Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drag0nUL 02-19-07, 03:28 AM	I know this question seems kind of odd, but this is what I need at the moment. I consider myself a pretty good player(in therms of building powerful characters) but not nearly as good as the true optimizers(like the people lurking around the CO boards). However, one of the 2 campaigns I play in has recently turned into a one-man show for my characters, and I don't want this to continue. The party consists of: hound archon paladin 6(without racial HD, reincarnated from aasimar via house rule), half-fiend fighter 6 (TWF with bastard swords), cleric 3/paladin 2/bone knight 5(I gave this idea to the player since he wanted an undead connected PrC)., half orc bard 8(base elf, but reincarnated several times), and minotaur barbarian 1(my creation since the player is new to the game). At first (from level 1 to level 9) I played an elf druid, until two sessions ago. At that point the latent in-character conflict between me and the party rogue(the bone knight's previous character) regarding the issue of stealing from the NPC's we save broke out. So i killed him without taking a single point of damage. At this point the DM decides I have become evil so the paladin charges me( he roleplays his 6 int in a great way 'you evil. me crush you'). He manages to land ! hit before he gets pinned and tied up and my driud explain his situation to him. So I basically defeated 2 8th level characters using only wild shape(no spells or animal companion were used in this fight) with a driud I made no effort to optimize. Therefore I decide my druid is too strong for this aprty and overshadows them. I think a bit about building a less powerful character and I come up with the idea of a shadowdancer(a fun class but not that great IMO since it doesn't offer any abilities that can't be got from other sources in an equivalent or better form). Well, the problem is that this character ended up being even more powerful than the druid( he is a monk 2/rogue 5/shadowdancer 3 and has the highest AC and saves in the party and is almost on par with the barbarian regarding damage and hitpoints). So I have to ask: how to build a character that is fun for me to play, but does not make the other players fell utterly useless?
draco1119 02-19-07, 03:43 AM	Dwarf Scout or Rogue/Favored Soul or Cleric. You still get the healing and special abilities of the Rogue/Scout levels, but if you don't want an XP penalty, you have to keep them on par with each other. I'm playing one right now, and at low levels, I was one of the better front-liners, but when we got into the teens, my role had to change. I am now pretty much just a buff-monkey.
johnkretzer 02-19-07, 04:02 AM	Play a Healer...
Comus 02-19-07, 10:25 AM	Let me show you something. Hound archon paladin 6: LA makes everything worse, and Paladin is no exception. Half-fiend fighter 6: Fighter is one of the weakest classes in the game. Losing four HD, two feats, and some BAB doesn't help it any. Cleric 3/Paladin 2/Bone Knight 5: Now, I can't say I'm familiar with Bone Knight, but I know he's already lost at least two caster levels. The most important rule of optimization is to never give up caster levels. Half-Orc Bard 8: Two levels behind and the worst race for the class. Super. Minotaur Barbarian 1: Again, sucking up that LA. Meanwhile, you've been playing a Druid. The most powerful base class in the game. Of course you were able to defeat two party members by yourself! Your Animal Companion is stronger than the Fighter! And now you've got a Monk/Rogue/Shadowdancer. And he's still the best character in the party. This is because all your fighters have taken races with level adjustment, your cleric lost caster levels, and the Bard is, well, having a very bad couple of weeks (I think dying and coming back as a half-orc counts as a bad time). But, you want a suggestion. Fine. Play a Kobold. Design it specifically to be hard to kill. That should be the only development goal. Crusaders (from Tome of Battle) are good at that, and Clerics work if they're not available. Carry a tower shield, too. Be the ultimate, though tiny, meatshield. Don't worry about doing damage. Just be so tough you can take multiple full attacks from dragons.
Illithid_Tentacles 02-19-07, 10:32 AM	Play a fighter.
Norad3 02-19-07, 10:57 AM	It might not be a good idea to optimize a hard to kill character. I did that once, he became my favorite character, but my DM didn't like him because he would have to increase the charllange rating dramatically to kill him even though my character couldn't do more than 8 damage a round at 10th lvl. It just ****** him off that he was so hard to kill. I would suggest going with a cleric or wizard buffer, so that you can increase the abilities of your companions and that way contribute significantly to the group without taking the spotlight.
ShadowDragon8685 02-19-07, 11:00 AM	Engineer a TPK and then give your friends advice on how to build characters that, you know, are worth a darn?
elondir 02-19-07, 11:07 AM	It might not be a good idea to optimize a hard to kill character. I did that once, he became my favorite character, but my DM didn't like him because he would have to increase the charllange rating dramatically to kill him even though my character couldn't do more than 8 damage a round at 10th lvl. It just ****** him off that he was so hard to kill. I would suggest going with a cleric or wizard buffer, so that you can increase the abilities of your companions and that way contribute significantly to the group without taking the spotlight. LOL! :rofl: Why did he get so upset he couldn't kill you? I thought DM's were supposed to fudge rolls and stuff to let characters live!
Rillek_Denar 02-19-07, 11:12 AM	Play as an adept.
