Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JamesC 09-23-07, 12:28 AM	Well, I'm a wizard and the other player I'm talking about is the cleric in our group. As a first-time wizard player, I was pretty careful with what spells to prepare for our first game tonight. I could only prepare 3 0-level spells and 4 1st-level spells, after all. I didn't prepare any "blasting" spells like magic missile (except for a Burning hands spell because it could hit multiple targets at a time) because multiple people on this site suggested to get mostly spells from other schools because anyone could do more damage than me (i.e. Fighter with a 2-handed greatsword) so I should leave the damage up to them. So we played and I cast these spells over our play session: sleep (big one), burning hands, mage armor on myself, and daze and using my crossbow to deal damage when there wasn't much of a threat (+4 to attack with crossbow and 1d8 damage isn't bad). The DM asks me why I didn't prepare any magic missiles and I told him I didn't need to because it doesn't do much damage compared to the other group members' melee damage (rogue, fighter, cleric that's focused on melee combat). The bossy player says "oh my god, are you stupid? Why don't you have magic missile prepared? That's the spell I think every wizard should have!" So I explain to him that I thought it wasn't as useful as other spells and he keeps telling me that I should rethink my spell selection next time. Also, every time I shot at an enemy with my bow to whittle down a remaining enemy or two, he would say "Why aren't you casting spells? You're a wizard for crying out loud!". I tried to explain to him that I didn't have any spells that would be useful in killing this one lone enemy faster and again he brought up the magic missile by saying "If you had magic missile we would have killed it by now!". After the game, he says "So...rethinkin' your spell list now?" I told him "No, because this is my character and I'll play how I want to play." And he says "You're just going to gimp yourself if you do that." I tell him, "I don't tell you how to play your cleric, though." He says "Yeah, but cleric is simple. You need help." What should I do about this player's bossy behavior? Probably telling him about his problem upfront would be the best choice but how would I word it right to get my point across? Also, if anyone has experience with wizards, could you tell me if they are right about preparing more damage spells or would it be just as effective to prepare other spells with a bit of blasting spells? EDIT: This bossy player has been saying stuff like this to me for a long time in D&D games (and in everything else) so this is something I'll be addressing that I want to put an end to so I'll need the right words to tell him to back off. Thanks for any replies.
Mejdrich 09-23-07, 12:50 AM	I'm surprised he wasn't impressed by Sleep. That usually takes them down fast, at early levels. After the game, he says "So...rethinkin' your spell list now?" I told him "No, because this is my character and I'll play how I want to play." And he says "You're just going to gimp yourself if you do that." I tell him, "I don't tell you how to play your cleric, though." Sounds like you're dealing with him just fine. Tell him if to play a wizard next time, if he loves Magic Missile so much. Or tell him to keep it IC. Ask the DM to require a Arcane Knowledge roll for him to know about Magic Missile. ;)
Montyhaul 09-23-07, 01:09 AM	...The same way you'd deal with any other bossy person, forcefully. It sounds like you're on the right track, shut him down whenever it comes up, or he'll be giving you grief every time you add new spells to the list. It's your character,m and it sounds like you're doing great holding your own on the battlefield. I would make a running joke of it; and if I happened to find a scroll of magic missile, would immediately sell it for the GP in front of him. ho ho ho :)
Fireclave 09-23-07, 01:14 AM	You're right, he's wrong. It's that simple. Your bossy player doesn't know how playing a low-level primary caster works. The fact that he complains about you not casting spells every time you use your crossbow, instead of wasting your precious few spell slots, proves that. The only thing he is right about is that you should have magic missile. He's wrong about you needing to have it prepared (for reasons you're already aware of), but it is one of the most reliable 1st level offensive options that probably every wizard should in their spellbook eventually. Just keep doing what you're already doing. Maybe one day he'll see the light. Tell him if to play a wizard next time, if he loves Magic Missile so much. Indeed.
JamesC 09-23-07, 01:16 AM	Yeah, I guess I should just tell him what I've been telling him and if it gets more out-of-hand, just sit him down and tell him straight into his face "I don't like what you are doing and it isn't making the game fun for me and please stop". That or just threaten to leave the group because of him. =) I'm not a confrontation person by nature so it isn't that easy for me but I'll definitely have to if he keeps it up. =(
JamesC 09-23-07, 01:20 AM	The only thing he is right about is that you should have magic missile. He's wrong about you needing to have it prepared (for reasons you're already aware of), but it is one of the most reliable 1st level offensive options that probably every wizard should in their spellbook eventually. Yeah, I have magic missile in my spellbook but I won't have it prepared very much because other people can do more damage than 1d4 (even my crossbow does 1d8 --- though it can miss.) and there are more useful spells than magic missile even for pure damage (fireball? burning hands?) Am I on the right track here?
darkneolink 09-23-07, 01:27 AM	If he boss you about not preparing mm everytime he wants to do anthing but to cast cure _____ wounds (and I mean anything from trying to talk with an NPC to attacking an enemy) tell him "you should be only use cure spells because you're a cleric. Because that the only thing I think a cleric should make" after a couple of times (or when he says anything to complain about you telling him how to play a cleric) tell him that is the same way you feel about him telling you how to play your wizard mm is only for "I really have to hit" situations... and instead of fire ball prepare "scorching ray" (spelling?)
