Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Samusic 07-22-05, 02:37 AM	I got this idea from the thread in which somebody asks for advice on how to play his character evil. I also recently was changed by a deck of many things. However, my DM doesn't really like doing evil campaigns and we are also relatively new so it would be difficult to play an evil character while everybody else is good. So, my chaotic good ranger character became lawful good. My question is, how do I effectively play a lawful character? This may seem silly, but it's a legitimate question. For instance, does the character feel that he must abide by the laws of any town he enters, even if he feels that they are unfair, or that the government is corrupt? Taking a real example, would the character take something useful to him from the home of a recently deceased person (seeing as how that person won't be using it anymore). My character always abided by his own code of conduct and morals. Does this change? Does he abide by rule and regulations that are in conflict with his own morals?
Salla 07-22-05, 02:50 AM	Despite the name, Lawful has little to do with rigidly obeying laws; however, you do understand that structure is important for society to function, and that laws and civilized behavior provide a foundation for all. However, injust or corrupt laws don't bind you; however, you'll be more inclined to work within the system to change them, rather than going outside the law. For example, let's take an old standby, excessive taxation for the sole purpose of filling the king's coffers (he's not even DOING anything with it). The stereotypical Chaotic type in this instance turns into Robin Hood, whereas the Lawful character will try to work with the system as it is; if the king has advisors, he'll try to persuade them to get in the king's ear and change his mind, or find a law that allows for forcing the king to abdicate his throne if he's found unworthy, or what have you. Other aspects of lawful behavior include: 1. Honor. It's rare that you can get away with a bold-faced lie, but the lies of 'literal truth' are still well within your purview ("I have business with the bandit king" is sufficient; you don't HAVE to say that you're there to lay him out). If you actually say, "I give my word of honor", then you're quite stuck. 2. Respect for tradition. If it was good enough for your ancestors, it's good enough for you. Only change things when there's a good reason, as opposed to change for the sake of change. A truly 'extreme' lawful outlook could even be reactionary, trying to turn back the clock to the way things were in the previous generation or beyond ("We didn't have no fancy mithral weapons in my day! We used bronze and we LIKED it!"), but those are rare. There are others specifically called out in the PHB, but I can't check it for details right now 'cause my wife's sleeping in this room and I can't turn the light on. :)
Samusic 07-22-05, 02:59 AM	Thanks. Let's say, though, that there is a law enforcement official that is wrongly bringing people in and giving them jailtime, mistreating them and even sentencing them to death. I see my character as more a results oriented person. Would he try to bring this to somebody else's attention, rather than try to confront him himself? What if nobody would pay attention to what he had to say and just let it continue? Would he then attempt to kill/asissinate him?
Cymraegmorgan 07-22-05, 03:01 AM	Learn Tevye's song from Fiddler on the Roof, "Tradition." For a Lawful character, it is not about the minutiae of the law books, but the traditions of ancestors and culture. And a healthy skepticism of anything "new fangled."
Samusic 07-22-05, 03:15 AM	Traditioooooon, Tradition! ya dat da da dat daaa da Tradition! Traditioooooon, Tradition! ya dat da da dat daaa da Tradition! Who, day and night, must scramble for a living, Feed a wife and children, say his daily prayers? And who has the right, as master of the house, To have the final word at home? The Papaaaaaa, the Papa! ya dat da da dat daaa da Tradition! The Papaaaaaa, the Papa! ya dat da da dat daaa da Tradition! LOL Thanks, that actually helps a little. I'm a musical theatre major. I was in that show my freshman year in college. I was Fyedka. Yeah, major tenor. Anyway, so I could have my character believe strictly in Elven tradition and societal roles? What if he met somebody who didn't meet the standards of his moral code, etc.? What would he, typically, do? I'm still struggling with that. I guess I could read up on what they would do in a typical Elven city. However, what if he is in a different town with rules and laws he didn't agree with? What if he was in an evil town? You know, I was thinking he could maybe become a bloodhound, tracking humans and orcs...
Cymraegmorgan 07-22-05, 03:24 AM	What if he met somebody who didn't meet the standards of his moral code, etc.? What would he, typically, do? I'm still struggling with that. I guess I could read up on what they would do in a typical Elven city. However, what if he is in a different town with rules and laws he didn't agree with? What if he was in an evil town? As Elves are traditionally tolerant, but cliquish, he might just choose to not interact with those who do not measure up to his standards. He will probably avoid towns that are known to be evil, "hotbeds of Dwarvish nonsense and Human failings", etc.
Samusic 07-22-05, 03:38 AM	Would he feel compelled to right the wrongs of an injust system of laws, etc. for the sake of the town's people? Also, there is a half orc barbarian in the party that, until now, he has tolerated pretty well despite hating orcs (favored enemy). Would the emnity toward him increase?
