Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrimsonPhoenix 06-28-04, 01:30 PM	I always play with a group of friends that live nearby. We have 2 campaigns running right now, and my friend's brother is trying to start another. He is being horribly restrictive on character creation, starting us with point buy 25 and not allowing anything outside the player's handbook, races or otherwise, unless pre-approved. The problem with this is that anything that doesn't suit him is not approved. I get the idea that he is DMing only for his own fun and is not allowing us to do anything fun for ourselves. I was kind of hoping to hear what people have to say about this so I can show him this thread in hopes of changing his mind. Keep in mind that this is a group of friends, not a weekly game run at a store. We are a lot more freestyle than most (I'm currently playing two dragons in the other campaigns, and I think my characters are the most "normal" of them all). The other characters are mostly standard races, but all have unique characteristics that make them fun, but sometimes quite "odd".
SmiloDan 06-28-04, 01:50 PM	Maybe he just wants to take a break from the freak show? I know when I run games, I'm usually pretty meat-and-potatoes with character creation. Maybe he plans on having a more normal type world, and having an Awakened half-fiend feral squid walk (crawl? swim?) into the pub would freak out a lot of people. Maybe his adventures would be ruined by some non-standard abilities. You can at least give it a shot.
Dauntless 06-28-04, 01:57 PM	Originally posted by CrimsonPhoenix He is being horribly restrictive on character creation, starting us with point buy 25 and not allowing anything outside the player's handbook, races or otherwise, unless pre-approved. Lemme get this straight... because he wants to use the STANDARD point buy... and because he wants to use the STANDARD core races... and because he isn't a fan of OPTIONAL material... That makes him horribly restrictive?
Derren S. 06-28-04, 01:58 PM	I see nothing wrong in only allowing PHB races (that should be the norm) and 25 point buy. And not allowing things which don't suit me as DM is also normal for me. I don't see where your problem is.
Beamup 06-28-04, 01:58 PM	He's not being unreasonable. There are quite a few good reasons for such an approach: - Wants to run a lower-powered campaign. - Is concerned about the exploitation possibilities inherent in non-core material. - Isn't fully familiar with very much non-core material (the DM really needs to know the material PCs are using at least as well as the players do). You are also not being unreasonable to feel that, for you, higher-powered stats and more material to work with are more fun. (I'm inferring this from your tone - please correct me if I'm wrong.) The best way to handle this is to sit down with him and say, "I feel that I would have more fun with your campaign if we had better stats and a wider selection of material to work with. Why have you chosen the restrictions you have?" or something along those lines. Explain to him why you want things one way. Let him explain to you why he wants things another way. See if you can come to a compromise or an understanding. You can also just give it a try and see how well he makes it work before passing judgement - but all in all, it's best to get concerns out into the open ASAP. At a minimum, give it a try while making sure he understands that you have these concerns, so you can both pay attention to the issue.
MrkGrismer 06-28-04, 03:54 PM	Don't dis a standard game until you give it a try. You might actually like it. (Take a Paladin! :D)
Stuntman 06-28-04, 04:34 PM	I do not find those conditions restrictive at all. However, I can understand why you may feel this way since by the sounds of it, you seem to be used to playing in a higher powered campaign. Playing in a lowered powered campaign without supplementary material makes things more interesting because when making your character, you have to decide what abilities you need to do without. It can be as much fun to play with fewer abilities than it is to play with more abilities. You have to thing of alternate ways of accomplishing your goals. You can approach it in two ways. You can just decide it would be no fun, let the DM know how you feel or not play. Alternatively, you can look upon this as a challenge as this is an environment with which you seem to have not had much experience. The game is balance for characters using the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) which is equivalent to the standard (25-point) point buy. You should be successful with any character you create. Everyone else is playing under the same conditions, so no one will be getting any advantage over anyone else. As a DM, I like to stick to the basic, core rules. Anything else, I like to at least look at it and see how it may affect my game. I do not want to put encounters in where an ability in some supplementary material makes it a cake walk when it should be difficult. It's not much fun for the players if they can easily go through the encounters. One last thing. It sounds like you have not even played a session yet. I would suggest you play a few sessions with an open mind first and see how the game goes. You will then know if his DM'ing style is compatible with your playing style. If you are unable or unwilling to make the adjustments and are not having fun, then you should definitely let the DM know.
Nick Soapdish 06-28-04, 05:23 PM	25 point buy is a bit low, at least for my tastes. I'd be more inclined to go with 28 or even 32. I don't see it as being restrictive though. And sticking just to the PHB isn't being "horribly restrictive" either. It's a bit tough to run a campaign that starts with the PCs having to rescue the princess from a goblin tribe when you've got a party of dragons. Frankly, there's a ton of stuff out there and it's tough to keep a handle on how to keep everything balanced when you're using a dozen different splat-books.
Thorak 06-28-04, 05:28 PM	Originally posted by CrimsonPhoenix We are a lot more freestyle than most (I'm currently playing two dragons in the other campaigns, and I think my characters are the most "normal" of them all). The other characters are mostly standard races, but all have unique characteristics that make them fun, but sometimes quite "odd". There's why he wants to limit you to standard-only stuff. When everyone has two templates and thirteen PrCs from 8 different books, there's no "wow" factor in introducing, say, a Drow Blackguard as a BBEG. What you consider 'horribly restrictive', I consider standard character creation. My DM might allow me to play, say, a Half-giant, or a Thri-kreen, but only if I can come up with a darn good character concept for it, and a reason for being. Same thing for classes. My next character's going to be a Soulknife, and that's about as weird as my group tends to get, even with me trying to pick a standard PHB race for him. If you need to be an Insectile Celestial Half-dragon with at least three PrCs to have fun, you need to realize that all that crap only distracts people from your character. People will remember him for being the weird glowing bug-dragon, but not for the emotional torment he feels, or the valiant deeds he's done, or any of that. Personally, I prefer people remembering how I played my characters, rather than what bits I stuck together to make them.