JamesC 09-23-07, 01:30 AM	Yeah, that's a good idea. I'll do that if he doesn't get my message the first time around. I am always open to suggestions to make my character more optimized, but if someone tries to *tell* me to do something, that doesn't fly with me. That being said, is there some truth to what this bossy player is saying? Would it actually be better to prepare more "blasting" spells early on in my wizard's life or is my approach equally useful?
Novem 09-23-07, 01:36 AM	If he keeps doing that, use sleep on him. That should teach him a lesson. At later levels, if he continues to boss you around, use Battlefield control powers such as wall of X to trap him and make him useless, just to show him what a real Wizard looks like.
Fireclave 09-23-07, 01:55 AM	As darkneolink said, magic missile is primarily for when you simply have to hit something. The damage cap is not that bad actually, but it grows about half as fast as other damaging spells. But depending on the situation, in can be more ideal than casting fireball or scorching ray. Being a force attack, Magic missile is hard to resist and can hit incorporeal creatures, and his rather decent when Enhanced. And since it auto-hits, it's one of the best weapons against foes with high touch-AC (rogues and monks especially), or against foes who are low on HP and you want to finish off their . It's a nice, general/back-up offensive spell if you don't know what to expect. Between Scorching Ray and Fireball, both have their merits. You're more likely to deal more damage with Scorching Ray because ranged touch attacks are usually very easy to hit, the damage cap is higher, and there's no reflex save for half damage (or no damage with Evasion). However, Fireball is more likely to do mass collateral damage (can be good or bad), damage multiple opponents, eliminate dense crowds of low-level mooks, and my favorite part, is long range. As far as the PH goes, there aren't that many offensive long range area spells.
Serrin 09-23-07, 01:56 AM	Prepare magic missile in all your spell slots. When he tells you to use magic missile, cast it at him every round until you're dead. Alternatively, tell him he's playing his own character like a moron, and that he should be using a crossbow instead of meleeing/casting. Being bossy is forgivable. Being bossy and wrong isn't. Blasting is the least useful thing a caster can do. You get your first save-or-loses at level 1, why bother with magic 1d4+1 piece of crap? And if you manage to sleep him, go for a weapon with x4 crit, coup de gras and laugh. No, really, tell him to read the book, and if he still disagrees, tell him to play more wizards. He's wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. LogicNinja wrote what could easily be the best wizard guide currently in circulation, and he doesn't mention a single blasting spell from core besides disintegrate.
prong999 09-23-07, 02:06 AM	It sounds like a lot of the others who have posted have given you good advice. I'll just throw in a couple of pennies: You could try to reason with him. Point out that your sleep spell can affect 4 HD of monsters, and neutralize them immediately, save the party a lot of risk/damage. Which in turn will help the cleric conserve his heal spells, etc. If the bossy player is reasonable, and smart enough to follow the math, you should be able to convince him to leave you alone. [I realize that the bossy player being reasonable is an unlikely assumption, but I like ot give people benefit of the doubt.] :P
darkneolink 09-23-07, 02:07 AM	just remember that scorching ray is a lvl 2 spell and fireball is a level 3 spell so you could have both if you want (I wouldn't recomend it... my DM sended us a pirohydra and I had primary fire-based spells)
NecroticBanana 09-23-07, 02:33 AM	yea playing a cleric may be "easy" crunch wise...your reserching spells...when is the last time he tried to preach his faith or even made a stop at a church other than to get healed? sounds like a hack and slasher to me, i applaude you on your ability to play your wizard as you see fit. i had the smae thing happen to me once, i played a fighter armed with only a shortsword, i got alot of guff over it, but nothing else seemed to fit my "theme". it aint about getting the most powerful weapon all the time.
Fireclave 09-23-07, 03:15 AM	just remember that scorching ray is a lvl 2 spell and fireball is a level 3 spell so you could have both if you want (I wouldn't recomend it... my DM sended us a pirohydra and I had primary fire-based spells) To that end, I recommend Scintilating Sphere over Fireball. It's exactly the same as Fireball in every way except it does electric damage.
DrMorganes 09-23-07, 08:47 AM	Yeah, that's a good idea. I'll do that if he doesn't get my message the first time around. I am always open to suggestions to make my character more optimized, but if someone tries to *tell* me to do something, that doesn't fly with me. That being said, is there some truth to what this bossy player is saying? Would it actually be better to prepare more "blasting" spells early on in my wizard's life or is my approach equally useful? You've already answered that question. At low levels, direct damage spells are among the least useful spells in your arsenal. Things like Sleep and Color Spray are far more useful, for reasons you've already posted. That single Magic Missile won't reliably take down an orc on its own until your reach Level 5 (when the average damage of 3 missiles exceeds a typical orc's HP). Sleep, as noted, can take down up to four at Wizard Level 1 (and the orc's racial -2 to Will Saves means it most often WILL). If you truly want to show this guy a thing or two about wizards, eschew Evocations (aka "the school of direct damage") as often as possible. Don't actually go the specialist route; the loss of versatility is rarely worth that extra spell slot in my opinion. Learn as many spells as you can, just don't prepare many evocations. MM makes sense once most of your other Level 1 spells have minimal effectiveness. Take a look at the Level 1 wizard spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm). Spells like Enlarge Person, Magic Weapon, Animate Rope (Trasmutation school), Cause Fear, Ray of Enfeeblement (Necromancy), Color Spray (Illusion), Sleep - and Hypnotism to a lesser degree - (Enchantment), True Strike (Divination), Summon Monster I, Grease, and Obscuring Mist (Conjuration) are all arguably more useful combat spells for a low-level wizard than Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, or Burning Hands. In short: tell this loudmouth cleric to get bent. You're doing fine!
