Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 02-20-07, 01:44 AM	I'm in an argument with someone who thinks that Orb of Fire and its siblings are overpowered spells. How can I convince him that this is not the case? There are plenty of spells better suited to kill things at high levels, especially spells that don'trely on damage, but he doesn't seem to get that.
HomebrewedMonster 02-20-07, 02:06 AM	Balance to orb spells, ranged touch attack. At 7th level a wizard/sorcerer has a +3 BAB and in a 28 points buy maybe a dexterity of 14. So at 7th level you have a +5 to hit, all in all balanced.
Leress 02-20-07, 02:39 AM	Use the spells in this thread http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=815
StoneStokes 02-20-07, 02:41 AM	I'm in an argument with someone who thinks that Orb of Fire and its siblings are overpowered spells. How can I convince him that this is not the case? There are plenty of spells better suited to kill things at high levels, especially spells that don'trely on damage, but he doesn't seem to get that. Challenge him in a spell-caster dual. Use a standard caster from the DMG of whatever class and level he wants, under level 9. Both of you use the same caster stats, equipment, etc. Both start with maximum hp so the dual lasts a while. Each round, both casters cast a single spell, no Concentration required. Restrict yourselves to first level spells. Let him use lesser orb of fire, you use magic missile. To compare the 4th-level spells, do the same thing. Take empowered scorching ray (4d6 x 150% per ray) if he chooses 7th-level or 11th-level. Take maximized magic missile if he chooses 9th-level (25 points autohit each round; while he will average more damage on successful hits, it will require a touch attack, any Dex bonus he gets to his attack roll is mitigated by the fact that you get the same Dex bonus to AC). Note that this will only compare spells designed to deal damage. This is the best way to convince someone that a damage-dealing spell is of the appropriate level.
Serrin 02-20-07, 02:43 AM	Orb spells, in a balanced spell system, would be overpowered, because they ignore SR and that's virtually unheard of. On the other hand, with a billion and nine ways to do more damage to an area, or just destroy a group of enemies with save-or-suck spells, orbs are small time. Perhaps it'd be easier to tell us why your friend thinks that orbs are overpowered. Is it because of the no save? Lots of spells don't give saves, or hose you even on a successful save. Is it because it ignores SR? Is it because most things have low touch ACs? Give us somewhere to start. I mean, clearly we agree with you, but we don't know where your friend is coming from at all.
j_gunder 02-20-07, 04:23 AM	You've hit on a lot of reasons why I, as a DM, think orbs are overpowered. No save, especially for a ranged touch spell, I can handle...if the energy damage were restricted to common enough ones--fire, cold, electricity, acid. Sonic orb, though...virtually nothing has sonic resistance, making it extrememly useful...and one of the best sonic-damage dealers available. No resistance, no save, no SR...it's too much, even mitigated by the ranged touch roll (even with a mage's miserable BAB, ranged touch ACs are very low). Wizards have enough toys at their disposal...let them stick to empowered scorching rays, or let them role-play out spell research in-game to develop a clone of sonic orb. You can bet your bottom it'll have SR, though...at least in my campaigns.
EyeontheMountain 02-20-07, 06:20 AM	OP, sorry cannot help you. Orbs get around the most problematic defense for any mage: SR. Taht makes them overpowered. Same as a fighter who could touch attack reliably on every attack every round. That would be overpowered as it negates his biggest problem: AC.
Serrin 02-20-07, 09:19 AM	Look guys, I know bypassing SR is pretty hardcore, and really, I would never have designed the spells that way myself, if I was being paid to make D&D. That having been said, do you guys play with animate dead? Polymorph? Shapechange? Venomfire? Solid fog? Forcecage? The orb spells are really nothing compared to half the other stuff you can do with your spell slots.
Kresalak 02-20-07, 09:39 AM	Orbs suck ass. Dealing a piddling amount of damage is nearly the same as not doing anything at all. (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=815)
Renvale999 02-20-07, 10:01 AM	You've hit on a lot of reasons why I, as a DM, think orbs are overpowered. No save, especially for a ranged touch spell, I can handle...if the energy damage were restricted to common enough ones--fire, cold, electricity, acid. Sonic orb, though...virtually nothing has sonic resistance, making it extrememly useful...and one of the best sonic-damage dealers available. No resistance, no save, no SR...it's too much, even mitigated by the ranged touch roll (even with a mage's miserable BAB, ranged touch ACs are very low). Wizards have enough toys at their disposal...let them stick to empowered scorching rays, or let them role-play out spell research in-game to develop a clone of sonic orb. You can bet your bottom it'll have SR, though...at least in my campaigns. Agreed, I had a Warmage with these spells, he literally relied on them and killed everything I put them up against. He took Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot in order to use them in Melee. The campaign got killed and I banned the spells hence forth.
Novabomb 02-20-07, 10:32 AM	Im not going to say the spell isn't stupid....honestly those orbs of natural force make lovely lawn ornaments....but over powered, not so much. You see the problem is that its a direct damage spell. DD inherently sucks (minus disintegrate). For a DD spell its pretty good, but over all i can't say it's over-powered. I will however say its stupid, natural orb of any element?
wonlee76 02-20-07, 10:55 AM	Look guys, I know bypassing SR is pretty hardcore, and really, I would never have designed the spells that way myself, if I was being paid to make D&D. That having been said, do you guys play with animate dead? Polymorph? Shapechange? Venomfire? Solid fog? Forcecage? The orb spells are really nothing compared to half the other stuff you can do with your spell slots. Your comparisons hold little merit only because the spells you are citing either have their own drawbacks (expensive material components) or saves associated with them. Needless to say, comparing orb spells to a 9th level spell like Gate or Shapechange is just plain silly. Prior to the orb spells, SR: No spells usually did not have a huge impact right off the bat. The damage was meted out slowly (acid arrow, acid fog, incendiary fog), there were still some saves involved (cloud kill), time constraints (planar binding), or had a decent cost associated with it (Gate and Forcecage). Looking at 4th level "No: SR" spells from the PHB the choices are: Animate Dead (pricey material component required) Black Tentacles (grapple check and damage dealt over time) Hallucinatory Terrain: Will Save permitted Polymorph: Willing target only. Solid Fog: No damage but slows down enemies movement Summon Monster IV: Bring in one ally or several lesser allies to help out. Their damage is contingent on them hitting. So yes, bypassing SR to deal out direct damage is a pretty big deal even with the range touch attack required for the orb spells (which gives the added benefit of possible critical hits). The main problem I have about orb spells is the defense it bypasses (SR) is something monsters have easier access to than PCs. If a PC wants SR, they need to get it through some class feature (Monk), choose a monster that has SR and pay the price of that monster (ECL or LA or whatever) or use magic to get it in some form. Magic being the easiest also is a temporary solution. In other words, it favors the PCs a lot more than the bad guys who may use the orb spells against the PCs. This is similar to the problems with spells like Power Word Pain from Races of Dragon. A spell that when used by the PCs against bad guys, isn't that big of a problem. But when the bad guys uses it on the PCs, its a near guaranteed death spell for low level PCs. Me, I put the tag "SR:Yes" on all orb spells and leave them alone after that. Nice and simple.
johnkretzer 02-20-07, 11:16 AM	I don't know about your friend but I think orb spells are broken for the following reasons.... 1) No Sr mean it can effect thing that are 'immune' to magic like golems. 2) That fact it is instant conjuration means it can go though anti-magic fields. These are two instances where a wizard shouldn't be able to do much if anything. It is a weakness after all. Also the Orbs spells aren't just damge they also have secondary effects. Also flavor wise atleast Orb of Force should be Evocation.
ShadowDragon8685 02-20-07, 11:26 AM	Okay folks. Orbs are Balanced. Why? Beause Wizards of the Freakin' Coast would have changed them in their Spell Compendium Listing if they weren't. WotC has done a LOT more playtesting of this stuff than you have. They have found that, guess what? Wizards needed something that they could use to reliably damage monsters with high SR. Guess what? That's Orb. Yes, Orbs will rock the hell out of any one monster. Just like Fireball will rock the hell out of a horde of monsters. Neither one is a perfect spell, and if you think Orbs are overpowered, I see the problem in your DMing style right now. You depend entirely on large, crunchy-munchy single targets with Spell Resistance to hurt the party. Guess what? Orb spells are custom-tailored to blast single, crunchy-munchy monsters with SR. That is their reason for being. Smashing large monsters with high SR. They come in the flavor of Sonic because sometimes you just find a monster with energy resistance to everything else. Orb of Sound is custom-made to damage things that you just can't damage through any other means. Also take another look at Orb of Sound. It's a damage die below the other Orbs. That is it's purpose: Putting the hurt on monsters that you otherwise can't put any hurt on. Or do you think +1 Adamantine Greatswords are broken and "too good" when the Fighter picks one up and starts trashing golems that were previously immune to any damage whatsoever? How about Silver weapons and Lycanthropes, or Cold Iron weapons and devils? Get Over It. D&D's fighting aspect has a lot of rock-paper-scissors on it. Wizards fry hordes of small monsters with fireballs. That's why there's single monsters with high SR and a lot of HP and damage dealing ability. That's why there's Orbs, so the Wizard can damage the one with SR and HP. Guess what? If he prepared Ice Storm this morning, he can't damage that monster. If he prepared to kill hordes of small monsters, he can't hurt that monster. Likewise, if he prepared to kill the high-SR monster, he's in trouble when 40 goblins pop out of the woodworks. Get the frick over it.
Eerongal 02-20-07, 11:40 AM	Okay folks. Orbs are Balanced. Why? Beause Wizards of the Freakin' Coast would have changed them in their Spell Compendium Listing if they weren't. WotC has done a LOT more playtesting of this stuff than you have. They have found that, guess what? Wizards needed something that they could use to reliably damage monsters with high SR. Guess what? That's Orb. Yes, Orbs will rock the hell out of any one monster. Just like Fireball will rock the hell out of a horde of monsters. Neither one is a perfect spell, and if you think Orbs are overpowered, I see the problem in your DMing style right now. You depend entirely on large, crunchy-munchy single targets with Spell Resistance to hurt the party. Guess what? Orb spells are custom-tailored to blast single, crunchy-munchy monsters with SR. That is their reason for being. Smashing large monsters with high SR. They come in the flavor of Sonic because sometimes you just find a monster with energy resistance to everything else. Orb of Sound is custom-made to damage things that you just can't damage through any other means. Also take another look at Orb of Sound. It's a damage die below the other Orbs. That is it's purpose: Putting the hurt on monsters that you otherwise can't put any hurt on. Or do you think +1 Adamantine Greatswords are broken and "too good" when the Fighter picks one up and starts trashing golems that were previously immune to any damage whatsoever? How about Silver weapons and Lycanthropes, or Cold Iron weapons and devils? Get Over It. D&D's fighting aspect has a lot of rock-paper-scissors on it. Wizards fry hordes of small monsters with fireballs. That's why there's single monsters with high SR and a lot of HP and damage dealing ability. That's why there's Orbs, so the Wizard can damage the one with SR and HP. Guess what? If he prepared Ice Storm this morning, he can't damage that monster. If he prepared to kill hordes of small monsters, he can't hurt that monster. Likewise, if he prepared to kill the high-SR monster, he's in trouble when 40 goblins pop out of the woodworks. Get the frick over it. Although i don't agree with the rant-esque tone you used to convey your message, i do agree with the points you said and the arguments you raise. They have their strengths and weaknesses just like any other spell. Are they perfect? No. Are they good? Yes. Are they broken? Not in my opinion. Any good DM can thwart the orb-happy wizard pretty easily. And after you make him worthless for a while, i think he'll start rethinking how he prepares his spells.