trapspringer 06-28-04, 05:38 PM	This is my kinda campaign. I get really tired of character who are non-humanoid in body structure. The main thing you gotta understand is that he is allowing you to check stuff with him. Break out your (apparantly vast) array of books and find stuff you can use with your human. I would reccomend UA for some non game wrecking stuff that can add some character to a character. If you are stuck using really and truly core stuff, just work on breaking the archetypes. A finess paladin, an expert, a dragon desciple monk, or even run a kobld!
danielinthewolvesden 06-28-04, 05:48 PM	Hmm. This is a tough one. On one hand, the posters here have made a good point- the parameters you listed really aren't that bad. OTOH, combining that with your concerns makes me a bit worried you might have a "control-phreak DM" on your hands. Ask about magic items & such. If he says he is going to run a "low magic campaign" on top of all that-:sad: :b: - then, yessireebob- you have a "control-phreak DM" on your hands.:rolleyes: :weep: :twitch: :thumbsdow
Jell_Moo 06-28-04, 08:17 PM	There isn't really anything wrong with a Core Only game. I think the problem is that you guys are used to a different style, and far more lenient rules. Playing a more grounded, standard game might actually be a breath of fresh air. I personally find 25 point buy a little low, but it isn't game breaking. If it bothers you too much, ask if you can do a Roll 4d6 and drop the lowest, sort of thing. I also don't see a problem with a low magic campaign. After a few moderate to high magic campaigns, it can be fun to get back to basics, as it were. If done by a good DM I find low magic campaigns to be a lot of fun.
StevenO 06-28-04, 09:08 PM	This is what a player should expect when starting a game. Everything above this is bonus material and you shouldn't be needed to play a fun game. Actually having a restrictive game would have everyone playing a specific character with no choices for race, class, or any of the other things that make a character fun and unique. Personally, I'd argue to use 28 point buy (RPGA standard I think) instead. You did say outside material could be used with approval so find some simpler material you'd like and run it by.
devinmdp 06-28-04, 09:32 PM	The fun of the game is in overcoming challenges and role playing together. Not in designing wiz-bang PCs and running through the test course like an experimental rocket plane. Learn to enjoy the game for what it is, not what PC you can heap stuff on. Devin
devinmdp 06-28-04, 09:35 PM	Also, what exactly is your burning character concept that you cannot seem to design using only core rules? As a person who grew up with 1st and 2nd edition D&D, even only using the core rules is like a breath of fresh air viz a viz flexibility. Want to take an expert knife fighter? Why do you need the Invisible Blade PrC? Just take a fighter and take weapon proficiency (dagger) and weapon specialization (dagger) and weapon finesse. Can't be a mystic theurge? Then multi-class as a cleric/wizard. Over all, your actual power level shouldn't matter, since a good DM is supposed to balance his encounters for the party. So what's the problem? Devin
Korhal IV 06-28-04, 09:38 PM	That's not terribly restrictive, IMO. There's an amazing amount of stuff within the core rules. Give it a shot. Daniel - considering what the original poster is probably used to, "low magic" may just mean "standard".
talast 06-28-04, 09:47 PM	has the guy ever DM'ed before? if not, maybe he wants to take it slow and ease his way into being a DM before he lets you all bring out the big guns. If so, maybe he wants to take a break from all your god characters and play something normal for a change. sometimes, having too much option can distract you, why not try to sky's the limit with just the "standard" stuff and see how far you can go. If you are use to killing everything within 50 mile radius with a mere thought, why not try to complish that with the "standard" stuff. when you succeeded, you could brag about it to your friends and show them you are the better player. and in the end, if you just can't live without having your big guns, then don't play, as you said there are 2 campaigns, it's not like you don't have anywhere to go if you quit this one, you still have another group to play with.
Edymnion 06-28-04, 10:39 PM	Gotta agree, he isn't being horribly restrictive, you are just accustomed to being able to get anything and everything you want. Give it a shot. You would be surprised how fun the game is when you play it correctly. When you have to actually choose between A & B, not find a way to get both A and B at the same time. Try this. Come up with a character concept. I don't mean "Half-Dragon Paladin of Bahamut with a Spiked Chain", that isn't a character concept, thats a build. A character concept is "Man who has been long entrenched in a battle of ethics, torn between their desire to destroy evil, and their vow not to take life". Then, figure out how this individual would try to acomplish these two goals, then last of all you figure out what kind of gear to give them. Create a PERSON, not just a character sheet. Your DM isn't being overly restrictive, it sounds to me like he's got a good game planned, and doesn't want it spoiled by a bunch of nonsense like "half-this half-that Uber-Barbarians with 9 differant PrC and +10 Vorpal sword-chucks". Good D&D has nothing to do with how many monsters you can kill, or how much damage you can do in a round. Good D&D has everything to do with roleplaying interesting characters and how they interact with the world. Aka, think of this as more of Lord of the Rings than it is a video game. You "win" by having fun, not by killing things.