Khadmus 09-23-07, 01:41 PM	o-0 A bossy cleric...who is bossing around a wizard...brings back memories. The thing is, I was the cleric in my story :weep:. I got fixed the way they're telling you to fix him. This might not work (you should probably debate with him first) well [aka the relationship collapses], but it's something. EDIT: oops, didn't see your edit. Well, can't help there.
Drag0nUL 09-23-07, 01:43 PM	He is right about the Magic Missile stuff. Every wizard should prepare at least 1 magic missile or better have a wand (if possible). This spell is auto-hit, does force damage(and there is no such thing as force resistance) and it is only stopped by SR. But not at level 1. 3.5 average damage is a waste of a spell slot. Burning hands is a waste of a spell slot too. An average of 2.5 damage Reflex for half. If you want an AOE spell you are much better off with color spray. And btw., wizard and blaster are 2 notions that usually don't mix. A psion or sorcerer can outdamage you anytime. When I play a wizard I usually specialize and ban evocation(apart from contingency no other really useful effects; for the few blasting neeed a wizard has conjuration is usually enough) and necromancy(not so useful spells unless you are heavily into undead; the only stuff I regret losing are Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee; The fear and fatigue spells, although nice can be pretty easily duplicated with other battlefield control spells). As far as I can tell, you are playing your wizard pretty well, apart from some minor tweaks.
Salla 09-23-07, 02:14 PM	Magic Missile only really comes into its own around level 5 or 7. Battlefield control, save-or-lose, and debuffs are indeed far, FAR better than blasting. Your next 1st level spell should be Ray of Enfeeblement, for example, and I'd also recommend Color Spray. At any rate, tell him, to his face, that you will play your character in the manner you see fit. You don't see your character as a blaster, and thus you will not play him as a blaster. (Do you use the retraining rules from PHB2? Become a specialist and dump evocation, perhaps.)
navar100 09-23-07, 02:15 PM	Reminds me of my college 2E dayds when two players yelled at me and literally stopped being my friends because my cleric would cast spells other than Cure Light Wounds and even more horrific, swung my quarterstaff in combat even though I was a cleric and not a fighter. Prepare Magic Missile. Cast it at the cleric. Say "Oops". When you are high enough level, learn Explosive Runes. Give cleric a note. "Sorry, just to spite you, I will never, ever prepare Magic Missile. However, I did prepare Explosive Runes today." Boom! Seriously, you are handling it alright. Keep telling the cleric player to "shut up". The DM should be telling him to "shut up" too. Heck, when the cleric player prepared his spells, the DM should play his deity, "No, I want you to have these spells today, and if you don't like it, you won't have any spells at all." The DM then gives the cleric player a spell list he prepares.
Sunic_Flames 09-23-07, 03:54 PM	Get right up in his face. There yet? Now, burst out into uncontrollable laughter. Let's put this into perspective. If for some reason you really wanted to, you could have yourself doing 2d8-3d8 with a 1st level spell at level 1. You'd still be better off casting sleep or color spray because one enemy is going to be ganged up on and killed in 1 round, and if more than one at least one will fail the save against what is basically a save or die. Optimized blasting < unoptimized core spells.
Horseshoe_Hermit 09-23-07, 03:59 PM	The best way to respond to someone who is baiting you like that, is to simply answer all of his objections directly, to his face, almost naive in your disregard for the insulting nature of the attack. This sort of person doesn't expect you to simply take what he says at face value, and is usually left with nothing to say. The naivety of simply replying to all of his statements in a matter-of-fact tone is very disarming; you really can't continue mocking such a person. Exemplis gratis, I encounter someone. This person, for whatever reason, decides to exclaim: "Are you gay?" My response? First, I stop what I'm doing, turn calmly to face him. I make eye contact and time my response as though I were reacting to someone asking me if I'd enjoy some tea. I then say "... no, I'm not." See how that absolutely ends the conversation right there? Without becoming physical, or just childishly belligerent, you just can't force a mocking session against someone who doesn't offer anything to the mocker. However, the eye contact *is* important. It's extremely important. Otherwise you will appear as though you are receding from the attacks... "mentally cringing" I call it.
RealSorceror 09-23-07, 04:44 PM	Just to add to what everyone else said, the Wizard is not a blaster. You're playing it the way it should be played. Wizards have few spells per day, and they can't afford to blast every goblin that comes along. You'd quickly run out of spells, and then you'd be pretty useless for the rest of the encounter. Buffs, combat control, and utility is the Wizard's ideal thing. Now, a Sorceror without Magic Missile would be retarded. But a Wizard can get along just fine
Lamune the Brave 09-24-07, 12:41 AM	Exemplis gratis, I encounter someone. This person, for whatever reason, decides to exclaim: "Are you gay?" My response? "... no, I'm not." I personally like answering that one with "Hmmn? Bend over... we'll find out." 'course, I'm the type that enjoys a little conflict from time to time.
