Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Da'Newf 09-15-04, 10:53 PM	I've been putting together the character sheet for a 3.5e human ranger (the DM has indicated that the majority of play is in a human city where the citizens are not fond of any other race). I've been wondering what path of feats, skills, etc would make a pure ranger. Having looked over the various areas of these forums, I've come to two initial conclusions - every one has an opinion on the existing rules, and if they don't like those rules, they bend them a bit. The DM has indicated that he wants us to have an overall plan for our characters, should he decide to jump us automatically to a particular level to accellerate things. I like the idea of the original concept of a ranger - that of hunter, tracker and scout. When I've played 2e, I've usually played them with a long bow as primary weapon, long sword as secondary, and daggers and axes as backup/close quarters weapons. That's how I've built my character so far (haven't actually played the character yet). I'm thinking something with a focus on composite longbow, able to handle a longsword and the other weapons, as well as the usual others. The big thing is what order should a ranger be built to accomplish this? Looking forward to hearing your opinions.
Tibs 09-15-04, 11:28 PM	Well, part of it depends on whether or no your DM is jumping you a level. One of the things you'll have to consider is what combat style you want to take at second level-Two Weapon combat, or archery (which will treat you as having either the Point Blank or two-weapon fighting feat, respectively). You seemed to favor the bow, considering you chose the longbow as you primary weapon, so I'd suggest going the archery route. You might also want to consider your skills- taking things like move silent, hide, spot, survival, etc.-even if some of them aren't class skills. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you, other than to keep your ideal in mind when creating your character. Hope it helps.
Sildatorak 09-15-04, 11:39 PM	Since it is in a city, you might want to ask your DM about the Urban Ranger variant from Masters of the Wild. You can still make a very effective city ranger using the standard set of rules, though. Since it is a human city, I would recommend that your 1st favored enemy be humans. Unlike 2e (and 3.0 to some extent) the favored enemy is no longer a "hated" enemy. It is just the type of foe that you know how to fight the most effectively. If you want to have longbow be your primary weapon, then you should definitely go with the archery path. You might also want to go ahead an invest in Point Blank Shot since a lot of fighting tends to happen within 30' of you (archery style gives Rapid Shot, not PBS). Weapon Focus with longbow is also an excellent idea. If you have access to Complete Warrior you might want to think about taking the Ranged Sunder or Ranged Disarm feats to provide another option or two with ranged combat. To boost your tracking you may want to take Skill Focus (Survival) or Self-Sufficient. I'd say that to have Longsword as your melee weapon you should definitely have a buckler. You won't get any AC bonus when you're using the longbow (unless you have improved buckler defense from CW), but you'll have it strapped on already in case the enemy gets too close. Weapon Focus (Longsword) will help you a little bit to hit if the enemy gets in to melee, but you can probably find better things to spend your feats on. Don't worry about any feats or anything for the dagger, just keep one on your belt just in case you get grappled. Instead of hand-axe, you might want to consider throwing axes. They can be used in melee but cause a little less damage. I think the advantage of a ranged option outweighs that, though. As for order, if you are going to take any feats to boost your tracking you should do it at first level. The early boost will let him track effectively even in fairly tough conditions at level 1. I would say Skill Focus (survival) and Weapon Focus (longbow) should probably be 1st level feats, and after that it is up to you to decide.
Twisted Puppy 09-16-04, 09:08 AM	I say go with the archery path for the ranger, and be sure to make your Intelligence fairly high- with the concept you have, skill points are your friends :D . Assuming a 12 Intelligence, at first level you can max out Survival, Move Silently, Hide, Spot, Handle Animal, Knowledge: Nature, Listen, and one other skill you think may be handy (Craft : Bowyer is not a bad choice, it's great to be able to craft your own Masterwork bow.) For feats, I agree with Sildatorak on the Skill Focus: Survival, though I'd recommend Weapon Focus with the bow of your choice. (Not saying he's wrong, it's just a matter of preference.) Another feat to consider, though some people consider it a little weak, is the Stealthy feat, to get bonuses to your Hide and Move Silently skills.