Felonious Monk 06-29-04, 12:33 AM	Play a half-orc barbarian/bard who talks like a cross between Bob Dylan and Keith Richards. Play a paranoid Dwarven Evoker. (What's that?!? FOOM!) Play a human fighter... and play him as Vin Diesel in Hamlet. Or, take a stereotype: Gruff, clannish Dwarven Fighter Kleptomaniacal Halfling Rogue Insane Gnome Illusionist ... and milk it for all it's worth. Seven races times eleven classes is seventy-seven choices. Then you can start customizing. If you think the point-buy is underpowered, pick a class with a bunch of special abilities unrelated to attributes. Give the guy a shot.
edgelett 06-29-04, 12:44 AM	I agree with everyone here - give it a bash, there's nothing wrong with core rules. You might find you enjoy it. if you think the point buy is too low, try rolling dice instead!!
striderII 06-29-04, 12:46 AM	He is being horribly restrictive on character creation, starting us with point buy 25 and not allowing anything outside the player's handbook, races or otherwise, unless pre-approved. If that's restrictive, be glad I'm not your DM. Standard races. Standard classes. Done. None of this "you can use something outside of the PHB with approval". My answer is, almost always, "no". This is not a restrictive campaign - it is one using the Player's Handbook (remember that book? the one with the rules in it?) and few other things. I would say it's a fine campaign (barring any other information, that is - he could screw it up), with opportunity to play characters instead of half-dragon shade vampire lich monk/wizard/cleric/mystic theurge/hexblade/moron of doom. Or is your claim that the campaign is "restrictive" a joke? Ask about magic items & such. If he says he is going to run a "low magic campaign" on top of all that- - then, yessireebob- you have a "control-phreak DM" on your hands. What is the deal here? Honestly, what is it? Why is "low magic campaign" (apprently something bad) synonymous with "control freak DM" (which, whatever the hell that is, exactly, is also apparently bad)? Just curious if you could possibly define or clarify this statement. To the original poster: when you're done reading this thread, go back and re-read Edymnion's post. He's spot on with his points there. strider
Asmodai_00 06-29-04, 12:54 AM	+10 Vorpal sword-chucks :rofl:
danielinthewolvesden 06-29-04, 02:28 AM	Originally posted by striderII What is the deal here? Honestly, what is it? Why is "low magic campaign" (apprently something bad) synonymous with "control freak DM" (which, whatever the hell that is, exactly, is also apparently bad)? Just curious if you could possibly define or clarify this statement. "Control-freak DM's" are those who want the Players to have as little power & control as possible- and wants HIMSELF to control even small details of the PC's acts & lives. Often, he already knows what he wants to see, and the PC's can't do much about it. Railroading is endemic. "Low magic campaigns" are not bad- as such (assuming the DM understands how ECL is figured and why the PC wealth chart in the DMG is there- but most don't...) . It is just that extreme limitations on what the PC's have in the way of equiptment is yet another form of "control" such a DM can place on the Players/PC's. Based upon what the OP said- we could have a "control freak" DM here. There are several "danger" signs- OTOH, those are also signs of a perfectly good DM revolting against prior out of control craziness, or an inexperienced DM unsure of himself. Thus, I'd like to know more before "passing judgement".
rinagar 06-29-04, 02:53 AM	The bottom line really is that players need to be matched up with DMs and campaigns that suit them both. Some players enjoy lower-level campaigns, some don't. Some DMs can do fantastic things with goblins or kobolds and some can't wait to get to the uber liches and demigod level of play. It's a game. Its purpose is to provide fun. So find a DM that runs the type of campaign you like and enjoy. And if you want restrictive, come to my current campaign where I had to lobby for months for the DM to allow multiclassing AT ALL. He's requiring a lot of time (up to 6 months or so) of training with a mentor to do any switching even to classes that supposedly don't require any training such as sorcerer. My rogue was thinking of switching to sorc to add a little magic, but we've been playing for over a year and we've NEVER met a sorcerer in the campaign so I doubt I could find a mentor. It's a very low-magic campaign where the common folk freak out if you cast a light spell. My character was just arrested and sent to prison for 2 months for casting charm person (from a scroll) on the captain of the town guard. But this campaign is about roleplaying and we players enjoy the challenges and dilemmas that we face without needing to be loaded up with artifacts and super dragon characters. It's probably not for everyone, it's difficult and requires a lot of thinking...and we have fun.
Astanphaeus 06-29-04, 03:10 AM	Originally posted by CrimsonPhoenix He is being horribly restrictive on character creation, starting us with point buy 25 and not allowing anything outside the player's handbook, races or otherwise, unless pre-approved. The problem with this is that anything that doesn't suit him is not approved. ... Firstly, I never allow concepts that don't mesh with the campaign's theme and setting. If I'm running a cosmic, plane-hopping freakfest... by all means, play something weird. However, if I'm running a low fantasy campaign, or something heavily focused on a particular region, PC options will be limited accordingly. For example, if I said the campaign's going to be based in an urban setting, don't come to me with a druid. Secondly, a core game is hardly what I'd call "horribly restrictive". It's a default. Thirdly, he isn't even barring anything out of hand. He just wants pre-approval. That's perfectly reasonable. For a lot of DMs, it's par for the course. I get the idea that he is DMing only for his own fun and is not allowing us to do anything fun for ourselves. Sounds to me like he could just be aiming to run a much tighter and more atmospherically coherent game than what you're accustomed to. Maybe he doesn't like freakish cosmic stuff, or maybe he's tired of it. Maybe he wants to keep it simple and/or stick to what he knows. Maybe he's planning a political/intrigue scenario that's going to require the PCs to be somewhat socially acceptable. There's a lot of reasons why he could be keeping to a standard "out of the box" game... so I think you're going to have to supply more support for your suspicions. The "restrictions" alone don't really indicate anything. In fact, they're not really "restrictions" at all. ~ A.
preacher of nothing 06-29-04, 07:03 AM	Although it might be considered the beginning of a railroading experience, i sincerely doubt that your adventure won't be cool. I'm used to being restricted some PrC's by oneof my DM's. I once wanted my cleric to become an elemental archon, and he very calmly said: "Yes, and i want a Ferrarri......but i'm still driving that old **** parked outside....aren't i?" Hehe.....it was funnier then...anyway, i tend to approve with what DM's do, unless it's obviously some sort of violation of rules or just stupidity.