Salla 09-24-07, 12:50 AM	I personally like answering that one with "Hmmn? Bend over... we'll find out." 'course, I'm the type that enjoys a little conflict from time to time. I usually say 'ask my wife', but I'm like that.
SiuiS 09-24-07, 01:07 AM	Kind of funny, this whole thing. People are taking several things for granted. In a cooperative fight, sleep, colorspray, and the like work wonders. Crossbow, too. The thing is, if there is a simple mix up... Well, let me put it this way. If you don't prepare any attack spells, thinking the rest of the party will do more damage each than you, but at the same time, the rest of the party leaves enemies wide open for you to cast at 'em... Well, total damage done was far less than optimal, aye? With this cleric here, a simple "Look, I understand you aren't capable of fighting well, but my blowing things up will only coddle you. A sleep, and then letting you build your courage killing them will serve you better in the long run. Now, run along, and go play 'worship' or something, the adults are busy" should work to either A) cause him to stop giving you guff, or B) cause him to try and kill you. Not a very good idea, but with a wizard, I'd be all over it. Odds are at low levels, you could take 'im ;) Now, about the root of the problem (which, oddly enough, is magic missle)... You are a wizard, yes? Make a couple (or, better yet, lets say five to ten) scrolls of magic missle, first level. Costs like, 1 XP each, and you can even have him cough up some of the dough to fund it "Since you want me to have magic missle so badly, it's in both of our best interests, yes?". You could use this to annoy him (get in a fight where all the scrolls are used, and you barely damage anything compared to the crossbow, and then ask him for more funds), but you should probably save it for when distracting an opponent would be handy. Also, one of my favorite things about a wizard- Versatility. If you have been doing nothing too strenuous for the last hour, and have not cast any spells in the last eight hours, you can sit down, whip out the ol' spellbook, and start to prepare. So, if you know that on the other side fo the door is a heavily armored kobold, have the rest of the party take guard and prepare something appropriate (quite possiby, magic missle). If the other side fo the door holds a goblin horde, sleep would be good, as well as a loaded crossbow and a handy dagger. You are at your best when prepared, hence the 'prepared spellcaster'. Hope this helps somewhat; I personally use spite to show people the error of their ways, but your opening post makes you seem nicer than that.
Vaelan 09-24-07, 04:43 AM	I have found that people tend to take things more seriously when they're written on something that you could use to bludgeon them, even if you don't make anything resembling a move to bludgeon them. As such, I would recommend writing a pertinent message on a whiffle bat. Not only does it serve to save you the time required to actually talk to the idiot, but you can also use it to physically condition the offender should it prove necessary. The simple fact that you went to the trouble of procuring a whiffle bat and writing on it is generally enough to convince people that you're serious.
draco1119 09-24-07, 04:53 AM	The answer is simple: The Folding Chair of Salvation (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=759737)
Salora 09-24-07, 04:53 AM	Just tell him that in all his infinate knowledge and understanding he has somehow failed to notice that you are a wizard and not a sorcerer. Then ask him at what level he gets his Special Mount.
DracoPhoenix 09-24-07, 09:50 AM	I'm in favour of explaining it in terms he will understand - as mentioned above, memorise nothing but MM and burn through them at the first opportunity. Then after the 4th MM, when you switch to the crossbow (with no AC), and he starts to call you a moron, pull out the PHB and show him your L1 spells per day. Ask him to count how many MM's you've fired off, comparing it to the number in the pretty little table. (Optionally : Tell him you may be a moron, but you at least you can count.) It might be worth tracking how many spells he's casting. If he thinks wizards have infinite spells, he might think the same for clerics.
Phrennzy 09-24-07, 10:21 AM	Yeah, I guess I should just tell him what I've been telling him and if it gets more out-of-hand, just sit him down and tell him straight into his face "I don't like what you are doing and it isn't making the game fun for me and please stop". That or just threaten to leave the group because of him. =) I'm not a confrontation person by nature so it isn't that easy for me but I'll definitely have to if he keeps it up. =( You have already given yourself the best advice. Remember it and use it. Good job.
Threefists 09-24-07, 10:43 AM	If he keeps doing that, use sleep on him. That should teach him a lesson. At later levels, if he continues to boss you around, use Battlefield control powers such as wall of X to trap him and make him useless, just to show him what a real Wizard looks like. Beat me to it....:P Ah, the arrogance of a Cleric....AC of a Fighter, decent Melee and Spells that don't fail because of armor. God I hate/love them..... I've had this problem (With a Druid more often than not), telling me to cast Magic Missile because it's a never-miss spell, rather than Melf's Acid Arrow or Burning Hands. After 'accidentally' catching him in my Sleep spell (Get the DM to help you with that. Call it a 'spell mishap' and have it happen after a particularly annoying spell [haha] of nagging), then try to cast 'Flaming Hands' over the top of the snoring Druid at the enemy that's going to coup de grace the sleeping PC. When he/she/it wakes up with no eyebrows and a SPF +100 suntan, the Druid (or in your case, Cleric) is either gonna get the message or is gonna have to be told, in no uncertain terms, that if he/she/it tells you how to cast spells again, you're going to show him/her/it every last attack spell you have memorized by applying them to their face at point blank range. Getting on the right side of the Wrath of God (DM) is handy at this stage.