amethal 09-17-04, 10:58 AM	As you can see, there is no "correct" way to do this. I'd go for point blank shot and precise shot as your first level feats, giving you +1 to hit and damage against foes within 30 feet and the ability to fire into melee at no penalty (normally -4 to hit). For my skills I'd go for spot, listen, search, knowledge (nature), knowledge (dungeoneering), survival, hide and (if you have an Intelligence bonus) move silently. At 2nd level, your tracking will benefit from the skill synergy. 5 ranks in search will give you +2 on survival checks to find tracks, 5 ranks in knowledge nature will give you +2 on survival checks in natural surroundings, and 5 ranks in knowledge dungeoneering will give you +2 on survival checks in dungeons. (NB 5 ranks in survival will also give you +2 on knowledge nature checks.) Start off with a longbow, arrows, chain shirt, buckler, longsword and dagger - if you can afford them! If you have to economise, lose the buckler, and replace the longsword with a (free) quarterstaff. Obviously, at second level you chould take the archery combat style to get the free rapid shot feat when wearing light armour. To improve your tracking still further, you might consider taking a level in druid. Druids get +2 to survival checks and knowledge nature checks. However, having levels in druid makes wearing metal armour problematical - you lose your spellcasting abilities, which might not be such a big deal for you in game terms, but from a roleplaying point of view, what sort of druid deliberately ignores the metal armour restriction?
Kilsek of Sheverash 09-17-04, 01:29 PM	<<I like the idea of the original concept of a ranger - that of hunter, tracker and scout. When I've played 2e, I've usually played them with a long bow as primary weapon, long sword as secondary, and daggers and axes as backup/close quarters weapons. That's how I've built my character so far (haven't actually played the character yet).>> Okay, well it sounds like going the ranged weapon ranger path makes sense at 2nd level, since you'd like the long bow as your #1 option. You'll gain free feats essentially from there and really become good at it. If you want to have longsword as a legit #2 option, then think only about spending a few feats on the longsword, just enough to be pretty good at it - say any or all of: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave. Or if you're human, consider the bastard sword using your bonus human feat. Doesn't sound like you want to go two-weapon fighting with him, so the above two ideas are a good fit for the concept. I'm not sure everyone understands how effective a ranged combat focused ranger who fights one handed in melee can be - it adds a dash of defense and a bit more effectivity in successfully striking your opponent to the ranger that the dual-wielder just doesn't have. I also want to recommend the Peerless Archer PrC from the Forgotten Realms Silver Marches* sourcebook. It's good for ideas at the very least, and excellent for fighters or rangers who really want to become masters of the bow. Ignore cover, ranged sneak attack... and more. Very cool. *edit: originally and incorrectly wrote Savage North (thx ksbs for the catch!)
Da'Newf 09-17-04, 02:04 PM	Sounds like I was on the right track, and there were definitely some good ideas there for further enhancements that I hadn't thought of. Kilsek of Sheverash - I hadn't thought of spending a couple of feats to improve the longsword skills. Makes perfect sense though, especially since you can't always use a longbow in close quarters. The Urban Ranger idea might be something to consider - will have to discuss it with the DM to see what his plans are for the campaign - don't know if it is primarily in the city or . One of the guys in the group did make a comment on it, but there was no real discussion. Not familiar with the Urban Ranger concept - haven't got the Masters of the Wild book. Had read some reviews on it that made me wonder if the book was worth getting or not as it seemed to be mostly for druids. That and the fact that it was 3.0 edition and not 3.5, so wasn't sure how things applied in that regards. Thanks for the opinions and advice.
ksbsnowowl 09-17-04, 02:40 PM	I also want to recommend the Peerless Archer PrC from the Forgotten Realms Savage North sourcebook.Peerless Archer is an excellent PrC; however, it is from Silver Marches, not this Savage North you speak of.
