Post/Author/DateTime	Post
grok_grok 12-17-06, 03:14 PM	Anyone ever play a game were the player goes to far with everything they play. The Orc Barbarian that slaughters for no reason, the Paladin that up holds the law to the point were even the most noble law offical would seem like a rogue. You know the people that are just to extreme to function in any situation. I have one of these players, his character is never laid back, always action. He has no clue when to steal or kill when he plays a C/N or when to let stuff slide when he plays L/G. Its always all or nothing, never in the middle. I need help on how to make this guy kinda settle down. Ive tried talking about this with the group and him but it doesnt seem to be working. Is there any suggestions short of killing his characters that I could do?
YamiSouru 12-17-06, 03:21 PM	killing his charactor will do nothing at all. so dont even think about resorting to this. If he is playinga paladin right now. have him encounter a famous paladin known for upholding the law, and have said paladin show him that with all things there is a needed level of moderation. But mostly talk to him again and ask him to play a charactor who isnt the most extreme. like a laid back warlock or something *shrugs*
CryoSilver 12-17-06, 04:27 PM	Tell the player to stop being a douche. Just come out and say it: "Steve, you're being an obnoxious prick and it's annoying. Stop being a douche."
Nightbluejh 12-17-06, 05:04 PM	I would try showing him articels out of dragon, or other books and publications on how to play a certain alignment or about what to do in certain situations when playing said class, alignment or charecter type. If none of these suggestions work (in thiz thread). I would resort to actually stoping play when he does these things pulling him aside and saying, "look, this is what I'm talking about, and it just isn't necassary." Killing his char. and letting him draw up a new one obviously isn't working...It maybe that you have to resort to penalizing him; where you create situations in which he confronts negative level situations, or loss of magical items or abilites for behaving in such ways.
Dei 12-17-06, 05:43 PM	Firstly, though I guess it's a bit of a silly question, are you rewarding him for this behaviour with, say, roleplaying exp or something. If so, stop, immediately. Also, acting like this in a normal society would come with ramifications, it should be no different in the game world. A paladin that always upholds the law to the point of absurdity will eventually do something that will call down the wrath of those higher up than him. It could even lead to excommunication from the order and loss of powers in an extreme circumstance, i.e. cutting off the hand of a thief (a traditional punishment in many societies) who stole a loaf of bread to feed his starving family would be construed far and wide as an evil act. In the case of the half orc, well the local militia will probably come looking for him in fairly short order and at high levels it will be more serious people who come looking, the Knights of the Purple Dragon, local nobles who don't appreciate him killing their tax payers, temples of Helm, Pelor, etc, all of them will start to track him down. Things like this will let you highlight to the player precisely what he's doing wrong and you can even mention this to him out of game. "These guys would never have shown up if you hadn't behaved like a twit on occasions x, y and z." Make these more than a chance for him to gain more exp through bulldozing through extra encounters though, in the case of an evil player being confronted it would be done with overwhelming force so as to ensure that he stood no chance of escape or in the case of the paladin character make it people who he is forced to obey by law that condemn his actions. You could even arrange it so that his party members don't back him up in these situations (afterall, it's "his" fault).
Vestigial_Thumb 12-17-06, 05:54 PM	Tell the player to stop being a douche. Just come out and say it: "Steve, you're being an obnoxious prick and it's annoying. Stop being a douche." I agree with this. Also, add my personal touch: a threatening letter to his family.
CryoSilver 12-17-06, 05:58 PM	That's nicer than my personal touch, which is a folding chair to the face. I also suggest you call him Steve, no matter what his real name is. Just because.
Dontan 12-17-06, 06:02 PM	Don't forget to send a lock of his hair in the letter. Oh, and be sure to write it in blood... (For extra fun, use a finger instead of hair.)