Cain_Northson 09-24-07, 10:48 AM	I remember you doing that. Mathew never again commented on your spell list after you burned his eyebrows off...hehehe. IMHO, if the Player keeps this up, get a bull-horn and every time he says it, jam the horn in his face and let 'er rip. When the inevitable profanity-laden "WTF" comes your way, point out that his constant harping at you is just as frustrating, annoying and pointless as the bull-horn to the face was. Mind you, at this stage I'd either be looking for another group or telling the DM to pick whom he'd prefer to bring the Pizza, 'cause that's not D&D, that's not even Min-Maxing, that's just bullying what that Cleric is doing to you.
Hack and Smasher 09-24-07, 05:01 PM	Rude and wrong, just kick them in crotch everytime they do it.
Drag0nUL 09-24-07, 05:20 PM	I don't think it is such a good idea to try any in-game action on the cleric. (Un)fortunately(I play clerics;) ) a low level clerics has a bit more means to quickly dispatch a wizard if need be than viceversa. None of your damage spells can kill him outright and a low level cleric usually has among the best will saves in the game for that level, second only to druid(for druids you can dump even more stats to put into wisdom).
MrCustomer 09-24-07, 05:36 PM	Do this, next time there is a battle, say Loudly "As requested by the all knowing cleric, I cast MAGIC MISSILE, wow I shall now destroy my enemy with 1d4+1 damage, Wow I rolled a 1, thats a total of 2. WoW 2 Damage, feel my wrath WUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!" Then declare, "I open my spell book and tear out the pages for magic Missile, I crumple it up into a tight ball, dip it in a flask of oil, stab it on the end of my cross bow and light it on fire then shoot my enemy with the most practical use of Magic Missile ever cast"
happy_fuzzy 09-24-07, 08:44 PM	The reason you don't prepare magic missile to kill stuff at low lvls is why people don't play warmages to kill stuff ^^
FoulQ 09-24-07, 09:23 PM	NONONO you all have it wrong, show him the char op boards and show how terribly wrong he is. :rofl:
Ayra 09-25-07, 09:24 AM	It's a game that you play for fun, not as a job. Therefore you play your character in a fun way. Next to all the technical evidence you can present him from this thread, you can also explain how you don't like it how others decide what he should do. I would be careful of your choice of words though. He offered you help, albeit in a rude and disrespectful manner. Tell him that you appreciate the help he's offering, but that you don't need it. Then proceed to tell him how: casting sleep offers a tactical advantage casting color spray does the same the damage dealt by magic missile is less than that of your crossbow enemies on average get more damage from your bow (you can even use a calculator to calculate average hit chances on some monsters.) your spell slots aren't infinite and are much better spent on other spells for reasons mentioned above. Besides that, if a horde of goblins is attacking you one or two sleep spells will neutralize them. One or two magic-missiles will merely anger them. Anyway follow your own advice and make clear that you're not into his way of giving advice, even though you appreciate getting advice as long as it's not forced upon you.
Varia 09-25-07, 11:31 AM	Yeah, that's a good idea. I'll do that if he doesn't get my message the first time around. I am always open to suggestions to make my character more optimized, but if someone tries to *tell* me to do something, that doesn't fly with me. That being said, is there some truth to what this bossy player is saying? Would it actually be better to prepare more "blasting" spells early on in my wizard's life or is my approach equally useful? No, there's no truth to what he's saying except under certain specific circumstances (eg- youre going up against a boss known to be immune/virtually immune to your melee guys, or somesuch), but those exceptions should be obvious. Under normal conditions sleeps and maybe a burning hands are where its at. Color Spray, and Summon Monster may also have their place, depending on your fighting style and the types of enemies you face. Magic missile is just for when you MUST hit, or MUST burn a specific target down fast, but not really till lvl 3 at the earliest usually. I'd say youre doing fine. You dont get many spells at lvl 1, so conserving them for when they'll do the most good is proper and wise. Meanwhile, a crossbow bolt to the face often amuses. :)
Puggins 09-25-07, 12:25 PM	Sorry, thread drailment here- what makes people think that Sorcerers are by definition blasters? They can do battlefield control almost as well as wizards can (better if they use the PHB2 sorcerer option), and their DD is not any more effective than wizard DD. Also, I can see Magic Missile as a mid-range attack spell at 7th to 10th level, but after that? You want to use a standard action to deal 5d4+5 damage to someone that might have SR? No thanks. Maybe some quickened versions might be okay... but then again, I'd rather have ray of enfeeblement quickened. A wizard can do DD quite well and very usefully, IF he understands the limits of his abilities. Single-Target DD will never reliably come close to outdamaging a well-built melee class (especially if the TOB is in use), but Area DD will very reliably outdamage melee characters by quite a bit if you hit 3+ targets and if you use neat little tricks like sudden maximize. But magic missile? Meh.
ruff0126 09-25-07, 01:02 PM	I guess you have never seen a tricked out magic missle mage. Still a ton of versatility but you can really pound it in to people whenever you want.