Cymraegmorgan 07-22-05, 03:51 AM	Would he feel compelled to right the wrongs of an injust system of laws, etc. for the sake of the town's people? Also, there is a half orc barbarian in the party that, until now, he has tolerated pretty well despite hating orcs (favored enemy). Would the emnity toward him increase? Since elves are traditionally freedom loving souls, he could easily turn crusader for a whole town of oppressed people. The initial reactions to the Half-Orc would be bad, but if the H-O is a good egg and does nothing directly against your PC, then respect and friendship should begin to emerge, albeit slowly.
Samusic 07-22-05, 03:54 AM	I guess I'm now having trouble seeing the difference between a lawful good elf and a chaotic good elf now. Maybe I've been playing my character lawful good this whole time?
Cymraegmorgan 07-22-05, 04:04 AM	I guess I'm now having trouble seeing the difference between a lawful good elf and a chaotic good elf now. Maybe I've been playing my character lawful good this whole time? LG cares about tradition and doing good. CG cares about personal freedom and doing good. A LG Elf subsumes his natural desire for personal freedom into a desire to see his people's traditional freedoms protected, even if he no longer enjoys those freedoms himself as a "servant of the people." Crazy, no? Crazy, yes.
Valgaav 07-22-05, 04:04 AM	High_Octane put it best in his sig: Lawful=ordered. Daily schedules are a major start, esp. going overboard.
Gedrin 07-22-05, 04:07 AM	Assuming you were a CG ranger, and you're now a LG ranger, just keep going on the same route. It's pretty much the same advice I gave in the "how to be evil" thread. I see LG characters as being restricted by BOTH, the social codes of their culture, and a desire to do the morally right thing. LG characters tend to believe that the best way for groups of people to live together is if they all know what the rules are up front, and they all obey them. As an LG ranger you might decide that your protectorate had certain rules. You'd let folks know what they were, and expect them to obey those rules. After all, the rules exist to make things better for us all. Honor, structure, a common heritage passed down, these things help people to come together and provide understanding of how and why things are done. You were CG, and wanted to keep the woods safe for everyone to use. You still want that, you just decided that it would be a good idea to come up with a Code of the Forest. Everyone in the woods is expected to abide by that code, so the forest is preserved and no one person/group treads on the ability of others to enjoy the forest. Perhaps you were an enforcer of justice in the wilds. You still want to enforce justice in the wilderness, but you now decide that maybe one person shouldn't be judge, jury and executioner all togehter. After all, you have good judgement, but as a rule, it's better for those powers to be divided a bit. You may work to establish some sort of relationship with nearby authorities, relying on them for portions of those responsibilities. Plus, they can provide you with "legitimate" legal authority, which will ease dealings with people from that town. Maybe you were the huntsman to a duke. This is a natural change for such a person. The concept of loyalty to the office takes hold. Maybe you come to see the duke not only as a man, but also as the steward of the land, and thus part of the land. Honoring your bonds to the duke would become intwined with honoring the bonds you have to the land. As for the "what if the laws are bad" delima... your character was once CG. It's clear that this character feels the laws exist to provide for the good of the people. If the law is unjust, it should be changed, within the rules if at all possible. Such a character might feel that nobility/government/the state has a covenant based in Natural or Divine Law, and that if the King betrays that covenant, he has lost the right to impose law. For examples of this line of thought, see the Declaration of Independance. Still, you can expect to have the same kinds of issues that people who are bound by both social convention and moral obligation have.
Samusic 07-22-05, 04:26 AM	So, if I feel that the authority has breached their rights as such, I can, within my alignment, change things by means other than within the system itself?
Vrykolas2k 07-22-05, 01:53 PM	The best examples I can come up with for lawful good come from the Dragonlance nevels; the Knights of Solamnia, in particular. They're pretty much all Lawful Good, but they all have their own personalities. And ways of expressing it, including interpretations of their knightly code.
Gedrin 07-22-05, 03:21 PM	If you adhere strictly to a code that includes universal Rights, and those Rights form your characters "highest law", then I would argue that yes, you could. However, you need to be sure that you're taking up some sort of universal and well defined code. If you're just making up a code on your own, that acomodates your views, you are probably not behaving in a Lawful way. Other people will disagree with that. That said, lawful characters have a commitment to social order. Just because you disagree with a law, that's not a good enough reason to create the harmful chaos that comes with disobeying the laws of a land. Same goes with bad rulers or policies you disagree with. The standard for acting against the current social order is relatively high, particularly in lands that have redress of grievences.
pres_man 07-22-05, 05:01 PM	CG and LG might do much of the same actions, but the reasons are often different. Consider a elf village is having a summer play in the park. All the CG elves go because it is suppose to be a interesting play and quite humorous, they intend to enjoy themselves. The LG elf decides to go because it is a tradition that the elves put on the summer play each year. He has attended it each year and he intends to do so again this year unless some other responsibilty pulls him away. He doesn't really have much interest in the play for entertainment, he is only attending because that is what he feels is expected of him as a "good" elf. Lawful respects society and position, not to the end of all else, but a person who is authority automatical gets a lawful persons respect until they prove they don't deserve it. Chaotics make authority figures prove they deserve respect before they give it. For my games Lawful = conservative and chaotic = liberal, so lawful folks focus on the needs of society over the needs of the individuals, while the chaotics focus on the needs of the individuals over the needs of the society. Lawful means that people are meant to serve society, chaotic means that society is meant to serve people. In my games that is. Talk to your DM about what it means to be lawful and chaotic in his game.