RikkiTikki 12-17-06, 07:44 PM	I haven't quite encountered the type of players who act this way, but I have a suggestion: Put The Law On His Ass. Have you considered that it might be illegal to run around slaughtering sh*t? Don't you think that a paladin that you described will **** several people off? Drop the results of his actions on him. :P
Merryadocc 12-17-06, 09:17 PM	Argh, I find these types of players too disruptive, and sometimes they are getting some sick pleasure out of their behaviour, or feel validated in acting the way they do. The old "I'm a Paladin and I'm Lawfull Good, I can do what ever I want cos I am obviously following the path my god laid out for me", or "I'm higher level and stronger then them, what are they gonna do about it" (also aplies to the barbarians). This is when I show them the Monster Manual and OMG the majority of the stuff in there is neutral, so walking around hacking the heads off everything is obviously being evil. Getting these types of Paladins in trouble with their superiors or the law they think they are representing can do the trick too. My favourite is to have them become Lawfull Evil with out them knowing, and changing their Detect Evil to Detect Non-good without them knowing. I let them keep all their other class features as some evil god like Hextor or Cyric is now granting them their abilities withot their full knowledge. My validation behind this is a really good article in a Dungeon that was talking about motivations for characters/NPC's that aren't intenetionally evil, along with some of the lords of 2nd ED Ravenloft and how one was a "Paladin" during the day who would associate with the party and talk about fighting the evil of the area with rather uncompromising feircness, and would at night become the evil best she was questing to destroy without her knowing it. Barbarians.... hmmm... "I am Chaotic I can do what ever I want" characters are annoying. All the people that I know in real life that "rage" often see prison time cos their judgement is rather screwed. Maybe force some roleplaying on your barbarian where he can only rage when he gets hit for a certain amount of damage or greater and/or his health drops below a certain point. Alot of characters I see that can rage usually have pitifully low Will saves, have the the BBEG charm him and set him on the party. I once charmed a level 10 barbarian with a CR3 Kobold, then was amused to watch him get cut down by the party. I have an important feature I look for in prospectie roleplayers these days, THEY MUST HAVE READ AT LEAST ONE FANTASY NOVEL!!! Square block in square hole it's all about phat lewt type players need to go back to their MMORPG's or other computer games. Ask him what his favourite character from a book is and get him to try and play it (having seen the movie doesn't count). I may be starting to :rant: a bit. So I will leave you all to your Dungeons & :dragon: 's. May all your :dice: roll :cheer: !
CryoSilver 12-17-06, 09:26 PM	I stand by my "Don't be a dick" houserule for this reason. I also stand by the "If you are a dick, you pay for the pizza" rule.
PiedmonSama 12-17-06, 09:51 PM	Yeah, if talking to him isn't working, perhaps you aren't being direct enough. If your other players are becoming frustrated, have them with you to voice their thoughts. Perhaps he'll be more inclined to listen if he understands that his behavior is grating the entire group.
CryoSilver 12-17-06, 09:58 PM	I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife. A dull, rusty knife. A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Lakaniss 12-17-06, 11:42 PM	I have to say a word on that to. I agree has a player sometime it can be annoying to have someone like this that sometime cause trouble. But the question is not his that paladin overgoing whit his lawfull good alignment by showing lawfull good characters that are symbol of goods their non good moves? The awnser come whit the roleplay of the character, the alignment system is not perfect, there is a LARGE difference between possible roleplays of a same alignment. If your paladin is to good and play the law part like and absolute and do not want to make any compromise it only show us that he understand that the needs do not justify the means. Therefore, letting something even small pass is not good, but does not mean you are not LG. For the CE barbarian, if he character his vile and love to kill things, it is a perfect roleplay to kill everything that moves. The problem here his not the character, it is the PARTY. That is why you do not mix Exalted and Vile in a party who isnt all Good or all Evil. Neutral dont fit whit those at all either. Has a Dm, it is a responsability to make sure the party WILL WORK and make sure it does work together in game. Therefore if you have a party whit background and roleplays that fit, does character pose no threat, otherwise you never should have accepted his concept of character and tells him he should do something else to fit the party.
grok_grok 12-18-06, 12:36 AM	I see that most of you realize the situation im in. Although I forgot to mention that me and this particular player switch as DM every once and a while. So by punishing his Paladin for being overwhelmingly lawful/good would cause him to find reasons to punish my character, although mine is a little more secret about his misdeeds. I think I will ask him to tone it down a bit with his paladin and to stop the mindless massacres with his C/N orc (yeah I know it really shouldn't be C/N) and if he continues I will have to send some law enforcers after the orc and have some great holy symbol tell his paladin to tone it down. Thanks for the advice.