Drag0nUL 09-25-07, 01:51 PM	Sorry, thread drailment here- what makes people think that Sorcerers are by definition blasters? They can do battlefield control almost as well as wizards can (better if they use the PHB2 sorcerer option), and their DD is not any more effective than wizard DD. I don't think anyone claims that sorcerers are just blasters and nothing else. What most people that have posted here so far claim is that, unlike wizards, sorcerers can be blasters. And you say magic missile is not very useful. Try fighting a wight monk or the like and you might reconsider. That guy was just a pain...somewhere...to defeat. He had ambushed my wizard and a rogue(we were conducting some shady deals behind the back of the party LG paladin and cleric) on a dark alley. He had good touch AC (bye-bye ray spells), evasion(no more fireball) was immune to mind affecting and rolled incredibly well vs. my single prepared disintegrate. So that left me with my good ol' wand of magic missile (and fly, although that meant the rogue died unfortunately).
Serrin 09-25-07, 02:50 PM	I don't think anyone claims that sorcerers are just blasters and nothing else. What most people that have posted here so far claim is that, unlike wizards, sorcerers can be blasters. And you say magic missile is not very useful. Try fighting a wight monk or the like and you might reconsider. That guy was just a pain...somewhere...to defeat. He had ambushed my wizard and a rogue(we were conducting some shady deals behind the back of the party LG paladin and cleric) on a dark alley. He had good touch AC (bye-bye ray spells), evasion(no more fireball) was immune to mind affecting and rolled incredibly well vs. my single prepared disintegrate. So that left me with my good ol' wand of magic missile (and fly, although that meant the rogue died unfortunately). So what you're saying is that disintegrate is a very useful spell.
Anskiere1331 09-25-07, 02:50 PM	Personally I'd include him in the area of effect for the spells you're using. OOPS. then look at him, smile and say, "aren't you glad I didn't use magic missile?"
HermitIX 09-25-07, 03:04 PM	Magic Missile is one of those spells that almost every mage should have. It’s a force effect so it can his ghosts and similar when the melee types can’t, and although it doesn’t do much damage at low levels bad guys don’t have that many hit points. That said it IS your character and you can play it however you want. You don’t tell him what to do with his character he shouldn’t tell you what to do with yours. If you feel the need to justify yourself (you don’t have to) tell him you are trying to build an Elementalist Wizard where most or all of your attack spells are elemental. Force isn’t an element.
Puggins 09-25-07, 05:53 PM	I don't think anyone claims that sorcerers are just blasters and nothing else. What most people that have posted here so far claim is that, unlike wizards, sorcerers can be blasters. You just repeated the fallacy. Nothing in the make-up of Sorcerers makes them inherently better at blasting than wizards. In fact, I'd argue that the wizard is the better blaster, since he doesn't need an alternate class ability to access quickened nukes, which is the ultimate goal of the Pure blaster: throw out two real strikes each turn. The wizard and the sorcerer are only subtly different in 3.5. The sorcerer gets some versatility in spell usage and gets more spells per day, which is less of an advantage than it seems. The wizard gets superior attribute dependency, spell list versatility, superior metamagic performance and bonus feats. Though you can argue that one is better than the other, there's no real difference in role performance in my mind- wizards make better blasters not because their advantages have some synergy with that role; they make better blasters because they make better arcane casters as a whole. (That is, of course, if you think wizards are better. If you think sorcerers are better then just switch up the references). And you say magic missile is not very useful. Try fighting a wight monk or the like and you might reconsider. That guy was just a pain...somewhere...to defeat. He had ambushed my wizard and a rogue(we were conducting some shady deals behind the back of the party LG paladin and cleric) on a dark alley. He had good touch AC (bye-bye ray spells), evasion(no more fireball) was immune to mind affecting and rolled incredibly well vs. my single prepared disintegrate. So that left me with my good ol' wand of magic missile (and fly, although that meant the rogue died unfortunately). Well, heck. I'm sure I can come up with half a dozen scenerios that would make tenser's floating disc an absolute lifesaver. That doesn't mean I'm going to keep one memorized, though. Same deal with magic missile. In your specific case, Wouldn't it have made sense to follow up with a backup scroll of disintegrate? Probably woulda saved the Rogue's life. That said, I'm not such a magic missile hater that I can't see the use in a wand of 9th CL magic missiles. Not to expensive and some decent firepower for a wand.