Krusk 02-19-07, 11:29 AM	everyone else in the game seems to be playing a character with lots of hitdie and LA. try doing it as well. That should help tone down your character. Another suggestion would be to stick to one noncasting class and one prestige. Instead of monk2 rogue 5 go for rogue 7. OR multiclass a full casting class with any class. Try cool combos youd like to see regardless of power instead of things that sound strong. Half ogre ninja? things like that.
ravenshrike 02-19-07, 12:49 PM	A pixie two weapon barbarian. You'll be doing about 1, maybe 2 damage + weapon enhancements each hit.
darkneolink 02-19-07, 12:49 PM	well the easiest way to make a underpowered (and practically useless) character is... dread necromancer (heroes of horror) with Exalted feats (book of Exalted deeds) play a Noble play a NPC class
Elsydeon 02-19-07, 01:01 PM	The LA is doing it... and likely other bad choices on their part. Play a LA race as well. Play a crowd control wizard. Refuse to take damage spells. Leave the grunt work to your lessers. They'll love you.
snakeman830 02-19-07, 05:07 PM	I'll agree to the LA argument. Choose a race with some LA (half dragon is a good choice, the winged template from Savage Species is one that won't effect the game much at your levels and will tone you match the other's in the party) and then pick your classes. I can almost gaurentee that your relative power levels will even out. or, you can just choose to be a Karsite WIzard if you truly want to underpower your character.
tiercel 02-19-07, 09:58 PM	I'll agree with the consensus here that it sounds like a lot of what is pulling down the other PCs is LA. If you choose a character with similar LA you'll more likely be more in line with their power levels. PIck some wacky race you've always thought was kind of cool but could never justify because of the horrible LA penalties and have fun.... ...and, on the flipside, tell your fellow players about where you think the disparity is coming from *too*. There's nothing wrong with playing a lower-powered game if that's what everyone wants, but you should let them know what you think is doing it (not you trying to "munchkin" your way to dominance). If they are feeling frustrated with their characters' power, they can address the issue then -- but if it is just a matter of relative power, and everyone is cool with the existing game, then just pick something that fits the group better by using LA. (Also make sure that the DM understands that with everyone LA, he will have to be a little careful about assigning challenges since your average party ECL is probably a bit misleading compared to your actual power level, depending on the wealth he's making available etc.)
Serrin 02-20-07, 02:57 AM	Play a ghost. It'll be awesomely bad. Yes, the +5 MM version, not the Ghostwalk one.
Drag0nUL 02-20-07, 04:47 AM	I fully agree with the LA issue(I never play higher than +2 LA unless very special circumstances). However, somewhat to my surprise, the two high LA characters (minotaur and hound archon), while not nearly to the level of a straight paladin/barbarian are among the strongest in the party. The paladin is a decent tank(not too many hp but hard to hit), having 33-34 AC while wielding a falchion(no shield) and the minotaur is a pretty good damage dealer(power attack, leap attack, shock trooper, he can do well over 100 damage a round). The main problem are the bard and the other player. The bard is hopeless(he has a weak character and wants to stick with it) but the other may still be saved. Until now he tried playing poorly optimized rogues, most of them geared specifically toward killing my druid(at least that's what he thought) but now I've helped him build the bone knight which is pretty decent( the combination gives him -3 caster levels in exchange for adding Cha bonus to his saves and a lot of pretty cool undead-like immunities). I take this opportunity to thank you for your suggestions, however I don't think that playing a higher LA race is a very good idea in this situation. So far I have had only two high LA characters:A half-dragon fighter(Improved trip using two whip-daggers and a lot of draconic feats) and a centaur charger(fighter/cavalier, my DM ruled that being a centaur counts as being mounted) and both were above the power level I'm trying to achieve. What I am currently thinking to play is a kobolod paladin/platinum knight. Very hard to kill (2*cha added to the saves, lots of natural armor bonuses, full 10d10 hp) but lousy damage. I think this should stop me from overshadowing anyone. Another idea would be taking the LA and racial HD over the top, like a ghaele eladrin, succubus or vampire
Sareld 02-20-07, 07:01 AM	A) Play a stalwart sorceror from Complete Mage, and make sure to get as many divination spells you can from first to nineth level... you will now suck horribly in battle, and be forced to let the other characters fight for you. Problem solved. B) Accept the fact that the rest of the party sucks, and realize that you dont have to suck along with them. Hell, enjoy that you are immortal to challenges that is fair for your party to face. Just be sure to always have an escape plan ready for when the party faces a challenge that is so much above them that you will effectively be fighting it alone... like a dragon or 12 mages with 3.0 haste and split ray disentegrate spells (teleport, I love you!). Welcome to my world... my last character survived no less than 5 (almost) total party kills in his 6 levels of life, and he was a bard.
Grogmir 02-20-07, 08:53 AM	I say play a dragon shaman. You abilities are just starting to wane, but you'll be an excellent addition to a melee heavy party, +2 to everybodies hits will soon win you friends then add in the automatic healing that will release some pressure on the cleric. Grogmir
s4ndm4n 02-20-07, 11:21 AM	Ha! make an ultra-low-CHA dwarven defender that is always drunk and pulls pranks and every1 hates him, and u'll still have the toughest most potent fighter in the group.That is, if u dont mind being low on CHA and profile (well I guess u already dont).