Gedrin 07-23-05, 12:51 AM	I would think that in most cases, Lawful people are willing, even eager, to do things for fun.
BW0222 07-23-05, 01:00 AM	Samusic, The easiest way to play lawful is to ... write down a code of conduct which defines how you act and react to people, laws, society, family, etc. Then... stick to it. Take an organized approach to following it. If you have an item which says "I follow local laws." then whenever you enter a new city/country, take the time to check out local weapon, religious, and magic laws. If you have an item which says "I respect my god." then arrange regular prayer days or rituals which you go through. However, it honestly doesn't matter what the rules are. You could be from a tribal nation in which stealing an enemies horses is an honorable thing. "I always let a fellow tribesfolk enemies know who defeated them." or "I always treat anyone cunning enough to steals something from me with great respect." You could be a thief. "I never sneak into a place alone without an escape route planned." A ranger... "I never leave people alone in the woods who can't find there way out.", etc., etc. If you have to break a rule, due to circumstances, then you roleplay not being happy with it.
Samusic 07-23-05, 01:37 AM	That's the best advice I've heard so far. I suppose I just had trouble with it because I saw my chaotic ranger doing the same things. So, a lawful ranger wouldn't necessarily follow all local laws, though he'd be more inclined to, right? For instance, a chaotic good ranger would say, "I follow all local laws, unless it doesn't benefit me, though I would never do any real misdeed" and a lawful good character would say, "I follow all local laws because it is respectful to, and the right thing to do, unless said law is unjust and is oppressive to the people"? Have I finally got this? lol
pres_man 07-23-05, 02:03 AM	Bingo was his name-o
fawr 07-23-05, 02:25 AM	I like the idea that lawful people like making rules (and then sticking to them). So when I play a lawful character I like to talk to the players before hand about things like "does the party pay for resurections, or is it the dead character" or "how do we split treasure". The alternative is to decide at the time what to do. That means that you aren't wasting time considering things that won't come up, but that when you do consider something people aren't considering it impartially (because if you stand to gain a holy avenger out of a decision then you really aren't inpartial).
BW0222 07-23-05, 03:23 AM	Samusic, >That's the best advice I've heard so far. It works for me. The main thing about being lawful is being consistant, having a workable code, and be willing to make sacrifices to stick to the code. An Apache indian, a mofia boss, and a crusading knight, can all be lawful neutral -- they just have very different codes of conduct. >I suppose I just had trouble with it because I saw my chaotic ranger doing >the same things. With a chaotic person, you just don't write down your believes or follow them doggedly. As long as things get done, there is no need to follow any specific code of conduct. For example, the chaotic ranger might also not like leaving folks alone in the woods, but he isn't going to take personal risks, blow missions, disobey his lord, etc. in order to always do so -- nor is she likely to loose a lot of sleep on it. A lawful ranger might risk jail, loss of pay, or take a lot greater risks. A chaotic one might happily leave his friends to get the message delivered and succeed in the mission. >So, a lawful ranger wouldn't necessarily follow all local laws, though he'd be >more inclined to, right? For instance, a chaotic good ranger would say, "I >follow all local laws, unless it doesn't benefit me, though I would never do >any real misdeed" and a lawful good character would say, "I follow all local >laws because it is respectful to, and the right thing to do, unless said law is >unjust and is oppressive to the people"? It depends upon the code you right down. A lawful ranger might have a code saying "I always follow laws of x kingdom." That doesn't mean that he follows the laws of another kingdom. He could have a code saying "I never follow the laws of another kingdom." That just doesn't mean he becomes a jerk about it, just that he doesn't consider that group/nation worthy of him. Nothing says he can't dislike, have distain, or even hostility to another country, group, church, race, etc. One can treat different groups differently, as long as you are consistant about it. A ranger might have a code saying "I protect women." but not consider orc females 'women'. You might have a code saying "I never lie to the druids council." and "I always lie to loggers not sanctioned by the council." -- sending them to the wrong part of the woods. >Have I finally got this? lol Try writting a code down and imagine stituations which you might be faced with. Try thinking about what you would do if they conflict. Thanks, Brett