Elrana 06-29-04, 08:10 AM	Even in funked up games I often play core races and classes. Yes the half-dragon/half-celestial/ogre may be fun, but my gnomish paladin will have twice as many class levels, more hp, more feats and be getting the same XP to rise to far higher levels. That being said we sometimes run funky race games where core races are banned just to see how it goes. I highly recommend the half-dragon/centaur monk build! Generally in our 'serious' campaigns we stick to core races or MM +1 or +2 LA races. Drow, Planetouched and so on. It keeps the game within serious boundaries, you can walk into the average pub without tearing the doorway out and it is, in as much as a fantasy game needs to be, realistic. We create our stats in various ways, ranging from 4d6 drop the lowest, to 4d6 reroll 1s and 2s, drop the lowest, to all 8s, roll 7d6 and assign whole dice. Due to this we often end up with characters in the game with varying levels of stats. I don't think any of us have ever not enjoyed a character because he had less than 14 in a dump stat. and we aren't jealous of a player with better stats. That's the way the dice roll. Your job as a player is to deal with what you get and make the most of it. :)
Nick Soapdish 06-29-04, 08:58 AM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden "Control-freak DM's" are those who want the Players to have as little power & control as possible- and wants HIMSELF to control even small details of the PC's acts & lives. Often, he already knows what he wants to see, and the PC's can't do much about it. Railroading is endemic. "Low magic campaigns" are not bad- as such (assuming the DM understands how ECL is figured and why the PC wealth chart in the DMG is there- but most don't...) . It is just that extreme limitations on what the PC's have in the way of equiptment is yet another form of "control" such a DM can place on the Players/PC's. Based upon what the OP said- we could have a "control freak" DM here. There are several "danger" signs- OTOH, those are also signs of a perfectly good DM revolting against prior out of control craziness, or an inexperienced DM unsure of himself. Thus, I'd like to know more before "passing judgement". Several danger signs? Like using PHB stuff only or point buy? Without getting any examples of what he's not approving from other books, I'm not terribly inclined to trust in the original poster's gut reaction that he's being "horribly restrictive" and only approving what suits him (which is something that I actually expect from DMs - should they allow some horribly broken class from the Complete series just because the player wants to play it?).
preacher of nothing 06-29-04, 09:04 AM	I also have to add that using the PrC's from the PHB can be very very rewarding for the campaign. There's something there for everything. The shadowdancer, the blackguard, the arcane archer and so on and so forth. The only difference between PrC's from the PHB and from other sources is that those from other sources are made so that your character suits your personality best. But remember that during the game your own personality can change drastically. While IRL you're a quiet nice guy/girl, during the game you can be anything from a raging barbarian to a silent but deadly assassin.....
SweetMeats 06-29-04, 10:20 AM	Originally posted by CrimsonPhoenix He is being horribly restrictive on character creation, starting us with point buy 25 and not allowing anything outside the player's handbook, races or otherwise, unless pre-approved. The problem with this is that anything that doesn't suit him is not approved. Welcome to a balanced game. I use 4d6dl method rather than points cost, but thats basically how I run my games. I'm pretty sure that most of the posters on these boards do similar. If you allow everything out there the game quickly falls to the dogs IMO and experience. I get the idea that he is DMing only for his own fun and is not allowing us to do anything fun for ourselves. I was kind of hoping to hear what people have to say about this so I can show him this thread in hopes of changing his mind. Not at all. By sounds of it, he is running a game he feels he can cope with or at the very least, one where he knows whats being brought to the table. I will admit that 25 points is low, but I hav played some very good characters in games with that points cost. My advice, give it a go and see how it turns out. I think you'll be surprised how much fun a basic game like this can be. Good luck.
General Dorsey 06-29-04, 10:36 AM	From what you've said, I can see what you are saying, but I have to say I agree with the overall sentiment here: he is not being too restrictive. Have you asked what he wants from the campaign? His goals may give you an idea as to why he has made those decisions. It would also allow you and the rest of the party to create characters that are both fun to play and work within the framework of the campaign. You may find the challenge more exciting than the power you're used to.
sinestus 06-29-04, 10:41 AM	holy smokes... playing dragins..... back in my day... we didn't have "races"... your choices for characters were : Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Fighter, Thief, Wizard, Cleric.... that was it... and no.. the Elf Fighter didn't exist... Elf xOR Fighter... (that's Exclusive OR for you non ligcis out there... one or the other, NEVER BOTH) AND WE LIKED IT... (uphills, both ways, in the snow, fleeing from hill giants...) really... i can never get these uber-munchkin half-dragon elightened immortal celestial arse pirates with seventeen PRCs and lavel 20 despite having a racial level modifier of 35.... campeigns... you want that level of power, play Rifts... D&D has always been about the birth of Heroes... slightly better than average people who go out and make something of themselves... one of the core concepts has always been the ability to enter a town and restock on supplies... without having to conceal what you are... no half-demon demigods what have to conceal what they are and thus always suffer socially as they don't quite fit in... you want social angst, play Vampire... (yes, i understand you can have plot within the d20 system) but seriously, have you ever tried playing a character who wasn't any better/special than what others could achieve given the same time/adventures... ever notice that the stories what sell best are not about half-gods... or teams of them... what's the point of a dungeon crawl if you don't fit in the dungeon... or could just blow it up anyways...