Seerow 02-20-07, 11:55 AM	1) I disagree that the spells are balanced ONLY because Wizards didn't change them. Wizards leaves a lot of broken stuff to rot, and nerfs stuff that wasn't broken to begin with. (See: Complete Psionic) 2) The Orb Spells aren't broken from lack of SR, because anybody who is honestly being bothered by SR is either facing encounters too high CR for their level, or isn't trying. Seriously, take Arcane Mastery. A SINGLE FEAT. Now any creature with SR less than your level+10 is completely negligible. That's not even counting any ways to boost your caster level. 3) The Orb Spells aren't broken from lack of a save. They do too little damage for anybody to care about that. 4) The Orb Spells aren't broken from lack of energy resistance because anybody focused on blasting will have a way around energy resistance ANYWAY! Or do you always give creatures Resist Everything 20? If they have -one- weakness, be sure that a good blaster has a way to exploit it. Period.
Red12 02-20-07, 12:44 PM	The orb spells are balanced in the sense that there are a lot of other things I'd rather be doing with my spell slots. My only issue with the orb spells is that they are Conjuration spells and NOT Evocation. Seriously, thats absurd.
Serrin 02-20-07, 01:07 PM	Seerow said everything I wanted to say, but gooder. As far as evocation versus conjuration, Acid Arrow sets a precedent that summoned projectiles that you fling into things in the same action and ignore SR are conjuration. I think it's stupid too, but it'd be even stupider if one was conjuration and one wasn't.
FrostHammer 02-20-07, 01:43 PM	You know, to get around energy resistance, all you have to do is take Non-lethal subsitution. That'll change the damage to nonlethal dmage, not energy damage. Knock the creature out, and then CDG it.
DreadArchon 02-20-07, 02:35 PM	I dislike that they're non-magical and I dislike that they do the damage of a level 3 Cleric spell. I'd probably drop them to 1d6 per two levels but leave them nonmagical, were I to be given the option. That seems fair to me.
FeceMan 02-20-07, 03:09 PM	Reasons that orb spells are balanced: 1. They have a close range. Things smash squishy spellcasters who cause much pain, especially when they're within fifty feet. 2. They rely on a ranged touch attack. On large monsters, this might not be so much of a problem--then again, they have enough HP so that it won't matter--but when one starts fighting smaller, agile creatures with deflection bonuses, one starts not hitting. A lot. 3. The orb spells all do elemental damage. Many monsters have resistances and outright immunities to elemental damage. 4. They target only one monster at a time. 15d6 damage to one enemy of a group of them isn't really that great. It'd be better to cone of cold or fireball or something them. It is true, that orb of force has a much greater range and ignores elemental immunities, but it still suffers the drawback of being A DAMAGE SPELL. Not to mention that it caps at less damage. EDIT: Also, remember: any DM who complains that the warmage is overpowered is a crappy DM.
johnkretzer 02-20-07, 04:46 PM	Reasons that orb spells are balanced: 1. They have a close range. Things smash squishy spellcasters who cause much pain, especially when they're within fifty feet. 2. They rely on a ranged touch attack. On large monsters, this might not be so much of a problem--then again, they have enough HP so that it won't matter--but when one starts fighting smaller, agile creatures with deflection bonuses, one starts not hitting. A lot. 3. The orb spells all do elemental damage. Many monsters have resistances and outright immunities to elemental damage. 4. They target only one monster at a time. 15d6 damage to one enemy of a group of them isn't really that great. It'd be better to cone of cold or fireball or something them. It is true, that orb of force has a much greater range and ignores elemental immunities, but it still suffers the drawback of being A DAMAGE SPELL. Not to mention that it caps at less damage. EDIT: Also, remember: any DM who complains that the warmage is overpowered is a crappy DM. 1)Wrong...Wizards have a ton of ways to aviod attack by charging foes. 2)Touch attacks are usualy very easy. Also with True Strike....Also now the DMn has to load up creatures with magical deflection bonuses. Also two words Abjurant Champion. 3)Many monstaers don't have immunities though. 4) Yeah Fireballs, Cone of Cold, and etc are all great till you run into a group of creature immune to spells. Ot till the target is in a Anti-Magic Field. Also all the elemental orb spells have a secondary effect. Yes Orb of Forces 10d6 of unstoppable damage....all you have to is up your deflection AC and your Dex and...yup that is so fair. My point is it allow wizards and sorcerers to keep on dominating every combat possible. I just don't like the thinking that goes behind these spells because it was in reaction to the players complaining I can't damage a golem as a wizard or I can't effect him in a anti-magical feild. My answear so let the fighter who spent all that money on his poor ademntine(sp?) sword have some fun for once. Hell you can use things like teamwork and boost him. Just like he stepped infront of you your first couple of levels. My point is these spells remove a point of vulnerablity to wizards. I just don't think it is a good idea. By the way before you guys downplay 15d6 or 10d6 points of damag, How many of these do you think a Iron Golem can take with only a average of 129 HPs? Tell you what Iron Golems have a CR of 13 partly because their immunity to magic usualy means you really can't kill them quickly, since they came out with spells that pretty much negate this advantage I say reduce their CR.
ShadowDragon8685 02-20-07, 05:35 PM	At average damage, a 10d6 blast of energy will deal 35 damage. Orb of Cold, for example, is a 4th-level spell. At 10th level, a Wizard has 3 4th-level spells, plus any intelligence bonus - call it 4, 5 at the most. It will take that wizard 4 Orbs of Cold, barring stastically lucky or stastically unlucky rolls, to bring down that Golem. Four rounds of combat, three of which the golem is almost certain to get in a Full Attack on the Fighter. Four of his six or seven 4th-level spells for the day. Remember, the CR system says that an equal spell is supposed to only drain SOME resources, not kill the party. And that Iron Golem is CR 13. Four of his 4th level spells is a very significant outlay. Remember, 4th level is also concurrant with such spells as Lesser Globe of Invunerability, Evard's Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Scrying, Charm Monster, Phantasmal Killer, Greater Invisibility, Ennervation, and Polymorph. To kill that Iron Golem, the wizard had to dedicate greater than 100% of his by-level 4th-level spells to the task. That's a VERY significant number, and it constitutes an appropriate drain on the party's resources for fighting an encounter two above their CR. But what about those 15d6 blasts?Average of 55.5 damage - takes three average shots to kill the Iron Golem. At 15th level, the Wizard gets a grand total of one more 4th-level spell, bringing his total to four. By now, that single Iron Golem is TWO CRS BELOW the Wizard. At this level, it constitutes an Easy challenge, which is what it will be. And, of course, you always have the chance for rolling a 1 and failing to do any damage at all, without the concurrant chance to roll a critical hit and do double damage..... Orbs do not make the Wizard into an Iron Golem Wrecking Crew, they just give him the ability to do it if he goes Nova - and face it, any spellcaster desperate enough to kill something that he's willing to go Nova pretty much should be able to do so.
johnkretzer 02-20-07, 05:46 PM	At average damage, a 10d6 blast of energy will deal 35 damage. Orb of Cold, for example, is a 4th-level spell. At 10th level, a Wizard has 3 4th-level spells, plus any intelligence bonus - call it 4, 5 at the most. It will take that wizard 4 Orbs of Cold, barring stastically lucky or stastically unlucky rolls, to bring down that Golem. Four rounds of combat, three of which the golem is almost certain to get in a Full Attack on the Fighter. Four of his six or seven 4th-level spells for the day. Remember, the CR system says that an equal spell is supposed to only drain SOME resources, not kill the party. And that Iron Golem is CR 13. Four of his 4th level spells is a very significant outlay. Remember, 4th level is also concurrant with such spells as Lesser Globe of Invunerability, Evard's Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Scrying, Charm Monster, Phantasmal Killer, Greater Invisibility, Ennervation, and Polymorph. To kill that Iron Golem, the wizard had to dedicate greater than 100% of his by-level 4th-level spells to the task. That's a VERY significant number, and it constitutes an appropriate drain on the party's resources for fighting an encounter two above their CR. But what about those 15d6 blasts?Average of 55.5 damage - takes three average shots to kill the Iron Golem. At 15th level, the Wizard gets a grand total of one more 4th-level spell, bringing his total to four. By now, that single Iron Golem is TWO CRS BELOW the Wizard. At this level, it constitutes an Easy challenge, which is what it will be. And, of course, you always have the chance for rolling a 1 and failing to do any damage at all, without the concurrant chance to roll a critical hit and do double damage..... Orbs do not make the Wizard into an Iron Golem Wrecking Crew, they just give him the ability to do it if he goes Nova - and face it, any spellcaster desperate enough to kill something that he's willing to go Nova pretty much should be able to do so. I won't go into great detail about your anyalisis...Theough a wizard at that level can also be doing 5d8 with 1st levels spell. Or that a CR 13 is supposed to be take up 1/4 of a party resouces not a single characters. Or how useing up 4 of your 4th levels spells which aren't even you highest level spells is not going 'nova' even less so for a sorcerer. I'll just want to know why a wizard or a sorcerer 'should' be able to kill anything by going 'nova'?
Aegeu 02-20-07, 06:13 PM	Nova only works if you face 1 encounter per day. 'Nuff said.
FrostHammer 02-20-07, 07:14 PM	The point is, there are much morfe powerful spells then Orb of <element>, and people should complain about those first before complaining about Orb.
ShadowDragon8685 02-20-07, 07:18 PM	Of course - if you have more than one encounter per day, going Nova is a Bad Idea... But if it's what you gotta do, you gotta do it. And remember, that's FOUR, of a 10th-level Wizard's 4th-level spells. Since everybody's focusing on the Wizard, we seem to be assuming a Party of 1. Four of his 4th-level spells constitutes more than a quarter of a wizard's daily spells. If the wizard novas while the other party members contribute nothing except meat shielding, they've lost hit points, and the wizard has lost spells. Also, you need to take into consideration the opportunity cost of a Wizard preparing replicant spells in his fourth-level spell slots. As for Sorcers - that's a sorcerer's JOB! He's a Blaster Master, blasting spells is what he does best. And yes, Primary Spellcasters who're willing to go Nova should be able to kill CRs about +6 of their level. That's because they're expending all of their potential on one target, which leaves them down to the likely-mundane crossbow they've had since 1st level for the rest of the day.