FoulQ 09-25-07, 08:33 PM	I don't think anyone claims that sorcerers are just blasters and nothing else. What most people that have posted here so far claim is that, unlike wizards, sorcerers can be blasters. And you say magic missile is not very useful. Try fighting a wight monk or the like and you might reconsider. That guy was just a pain...somewhere...to defeat. He had ambushed my wizard and a rogue(we were conducting some shady deals behind the back of the party LG paladin and cleric) on a dark alley. He had good touch AC (bye-bye ray spells), evasion(no more fireball) was immune to mind affecting and rolled incredibly well vs. my single prepared disintegrate. So that left me with my good ol' wand of magic missile (and fly, although that meant the rogue died unfortunately). Alright, so I suppose that magic missile is a decent spell for a damage spell. :rolleyes: So I suppose there is a 1% chance where magic missile will be extremely useful. At 1st level, that 1% might be even lower, when sleep and similar spells are at...oh...well...95%, perhaps? :rofl: Evoke is not good
Tarpan_God 09-25-07, 10:08 PM	If your cleric friend still doesn't listen to you after reasoned discussion, maybe he'll listen to an iconic character? Mialee here feels that: "Magic Missle is useless. Useless!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwp-lDSN3Qo&mode=related&search=) (@2:40) Then again, she seems obsessed with displacer beasts... And did anyone notice Mialee is a lot prettier on camera than she appears in the books? :love: Silliness aside, I bet your bossy cleric is going to back off as he gets more used to the game. A lot of new players have this issue. If he's still trying to dictate your actions in a year, well, that's when you should really worry. PS- Edit: Thanks for the tip, Vaelan! :D
Vaelan 09-25-07, 10:39 PM	Sorry, thread drailment here- what makes people think that Sorcerers are by definition blasters? The same thing that makes people such as the Cleric in this thread think that Wizards are, by definition, blasters. Ignorance. PS- I wish I knew how to post links and disguise them as regular text to make my posts look cleaner... I wish someone would tell me how to do that... Just put the text in between the two tags.
Tytalus 09-25-07, 10:53 PM	I guess you have never seen a tricked out magic missle mage. Still a ton of versatility but you can really pound it in to people whenever you want. Not that it helps the OP. At the first few levels, there's no tricking out; you need PrCs and feats for that.
JamesC 09-25-07, 11:13 PM	(This is the OP if you don't remember) Yeah, I talked to the cleric and he understood that he was being unfair and he says he won't try to tell me what to do. But I will be buying a wand of magic missile for times when I do need to kill someone with damage reduction and stuff like that quickly. =) Thanks guys.
Sunic_Flames 09-26-07, 08:37 AM	Magic Missile at higher levels? Fell Drain that :censored:. 5 negative levels, no save and auto hit? Yes please.
Puggins 09-26-07, 12:54 PM	Magic Missile at higher levels? Fell Drain that :censored:. 5 negative levels, no save and auto hit? Yes please. Fell Drain is nice, but it doesn't work that way. You can't hit one guy with all five missiles and have him lose five levels. it's each target of the spell, not each target of a missile. So five individual targets will gain one negative level each, two targets hit by two missiles will gain one negative level each, and one target hit by all five will gain one negative level. I've always thought of fell drain as more of a NPC tool than a PC tool, since I'd rather just blast the guy with an empowered ray of enfeeblement than make him lose one lousy level.
Sunic_Flames 09-26-07, 01:00 PM	Fell Drain is nice, but it doesn't work that way. Ok, we return you to your regularly scheduled Magic Missile sucks performance.
MrCustomer 09-26-07, 01:27 PM	In later levels when you have powerful spells, like Scorching Ray, FireBall, etc, and your level 1 spells are well, pointless, then Magic Missile becomes a very useful and effective level 1 spell, especially since you really won't use any other level 1 spell at this point. Spells like Sleep and Color Spray are good spells, but will become uneffective in later levels where most creatures you face will resist them or are beyond their HD limits. Magic Missile remains effective where other spells become obsolete. In fact other then memming unseen servant to do your laundry for you, there really isn't any other level 1 spell that will be useful. But at the lower levels, Magic Missile is a very weak spell. 1d4+1 is on average only 2.5 damage. Anyways you only have so many spells to cast, it's best to save them for something worth casting on, use your crossbow instead, heck at level 1 it is possible to kill things in one shot with a crossbow, critical hit for x3 damage potential of max 24 damage kills alot of critters. MM has max 5 damage, average 2.5. Crossbow has average 4.5 damage, even only hitting every second shot it is better then MM.
NightHawkFalconis 09-26-07, 02:26 PM	I ran out of patience for reading all these posts, so pardon me if I hit on anything that's already been stated six times :D Anyway, you are absolutely right in this case; wizards do NOT need magic missile. Granted, it IS a highly reliable source of damage, and has good range for 1st level. The problem is, with its low damage and your lack of a million spell slots (re: sorcerer), there really isn't any reason to memorize it. I myself am playing a generalist wizard who has no magic missile. I'm level 4 right now, and the offensive spells in my book are: persistent blade (level 1, from SC) and scorching ray. I don't even memorize scorching ray, and I've cast the blade once. It didn't even overcome SR. So I've dealt an infinite number of damage points through my bow than with spells. But I've farked over more enemies with my spells than any one other member has killed. I'm even seriously considering pimping out my bow; with my current build, I'll never lose caster levels but will have a BAB of 13 at level 20. And I have a stupidly high Dex and Str and Con for a wizard. If you really want to be an asshat about it, once you hit level 3, take web and glitterdust as your two free spells. Or web and ray of stupidity (takes care of animal enemies in one shot). "Accidentally" catch him in web's radius. And, once you get level 3 spells, don't bother with fireball; take scintillating sphere. Once you have your enemies in your web, use that instead; they still can't move, and you don't burn away the webs for them ^^
Fitz10019 09-26-07, 05:13 PM	Confessions of a bossy player: I'm not an old-school "red box" gamer. I arrived at tabletop dice-rolling in-person D&D after many years of playing Baldur's Gate and it's sequels. So, right from the start, I developed the bad habit of deciding what every member of the party would do at each instance of battle. Even today after a year of LG, I usually have a very flawed opinion of what everyone else should be doing, and I struggle to keep my thoughts to myself. Is there a 12-step program or something?