Ogmug 09-17-04, 02:50 PM	You might also want to slip in some levels of rogue in there, for the hid, search, etc. That part fits the scout portion of your build.
Kilsek of Sheverash 09-17-04, 03:49 PM	Kilsek of Sheverash - I hadn't thought of spending a couple of feats to improve the longsword skills. Makes perfect sense though, especially since you can't always use a longbow in close quarters. Exactly, and if you think about it, most encounters, especially early on, gravitate quickly towards melee anyway. At least one other person in your party is guaranteed to need to close to melee distance the enemy to be effective, most likely, putting you at a disadvantage without the proper ranged feats. And being a second line warrior, it's important to be able to close in for melee, take and dish out a few hits when necessary. Most parties don't have heaps of warriors in them, so it's good for the group to be flexible if you want to be. So early on, it can be practical to be getting that extra +1 to hit with your longsword or bastard sword, or power attacking or cleaving with it. Not to mention actually having a shield as a ranger to improve your defenses. It may hurt slightly in the Armor Check penalty category, but that's only if you always have it out - which you probably won't. When scouting, you stow it, unless you're concerned about the move action cost in getting it back out. And when you're "done firing," or simply want to melee, you can always draw your shield and close for melee combat if necessary. In a round you could completely switch from range to melee quickly: drop your bow as a free action, draw your sword as part of a normal move action (bc you have a +1 BAB), and draw your shield as the other move action to finish off your round, now ready for melee, or at least to help take a hit for a badly wounded ally. The hardest part is deciding exactly how much and when to attack from a range, and how often to get in melee. To be a good scout, your #1 priority is stealth, but that's easily achieved with the 3.5 ranger. It's after the fight breaks out on the unsuspecting enemy that you sometimes have tough choices which involve considering the party makeup, your oppoents, and the surrounding terrain.
Sildatorak 09-17-04, 04:46 PM	Not familiar with the Urban Ranger concept - haven't got the Masters of the Wild book. They basically have a few options like ditching animal empathy (it was a skill in 3.0) to get gather information as a class skill…if you don't have masters of the wild don't get it merely for the ranger variant.
Talanall 09-18-04, 07:56 PM	If I were in your shoes, I'd grab Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as my level 1 feats, as amethal has already suggested. This is especially a good idea if there's already a warrior-type in the party who is more specifically built for melee combat, since Precise Shot makes you a lot better at staying in the back ranks of the party and tagging things with arrows while someone else is in melee with them. To cover your options for those situations when it's either better or unavoidable that you should be in melee combat yourself, I see two basic options at your disposal. The first is that you use a two-handed weapon -- greatsword, greataxe, halberd, falchion, or whatever. If you have a high Str score (which is a good idea anyway, since it'll let you use a Mighty Composite Longbow, and apply your Str bonus to damage on ranged attacks), a two-handed weapon is a good choice because you dish out extra damage that way. Later on, you can grab Power Attack, and enjoy even more extra damage -- with a two-handed weapon, Power Attack will let you drop your attack bonus by 1, and add 2 to your damage roll if you hit. It's very nice. The other option for melee, as I see it, is to use a one-handed weapon and a buckler. The reason why I suggest a buckler rather than a shield is that a buckler can be worn even while you're using a bow. It's one less thing you have to remember to draw when you switch from ranged mode to melee combat. You'll get a little extra AC this way, which is good, and at higher levels you can get a magical buckler, which is even better. Coupled with a nice battleaxe or longsword, this makes you a credible threat in melee combat, right out of the box. What I would not do, however, is try to break up my feats to cover both melee and ranged combat in any really comprehensive way. Pick one or the other, and specialize in it. Ranged combat is really the winner here, for a number of reasons -- two-weapon fighting is your other option, and it's really an inferior choice at higher levels because you end up having to pay for two weapons rather than one. For the price of a pair of +1 weapons to be used for two-weapon fighting, you can follow the archery feat path, and have a magical bow, and then have a magical longsword or greatsword to go with it if you