Krusk 02-20-07, 07:47 PM	Easiest way to prove they are not good? let him play a caster based on the orb spells. Play one yourself based on good spells. He will figure it out after a bit.
Cold Napalm 02-20-07, 11:50 PM	No really, the orbs not being evocation and being in conjuration irks me to no end. I swear that whoever has the conjuration fetish at wizards needs to be let go and the schools of magic fixed. I mean really, conjuration was a top tier school in 3.0 and when they "balanced" the schools of magic, it gets teleport spells AND the orbs and some of the best blasty spells in the game?!? If you'll note, all the classic conjuration damage spells were DoTs, not big one hiters like the orb spells. The orb spells really REALLY belongs in evocation with the SR that evocation school gets. I mean really non magical orb of force...BS. That said, mechanically, it's not broken. A bit powerful, but there is just so much more you can do instead.
ShadowDragon8685 02-21-07, 12:37 AM	Look at it this way, Napalm... You could justify them for both Conjuration and Evocation. Hell, justify versions of it being made for each school, so that those who don't Evoke (or Conjure) aren't left out of all the fun.
Cold Napalm 02-21-07, 12:46 AM	The point is the conjuration school was already a top teir school BEFORE it got the orb spells and teleport spells. If the schools are suppose to be balanced now for specialization purposes, why is it that necromancy schools get practically nothing while the cojuration schools gets some of the best utility spells and blasty spells and it's all considered balanced now?!? The fact of the matter is that conjuration school in 3.5 is more powerful then the other top tier schools in 3.0 by leaps and bounds. It's so unbalanced a school thats it's not even funny. And no, orb of force for a conjuration spells still makes no sense. The elemental ones I can see as dual school, but the sonic and force should be evocation period. Basically the school system in 3.5 got FUBARED because somebody at wizards has a conjuration fetish and he's obviously in charge of the magic department and he needs to be let go...badly.
FrostHammer 02-21-07, 12:54 AM	Come to think of it, I've never seen anyone take Conjuration as a prohibited school...
Cold Napalm 02-21-07, 01:04 AM	That's because you'd have to be on the level of I'll play a wizard 5/ sorcerer 5/ druid 5/ cleric 5 level of unoptimized PoS character building before you give up conjuration as one of the two school when you specialize. Enchantment is given up all the time with necromancy and since conjuration as vitrolic shpere and the orb spells, evocation is also a popular choice to give up. Abjuration is less commonly given up. Transmuation is almost never given up now...although it was an acceptable school in 3.0 if your going conjuration specalist. Conjuration was an acceptable choice in 3.0 if your going transmuter but now, no sane wizard would give it up when giving up necromancy is worth as much as giving up mage armor, summons spells, teleport spells, creation spells, DD spells, damage over time spells, field control spells oh and the list goes on and on.
Dragonspirit 02-21-07, 01:05 AM	Orbs are Balanced. Why? Beause Wizards of the Freakin' Coast would have changed them in their Spell Compendium Listing if they weren't. Let the logical fallacies flow. Appeal to authority. It's good cause I say so? Whatever. A DM must have the discretion and sense to ban things he finds are unsuitable to his campaign. I frankly agree with the original poster's friend in disallowing them, as it's too much damage for a simple target (compared to, for example, a scorching ray) and of course the ridiculous ability to bypass spell resistance. And if you are going to use appeals to authority, try not to cite the Spell Compendium as your paragon. After all, it contains the aptly named 'Ray of Stupidity' and the boss killing 'Ray of Vertigo'. I'm sure that wll mean you have a problem with my DMing style as outlined in your original post towards anyone that disagrees with you. As for this "Nova" thing you're on, a sorcerer isn't suppose to be able to kill things 6 CRs higher so long as they expend all their resources just because you say so. Go play a video game if that's all you can contribute.
Cold Napalm 02-21-07, 01:19 AM	actually mechanically speaking a 4th level 15d6 DD spell is less then an empowered scorching ray which does 18d6. Okay so there is secondary effect and only one touch attack and doesn't need a feat and bypasses SR...but hey the scorching ray does 3d6 more damage at 3 level lower (level 12 vs 15). Mechanical balance wise, it's not broken. It's just that it breaks the school balance since "all school of magic are now equal" *cough* BS *cough*. Also internal balance wise, a single target benchmark spell for 4th level should do 15d6 cap damage if you look at the consurcting a spell section in the DMG. So that's fine. Touch attack = no save...so thats fine. Conjuration get no SR so that fine...except that conjuration damage spells are suppose to be DoTs not DD...so actually this is where the problem lies if you think it's broken mechanically as well as school balance wise. Quite frankly mechanic wise I have no issue with this spell causing any brokeness...I just have an issue with what it does as a whole to the balance of magic schools as it along with vitrolic sphere makes a major school of magic rather useless.
FrostHammer 02-21-07, 02:53 AM	I actually wonder if Scorching Ray will do more damage than Orb if you metamagic the crap out of both of them.
Cold Napalm 02-21-07, 03:15 AM	Well lets see barring sudden meta or metamagic rods...twined maxmized scorching ray is a 9th level spell that does 144 damage. A empowered maxmized orb spells does 90+7.5d6 or about 121 damage on average and 135 max damage as a 9th level spell.
johnkretzer 02-21-07, 03:52 AM	Nova only works if you face 1 encounter per day. 'Nuff said. But how are you going nova with out casting a single spell of your highest level?
Serrin 02-21-07, 03:57 AM	But how are you going nova with out casting a single spell of your highest level? Metamagic.
johnkretzer 02-21-07, 03:59 AM	And yes, Primary Spellcasters who're willing to go Nova should be able to kill CRs about +6 of their level. That's because they're expending all of their potential on one target, which leaves them down to the likely-mundane crossbow they've had since 1st level for the rest of the day. Again that is nonsense....First a 10th level wizard has 5th level spells (Which include Cone of Cold which you people are saying are soo much better then the orb spells), some 4th levels spells, 3rd level spells(Which include Fireball which you people are saying are soo much better then the orb spells), Second level spells, and 1st level spells(with the lesser orbs can do 5d8). So how this wizard not able to deal with another encounter? Or two? Also sorry a wizard should NOT be able to beat a target immune to magic period.
johnkretzer 02-21-07, 04:01 AM	Metamagic. um... in the example of shadowdragon a 10th level wizard would be able to kill a cr 13 creature without metemagic spells just 4 4th spells cast without metamagic.
johnkretzer 02-21-07, 04:05 AM	You know, to get around energy resistance, all you have to do is take Non-lethal subsitution. That'll change the damage to nonlethal dmage, not energy damage. Knock the creature out, and then CDG it. This doesn't get rid of the energy type damage...atleast I don't think it does.
johnkretzer 02-21-07, 04:06 AM	The point is, there are much morfe powerful spells then Orb of <element>, and people should complain about those first before complaining about Orb. But you brought up the Orbs spells. So we are talking about them.
FrostHammer 02-21-07, 12:17 PM	john, it changes the type to non-lethal. At least that's the wording for it. "The nonlethal spell works normally in all respects EXCEPT the type of damage dealt. A nonlethal fireball...deals nonlethal damage instead of energy damage." Cold Napalm, so the Orb does less damage, but the ignore SR thing makes it about even?
johnkretzer 02-21-07, 12:20 PM	john, it changes the type to non-lethal. At least that's the wording for it. "The nonlethal spell works normally in all respects EXCEPT the type of damage dealt. A nonlethal fireball...deals nonlethal damage instead of energy damage." Cold Napalm, so the Orb does less damage, but the ignore SR thing makes it about even? Ok you are right...my bad. Also why are the secondary save or suffer always ignored with orb spells?
FeceMan 02-21-07, 12:54 PM	1)Wrong...Wizards have a ton of ways to aviod attack by charging foes. Avoiding a charge does not negate the vulnerability of being squishy and getting smashed. 2)Touch attacks are usualy very easy. Also with True Strike....Also now the DMn has to load up creatures with magical deflection bonuses. Also two words Abjurant Champion. Again, they're easy on big things. With true strike, the caster has to burn a fifth-level spell slot or take an extra round to cast. Both of these things are valuable. 3)Many monstaers don't have immunities though. Many monsters do have immunities, though. 4) Yeah Fireballs, Cone of Cold, and etc are all great till you run into a group of creature immune to spells. Ot till the target is in a Anti-Magic Field. Also all the elemental orb spells have a secondary effect. Having the ability to cast an orb spell in an antimagic field is hardly overpowering. Yes Orb of Forces 10d6 of unstoppable damage....all you have to is up your deflection AC and your Dex and...yup that is so fair. Against one target. Whoo, 35 points of damage for a standard action. My point is it allow wizards and sorcerers to keep on dominating every combat possible. If they're dominating with damage spells, they aren't doing their job. I just don't like the thinking that goes behind these spells because it was in reaction to the players complaining I can't damage a golem as a wizard or I can't effect him in a anti-magical feild. Casters now have the ability to cast a damage spell in an antimagic field. Whoo. Necromancy spells > orb spells. My answear so let the fighter who spent all that money on his poor ademntine(sp?) sword have some fun for once. Hell you can use things like teamwork and boost him. Just like he stepped infront of you your first couple of levels. Again, if the caster is not boosting other characters and relying solely on damage, he's not dominating unless the other characters suck. My point is these spells remove a point of vulnerablity to wizards. I just don't think it is a good idea. I agree that it's a good idea to give wizards vulnerabilities. However, their most useful spells aren't damage spells, and their most useful spells cannot be used in an AMF. By the way before you guys downplay 15d6 or 10d6 points of damag, How many of these do you think a Iron Golem can take with only a average of 129 HPs? At level 13, the wizard will do 13d6 points of damage. That's around 45 points of damage. It'll probably take three rounds, assuming the wizard does nothing but cast that spell. Tell you what Iron Golems have a CR of 13 partly because their immunity to magic usualy means you really can't kill them quickly, since they came out with spells that pretty much negate this advantage I say reduce their CR. Reducing their CR assumes that the wizard has prepared an orb spell. If the wizard casts an electricity spell, the golem is affected by slow with no save. NO SAVE. ZOMG BOKREN
johnkretzer 02-21-07, 01:15 PM	Avoiding a charge does not negate the vulnerability of being squishy and getting smashed. Again, they're easy on big things. With true strike, the caster has to burn a fifth-level spell slot or take an extra round to cast. Both of these things are valuable. Many monsters do have immunities, though. Having the ability to cast an orb spell in an antimagic field is hardly overpowering. Against one target. Whoo, 35 points of damage for a standard action. If they're dominating with damage spells, they aren't doing their job. Casters now have the ability to cast a damage spell in an antimagic field. Whoo. Necromancy spells > orb spells. Again, if the caster is not boosting other characters and relying solely on damage, he's not dominating unless the other characters suck. I agree that it's a good idea to give wizards vulnerabilities. However, their most useful spells aren't damage spells, and their most useful spells cannot be used in an AMF. At level 13, the wizard will do 13d6 points of damage. That's around 45 points of damage. It'll probably take three rounds, assuming the wizard does nothing but cast that spell. Reducing their CR assumes that the wizard has prepared an orb spell. If the wizard casts an electricity spell, the golem is affected by slow with no save. NO SAVE. ZOMG BOKREN I disagree. Touch ACs aren't that hard to hit when you are built for it. Being able to cast a spell into a AMF is broken because of spells like Anti-Magic Ray(which you target on other people). So they will loose any non extradionary resistance and your touch Ac wull propably drop. Doing damage spells at 10th level is still fairly effective. With 5 spells a 10 the wizard can beat a cr 13 without taking any damage himself and still have all of his 5th level spells using Orbs spells(so he is NOT novaing to do so) To me this means orbs spells are broken.