Mock26 09-26-07, 05:21 PM	Have some fun and throw it back in his face. For one adventure memorize nothing but magic missile. Then, cast them all as quickly as you can, and this means also targetting creatures who are being attacked by others. After all, you don't know that they will hit and you need to make sure that they are dead. For the rest of the adventure don't do anything, at all. That includes using your crossbow in battle. When he asks why you aren't doing anything, and he will, you can say that you took his advice, memorized magic missile spells, and that you used them all up in the first battle. And, if you are lucky, a situation will then arise when the rest of the group will wish you had memorized some other spell. You can just shrug your shoulders, point to the cleric, and say, "Blame him. He's the one who said I should only memorize magic missile spells."
Voran 09-26-07, 07:55 PM	Three step plan. Step 1)Grab handful of said player's underpants from behind. Step 2)Hoist Step 3)Profit Btw, I commend you on taking more tactically useful spells, especially when you're at a lower level. Its more economical for you to invest in a wand of <insert blast spell> than load up too much on direct fire spells when you're a lowbie. My opinion of course, but I've found at low levels, debuffs/holds/sleeps/etc work very well. As you noted your role is not so much DPS dealer, you're there to make things super annoying and unpleasant for your party's targets and let them buzzsaw them. Until you get your own tacnuke powers.
Guardian1 09-27-07, 11:22 PM	No, there's no truth to what he's saying except under certain specific circumstances (eg- youre going up against a boss known to be immune/virtually immune to your melee guys, or somesuch), but those exceptions should be obvious. Under normal conditions sleeps and maybe a burning hands are where its at. Color Spray, and Summon Monster may also have their place, depending on your fighting style and the types of enemies you face. Magic missile is just for when you MUST hit, or MUST burn a specific target down fast, but not really till lvl 3 at the earliest usually. I'd say youre doing fine. You dont get many spells at lvl 1, so conserving them for when they'll do the most good is proper and wise. Meanwhile, a crossbow bolt to the face often amuses. :) I utterly agree with this sentiment. In my experiences, the only time I have dictated a spell selection to the party arcane spellcaster was because our characters knew there was a troll in the area, so we needed a low-level spell that did fire damage. That said, JamesC, if you don't tell this cleric's player how to run their character, they have no right to do the same to you. After all, it's your character. Input on spells is nice, but the survival of the party and the success of the mission is more important than keeping bossy players happy. My advice is to look this player in the face, tell them how you feel (in a calm voice. Most important), and tell them the above message. If they're a good person and player, they'll stop. If not, they won't. In any case, you've done your job. As the comedian Ron White would say-"Ya can't fix stupid."
Sunic_Flames 09-28-07, 02:47 PM	Only problem with Sleep? 1 round action. Good luck using it against any intelligent foe.
Serrin 09-28-07, 10:26 PM	Only problem with Sleep? 1 round action. Good luck using it against any intelligent foe. You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect. Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Area: One or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst In other words, no.
Sunic_Flames 09-29-07, 11:24 AM	And this stops them from interrupting mid cast how? Smart foe: Stop that spell! *attacks wizard*
Serrin 09-29-07, 05:44 PM	And this stops them from interrupting mid cast how? Smart foe: Stop that spell! *attacks wizard* Oh, silly me, I was assuming a cooperative and tactically adept party was with the wizard. Also, a lot of foes can't charge 100 feet, even if they do have a straight line without any adverse terrain effects or other people. At those levels, if you're getting hit and interrupted, you should be more worried about the dying than the loss of the spell.
Sunic_Flames 09-29-07, 06:15 PM	Oh, silly me, I was assuming a cooperative and tactically adept party was with the wizard. Also, a lot of foes can't charge 100 feet, even if they do have a straight line without any adverse terrain effects or other people. At those levels, if you're getting hit and interrupted, you should be more worried about the dying than the loss of the spell. And what's stopping someone from loosing an arrow his way? Either way point is 1 round action spells leave you way too open. Furthermore, why are you relying so heavily on others, that chances are you just met? What kinda moron relies on the unreliable (until proven otherwise)? :P
Serrin 09-29-07, 06:28 PM	And what's stopping someone from loosing an arrow his way? Either way point is 1 round action spells leave you way too open. Furthermore, why are you relying so heavily on others, that chances are you just met? What kinda moron relies on the unreliable (until proven otherwise)? :P The exact same things, like cover, line of sight, range, and generally low attack bonuses, that stop the exact same archer from readying an action consisting of "when the guy with the robe does anything, shoot him with arrows" which would interrupt casting zomg magic missle at teh darkness. By the time that you're losing iterative attacks from readying attacks, you're too high to be effectively color sprayed, sleeped, et cetera.