(i.e. the Maffia) with yourself as the head. With minions doing your bidding there is little that you must do on your own. This would help hide yourself better. The longer term your goals the eaiser it is to appear good. :plotting:
ajmastrean 08-11-05, 08:55 AM	@Shashu X None of that is clear, as he has not returned to answer my question asking him that directly. It is clear to me that his DM may not understand how the alignment shift affects the game. It is also clear to me that Devinstater himself is confused as to his options at this point. It seems to me that he was railroaded by an ignorant DM into being evil who then demanded unnecessary changes to his character. Neither of whom realize that a Restoration will cure a negative level and an atonement (or good deeds) will restore his alignment. Period. We DONT know what Devinstater knows. I feel that he is mis-informed if not mis-guided.
Devinstater 08-11-05, 11:31 AM	For the third time, I am attoned, Thank You. And if you read my very first post, it says that I wanted to RP it out as if he had turned evil, and thus asked for advice in how to do it. It ran it's course, I posted what happened, and that I was convinced to attone. I don't consider it railroading either, when the DM simply plays out the card I drew. Either way, I am happy with the outcome, and I had fun, but I am glad too be good again.
Nodles 08-11-05, 04:03 PM	Ajmastrean, you are missing what is the point of playing d&d: having fun. So you might not agree with the challenge the DM imposed to Devinstater. But he accepted it, he planned for it and he succeeded. And it was fun. Besides, it does not make ANY sense trying to explain how alignment or minor artifacts work. They work they way the DM wants. It is up to him weave the world, and if the way he is weaving it is bad, bad for the players. But it worked out really nice in this case. And i dont know what is this restoration you are talking about. The DM was going to REMOVE xp from Devin. Thats not a negative level, that is a penalty for not accepting the challenge.
spoogemonkey 08-11-05, 04:23 PM	forcing you to change alighnments is the worst kind of PC railroading anyway.... I'm glad it's over for you.
ajmastrean 08-11-05, 04:40 PM	First thing's first, I have been posting from work and the boards have been acting up for a few days. Devinstater's post about his actually playing an evil character was not around when I posted my previous post to Shashu X. Now, I am going home and will post my replies to Nodles, Devinstater, and any clarifications that I feel need to be made. Hold on tight.
ajmastrean 08-11-05, 06:09 PM	I am working off the assumption that how your character acts (and inherently, his intentions) affect your alignment -- basically how the RAW states alignment works. forcing you to change alighnments is the worst kind of PC railroading anywayIt was an effect from a minor artifact. you might not agree with the challenge the DM imposed to Devinstater. But he accepted it, he planned for it and he succeeded.I believe that the DM/Devinstater fundamentally misunderstood the effect of an alignment change. (keep reading) The DM was going to REMOVE xp... not a negative level... a penalty...My response (important points are highlighted)Deck of Many Things Balance: The character must change to a radically different alignment. If the character fails to act according to the new alignment, she gains a negative level.The player is under no requirement to actually act evil. This is merely an alignment change from an item. i dont know what is this restoration...Restoration is a 4th level spell.Restoration ...it also dispels negative levels...And quite honestly, a decent ruling could have been that the neg. lvl stays until your alignment is returned to NG, or that you have to dispel it every day, or that once is fine. My Character is now evil. He now behaves how an evil character would.Kind of a stretch for a 6th lvl NG cleric of Pelor to just up and act evil, isn't it?the negative level is to punish the player (me) for not roleplaying. Flavourwise, it makes the most sense to RP evilyThe negative level is a penalty from the use of a minor artifact. Not something your DM imposed arbitrarily. It does not make sense that your character (lvl freakin' 6 NG cleric of PELOR!) would just go and act evil for no reason. Here's my point... you do not have to act your alignment. Your alignment reflects your actions. You would have been penalized (temporarily) via a neg. lvl until you restored your alignment through atonement/good-deeds/prayer/whatever. You and your DM misunderstood the affect of the card and the way alignment works. End of story.
Atragon 08-11-05, 06:41 PM	I disagree. Algignment defines your character's behavior. Admittedly, you get to choose your alignment to begin with, and you are able to change it gradually. However, it should be looked upon as extremely poor roleplaying if you deliberately act against your alignment. With this in mind, if your alignment gets changed, then your character's behavior should also change in accordance with your new alignment and not doing so should be penalized by the DM since you would be either an extremely poor roleplayer, or metagaming.
ajmastrean 08-11-05, 09:12 PM	Algignment[sic] defines your character's behaviorBull.A creature’s general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character you get to choose your alignment to begin with, and you are able to change it graduallyTrue... provided you actually select the alignment that accurately describes your character in the first place (plenty of folks that write CN are actually CE). if your alignment gets changed, then your character's behavior should also change in accordance with your new alignmentWrong again. Your alignment changes in accordance with your actions... actions come first, alignment second. The exception is the MINOR ARTIFACT, which explicitly changes alignment, not MORALS AND ACTIONS.
Atragon 08-12-05, 12:14 AM	Bull. Ok, I'll bite. A creature's general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment. True... provided you actually select the alignment that accurately describes your character in the first place (plenty of folks that write CN are actually CE). Which one would presume you did, remember, Choosing an alignment for your character means stating your intent to play that character a certain way. If your character acts in a way more appropriate to another alignment, the DM may decide that his alignment has changed to match his actions. So by the time you encounter the Deck of Many Things or other items which may change alignment (cursed items, including the Helm of Opposite Alignment) we can assume that your existing alignment accurately represents your character's outlook on life. Wrong again. Your alignment changes in accordance with your actions... actions come first, alignment second. The exception is the MINOR ARTIFACT, which explicitly changes alignment, not MORALS AND ACTIONS. And then states that unless they act in accordance with the new alignment they eat a negative level. Granted, it does not specify they have to play in accordance with the new alignment, unlike the Helm of Opposite Alignment which states that the alteration in alignment is mental as well as moral, and that the individual enjoys his new outlook. But at the same time, since the deck of many things has several curse-like effects, isn't it logical to assume that the effect is similar, and not just a case of 'ok, change a notation on your character sheet'?
ajmastrean 08-12-05, 08:23 AM	@Atragon So by the time you encounter...Yes, hopefully by the time the campaign is well under way, your alignment appropriately reflects your actions. (this is assuming you/DM understand how alignment works). isn't it logical to assume...No it is not. If something is not explicitly allowed/required, then it is not in fact allowed/required.
Atragon 08-12-05, 10:04 AM	No it is not. If something is not explicitly allowed/required, then it is not in fact allowed/required. Granted, however the helm of opposite alignment is the only description of how an alignment change item works. All Balance says is ... the character must change to a radically different alignment. If the character fials to act according to the new alignment, she gains a negative level. We are left with no definition of radically different from that text. But, the entry for the helm of opposite alignment... ... the alignment of the wearer is radically altered to an alignment as different as possible from the former alignment... This would seem to indicate that the balance card has the same effect as the helm since the card gives you no mechanics at all for what defines a 'radically different' alignment, only the fact that you are changed to it, and there is a penalty if you do not act accordingly. The Helm on the other hand describes the mechanics of being changed to a radically different alignment. From this it is reasonable to assume that they are in fact the same effect just brought about by different items.