Karish 02-21-07, 01:19 PM	Orbs kind of enter the hardcore suck level after a while. I mean, I can drain a higher level character to nothing with a series of attacks that deal negative levels. Seriously, pwning a high level character that you can surpass the SR of in a matter of a third of the time most people do? Win right there.
FrostHammer 02-21-07, 01:47 PM	I disagree. Touch ACs aren't that hard to hit when you are built for it. Being able to cast a spell into a AMF is broken because of spells like Anti-Magic Ray(which you target on other people). So they will loose any non extradionary resistance and your touch Ac wull propably drop. Doing damage spells at 10th level is still fairly effective. With 5 spells a 10 the wizard can beat a cr 13 without taking any damage himself and still have all of his 5th level spells using Orbs spells(so he is NOT novaing to do so) To me this means orbs spells are broken. You're taking 5 rounds to kill something...and you can do it without taking damage? Either that specific encounter or enemy type is favored towards you, or the DM is doing something wrong. Taking 5 turns to kill something is SLOW.
johnkretzer 02-21-07, 02:27 PM	You're taking 5 rounds to kill something...and you can do it without taking damage? Either that specific encounter or enemy type is favored towards you, or the DM is doing something wrong. Taking 5 turns to kill something is SLOW. Actualy 4 rounds. The 5th spell is preparatory. So If I know about. And sorry if 4 rounds seems slow to you. But it is dead and I am alive and unhurt. So if I took a extra 12 to 18 seconds. You are right it favored towards me but then again I am playing a wizard so (now) with the orbs spells all encounters are fovored towards me. Because that iron Golem can't effect me due to a Fly spell or even improved invis. and moving. or etc. and now instead of just slowing him all day I can just kill him( and hey if I have electric orb memorized ?I can slow him as well.) You are right a well built fighter could probable take him down faster but he'll need healing afterwards. A rogue....hahahhahahahahah :rofl:. Even with the new alternate ability not much luck there. A cleric could do as fast as the fighter with the right prep. spells. and well need healing afterwards. You see that is a point it takes a encounter that is normaly not favored to wizards and make it favored for them. Normaly at besat a wizard can do damage that is very little and over time. Now suddenly he can give these things a personal fireball with a save or suffer. That is a huge amount of power increase from before. I just saying maybe we should at this more closely then just pure numbers. Also on a side note if you can kill the enemy in less then 5 rounds everyttime then you or your DM is doing something wrong:)
Renvale999 02-21-07, 03:17 PM	Personally, I don't like War-Mages, I don't like Orb Spells and I don't allow either of them in my game. Now, does that make me a crappy DM? I prefer to think it doesn't as I allow alot of other things into my game that most DM's would scoff at (Like letting clerics cast any spell spontaneously and getting Weapon Focus, Greater WF, Weapon Specialization and Greater WS for their dieties favored weapon). Orginally I did this in order to entice players to playing clerics as none of mine wanted too. Now, I've been running clerics this way since the I started DMing, and I've never had a game broken by Clerics, but I've more than one game broken by War-Mages and Orb Spells. Basically I'm saying that you can debate the math all you want, till your blue in the face...it's simply of matter of DMing style. I prefer to think that no DM is crappy, he/she is simply inexpierenced or ignorant of the role of DM. Some DMing styles seriously clash with playing styles..that's when you pick up your books, thank the DM for his time, and go find a gaming group that fits your playing style. To each his own.
ArcTan 02-21-07, 03:37 PM	Even though it may not matter from a balance perspective as much as some people say, I instinctively balk at the idea of making Evocation even more useless as a school, making Conjurers even more the only obvious choice for specialization, and of violently breaking the logic behind how SR and magic immunity are supposed to work.
FeceMan 02-21-07, 03:39 PM	I disagree. Touch ACs aren't that hard to hit when you are built for it. Being able to cast a spell into a AMF is broken because of spells like Anti-Magic Ray(which you target on other people). So they will loose any non extradionary resistance and your touch Ac wull propably drop. If the character is built to hit touch ACs, let him hit them. Criminy pete. Ten bucks says he's giving up caster levels and feats to get that ability, though. And caster levels and feats are worth their figurative weight in gold. I have no idea what you're on about with the antimagic ray. You'll have to explain the statistics of the spell--school, range, duration, etc.--before I can pretend to understand what you're saying. Doing damage spells at 10th level is still fairly effective. Troll hunter: CR 11, 130 HP. Regeneration. Strong damage potential with rend. Athach: CR 8, 133 HP. Gray Render: CR 8, 125 HP. Eleven-Headed Hydra: CR 10, 118 HP. Fast healing. Huge damage potential. Abyssal Greater Basilisk: CR 12, 189 HP. Bebilith: CR 10, 150 HP. At tenth level, the wizard is going to be doing about 35 points of damage (like I said). It's going to take around five rounds to beat the monsters, assuming that the wizard doesn't get chomped during that time period. As for hard-to-hit monsters... Will-O'-Wisp: CR 6, touch AC of 29. Wraith: CR 5, touch AC of 15. Dread Wraith: CR 11, touch AC of 25. Dryad: CR 3, touch AC of 17. Figure the wizard has a +2 to Dexterity and a +5 BAB from levels. He has a +7 to hit. Even on a monster with a touch AC of 12, he's going to fail 20% of the time. If you want monsters with higher touch ACs, use ones that... *Are smart enough to use cover to their advantage. *Use groups of small monsters to take advantage of the orb spells' inability to hit multiple targets. *Have spells or SLAs that give bonuses to Dexterity, give deflection bonuses, and/or a miss chance. *Are customized with class levels that give bonuses to touch AC. *Can reflect or negate spells. *Can use globe of invulnerability on themselves. With 5 spells a 10 the wizard can beat a cr 13 without taking any damage himself and still have all of his 5th level spells using Orbs spells(so he is NOT novaing to do so) To me this means orbs spells are broken. Yeah, and how many times per day can he do this? How much damage is going to be inflicted upon him in those five rounds? How screwed is he going to be without the support of the rest of his party?
FrostHammer 02-21-07, 04:16 PM	John, if all you are fighting are dumb golems, then sure your wizard will be able to do that. But if the golem calls for backup, or alreayd has buddies with him, or hell, is using a magic item that allows flight of air-walking, then you JUST might get hurt. This spell is quote-unquote "uber" against a specific type of enemy. Yay. Hold Person is uber against everyone with low will saves. you gonna argue Hold Person is overpowered too? Why am I trying to convince you that Orb is not broken anyways? I'm convincing my friend. You can have fun having your NPC baddies cast Orb all day long when your PCs use spells that potentially end the battle in one round.
Momar 02-21-07, 04:18 PM	To go with what FrostHammer said, try taking a different CR 13 critter. I don't think your orb using wizard is going to do nearly as well against a death slaad, for example.
Hariman 02-21-07, 09:02 PM	OP, sorry cannot help you. Orbs get around the most problematic defense for any mage: SR. Taht makes them overpowered. Same as a fighter who could touch attack reliably on every attack every round. That would be overpowered as it negates his biggest problem: AC. So a Glowing Brilliance weapon is broken? What if a flanker rogue got a GB weapon? Oh noes! You broke D&D! (Sarcasm) But the DM can never counter a GB weapon, unless he uses undead and constructs. To the Original Poster (OP): Tell your DM that he needs to include the occasional high touch AC enemy. A monk, rogue or high dexterity enemy with Combat Expertise is great for this. This will confound the ranged touch attack strategy enough to make it seem less broken. Pointing out the lower damage done by the orbs is also good. (As opposed with shocking grasp and other spells.) It's like tossing in a high spell resistance enemy against a Warlock. All of a sudden the "broken" ability is no longer broken. Also, use a variety of spells instead of only using orbs.
The Livewire 02-21-07, 10:14 PM	Orb of force is nice (I can't speak to the other orbs, this is the only one my Battle Sorcerer can cast) But if you're going to allow it. There's another good spell in Spell Compendium that should be available. Ray Deflection. 4th level abjuration. Shuts down all ranged touch attacks. All. Orbs, rays, etc. Your antimagic ray (7th level abjuration) is gone. Your Orb of whatever is gone. Seems fair to me.
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 04:14 AM	If the character is built to hit touch ACs, let him hit them. Criminy pete. Ten bucks says he's giving up caster levels and feats to get that ability, though. And caster levels and feats are worth their figurative weight in gold. I have no idea what you're on about with the antimagic ray. You'll have to explain the statistics of the spell--school, range, duration, etc.--before I can pretend to understand what you're saying. Troll hunter: CR 11, 130 HP. Regeneration. Strong damage potential with rend. Athach: CR 8, 133 HP. Gray Render: CR 8, 125 HP. Eleven-Headed Hydra: CR 10, 118 HP. Fast healing. Huge damage potential. Abyssal Greater Basilisk: CR 12, 189 HP. Bebilith: CR 10, 150 HP. At tenth level, the wizard is going to be doing about 35 points of damage (like I said). It's going to take around five rounds to beat the monsters, assuming that the wizard doesn't get chomped during that time period. As for hard-to-hit monsters... Will-O'-Wisp: CR 6, touch AC of 29. Wraith: CR 5, touch AC of 15. Dread Wraith: CR 11, touch AC of 25. Dryad: CR 3, touch AC of 17. Figure the wizard has a +2 to Dexterity and a +5 BAB from levels. He has a +7 to hit. Even on a monster with a touch AC of 12, he's going to fail 20% of the time. If you want monsters with higher touch ACs, use ones that... *Are smart enough to use cover to their advantage. *Use groups of small monsters to take advantage of the orb spells' inability to hit multiple targets. *Have spells or SLAs that give bonuses to Dexterity, give deflection bonuses, and/or a miss chance. *Are customized with class levels that give bonuses to touch AC. *Can reflect or negate spells. *Can use globe of invulnerability on themselves. Yeah, and how many times per day can he do this? How much damage is going to be inflicted upon him in those five rounds? How screwed is he going to be without the support of the rest of his party? Let see probably twice...and still have other spells. Also tha is a nice list but half of it isn't effective against Orbs spells because once you cast it it isn't a magical effect. ANd you are missing mu point entirely a wizard shouldn't even come close to beating a golem at all ever.... Also that list of monsters that have alot of HP can't fly...and that list of monster with high Touch Ac is very small. As to Anti-Magic Ray it is 7th level Abj. Close range, 1round/level, will save negates. Target is effected by personal AMF. Spells active and supernatural abilities are suprressed, can't use spell-like abilities or cast spells. Can't be effected by most spell eithers( like the orbs spells). Though items are still active unless separately covered( I thought other wise). It is on page 14 of the spell compendium. Also a rogue/wizard aarcane trickster is digusting build and worth the lose of caster level if you want to use ranged touch attack spells. Also Spellwarp Sniper.