somehow end up in melee. That's a pretty serious economic benefit, and as you get higher in level and start to want more and more powerful (and expensive) weapons, it gets to be a really big benefit, indeed -- observe: With a TWF ranger, you need: +1 weapon (one-handed) [(1d8+1+Str) damage] +1 weapon (light) [(1d6+1+1/2Str) damage] masterwork ranged weapon [(1d8+Str) damage] +1 light armor Total cost: About 6050 gp. For this, you get: AC: about 17 Atk: +6/+6, in melee Damage (if you hit with both attacks) about equal to the damage inflicted by a single swing of a two-handed weapon. With an archery ranger, you need: +1 bow [(1d8+1+Str) damage] +1 weapon (one-handed) [(1d8+1+Str) damage] +1 light armor masterwork buckler Total Cost: 5900 You get: AC: about 18 Atk: +6/+6, but ranged Damage (if you hit with both attacks) greater than that inflicted by a single swing of a two-handed weapon. So basically, you get a higher AC, you get as many attacks, and you will often get to make a full attack without having someone smack you with one in return. All other things being equal, you win. Note that I used an imaginary 5th-level character for this comparison. Assume that Str, Dex, and Con were all at 14, for the sake of argument. And we'll assume that the TWF'er had the TWF feat, along with Power Attack and Cleave. The archer has Rapid Shot, along with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Basically, archery gets you as many attacks as TWF, but you don't get slapped around as much, and your AC is higher. And it costs you a lot less in terms of magical gear. The rest of your desired abilities can be amply taken care of with the Survival, Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot skills, and with the ranger's other class features. If you're wanting to build a hunter/tracker/scout, you're best served by specializing in archery, giving melee stuff a lick and a promise, and letting the class's main features do what they do best.
Twisted Puppy 09-20-04, 06:24 PM	Another PrC to look at from Masters of the Wild is the Deepwood Sniper. At 1st level every arrow you fire is Keen, and at 2nd level your critical multiplier goes to x4. You only get 4 skill points per level, but the skills match nicely with your ranger class. At 7th level (or 8th, books aren't here), the critical multiplier goes to x5 - making the class extremely vicious. There are other goodies in between those levels: safe poison use, reduced penalty for cover, and aimed shot, just to name a few. While some people will say because the Deepwood Sniper was not published in the Complete Warrior, it is no longer allowed, that is not true. At no point in CW is that statement made. Like all PrCs, however, its use is at the discretion of your DM.
krichaiushii 09-20-04, 08:44 PM	I've read in other threads that the best way to go about being a ranger is to avoid that class, and instead use multiclassing of rogue, fighter, and druid or perhaps rogue, barbarian, and druid. Both methods provide for stealth, outdoorsy-type skills (moreso with barbarian), spells, and fighting. Track can be used with the Search skill as well as the Survival skill. The archery track can be easily pursued with levels of fighter. This build might be a better choice, for the rogue's urban skills and skill points. Just a thought.
amethal 09-21-04, 08:31 AM	Track can be used with the Search skill as well as the Survival skill. The survival skill can also be used for, well, survival. Having a load of ranks in search is not going to be very useful when you are trying to survive in the wilderness.
Twisted Puppy 09-21-04, 12:09 PM	I've read in other threads that the best way to go about being a ranger is to avoid that class, and instead use multiclassing of rogue, fighter, and druid or perhaps rogue, barbarian, and druid. Both methods provide for stealth, outdoorsy-type skills (moreso with barbarian), spells, and fighting. Track can be used with the Search skill as well as the Survival skill. The archery track can be easily pursued with levels of fighter. This build might be a better choice, for the rogue's urban skills and skill points. Just a thought. Building a "Ranger" with the multiclass method described above will result in the character suffering from the usual multiclass weaknesses - "Jack of all trades, Master of none." The rogue/fighter combo will actually have fewer skill points than a straight ranger (assuming equal levels in fighter and rogue), have a poorer base attack bonus, and be completely without spells or an animal companion. The rogue/barbarian/druid combo (again assuming equal levels) also has a worse attack bonus, only slightly superior hit points, and fewer skill points. Nor can they wear any metal armor, or have a metal weapon if they want to cast their druid spells. What you said may have been true in 3.0, but the 3.5 changes make the Ranger much more playable.