Optimator 12-18-06, 12:46 AM	Tell the player to stop being a douche. Just come out and say it: "Steve, you're being an obnoxious prick and it's annoying. Stop being a douche." That's for true.
CipherTheory 12-18-06, 01:13 AM	Get him to play a T/N character. If nothing else, it'll give him pause to wonder how to be extreme in neutrality. I suggest what's already been suggested: talk to him out of game. Make sure he knows that if he continues to do this, there will be in-game consequences. Back it up if necessary. If he says you're picking on his characters, give cold, logical reasons why retrobution should be raining down upon him from all angles. If all else fails, tell him you're not 'picking up his option' when it comes time to select players for your next campaign. Extreme, but possibly necessary. Edit: n/m the last suggestion. If he's also your DM I guess it wouldn't work.
Reversefigure4 12-18-06, 01:38 AM	Get him to play a T/N character. If nothing else, it'll give him pause to wonder how to be extreme in neutrality. No, sir, no! A extreme True Neutral is a balance keeper to the level of utter ridiculousness. One so dedicated to keeping the balance between Good and Evil games would go "I've killed an enemy, so now I have to kill an ally to balance it out. Sorry."
Salla 12-18-06, 01:51 AM	No, sir, no! A extreme True Neutral is a balance keeper to the level of utter ridiculousness. One so dedicated to keeping the balance between Good and Evil games would go "I've killed an enemy, so now I have to kill an ally to balance it out. Sorry." Either that, or he does a whole lot of extreme nothing. :)
Gilean 12-18-06, 09:01 AM	A extreme True Neutral is a balance keeper to the level of utter ridiculousness. One so dedicated to keeping the balance between Good and Evil games would go "I've killed an enemy, so now I have to kill an ally to balance it out. Sorry."That doesn't actually do anything for balance, FYI. Anyway. Talking to the player is the second option. First is thinking why you don't enjoy that players' play. Can turn it into a strength, something that will make gamign better for everyone? If yes, do it.
grok_grok 12-19-06, 12:00 AM	First is thinking why you don't enjoy that players' play. Can turn it into a strength, something that will make gamign better for everyone? If yes, do it. I guess we could always make some extreme L/G characters to adventure with him, unfortunatly half my party, including myself, have a hard time playing a lawful character. We actually tried a campaign around a barbaric adventuring party where everyone was all about raids, and massacres and the like. It was really good until we were meet by 100+ guards trying to brings us in for crimes against humanity. A brutal end to a brutal party. Anyways, the whole orc barbarain thign is dealt with, now its just the crazy extreme L/G pally.
Starchaserva 12-19-06, 03:49 AM	I tend to think that player's take the classes and their stereotypes way too literally. Not all paladins are so law abiding that you'd have to be a saint to pass his judgement. Dragonbait from one of the old D&D novels was a Paladin, and he was simply a good person who protected his friends and fought evil when it threatened good people. Not all barbarians are mindless killing machines. Wulfgar isn't. You don't seem him going into a rage inside a tavern and killing everyone just because someone tripped and knocked over his ale. You have to educate the player in the idea of cliche stereotype and original character. If he insists, with the dreaded "but thats how THIS character acts" or "it's all part of the character" simply ask him to either tone it down, play a different character, or find a new game.
Sleepwalker13666 12-19-06, 04:20 AM	Also if talking with your player about it does'nt work you can tell your group to take my groups approach to it. My group just tends to show thier dislike towards the extreme player in gameplay, for example we would'nt help a massacreing barbarian in a fight, and we would'nt heal him when he was hurt. We deal with in party thieves by killing them, LG characters in the party are alaways conviently away. The annoying "true nuetral must maintain balance is all aspects" will wake up and find the party has left him behind. The justice obsessed paladin will be forced to leave the group because somebody will change to an evil alignment and the group decides to side with him instead of the pally.