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 04:34 AM	John, if all you are fighting are dumb golems, then sure your wizard will be able to do that. But if the golem calls for backup, or alreayd has buddies with him, or hell, is using a magic item that allows flight of air-walking, then you JUST might get hurt. This spell is quote-unquote "uber" against a specific type of enemy. Yay. Hold Person is uber against everyone with low will saves. you gonna argue Hold Person is overpowered too? Why am I trying to convince you that Orb is not broken anyways? I'm convincing my friend. You can have fun having your NPC baddies cast Orb all day long when your PCs use spells that potentially end the battle in one round. Just trying help you to convince your friend that orbs are dealable with....I mean you never did state what his objections were so I took the role of devil advocate here. I dislike the orb spells becuse while they can be powerful a intelligent DM can deal with them. No their power level isn't the issue with me... It that they shouldn't do what they do. I don't see how they go though a AMF or effect creature immune to magic. Also I like them better as Evocation spells...but that is just me. But I do allow them to my players. And if used smartly as with almost anything can be effective. Now it is nice that you guys kill NPCs in one round that never happens with my NPCs because they aren't morons.
Yokomohoyo 02-22-07, 04:38 AM	Oh noes! You broke D&D! (Sarcasm) No problem... Pass me th elmers glue and some duct tape and I get to work on it right away... :mage:
Serrin 02-22-07, 06:22 AM	If you're sure that Orbs will go through AMF, go look up AMF, orbs (specifically: range), and then line of effect. I'm not saying they don't, but I'm saying that's some muddy water.
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 06:31 AM	If you're sure that Orbs will go through AMF, go look up AMF, orbs (specifically: range), and then line of effect. I'm not saying they don't, but I'm saying that's some muddy water. Also look up the instantaneous durations creation conjuration effects on page 173 of the PhB. Also if you look at the Antimagic Field spell on page 200 of the PHB, in the third paragraph, the last sentence in parenthesis says instantaneous conjurations are not effected by Anti-Magical Field.
Serrin 02-22-07, 09:03 AM	Ah yes, that's a fun clause. One possible way to interpret that: the effect of, say, stone wall is a stone wall. So if you bring an AMF to an area full of summoned stone walls, they don't wink out. On the other hand, it doesn't allow you to cast stone wall from outside an AMF into the area of an AMF. You need line of effect before you can cause any effect. Thus, you can't orb into an AMF, because it's not exempted until after it's been cast. Now, if the orb flying through the air to the target wasn't part of the spell, or you could choose to carry the orb around with you, or something, I'd agree that it's pretty clearcut. On the other hand, it is, you can't, and it's murky again.
starfire311 02-22-07, 09:12 AM	I always thought the orb spells were kinda weak... It is rare that you come up against a golem(at least IME), and this is when the spells shine, in most other encoutners the SR is trivial or you have a lot of targets, so you would be better off using a better damage dealing spell if that is your MO.
Cifer 02-22-07, 11:13 AM	My main problem with them is that they are a good amount of elemental damage outside of evocation, making the school pretty easy to drop.
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 11:31 AM	Ah yes, that's a fun clause. One possible way to interpret that: the effect of, say, stone wall is a stone wall. So if you bring an AMF to an area full of summoned stone walls, they don't wink out. On the other hand, it doesn't allow you to cast stone wall from outside an AMF into the area of an AMF. You need line of effect before you can cause any effect. Thus, you can't orb into an AMF, because it's not exempted until after it's been cast. Now, if the orb flying through the air to the target wasn't part of the spell, or you could choose to carry the orb around with you, or something, I'd agree that it's pretty clearcut. On the other hand, it is, you can't, and it's murky again. Except that once a orb spell is made and flung it is no longer magical in nature.(I know I find it silly to). You see I think the orginal intention was what you said it is but it was worded badly and people have capitalize on it. I just think the orb spells in design are not well thought out.
FrostHammer 02-22-07, 12:49 PM	I understand your position, john, and I personalyl wouldn't mind if the Orb spells are evocation spells. But, think about it this way: If you change it so they don't ignore SR, who would use it? It does less damage than an Empowered Scorching ray at all but the late, late levels, and unlike Scorching Ray, you can't even split up the attack to hit up to 3 different creatures! Ignoring SR is the only thing that makes Orb worthwhile over Scorching Ray. Remember, damage spells already suck compared to other spells. No ned to nerf them further.
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 12:57 PM	I understand your position, john, and I personalyl wouldn't mind if the Orb spells are evocation spells. But, think about it this way: If you change it so they don't ignore SR, who would use it? It does less damage than an Empowered Scorching ray at all but the late, late levels, and unlike Scorching Ray, you can't even split up the attack to hit up to 3 different creatures! Ignoring SR is the only thing that makes Orb worthwhile over Scorching Ray. Remember, damage spells already suck compared to other spells. No ned to nerf them further. Like I said I basicaly agree with you....even going though Sr isn't that bad. But going though AMF is pushing it, but all of this dealabler with by a creatvie and knowledgeable DM. Favor wise the spells to be rethought out I believe. For instance while I might be able to accept the elemental orbs as conjuration effects...I can't with orb of force. Force effects should be the sole domain of evocation and abjuration. But all that is just opinion. What is the person you trying to convince opinion on why orbs spells are too good?
FrostHammer 02-22-07, 01:52 PM	Just my friend. He's not a DM (my DM has already allowed the Orb spells as they are), but he says that the orb will let me kill thing way too quickly. I tell him, "Sure, if I go nova, I can kill something my CR in 2, 3 rounds depending on the enemy. Then I'll be useless for the rest of the day. And there are many enemies resistant or immune to my strategy, depending on immunities, HP total, and many other things" He's playing a shock-trooper Fighter. Maybe he just feels underpowered compared to eveyrone else or something.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-22-07, 02:10 PM	The main thing to remember with the orbs is that they are situational. In the right situation they rock the house. Every other time they are sub-optimal at best. Take a Red dragon for example. It is a big flying baddy with decent SR, a breath weapon that requires no attack role, and is not subject to SR. It usually has reach, and high attack bonus. It also has blind sight to get around things like invisibility. And a lot of hit points. It is however vulnerable to a certain type of energy, cold. And has an abysmal touch AC. This is a situation where your orb of cold is going to capitalize. It will do double damage,(average of 70 at 10th CL) and only miss on a natural one. (Unless there are serious problems with the wizard.) Scorching ray on the other won't do anything, neither will fire ball. Cone of cold will, but do you really want to be that close to the dragon? And with cone of cold you have to role vrs SR. The limiting factor with the orbs even in their ideal situation is that they require the right energy descriptor. With the energy correct descriptor matching up, they will either overcome the energy resistance were other spells won't, or they may even deal double damage. Like with the dragon example. Otherwise they are inherently weaker the scorching ray. (same dice damage at 11th level, but scorching ray is lower level and split up amongst multiple targets.) Granted a wizard could know all of them, but they really can’t prepare all of the different kinds more them once each with a couple a few extra times. A sorcerer isn't even going to know all of them because it doesn't have the spells known. A war mage does know them all and does not have to prepare them. However the war mage is limited in that blasting is all it can do. No buffs, no divination goodies, no charming the enemy, just blasting and that’s it. However we do have orb of force. It will get past SR and energy resistance. So let’s compare it to another force damaging spell. Let’s say magic missile. Using a tenth level caster. Orb of force is a 4th level spell, with a range 70ft. Magic missile is 1st level spell with a range of 200ft At tenth level a Wizard can cast 3+bonus 4th level spells, and a sorcerer can fire off 5+ bonus spells. Compared to the 4 + bonus, and 6 +bonus respectively. S sorcerer knows only 2 4th level spells, but knows 5 first level spells. Also because magic missile is a first level spell it allows the caster to prep more useful 4th level spells such as improved invisibility, Dimension Door, or Phantasmal Killer. The tenth level caster could also use maximize spell on the missile, but not on the orb because of its higher spell level. He could empower the orb to a 5th level slot, but has even less of those. Magic missile could be maximized, and empowered in the same split. (Empowered orb average 52.5 with no SR. Max/empowered missile 37 guaranteed, but won’t miss.) A wand of magic missile coasts 6,750gp (the spell caps at 9th level so no further caster level is required) While a wand of orb of force coasts 30,000gp (10cl for 10d6 damage) The orb of force will deal 35 points of damage on average, but has a chance to miss the target as it requires a touch attack. However it over comes SR. Magic missile will deal on average 17.5. But will always hit, but is negated by SR. Neither spell allows a saving through. The same comparison can be used for sonic, except again sometimes the sonic damage helps, like with walls. And sometimes it doesn't, like with a storm elemental. In my opinion the orbs are good, if the situation is right, and you can predict it. Scorching ray is better when you the rest of the time when you can’t predict what you’ll run into. Orb of force is a good general blast spell, but magic missile is still a little better. I wouldn't waste the spell known if you’re a sorcerer, but as a wizard I may pick it up if there is nothing better at the time. I can see the argument for them being in the conj school. But I do have to agree they should have been put with the evocation school, and just not be effected by SR. Personally though I'd stick with summons, and battle control for my casters. But hey sometimes blasting is fun, but there are many blasty spells that are just that much better, like scorching ray, or vitriolic sphere.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-22-07, 02:15 PM	I tell him, "Sure, if I go nova, I can kill something my CR in 2, 3 rounds depending on the enemy. Then I'll be useless for the rest of the day. And there are many enemies resistant or immune to my strategy, depending on immunities, HP total, and many other things" He's playing a shock-trooper Fighter. Maybe he just feels underpowered compared to eveyrone else or something. The thing is you aren't actually going nova. Even if you were to blow off all of your 4th level spells you'd still have 1-3rd level and any spells above 4th level you may or may not have. Truth be told at most you'd be using only 25% of your spell slots. You'd still have 75% of your spells left, and won't have expended anything like scrolls, wand charages, or potions. Thats hardly going nova, and if your useless the rest of the day becuase of that then quiet frankly your sucking pretty badly. Compared to board standard anyways, your party may be something different entirely. And if your friend is feeling over shawdowed maybe you could prep a stone skin, or fire shield just for him. Just a thought.