Krelios 06-29-04, 10:51 AM	Just thought I'd throw my 2cp in and agree. This is pretty standard. I don't like point buy, but that's because I'm old school and I don't like every character to have the same stats (which point buy tends to encourage IMHO). Aside from that, Core Only with DM approval of non-core is how I run my games and how everyone else I know (in RL anyway, people on the boards are as diverse as they come) runs theirs. That's how the DM maintains balance and gives direction to the story.
danielinthewolvesden 06-29-04, 11:53 AM	Originally posted by Nick Soapdish Several danger signs? Like using PHB stuff only or point buy? Not really- you might read the OP's entire post. Such lines as "I get the idea that he is DMing only for his own fun and is not allowing us to do anything fun for ourselves" is perhaps the most worrisome. But "control freak DMs' do like to restrict races, classes & other options like that. OTOH- so do some other DM's, so all by itself that's Ok. It's when it's combined with lines like "I get the idea that he is DMing only for his own fun and is not allowing us to do anything fun for ourselves" that I worry.
Derren S. 06-29-04, 11:58 AM	But why does he get this idea? Becuase no monster races and 3rd party books are allowed?
striderII 06-29-04, 12:00 PM	Not really- you might read the OP's entire post. Such lines as "I get the idea that he is DMing only for his own fun and is not allowing us to do anything fun for ourselves" is perhaps the most worrisome. But "control freak DMs' do like to restrict races, classes & other options like that. OTOH- so do some other DM's, so all by itself that's Ok. It's when it's combined with lines like "I get the idea that he is DMing only for his own fun and is not allowing us to do anything fun for ourselves" that I worry. But then, from the general tone of your posts (to my perception, anyway), I think you have this whole "low magic + restricting races = control freak DM". There is nothing wrong with restricting races, classes, or anything else in the game. Just because it's in the book does not mean the players can automatically have it. Every rule is optional. strider
eudas 06-29-04, 12:45 PM	I agree with many of the other posters -- I think that you should give 25pt core play a try. Limitations are just as interesting/exciting as powers, and overcoming challenges is more rewarding when you have to work a bit for it instead of just yawning and using power X to defeat it. As an aside, I personally find the super-high-powered level of play (complete with half-fiendish dire feral anthropomorphic baleen whale with 4 different PRCs) quite ridiculous. It reminds me of playing AD&D in high school, when everbody is immature and running around with Holy Avengers +6 and 30th level fighter/mage/thief/ranger/paladins or whatnot. At that level of play, just close your books and play make-believe, because you're not even really using the rules anymore -- generally, at that point, you've got almost as many exceptions to the rules as you do actual rules. eudas
Ogre Mage 06-29-04, 07:56 PM	A lot depends on the campaign world. For instance, in a high-powered world like FR, I would agree that the limitations outlined are overly restrictive and not fitting with the world. However, for a lower-magic homebrew world, perhaps it is appropriate. Managing unusual PCs is more work for the GM and perhaps he doesn't want the headache. Playing an unusual PC is a privilege, not a right. 25 PB is on the low side, however, and makes MAD characters hard to play. Make sure your DM sees the "Character Wealth" tables on pg. 135 of the DMG so he knows how much treasure is average. Because your point buy is on the low end of the scale, you will need at least average wealth to maintain a power level appropriate for your level. If you have both low wealth AND low PB, the CRs in the MM are skewed against the PCs and no longer reflect a challenge appropriate for their level.
satyrgrrrrl 06-29-04, 08:22 PM	I don't find anything that you've said about the DM to be restrictive. In my own game, and in the 2 other games I play in, we use a default array of 25 points: 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15. It is not low; it is presented as the standard array. As far as races in the PHB, that's all I normally allow myself (I just started an Eberron campaign, and opened it up to the setting-unique races), and the same with the other two games. And I have to approve anything from any other book; everything is considered excluded unless I allow it. If someone came up to me asking to play a half-dragon (or a full dragon), I would say no. If they asked for some feat out of the BoEX, I'd say no. I think you need to take a step back from what you know in the other (perhaps too lenient) games and at least try it out in this guy's world before you start complaining. Too restrictive would be going unreasonably beyond the bounds of the rules, saying that no one can multiclass, or that Wizards take a -2 penalty to Con because of some arbitrary reason. Now, I do not advocate a GM exluding something just because s/he doesn't think it's "cool". I know that this is a group thing, and not everyone has the same idea of what's "cool" and what's "dumb". I generally allow things that are not over-powered, do not disrupt the world I'm running, and fit with the character concept. Just because I'd never play a Horizon Walker doesn't mean I won't let my players play one. Try making a character with the GM's rules. Standard isn't restrictive, you're just spoiled. :P
Ogre Mage 06-29-04, 08:44 PM	The problem I have with 25 PB is that it punishes classes that need multiple high stats (Paladin, Monk). It does not encourage parity between the classes. Survival at low levels is also a huge challenge. Of course some people don't mind a lot of death or else have DMs who fudge in favor of 1st level characters.