KurenaiYami 12-19-06, 05:05 AM	That's nicer than my personal touch, which is a folding chair to the face. I also suggest you call him Steve, no matter what his real name is. Just because. "Dammit Steve, seriously, what the crap." I like it. It has a ring to it. From now on, all who oppose me will be known as Steve!
mkill 12-19-06, 05:27 AM	Before giving hints about how to handle this, I have a question. Do you have a clue *why* your player does this? I think there are two types of the "obnoxious paladin": A One is a player who just really wants to roleplay it right and consequently, and he doesn't care about other players and whether they have fun. B The other is a player that doesn't have much to say in real life, and he enjoys being in power for a change. (note that this type will claim to be type A, which makes it harder to spot them) Of course, both need a slightly different approach to fix this. The gentle approach is to show that paladin his boundaries in game. Yes, he has a sword, yes, he has divine might, but local authorities won't necessarily like an obnoxious paladin running around in their domain preaching the law in their place. Be prepared to play a local baron or judge who confronts the paladin if he steps over his authority. I've seen DMs getting into a screaming duel with obnoxious paladins over that. But if you win that power challenge, it will tone down your paladin a lot. Promise. And it does not even look like you as DM did it, the local authorities did. Of course, your paladin will also have a direct authority above him, in the role of church officials or higher-ranking members of his paladin order. You can use that to your advantage. Flesh out at least one of them as a character. Have this one show up and make the paladin report (and kiss some feet) if he causes trouble. Hopefully, this will keep the "i just play it out" type in check. For the "I want to use my power to say no"-type of players, who like the paladin to push others around... Ignore him. Example: The other players plan a night raid on a house. Paladin wants to stop them. Order the player to sit aside and shut up, and play out the night raid with the other players. Believe me, the "you're being a dick so you're out of the adventure and others have the fun" punishment is the most effective you have as the DM. It beats "I can kill your character" by 10:1.
zzakk2to2 12-19-06, 12:54 PM	a fun ingame thing to do is have his god personaly manifest and berate him for being such a hard@**
danielinthewolvesden 12-19-06, 02:13 PM	This is an OOC problem.There is NO, repeat NO way of fixing this (or any other OOC problem) IC. You are already getting into a dialog with him, continue it.
zzakk2to2 12-19-06, 06:01 PM	This is an OOC problem.There is NO, repeat NO way of fixing this (or any other OOC problem) IC. You are already getting into a dialog with him, continue it. i submit your right but my idea would be funny
KurenaiYami 12-20-06, 02:08 AM	i submit your right but my idea would be funny You submit his right...TO PARTY?!?! :dancin: :dancin: :dancin: But yeah. If he's taking all his in game actions to the extremes, do it back. Act just as rediculously with EVERY NPC YOU HAVE. Once he sees how idiotic it is, maybe he'll get it. Better yet, good ol' fashioned conditioning. Every time he does this, slap him. He will then associate what he is doing with pain, and it will no longer be fun to him.
mkill 12-20-06, 09:36 AM	This is an OOC problem.There is NO, repeat NO way of fixing this (or any other OOC problem) IC. Yes. But while you can't make him a better player just by in-game actions, you still need a proper way to react in-game. So, just make NPCs react like real people if somebody is an obnoxious prick. Some people will yield, some people will ignore him and go away, and some people will tell him to shove it.
grok_grok 12-20-06, 10:57 AM	The Pally problem is done and over with, He was to good and was smited by the Blackgaurds of Hextor. The player now uses a rogue who is all about lieing, stealing, and cheating (all in game of course) and plays him very well. Only thing now is we have to have a high sense motive or fear of being pick pocketed, oh those rogues. :D
zzakk2to2 12-20-06, 02:46 PM	good job with no hard feelings. that was well done have a cookie :cookie: oops sorry its my dragons fault. bad dragon!:dragon:
Templetroll 12-21-06, 05:09 AM	I stand by my "Don't be a dick" houserule for this reason. I also stand by the "If you are a dick, you pay for the pizza" rule. Oh, now there's a reason to keep the player around! :D