FrostHammer 02-22-07, 02:44 PM	TPK: I'm a sorc, not a Wizard. I don't know those spells. We got another wizard in the party who admittedly could be doing more to buff the party. Oh, and shouldn't an Orb of cold do 1.5 times, NOT 2 times the damage? I thought that's how vulnerability works?
johnkretzer 02-22-07, 03:09 PM	TPK: I'm a sorc, not a Wizard. I don't know those spells. We got another wizard in the party who admittedly could be doing more to buff the party. Oh, and shouldn't an Orb of cold do 1.5 times, NOT 2 times the damage? I thought that's how vulnerability works? It does but TPK made a 3.0ism. He is playing a fighter. He is going to feel overpowered about casters...and the Orbs spells do replace him where he could shine(against spell immuned creatures and AMF Now a caster can replace him or do better). I have felt the same way when it happens, but then I smile and think to myself 'yeah sure but can they make their ACs in the low 60's or or a touch AC in the high 50's.' I think part of the problem is that you both veiw the game has who gets the kill..as invidual achievment not as working as a team. Which isn't a problem but it will cause resentment. My suggestion is to instead of pointing how Orbs are not broken point out what he can do that is awesome( which might be hard because well he is a fighter), also encourage more team work in play among the players(just because you are a sorcerer doesn't mean you can't take a couple of buff spells). Does what I say makes sense? I don't think this is a orb issue as much as he is feeling left behind on the power curve(which might be true or maybe not).
FrostHammer 02-22-07, 03:29 PM	I'm totally fine with not being the one to kill most of the time. It's just that *this* particular game I decided to make a blaster sorc. And I do have enlarge Person, and I cast it on the Fighter regularly. I guess Fighter8 is just too un-optimized...
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 03:37 AM	I'm totally fine with not being the one to kill most of the time. It's just that *this* particular game I decided to make a blaster sorc. And I do have enlarge Person, and I cast it on the Fighter regularly. I guess Fighter8 is just too un-optimized... There is nothing wrong with Fighter 8...soon it really goes downhill but at that level it isn't too bad. Actualy a fighter can be good it is just alot harder and a caster will always outshine them. Let put it this way I don't think you can convince him that Orbs spells aren't overpowered because that is just a symptom of his feelings of inadequacies. If you want him to feel better just help him out in game( maybe get other people including the DM to help also). Also play up what he can do well etc. Or not...also I am just guessing here but it seems like this maybe the case. I hope that helped.
Serrin 02-23-07, 04:55 AM	John, just to be clear, my logic is something like follows: 1) You need line of effect to a target before you can target a spell. 2) You target a spell before any of its effects happen. 3) AMF blocks line of effect. 4) If the spell is an instantaneous conjuration, AMF does not affect that spells effects. Conclusion: You can't orb into an AMF because by the time there are any effects, you've already had to select a legal target who is not in the AMF. Admittedly, the logic isn't absolutely solid, and you could probably spend a few hours arguing with your DM about point two. As far as sorcerers go, if you're going to play a blaster sorc, energy substitution basically turns each of your nukes known into four or five nukes known. It's a thing of beauty. As for power curves, I really think the first line of the description of the fighter class should be "Warning: only take more than four levels of this class if you're really, really sure you know what you're doing". Fighter just comes up short against everybody, unless you do some serious optimizing, and it always seems like it's the fighter who has a problem with how good the casters are.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-23-07, 11:44 AM	John, just to be clear, my logic is something like follows: 1) You need line of effect to a target before you can target a spell. 2) You target a spell before any of its effects happen. 3) AMF blocks line of effect. 4) If the spell is an instantaneous conjuration, AMF does not affect that spells effects. Conclusion: You can't orb into an AMF because by the time there are any effects, you've already had to select a legal target who is not in the AMF. I think your playing the wrong game here. D&D should never get as rules technical as magic the gathering. Orbs may be fired into an AMF becuase the discription on AMF allows for instananouse conj spells, of which the orbs are, to do so. I do however agree with my wife that as writen the orbs are cheesy. Not over powered just cheese. They are in essence balls of elemental energy, that fly at their target with unnatural pricesion. How is that not a magic effect? They should be evocation spells, and either allow SR at a lower level, or just say in the spell discription that they do not. Either that or they should be treated like the phisical attacks they are pretneding to be. Thus subject to regular AC and DR like any other phsical attack. As far as sorcerers go, if you're going to play a blaster sorc, energy substitution basically turns each of your nukes known into four or five nukes known. It's a thing of beauty. Not quiet. Energy sub allows for energy to subbed out for one type of energy, not multiples. For example if you had energy sub cold. You could apply it to fire ball, and have cold ball. That would mean that the single fire nuke, would have only one extra option, a cold nuke. However you could take the feat multiple times, each time choosing a new energy type. However that would waste presciouse feat slots. If blasting is your fancy then psionics are far and away the best way to go. Energy ray, blast and cone have the best versitility as far as energy discriptor is concerned. And the ability to aguement with the power points system allows for maxium controll over resources. As for power curves, I really think the first line of the description of the fighter class should be "Warning: only take more than four levels of this class if you're really, really sure you know what you're doing". Fighter just comes up short against everybody, unless you do some serious optimizing, and it always seems like it's the fighter who has a problem with how good the casters are. the problem witht he fighter is that feats do not replace, nor do they equal class abilities. Combine that with 50% of the class is 'dead' levels and you have something pretty weak. What the fighetrs needs is something at every level, and soemthing that is powerful enough to compete with class abilities like; wild shape, snaek attack or smite. But general enough to maintain the fighetrs flavour.
FrostHammer 02-23-07, 12:32 PM	Energy Sub is too limited to be honest. That's why at level 16 I'm taking a level of Archmage. I'll lose a level 8 spell slot to spontaneously decide what my damage type will be, including Sonic. Energy Sub in 3.5 doesn't allow Sonic, but the Archmage ability, does. Before then, I'll just have to make do. Learn a few ice spells as well. As for Fighters, what they need is a class ability that let's them swap out all of their feats for a completely new set as a Full-Round action, and also a bigger list of class skills, with a corresponding increase in skill points per level.
Serrin 02-23-07, 02:14 PM	Blah, good catch on energy sub. Still, the only time that orbs increase your versatility is when you're a warmage, or when you're watering down your damage to almost certainly hit. As far as AMF/orbs/rule interaction, I didn't write the rules to be that complex, don't blame me. I just read them. If D&D isn't supposed to be that complex, I suggest you go take it up with the writers. They could've written "AMF has no effect on spells from the conjuration school with instantaneous duration" and then I'd have nowhere to stand. Or perhaps you're playing the wrong game, because clearly you would prefer to play with your own rules than the ones clearly written? No. I'm not going to be so arrogant as to suggest that. I play D&D one way, you play D&D another way. I'm not going to claim to speak for the creators of D&D on the subject of how they intended the game to be played, and who should play it, and why. I doubt you have that kind of authority either. As far as fighters, they don't need something every level, they just need something good enough that they don't need it every level. The only classes that get something every level are casters. Everyone else just has abilities that are good enough to make the class worth playing, at some levels or others. Except maybe monks, and bards. The point is that fighters generally lead to the player who's playing the fighter being sad and dejected, and if they don't fix the fighter somehow, they should make it an NPC class. It's like a newb trap, as it is.
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 03:30 PM	. They could've written "AMF has no effect on spells from the conjuration school with instantaneous duration" and then I'd have nowhere to stand. It does say that in the AMF description. But then again orbs spells shouldn't have a intant duration but a duration of one round. That would be the simplest change that would make sense to me. While the element is there non-magicaly is is maintained in a orb shape by a magical effect. I mean pick up a glob of acid and throw it, or orb of fire, or a orb od kinetic energy. See how far you can throw it or fling it mechanicaly and see how far you can throw it with out something to keep it from dispersion. I mean the problem here is that this part should be complex to cover things like this instead they made it simple and now it stpos being internaly logical.
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 03:32 PM	Energy Sub is too limited to be honest. That's why at level 16 I'm taking a level of Archmage. I'll lose a level 8 spell slot to spontaneously decide what my damage type will be, including Sonic. Energy Sub in 3.5 doesn't allow Sonic, but the Archmage ability, does. Before then, I'll just have to make do. Learn a few ice spells as well. As for Fighters, what they need is a class ability that let's them swap out all of their feats for a completely new set as a Full-Round action, and also a bigger list of class skills, with a corresponding increase in skill points per level. What fighter need is there to be less spells and more higher level feats.
Serrin 02-23-07, 04:02 PM	John: It says the effects of the spells, not the instant conjurations themselves. That's the hair I've been trying to split. If it didn't specifically call out "effects" rather than spells, the intent and the rules would be clear.
FrostHammer 02-23-07, 04:12 PM	What fighter need is there to be less spells and more higher level feats. Doesn't help too much if the MONSTERS have the same level of spellcasting and spell-like abilities. I guess you could have the DM throw less of thoe monsters at you and throw more NPC groups with actual class levels.
Kursk 02-23-07, 04:22 PM	Okay folks. Orbs are Balanced. Why? Beause Wizards of the Freakin' Coast would have changed them in their Spell Compendium Listing if they weren't. WotC has done a LOT more playtesting of this stuff than you have. They have found that, guess what? Wizards needed something that they could use to reliably damage monsters with high SR. Guess what? That's Orb. Sorry, I had to stop there and clean the Pepsi off my screen. :rofl: Seriously, are you kidding?
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 04:30 PM	Doesn't help too much if the MONSTERS have the same level of spellcasting and spell-like abilities. I guess you could have the DM throw less of thoe monsters at you and throw more NPC groups with actual class levels. You miss my point slightly the fact a wizard get to choose from a list 1000s of spells and that are for the most part more powerful then the fighters feat... What a DM should do is throw mixed groups at parties. Things that the caster can't just eradicate in one round.
johnkretzer 02-23-07, 04:33 PM	John: It says the effects of the spells, not the instant conjurations themselves. That's the hair I've been trying to split. If it didn't specifically call out "effects" rather than spells, the intent and the rules would be clear. I can see your point but the orb spells say the effect is the orb...so again :confused: It isn't a clear cut either way. And that is a problem of the way it was written. But I couldn't argue with a DM who ruled one way or the other...after I made my point of course.