satyrgrrrrl 06-29-04, 09:28 PM	Originally posted by Ogre Mage The problem I have with 25 PB is that it punishes classes that need multiple high stats (Paladin, Monk). It does not encourage parity between the classes. Survival at low levels is also a huge challenge. Of course some people don't mind a lot of death or else have DMs who fudge in favor of 1st level characters. I haven't had any of the problems that you mentioned with the default array... I've seen (and played) good Paladins with the array, and the only reason that Monk kept dying is because he would try to grapple things 3 times his size. :P All classes benefit from having all stats high, but none *needs* all of them high to be on par with the other classes. Parity? Having a default array ensures equality, much more than rolling stats does. All classes created equal (as I think they are as close as they can be), a wide variety in ability scores (from rolling), makes the gaps between the characters worse. Point buy itself ensures a level playing field, regardless of how many points you give. I don't have a lot of death, nor do I (or my other GM's) fudge dice rolls in favor of characters. We simply put them up against appropriate challenges at low levels. I'm not about to try to convert the whole world, just want to offer experience to the contrary, to show that maybe his GM isn't being too restrictive. My group enjoys it, so it can't be all bad. ;)
devinmdp 06-29-04, 09:39 PM	You don't need to fudge to have standard array 1st level PCs survive. You just need to simply adjust the encounters in the first place. That's not fudging. That's good encounter design. Devin
BlaineTog 06-29-04, 09:40 PM	Truly, your DM is not being overrestrictive. Allowing noncore material only with specific DM approval is standard (and, IMO, necessary, in most cases. I'd also allow most of the XPH, but I'm partial to Psionics). IMC, I don't shoot down characters because of convoluted backstories; if you want to play a half-normally-evil race, half-normally-good race and play an Exalted Paladin, go ahead. Its your character, not mine. (There are, however, limits. Moderation in everything, I always say). However, I will shoot down builds. So if that aforementioned charcter's build is munchy, I'm not going to allow it. If the player wants to rework it to be less munchy, then its fine. And obviously, all of the non-core (and possible non-XPH) stuff is completelly subject to my approval. I don't like point buy, however. It just seems inorganic and too subject to min/maxing IMHO. I really like 4d6 drop lowest (although I generally let players autmoticaly re-roll anything lower than 8. Those scores just don't seem heroic to me).
Tevandel Surefacet 06-29-04, 09:44 PM	I'll chime in and agree, just a 25 point buy and only PHB classes and races is not necessarily a make restrictive DM. I will admit that I prefer a campaign with a higher point buy or roll 4d6 drop low, but mostly we play with PHB classes and races and have lots of fun. Also as a side note two of the most memorable characters I have ever played were an elf with a CHA of 6 who had a pendent for leading with his face (fell off a second story building when he was first level and improved his looks!), and a dwarf with a 6 intelligence who chased leprechauns yelling “feet! feet!” and eventually died from a mixed potion explosion (2nd edition potion mixing rules) when he pushed a hollow pillar with the treasure in it over (he had found several gold in the first pillar so he kept pushing them over until it killed him). The main reason that I bring these up is that sometimes it can be as much fun to play a standard race or class with one really low stat as it is to play a really unusual race or class. Try it you may like it!
Astanphaeus 06-29-04, 11:45 PM	I'm willing to bet that CrimsonPhoenix won't be showing this thread to his DM. ;) Although, we may wish to congratulate him for generating what must be an unprecedented level of agreement in this community. ;) ~ A.
Edymnion 06-29-04, 11:49 PM	Originally posted by preacher of nothing I also have to add that using the PrC's from the PHB can be very very rewarding for the campaign. Just a nitpick, but there are no PrC in the PHB. PrC are purely up to the DM on if he/she even wants one in his game. A DM can say "No PrC of any kind, at all, period and still be playing a perfectly normal core game. Essentially, the only things a Player should take as a promise is the stuff in the PHB. Nothing else needs to be involved in the game. And even then, the DM can restrict even further. Restrictive would be something along these lines: 15 point buy. Humans only. No spellcasting classes. No two-handed weapons. Nothing over Medium armor allowed. Now THAT would be a restrictive game.
roll8dn 06-30-04, 02:00 AM	I have been playing DND for a while now. I just started DMing my own campaign. On the player side, my DM likes the uber-powered, epic-level, 13-prestige class builds. He enjoys powergaming, or, at least, playing at a high power level (just to avoid any confusion, powergaming, in my definition, is taking advantage of the rules to make the DM's life hard...). He started us off at 18th level (I prefer to write up a backstory for my characters, so I'm still in the midst of that, two weeks later...) and had us roll 4d6 and keep all 4. I find this sort of gaming to be enjoyable, but a bit flavorless. However, I am having fun with what my character can do and with who he is. He can quest for his family's heirloom and not worry overmuch about getting toasted by the odd beholder on the way there. He will, however have trouble with the lich that is holding on to his heirloom, so it's all balanced. Me, I just started DMing, and am allowing all core races, as well as all variants found in Forgotten Realms (that's where the setting is). (I REALLY need to get that Races of Faerun book, but I'm broke :( ) Any monstrous race with an ECL of +5 or lower I allow (I know this is real high, but it is a higher-powered setting than the one presented in the PHB), with DM (my) approval. Also, I have to approve PrCs, although I am not really restrictive with those, either. I just want to get an idea of what I can throw at my PCs and still have them live. Also, I don't want anything to be thrown at me that is exceedingly over-powered. One of the gentlemen in my campaign decided to be a Githyanki wizard, which (since he wrote up a good backstory for him) I don't have too much of a problem with, mechanically or flavor-wise. My other PC is a halfling rogue, just the standard halfling out to see the world (and make a few gp). I also run a DM PC of the penultimate dwarf: a fighter/ barbarian build that is building up to be a battlerager (I did this for the comic relief value; seeing a dwarf that drinks a gallon of ale a night, runs around in spiked full plate with no weapons but himself and kills his enemies by shaking them to death [yes, the Salvatore influence is paid homage to] tends to be funny). I tend to throw things like lower-level undead and the standard orc or four (beefed up a bit to give them a challenge) at my PCs and it keeps everyone happy, whilst I try to draw them into my long-term campaign. From what I read of your post, Crimson Pheonix, it seems that your DM is not being horribly restrictive. He just wants to have an idea of what you intend to do with your character. Heck, I'd want the same. It's that critical phrase: "With DM approval" that makes the difference between having few options and having options that make sense in his gaming world. Now, the 25-point buy system seems a little underpowered to me, but if your DM is making a game out of the PHB, DMG, and the MM only, you should be fine. The key to surviving in a low-powered game is to have a PARTY, not a bunch of uber-powered maniacs. (Edit: Sorry, didn't want to offend anyone, just making fun of myself [don't ask].) Everyone should have a role in a low-powered campaign. The cleric should be the designated healer, the fighter the combat machine, the ranger or rogue the scout, etc. That way, everyone covers everyone else's weak spots. Having four fighters or four wizards or four anythings is a good way to get slaughtered in a low-powered campaign. My suggestion is this: play the high-powered campaign for the rules bending type of fun, and play the low-powered campaign for role play flavor. Spend more time thinking up a new and interesting character concept than a set of abilities. A dwarf who lost his brother in a drow raid, and wants to find those responsible and bring them back to his hometown of Shining Hall for justice can be a campaign-spanning quest all in one character. Make him have some idiosyncracies (sorry, not an English major :) ). He hates drow, but loves elves. Instead of the traditional ale-guzzling dwarf, make him an art patron. He loves all sorts of new devices and puzzles, and became a rogue in order to figure out how to take them apart and put them back together (this being the reason that his open lock and disable device ranks are maxxed out). I'm tired, and it's about two in the morning, so I'll just leave it at this (and I apologize for taking up so much room, but I figured i had something to offer...) : your DM doesn't seem to be a control freak from the comments you wrote, but I may just be getting the wrong impression. If he turns out to be one, don't play with him; have fun in your other game. Happy Gaming.