Templetroll 12-21-06, 05:18 AM	The Pally problem is done and over with, He was to good and was smited by the Blackgaurds of Hextor. The player now uses a rogue who is all about lieing, stealing, and cheating (all in game of course) and plays him very well. Only thing now is we have to have a high sense motive or fear of being pick pocketed, oh those rogues. :D In character, :) "Steve, I cast fireballs and kill things by cooking them. He chops things with his axe until they are dead. You steal from us then we have to use our class skills on your douchebag self. Oh, and if you steal from the cleric then the next time you crawl over to him near death he will use the special Cause Wounds to kill you, too. K?" :D
grok_grok 12-21-06, 04:54 PM	In character, :) "Steve, I cast fireballs and kill things by cooking them. He chops things with his axe until they are dead. You steal from us then we have to use our class skills on your douchebag self. Oh, and if you steal from the cleric then the next time you crawl over to him near death he will use the special Cause Wounds to kill you, too. K?" :D No one is stupid enough to steal from their party unless they know they can take on the entire party. I love my saying though " You have 2 choices, steal for me or steal from me. If you steal for me I will not let harm come to you, you steal from me and I will steal the life force from your soul and make you a new member in my undead army, your choice" - Necros gotta love em
Solid_Saladin 12-21-06, 05:21 PM	My friends and I just started a campaign. The party (once it became a party) would consist of a dwarf fighter, a human monk, a half-elf ranger, and an elf rogue (me). The campaign starts in a tavern (how original). My rogue is sitting at a table doing card tricks for a little extra cash when the ranger approaches me. He is telling me how he wants to get a party together to challenge the local government (which is human and extrememly racsist against all non-humans). I say that it will cost him but I'm pretty much up for anything. After a few more rounds of dialogue the ranger heads into the bathroom. While the ranger is in the bathroom the dwarf, not taking any crap from the local human militia, punches a guard. The monk takes the dwarf's side because they were friends in game before the campaign started. The DM describes to the ranger (who is currently on the crapper), "You here a slight scuffle and some one cries out." The ranger immediately gets up rushes out of the bathroom and promptly fires an arrow directly into one of the three clergymen of the local faith who are sitting in the corner. When he defends his action he says "I was standing up for the dwarf." When I ask (out of character but I was flustered at the moment) how he knew what was going on and stating he just wouldn't come out of the bathroom firing arrows indiscriminately. He accused me for questioning the way he played his character. So the DM asks why he did that. He says he is just playing in character. The very next round the two 9th level Paladins who were with the clergymen (we were told their level after the encounter) rush up and clobber the 1st level ranger. Immediately after that happens he questions why my character didn't rush to save him and accused me of not playing in character. He is especially furious when I don't make any attempt to take his character to be rezzed. The monk and dwarf are in jail at this point so I'm the only one who could. I said my character didn't know him and I wouldn't risk my neck at the prospect of employment from someone who I clearly saw as crazy after he shot the clergyman. The rest of the session was ruined because we got into a 2.5 hour debate over alignment and how to play in character. The question I have is how is a DM supposed to deal with a character who acts in such a manner. Technically his character wouldn't know what was going on. Also, technically the DM can't say, "Your character can't do that because it makes no sense." He is playing in character but not In character. I've been DMing and playing for about 3 and 5years respectively. I'm compltely at a loss as to how to deal with a character this extreme who when he dies turns the session into a debate on why it is everyone else's fault that the session is ruined and the party remains broken. The player is a friend out of game so simply syaing f*** off is not an option here. Any suggestions?
CryoSilver 12-21-06, 06:51 PM	I don't know what is up with people not wanting to offend their friends. If my friends are being stupid, I'm not afraid to tell them so.