Novabomb 02-23-07, 09:41 PM	Im surprised that you guys are still arguing over the orbs. Are the orbs over the power curve compared to other direct damage spells, yes they are... i mean obviously. Is direct damage a good tactic, hell no (minus disintegrate maybe). The orbs are kinda like the best of the losers. Direct damage may be a self-satisfying use of resources, but it definately not the best use.
Serrin 02-23-07, 10:15 PM	Just so long as my point was understood.
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 03:28 AM	Just so long as my point was understood. Oh I understand it...and like I said it isn't as clear cut. Personaly as a player if my DM says it can't go though AMF spells then that is the rule since it is not so clear.
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 03:30 AM	Im surprised that you guys are still arguing over the orbs. Are the orbs over the power curve compared to other direct damage spells, yes they are... i mean obviously. Is direct damage a good tactic, hell no (minus disintegrate maybe). The orbs are kinda like the best of the losers. Direct damage may be a self-satisfying use of resources, but it definately not the best use. Actualy I don't think it was about the orbs spell exactly I think it has more to do with what I like to call 'the fighter's lament' We just discussing if orb spell go though AMF.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-24-07, 12:19 PM	I understnd your point Serrin. Mine is just that according to the discription for the orbs, the orb is the effect of the spell. Simmiliarily the wall created by wall of stone is it effect. And the discription on AMF states that it does not effect things like that. Hence why the orbs can fly through an AMF, or a wall of stone is not effect by AMF. Try to think of the orbs as summon orb of blank. Or pretend it is orb of brick. You conjure into exsistance a brick, and then a magical force hurls it at your target. The orb is none magic once lunched, and the force is gone after it does the lunching. Are a good flavour character. Their a generalist, and the idea of a professional fighter is sound. Mechanical their lacking, but in a nonhigh power camapign it shouldn't make too much of a difference.
Kursk 02-24-07, 12:56 PM	I understnd your point Serrin. Mine is just that according to the discription for the orbs, the orb is the effect of the spell. Simmiliarily the wall created by wall of stone is it effect. And the discription on AMF states that it does not effect things like that. Hence why the orbs can fly through an AMF, or a wall of stone is not effect by AMF. Try to think of the orbs as summon orb of blank. Or pretend it is orb of brick. You conjure into exsistance a brick, and then a magical force hurls it at your target. The orb is none magic once lunched, and the force is gone after it does the lunching. So the Orb itself is some type of mechanical/chemical devise and not itself magic?
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 01:55 PM	So the Orb itself is some type of mechanical/chemical devise and not itself magic? Which is why it doesn't make sense. If magic is not keeping ot together. Why doesn't the acid spread out like when you throw water? or Why doesn't the electricity grounf it self? or Why the fire doesn't disperse? or Cold doesn't disperse?(ot if it is a solid why is it not effected by DR and consider bludgeon damage...sorry a pet peeve I have with all magical effect get around DR) Sonic I can see and Force....but how is the conjurer conjurer them? Where is he getting them? I mean there is elemental planes and stuff....
Always-Late 02-24-07, 02:14 PM	Putting Orbs in conjuration is STUPID. Scenario: Large coliseum has been blanketed in antimagic field. Wizard is stranded in middle. Fighter: You're trapped now? Where are all your tricks and traps now, wizard? Wizard: Maximized Orb of Electricity (hey, it's antimagic, no immunity anywhere), Quickened Orb of Frost. Fighter: *SMACK SMACK* Hey, what the hell? I specifically paid him three billion gold to antimagic this whole place up. Wizard: They're conjurations, not evocations. Fighter: It's a glowing ball of electricity. I know that I sure can't pick up a glowing ball of electricity. You know, usually glowing balls of electricity don't just sit there if they're not magical. You know, if it's a conjuration, I should be able to hold it, or poke it, or pick it up, right? Shouldn't it dissipate if it's not magical? Here, create one on the ground and roll it over here. Wizard: *points at ground, lesser orb of frost* *explodes in icy explosion* Wizard: No can do. Fighter: So, you can't hold it, or touch it, it effects me only for a round, and more or less only exists when you're attacking me with it. Exactly like a ray, except somehow it's not a ray. Wizard: More or less. Fighter: What the hell? Wizard: We're wizards. We get nice things. You don't. Fighter: *rushes wizard*
Traevanon 02-24-07, 04:31 PM	Hah hah hah... Yeah the orb spells, and the Warlock's Vitriolic Blast (I think that's what its called) are pretty lame. Why are they touch attacks? Why do they decimate golems so easily? Its really best to just reject them unless you are prepared to custom create all encounters. The base encounters with energy resistance (or decent touch ACs) are just too few.
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 05:18 PM	Putting Orbs in conjuration is STUPID. Scenario: Large coliseum has been blanketed in antimagic field. Wizard is stranded in middle. Fighter: You're trapped now? Where are all your tricks and traps now, wizard? Wizard: Maximized Orb of Electricity (hey, it's antimagic, no immunity anywhere), Quickened Orb of Frost. Fighter: *SMACK SMACK* Hey, what the hell? I specifically paid him three billion gold to antimagic this whole place up. Wizard: They're conjurations, not evocations. Fighter: It's a glowing ball of electricity. I know that I sure can't pick up a glowing ball of electricity. You know, usually glowing balls of electricity don't just sit there if they're not magical. You know, if it's a conjuration, I should be able to hold it, or poke it, or pick it up, right? Shouldn't it dissipate if it's not magical? Here, create one on the ground and roll it over here. Wizard: *points at ground, lesser orb of frost* *explodes in icy explosion* Wizard: No can do. Fighter: So, you can't hold it, or touch it, it effects me only for a round, and more or less only exists when you're attacking me with it. Exactly like a ray, except somehow it's not a ray. Wizard: More or less. Fighter: What the hell? Wizard: We're wizards. We get nice things. You don't. Fighter: *rushes wizard* well funny and I get the point. A wizard can not cast any spell while in the AMF. They can oly(maybe cast though it. Just want to point that out so they don't decide to abuse this even more
Archangel62 02-24-07, 05:24 PM	Hah hah hah... Yeah the orb spells, and the Warlock's Vitriolic Blast (I think that's what its called) are pretty lame. Why are they touch attacks? Why do they decimate golems so easily? Its really best to just reject them unless you are prepared to custom create all encounters. The base encounters with energy resistance (or decent touch ACs) are just too few. Vitriolic blast is so the warlocks can do SOMETHING to affect creatures that have high SR or have immunities.
Kursk 02-24-07, 06:48 PM	Which is why it doesn't make sense. If magic is not keeping ot together. Why doesn't the acid spread out like when you throw water? or Why doesn't the electricity grounf it self? or Why the fire doesn't disperse? or Cold doesn't disperse?(ot if it is a solid why is it not effected by DR and consider bludgeon damage...sorry a pet peeve I have with all magical effect get around DR) Sonic I can see and Force....but how is the conjurer conjurer them? Where is he getting them? I mean there is elemental planes and stuff.... Then it must be a magic or spell effect = doesn't work in an AMF. Must be a typo in WotC's part.
johnkretzer 02-24-07, 07:05 PM	Then it must be a magic or spell effect = doesn't work in an AMF. Must be a typo in WotC's part. I think they were trying to do make them work in a AMF, but the result was absurd and not logicaly consistent with it self.
Serrin 02-24-07, 09:12 PM	TPK: The only thing about saying that the orb is the effect and then it just, for some reason hits the target is that, well...it completely ignores my argument about having to have line of effect before targeting, and the orb clearly needing a target since it has a range, and also says "target" a coupla times. And the thing with it only saying that the effects are unaffected by AMF, not the casting of the spell. If you want to try arguing it from a "realistic" perspective, well, first of all it's magic, and second, like people have been pointing out the last three or four times this discussion came up, the magical propelling force would quit working as soon as it entered the AMF, and also possibly any magic holding the orb together. Then you get a splatter of elemental stuff that falls well short of its target. And we don't really have rules for that sort of thing.
yrogerg 02-24-07, 09:50 PM	TPK: The only thing about saying that the orb is the effect and then it just, for some reason hits the target is that, well...it completely ignores my argument about having to have line of effect before targeting, and the orb clearly needing a target since it has a range, and also says "target" a coupla times. And the thing with it only saying that the effects are unaffected by AMF, not the casting of the spell. Question: If the effect (the Orb) isn't blocked by AMF (since according to the description itself, the effect has already occurred), then why wouldn't the caster still have line of effect? I can't find anything in the SRD that states that AMF automatically blocks line of effect, irrespective of whether the effect is an Instantaneous Conjuration.
Traevanon 02-25-07, 02:43 PM	Vitriolic blast is so the warlocks can do SOMETHING to affect creatures that have high SR or have immunities. They arent entitled simply by virtue of uselessness to an option that bypasses that uselessness. If that was the case Fighters would be entitled to Feats that allowed them to fly. But the fact is they arent useless, just inferior. If they didnt have Vitriolic Blast there would still be many creative options for them to get around the immunities of their foes. They could just use a sword... or a wand, they do get UMD... or actual alchemical acid... or a big rock... they could get feats or magic items that help with SR... What's creative about "I fly up and blast them from beyond their reach until they are slag."
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-25-07, 02:48 PM	Question: If the effect (the Orb) isn't blocked by AMF (since according to the description itself, the effect has already occurred), then why wouldn't the caster still have line of effect? I can't find anything in the SRD that states that AMF automatically blocks line of effect, irrespective of whether the effect is an Instantaneous Conjuration. Darn you and beating me to my point. Basically again this isn't magic the gathering, there aren't "static checks" or "valid targeting rules" at the time of casting. A wizard could cast and fire an orb dirictly into the sky. Or at a wall or somehting else it normally couldn't target. The spell may do anything, but it would still be cast, the slot used, components expended, etc. By saying that I am not ignoring your point about line of effect, I'm negating it. I will also further adress it with yrogerg point. AMF doesn't block line of effect, it blocks effect. Thus unless something else is blocking the line of effect, such as a wall shooting an orb through AMF is perfectly fine. The AMF also does not effect the force propelling orb, as that was used to lunch it. Instead of it being like a mage hand carrying the orb to its target, it is more like the force throwing the orb. Simmiliar to the blast propelling a bullet from a gun, or an arrow from a bow. I can't explain it "realistically" becuase magic isn't very "realistic". Even in fantasy magic these spells are stretching it a bit. However the energy may not disapate right away becuase of the speed at which they are travelling. Remember they are travelling their full distance in less then a few seconds. Water can hold a drop shape when falling, acid would too. Perhaps the cold energy is a really, really cold liquid. Like liquid nitrogen. Perhaps the fire is actually a ball of burning liquid or gas. Simmiliar to how a flame througher works. And the electric one...well its just magic. Again though, I think their cheesy and break suspension of disbelieve as well. I'm just offering a way in which they could work as writen.