wdarkk 06-30-04, 02:10 AM	Just a nitpick, I've seen a lot of evidence that WotC's use of 25 points as the average of 4d6-1d6 x6 is statistically wrong. Try doing a search. That said, this isn't too unusual or even bad.
Krelios 06-30-04, 10:29 AM	4d6, drop the lowest actually comes out to about 29.5 points. 25 pts is what NPCs are usually built with, 30 is statistically average, and 32 is pretty generous. That being said, I still like rolling my stats, but it's mostly because I'm old fashioned and I don't like everyone being equal.
SweetMeats 06-30-04, 10:32 AM	Originally posted by Krelios That being said, I still like rolling my stats, but it's mostly because I'm old fashioned and I don't like everyone being equal. I agree. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, and D&D characters should be no exception. I can't say I've ever really understood the reasoning behind the dislike of dice rolled stats.
eudas 06-30-04, 12:33 PM	The approaches towards building a character are different. Dice rolling is more appropriate if you are OK with playing whatever you get. If you dice roll 3d6 and get 12, 8, 14, 9, 16, 10, then playing a thief is going to be kind of hard. However, you might make a decent cleric. If you're ok with detemining your character type based on what you roll then it's a great way to do it. However, most people approach from the POV of "I want to play a <class X>". In this case, building your character with a point-buy system is more appropriate, because it allows you to build to your design rather than forcing your design to accomodate random dice rolls. Either way is fine, and can lead to very interesting characters, but the choose-class-first method of character design is much more prevalent. eudas
Stuntman 06-30-04, 12:55 PM	Originally posted by Krelios 4d6, drop the lowest actually comes out to about 29.5 points. 25 pts is what NPCs are usually built with, 30 is statistically average, and 32 is pretty generous. That being said, I still like rolling my stats, but it's mostly because I'm old fashioned and I don't like everyone being equal. The one advantage of the standard point buy is that the stats you get is deterministic. You know for sure that you will not get really low (but not hopeless) stats. For certain character builds where you value many slightly above average stats over a few very high and low stats, the point buy is better. With the point buy, you can guarantee 100% that you will have adequate stats for a particular build. With rolling, you will most likely get much better stats than you need, but you risk the possibility of not getting the stats you need at all. The other characteristic of the point buy is that you do not end up with some PC's getting really high stats and others getting mediocre stats. This may be good or bad depending on the individual. Personally, I do not mind that some PC's have higher stats than others. In life everyone is dealt a different strength hand and it is up to the individual to make do with what he gets. Others like to ensure that all PC's start off on a level playing field. The same thing can be said with consistent versus rolled hit points. You can choose to take the consistent hit points each level which is below average by 1/2 hp per level. You can also choose to roll in which case you get more on average, but may end up with less.
Nick Soapdish 06-30-04, 02:56 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden Not really- you might read the OP's entire post. Such lines as "I get the idea that he is DMing only for his own fun and is not allowing us to do anything fun for ourselves" is perhaps the most worrisome. But "control freak DMs' do like to restrict races, classes & other options like that. OTOH- so do some other DM's, so all by itself that's Ok. It's when it's combined with lines like "I get the idea that he is DMing only for his own fun and is not allowing us to do anything fun for ourselves" that I worry. Did you read my entire reply? I paraphrased that exact line. I guess I should've quoted it instead. Originally posted by Nick Soapdish Without getting any examples of what he's not approving from other books, I'm not terribly inclined to trust in the original poster's gut reaction that he's being "horribly restrictive" and only approving what suits him (which is something that I actually expect from DMs - should they allow some horribly broken class from the Complete series just because the player wants to play it?).
Ogre Mage 06-30-04, 04:31 PM	Parity? Having a default array ensures equality, much more than rolling stats does. All classes created equal (as I think they are as close as they can be), a wide variety in ability scores (from rolling), makes the gaps between the characters worse. Point buy itself ensures a level playing field, regardless of how many points you give. My criticism was not of point buy vs. die rolling. I think PB is good, just that 25 PB is pretty low. Our group has used 32 PB three times, which allowed MAD characters like monks to have good stats in their abilties. Even then, all three campaigns (under three different DMs) had deaths and near deaths at levels 1-3. With 25 PB, there would have been even more.
Krelios 06-30-04, 05:04 PM	My only real complaint about point buy is there is a "best array" for any given class so 99% of fighters will look exactly the same stat-wise. That just bothers me. I don't WANT to know what a character's stats are just from eyeballing them and guessing their class.