Da'Newf 09-21-04, 11:26 PM	Well, played the character for a bit last Sunday night. Definitely going the archery route (just got to get my dice rolling going a bit better). DM jumped all of us from first to 3rd level, as part of the overall campaign. Right now, I've got my ranger set up with composite longbow (no strength bonus yet - too expensive starting off). Stats: Str 15, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 10 I've put the majority of my ranks into tracking/stealth related skills, with a couple of minor skills added. Took Combat Style Archery, so got the Rapid Shot as a result. Aside from the standard Ranger feats, I've gone with the following: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot. For the extra feat though, not entirely sure what to take. At 4th level, that's when the option of an animal companion comes along, so was thinking Animal Affinity (and was thinking a wolf to train for hunting/tracking once I get to 4th level). Other options, such as to improve saving throws, and such, look like good ideas too - really tought to decide. Guess this is where I really need to sit down and plan the direction that I want the character to go. Melee combat isn't quite so serious to consider, since there's two fighters, a rogue, my ranger and a cleric. My role looks like it will be as a tracker/hunter outside the city, which the DM was thankful for as the rest of the characters had skills suiting them mainly for in town purposes.
Talanall 09-30-04, 02:04 PM	Stats: Str 15, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 10 I've put the majority of my ranks into tracking/stealth related skills, with a couple of minor skills added. Took Combat Style Archery, so got the Rapid Shot as a result. Aside from the standard Ranger feats, I've gone with the following: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot. For the extra feat though, not entirely sure what to take. At 4th level, that's when the option of an animal companion comes along, so was thinking Animal Affinity (and was thinking a wolf to train for hunting/tracking once I get to 4th level). Other options, such as to improve saving throws, and such, look like good ideas too - really tought to decide. Guess this is where I really need to sit down and plan the direction that I want the character to go. Melee combat isn't quite so serious to consider, since there's two fighters, a rogue, my ranger and a cleric. My role looks like it will be as a tracker/hunter outside the city, which the DM was thankful for as the rest of the characters had skills suiting them mainly for in town purposes. Looks like a good setup for the character, overall. You've placed your ability scores very sensibly, and your feats are exactly what I'd have picked. A couple points you might want to think about, regarding that extra feat that you're still undecided about: 1. You don't actually need Handle Animal to handle your animal companion. One of the features of the animal companion is that they know a selection of tricks "out of the box" and can be made to perform them without need for a skill check. If you plan to be doing a lot of riding or animal training, then Handle Animal is a good skill to have, as is Ride, and Animal Affinity is worth taking. But most of the uses of Handle Animal that you would have recourse to as a player are covered by the animal companion's features, and by Wild Empathy. 2. There's a really nice feat in Complete Warrior called Improved Toughness. You already meet the prerequisites, and it'll give you extra hit points equal to your HD. Nice, since rangers have a d8 hit die in 3.5. It's especially nice if your DM decides to give your character a hard time by contriving some means of getting you into melee combat when you're not ready for it. 3. Related to #2, if your DM decides to spring a surprise on you and land your character in melee, Quick Draw can mean the difference between life and death. Not to mention that with Quick Draw, you can use thrown weapons more easily, increasing your versatility in case of your bow getting sundered, stolen, lost, or confiscated. Since your DM is, by your own description, fond of doing things like adding levels to the party for plot reasons, the possibility that you might end up in prison or something and have to fight your way out with whatever's on hand is worth consideration.