Archtyrant Terevoth 02-25-07, 02:58 PM	The orb spells are balanced in the sense that there are a lot of other things I'd rather be doing with my spell slots. My only issue with the orb spells is that they are Conjuration spells and NOT Evocation. Seriously, thats absurd. I second this.
BW0222 02-25-07, 03:02 PM	FrostHammer, I'm in an argument with someone who thinks that Orb of Fire and its siblings are overpowered spells. How can I convince him that this is not the case? There are plenty of spells better suited to kill things at high levels, especially spells that don'trely on damage, but he doesn't seem to get that. Don't. The more you argue that it isn't broken, the more others will think it is. As a DM, the more someone "whines" for something not in the PHB, the more I suspect that it is broken. If it wasn't so powerful, why wouldn't you just say "Fine, I'll pick something else." and be done with it? Why is it worth spending so much time arguing with someone if it isn't that good? Persumably folks take on spells come from personal experience. They've seen the spells in actions and a character defeated too many encounters using that spell. There is nothing you can do to persuade him otherwise... other than playing in a campaign and demonstrating that the spell isn't broken. Of course, he isn't willing to spend months of his time on such an experiment. So, the easy way... walk away and pick another spell.
FrostHammer 02-25-07, 06:32 PM	He's not my DM, so he has no control ove rmy spell selection.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-25-07, 07:09 PM	Some people just can't be convinced. The trick with damage is that while you are using a limited resource, your spells/day to deal it out he isn't. He can swing that sword of his all day long and all night long. You'll eventually run out. However your probably throwing around more of it... or at greater rangers. I'd recommend using a subtle way to fight. Use things like cause fear, or phantasmal killer, Evards black tentacles if your in a particularly bad mood. Use magic in ways that the fighter can't his sword for. And if you really want to make him feel special, buff him. That bull's strength and stone skin go a long way for him. Personally I'd agree with him that the orbs are "broken" ;). Then let him convince your DM that they are so, and then offer to take the higher ground and swap them for something better. But thats just me.
FrostHammer 02-25-07, 08:18 PM	hehe, but that'd also involve me swapping out ALL of my feats :D since Imy entire build is focused on milking the modt out of Disintegrate and Orb.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-26-07, 01:54 AM	hehe, but that'd also involve me swapping out ALL of my feats :D since Imy entire build is focused on milking the modt out of Disintegrate and Orb. ???
starfire311 02-26-07, 08:26 AM	??? my guess is he is some kind of Ray specced caster.
Bopple 02-26-07, 09:15 AM	It's not really overpowered. Top tier damage spell, at best. Gah, how fantastic. But on the other hand, it's just absurd. Mundane big ball of force? And a conjuration spell? WTF? And it gets rid of a good ole iconic fantasy feature - mage helpless against AMF and golem(well, at least directly). It saddens me.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-26-07, 11:33 AM	my guess is he is some kind of Ray specced caster. Prolly. I'm currently playing an arcane trickster. Uses rays to apply sneak attack while invisible. However I'm not bothering with the orbs. Maybe orb of force, for those hard to reach golems. The concept is that she was a Cyrian special opt during the war. After the day of morning she is broken and has lost all hope in humanity. Now she drifts, doing whatever she can to protect the weak for sickos as she calls them. However good and eveil don't really matter to her, so she'll punish wrong doers simmiliar to the methods used by the punisher.
FrostHammer 02-27-07, 02:47 AM	Orbs are NOT Rays though. I'm not even sure if Weapon Focus (Ray) would help with orb of Fire, for example.
Flan 02-27-07, 03:50 AM	The only thing about them that doesn't scream "OMG THIS IS THE BEST SPELL EVER" is that they're 1 level too high for lesser metamagic rods to work on them so you need to spend about 80k for the middle rods to turn them into no-save no resist 90+7d6 damage. 90+7d6 won't 1-shot an "overpowering" CR mob at level 15, so you might actually have to rely on the other members of the party to finish that final boss mob off for you before it gets an action. Or you can use a second spell (what a waste, 2 spells in 1 combat) if you have the 75k rod of quicken to finish it off. At 15th level why use low level slots though? Twinspell + sudden empower + maxmize rod for 180+14d6 is 229 average no-save, no SR. Good enough to auto-kill most CR 20 mobs. Not bad for a level 15. Add a quickend + maximize rod for an additional 90+7d6 is 270, 343 total (average). That will auto-slay a lot of the demon lords and devil lord aspects with CRs in the low 20s. Pretty wimpy spell, I can see how damage spells like this are useless. Polymorph is far superior.
FrostHammer 02-27-07, 04:13 AM	Or you can use a second spell (what a waste, 2 spells in 1 combat) if you have the 75k rod of quicken to finish it off. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic... I'd happily blow 2 spells per combat to off a very dangerous opponent.
Novabomb 02-27-07, 01:51 PM	Orbs are NOT Rays though. I'm not even sure if Weapon Focus (Ray) would help with orb of Fire, for example. It wouldnt, but that doesn't matter, cause you don't take weapon focus(ray) anymore. You take weapon focus (ranged touch) see complete arcane for details.
Flan 02-27-07, 02:13 PM	Why take focus? You can take improved crit to give you a 10% chance for double damage instead of 5%, but there are much better ways to spend two feats. The +1 to hit isn't a big deal, if something is hard to hit, 1 more to hit won't make a huge difference. If something is really hard to hit at that point you might want to have the druid or cleric toss some low-level summons via a quicken and a maximize to surround (7 monters + wizard) the mob, order them to aid-another the wizard, that will give the wizard +14 aid to hit and +2 flanking, so +16 on the touch-attack.
Cold Napalm 02-27-07, 04:11 PM	The only thing about them that doesn't scream "OMG THIS IS THE BEST SPELL EVER" is that they're 1 level too high for lesser metamagic rods to work on them so you need to spend about 80k for the middle rods to turn them into no-save no resist 90+7d6 damage. 90+7d6 won't 1-shot an "overpowering" CR mob at level 15, so you might actually have to rely on the other members of the party to finish that final boss mob off for you before it gets an action. Or you can use a second spell (what a waste, 2 spells in 1 combat) if you have the 75k rod of quicken to finish it off. At 15th level why use low level slots though? Twinspell + sudden empower + maxmize rod for 180+14d6 is 229 average no-save, no SR. Good enough to auto-kill most CR 20 mobs. Not bad for a level 15. Add a quickend + maximize rod for an additional 90+7d6 is 270, 343 total (average). That will auto-slay a lot of the demon lords and devil lord aspects with CRs in the low 20s. Pretty wimpy spell, I can see how damage spells like this are useless. Polymorph is far superior. You see the thing is that thats is a lot of investment in gold and feats. You know how much damage a fighter can put out if he had 155k in his weapon(s) and 15 levels?!? 343 damage a round is PIDDLY compared to what he can do. The fighter isn't weak because they can't do as much damage as the other classes, they are weak because ALL they can do is damage. By basically allocating all your resources to do that 343 damage a round your basically ending up worse then the fighter. So WHY?!?
lastknightleft 02-27-07, 04:50 PM	Orb spells, in a balanced spell system, would be overpowered, because they ignore SR and that's virtually unheard of. why do they ignore SR that doesn't make sense
Cold Napalm 02-27-07, 04:56 PM	why do they ignore SR that doesn't make sense because they are instant conjuration...so they are non magical. Yeah yeah it makes no sense but somebody at wizards has a conjuration fetish.
FrostHammer 02-27-07, 05:22 PM	By basically allocating all your resources to do that 343 damage a round your basically ending up worse then the fighter. So WHY?!? Because I find not being the MOST optimial mage is more fun? being a blaster sorc isn't optimized at all, but I think it can be fun, especialyl witht he right personality to roleplay.
Flan 02-27-07, 06:00 PM	You see the thing is that thats is a lot of investment in gold and feats. You know how much damage a fighter can put out if he had 155k in his weapon(s) and 15 levels?!? 343 damage a round is PIDDLY compared to what he can do. LOL. To start with at level 15 155k is well within the expected wealth of a PC, so there is nothing special there. Secondly 343 damage/round is not piddly at level 15 for a fighter. It's definetly not piddly when the dragon you're fighting is 70 feet in the air and has a 40 AC. The fighter isn't weak because they can't do as much damage as the other classes, they are weak because ALL they can do is damage. By basically allocating all your resources to do that 343 damage a round your basically ending up worse then the fighter. So WHY?!? All what resources? Last I checked a 15th level wizard has more than 2 spell slots. A wizard could rape a good half-dozen encounters in under a minute and teleport off home for some tea as a 21st level wizard.
FrostHammer 02-27-07, 07:01 PM	Napalm may be referring to uber charge builds that can do thousands of damage per round. Boosts of flying can take care of flying enemies I guess.
Flan 02-27-07, 07:25 PM	Napalm may be referring to uber charge builds that can do thousands of damage per round. Hard to fit thousands of damage in at level 15 with expected wealth. +5 brilliant sword is 162k, Tome +5 is 137.5k. Also boots of haste and winged boots only go so far and add another 30k+ on. It's very expensive for a fighter to overcome defences like flight, DR, high AC, range, auras etc. while wizards get it for free with massive damage at range via touch attacks with no save.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-27-07, 07:34 PM	You see the thing is that thats is a lot of investment in gold and feats. You know how much damage a fighter can put out if he had 155k in his weapon(s) and 15 levels?!? 343 damage a round is PIDDLY compared to what he can do. The fighter isn't weak because they can't do as much damage as the other classes, they are weak because ALL they can do is damage. By basically allocating all your resources to do that 343 damage a round your basically ending up worse then the fighter. So WHY?!? Do uyou mind sharing this build?
FrostHammer 02-27-07, 08:11 PM	Well the build is definitely doable at level 18, I believe, since that's when you can take that one Tome of Battle manuever to let you Full attack after the Charge. Not sure how to do it before then, unless the magic item that allows it is cheap enough for a level 15 to afford. In any case, the bare bones is a standard Shock Trooper, Leap attack build. Use all your feats to optimize that charge so you can Power Attack as much as you can. With boots of haste, 5 attacks using souped-up PA bonuses can really hurt.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-28-07, 01:54 AM	The problem with that is that charging is situational. A spell caster can fire off spells as long as they have them. How often can a fighter charge?
the_narrator 02-28-07, 02:37 AM	As long as a Fighter has enough space he can charge at worst every other round (charge, move back, charge, move back). At best, he could charge every round, given enough of a movement speed.
FrostHammer 02-28-07, 02:51 AM	Well there IS terrain to take into account, but given an item for him to fly, and another item for Freedom of Movement, he could do it pretty consistently...as long as he has enough room. Of course a Spellcaster is more versatile and more powerful. I'd be the last person to argue against that. It doesn't mean that the Orb spell itself is overpowering (and I can only do it so many times a day. With all that metamagic, I'm using some high level spell slots)