CryoSilver 12-21-06, 08:49 PM	Dealing With Steves: a Handy Guide (http://www.geocities.com/absolutecryogenic/dnd/steve.pdf)
RikkiTikki 12-21-06, 09:14 PM	Dealing With Steves: a Handy Guide (http://www.geocities.com/absolutecryogenic/dnd/steve.pdf) XD A *very* handy guide indeed, sir. If I had Adobe Acrobat, I would be able to read it. :D (Downloading now)
CryoSilver 12-21-06, 09:21 PM	Wow. I reached my data limit really fast. http://www.filefactory.com/file/e34270/ ^ Alternative link
Templetroll 12-21-06, 10:32 PM	I don't know what is up with people not wanting to offend their friends. If my friends are being stupid, I'm not afraid to tell them so. Always start off with polite with friends but if that doesn't work then something is wrong with the friend and friends don't let friends be Steve. ;)
CryoSilver 12-21-06, 10:33 PM	Ergo my guide
grok_grok 12-21-06, 10:52 PM	My friends and I just started a campaign. The party (once it became a party) would consist of a dwarf fighter, a human monk, a half-elf ranger, and an elf rogue (me). The campaign starts in a tavern (how original). My rogue is sitting at a table doing card tricks for a little extra cash when the ranger approaches me. He is telling me how he wants to get a party together to challenge the local government (which is human and extrememly racsist against all non-humans). I say that it will cost him but I'm pretty much up for anything. After a few more rounds of dialogue the ranger heads into the bathroom. While the ranger is in the bathroom the dwarf, not taking any crap from the local human militia, punches a guard. The monk takes the dwarf's side because they were friends in game before the campaign started. The DM describes to the ranger (who is currently on the crapper), "You here a slight scuffle and some one cries out." The ranger immediately gets up rushes out of the bathroom and promptly fires an arrow directly into one of the three clergymen of the local faith who are sitting in the corner. When he defends his action he says "I was standing up for the dwarf." When I ask (out of character but I was flustered at the moment) how he knew what was going on and stating he just wouldn't come out of the bathroom firing arrows indiscriminately. He accused me for questioning the way he played his character. So the DM asks why he did that. He says he is just playing in character. The very next round the two 9th level Paladins who were with the clergymen (we were told their level after the encounter) rush up and clobber the 1st level ranger. Immediately after that happens he questions why my character didn't rush to save him and accused me of not playing in character. He is especially furious when I don't make any attempt to take his character to be rezzed. The monk and dwarf are in jail at this point so I'm the only one who could. I said my character didn't know him and I wouldn't risk my neck at the prospect of employment from someone who I clearly saw as crazy after he shot the clergyman. The rest of the session was ruined because we got into a 2.5 hour debate over alignment and how to play in character. The question I have is how is a DM supposed to deal with a character who acts in such a manner. Technically his character wouldn't know what was going on. Also, technically the DM can't say, "Your character can't do that because it makes no sense." He is playing in character but not In character. I've been DMing and playing for about 3 and 5years respectively. I'm compltely at a loss as to how to deal with a character this extreme who when he dies turns the session into a debate on why it is everyone else's fault that the session is ruined and the party remains broken. The player is a friend out of game so simply syaing f*** off is not an option here. Any suggestions? You did the right in game tatic, by having some people come and slaughter him. If he asked you why just proclaim, "Steve, you just shot 3 clergymen who were just trying to have a relaxing night. It is completly reasonable that Paladins,who are friends of the church, would find this wrong and try and kill you. Finally, the dwarf and monk were fighting the guards, not the clergymen, check your targets next time." If he approaches the alignment question or how to play in character just say the following. " Your character may be f****ing retard about who he fights but mine knows how to pick his fights (hense the sneak attack feature) He just met your ranger in a bar who wants to overthrow the government, a task which is done with alot of planning, within a few minutes of meeting the damn ranger a fight breaks out and the ranger starts firing arrows, clearly this ranger doesn't know how to plan ****, So with that in mind defending a complete stranger who may or may not pay you for defending him goes against your character and pretty much everyones common sense."
Spec_Specter 12-22-06, 02:44 AM	who takes his bow and arrows to the bathroom anyways? :?
Guroth the Forsaken 12-22-06, 09:10 AM	Tell the player to stop being a douche. Just come out and say it: "Steve, you're being an obnoxious prick and it's annoying. Stop being a douche." Wow, many douchy Steves lately! Maybe WotC should make a Steve subforum!! :D
Frodo34x 12-22-06, 06:29 PM	"Kill him in his sleep. Then do something about hsi character". Seriously though, I'm not personally sure the best way to do these things. Is he extreme in real life? Is he the opposite. Perhaps he is quite shy and meek in real life, so being extreme in these games gives him a way to live out an alternative reality. Is there actually a problem with him playing extreme situations?
CryoSilver 12-22-06, 07:16 PM	Would there be a thread if it wasn't a problem?
High Octane 12-23-06, 10:32 AM	Would there be a thread if it wasn't a problem? You would be surprised.
someonelse812 12-23-06, 11:25 AM	suggest that he play a Rilmani, I dont think they have been updated for 3.5 though. I have the old plane scape book they are from. they are the physical embodiment of true neutral, an extreme player with an Rilmani would be an interesting PC to see.