Elrana 06-30-04, 05:09 PM	I have to stand alongside the dice rollers on this one. You roll the dice and play with what you have got. That is how we did it in the old days and how we still do it now. At the end of the day we aren't all born equal, but we are all born with the capability to make the most of what we have got. Having no weaknesses just makes a character average, no matter how many great things he achieves. It is overcoming your weaknesses in order to achieve that makes you truly great. Back in the real world playing an all-round uber character is easy and achievements are devalued because they come so easily, it requires very little in the way of role-playing skill. Making a character truly great, despite having to role-play your way around his weaknesses is what marks the good role-player from the average role-player. :)
roguebfl 06-30-04, 06:24 PM	I starting to move to the point buy methord myself mainly due to one of my players I can not disinvite to games (due to relationship issue) has a problem of 'fudgeing stat rolls' so that they have AT LEAST two natural 18s Ininsted on using Chargens to make ther characters (and will reroll for his fudging). this Cheapes the unqueness of stats far more that point buy IMO
danielinthewolvesden 06-30-04, 07:06 PM	My problem with a 25pt buy is that it's what commoners & NPC's get, and I like my PC's to be heroic not "Joe-average".:sad:
devinmdp 06-30-04, 07:17 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden My problem with a 25pt buy is that it's what commoners & NPC's get, and I like my PC's to be heroic not "Joe-average".:sad: But they BECOME heroic. They don't start that way. That's why every 4 levels they gain stats. Devin
devinmdp 06-30-04, 07:21 PM	Originally posted by roguebfl I starting to move to the point buy methord myself mainly due to one of my players I can not disinvite to games (due to relationship issue) has a problem of 'fudgeing stat rolls' so that they have AT LEAST two natural 18s Ininsted on using Chargens to make ther characters (and will reroll for his fudging). this Cheapes the unqueness of stats far more that point buy IMO How do you fudge stat rolls? Simply require that they all be rolled before your eyes. I require this. If one of my players gets bent out of shape with the fact that he feels I don't trust him, I say the following: "Look, I do this for your protection. Let's face it. Using 4D6 drop the lowest die, it is unlikely, but theoretically possible for someone to roll six 17s or 18s. Should that unlikely feat occur, and were I not to witness the rolls, then almost unavoidably, both I and the other players would always be skeptical and doubt the legitimacy of the PC. OTOH, if you roll such great stats in front of me, then you will be able to enjoy them without any sort of recimination or doubt." Devin
Doc225 06-30-04, 07:36 PM	actually, commoners get 15 points (13 12 11 10 9 8). NPC classes (commoner, adept, aristocrat, warrior, expert) use this stat base, unless they are an exceptional person who just decided not to be an adventurer. NPC's with PC classes get standard array (25 pts) yes, but they are considered elites. If you run into 5 orcs, chances are you will have 4 war1 and 1 Ftr1 or War2. That Ftr 1 or War2 may have "elite array" stats, but the commonplace in a 25 point world will be 15 point NPC classers. Now, when the DM throws nothing but Orc Ftr5 with 2 Brb3's as followers, and rolled stats randomly, yeah p[ont buy 25 is gunna be the death of you. Power is relative. Playing high stats and crazy races in a standard game is like me playing baseball with 4th graders. I would OWN them (barring phenoms.) I could, instead, gather friends near my age group and skill level and have a softball game where drinking an adult beverage and enjoying a cigar while playing the outfield is more than acceptable. I'm not gunna hit a HR every at bat or strike out every batter, but as long as everyone plays fair and follows the rules, I'm gunna have fun. I'm not gunna want Sosa, McGwire, or Pujols to come play in my pickup softball game, why should your DM invite your fiendish dire half dragon werepanther?
Elrana 06-30-04, 07:45 PM	Originally posted by roguebfl I starting to move to the point buy methord myself mainly due to one of my players I can not disinvite to games (due to relationship issue) has a problem of 'fudgeing stat rolls' so that they have AT LEAST two natural 18s Ininsted on using Chargens to make ther characters (and will reroll for his fudging). this Cheapes the unqueness of stats far more that point buy IMO You are DM. Only stats rolled while you witness them count. Whether a player comes to you with good stats or bad stats it doesn't matter. They roll again so that you can watch. If they then roll two 18s and four 17s so be it, at least you know it was genuine and they have one of the truly awesome members of their race. Alternatively screw them right back if they come to you lying about stat rolls. Tell the player that with stats like that they must be a paragon of their race and insist that they put three levels into the UA paragon. And make it their first three. That way they miss out on some of the benefits! Incidentally, rolling witnessed 4d6 for a party NPC who I was intending to kill in the first session of a new campaign I was starting (the first session encounter left no treasure, a dead party NPC did, that was the logic) I rolled 18 - 18 - 18 - 16 - 15 - 14. Suffice it to say I didn't kill him off. The next new campaign I started I rolled, again witnessed, 4d6 for the party NPC 16 - 16 - 16 - 16 - 16 - 15, he is an awesome monk! Unusual stat rolls do come up, but only when I roll NPCs. My last 4d6 roll for a PC 8 - 10 - 12 - 12 - 14 - 16! Arse! Still, a 15 year old CN half-fey rogue with 18 dex., 18 cha. and only 10 wis. is a hell of a lot of fun to play! He has just been given the alternative: join the army or go to gaol. So I think I really have to move into soldier levels. I'm thinking of Hexblade. A half-fey rogue 2/hexblade. By fifth level he has evasion and mettle and his charisma modifier as a bonus to all saves. I quite like the idea of a fairly psychotic half-fey street-urchin rogue/hexblade! Who says original character concepts don't exist anymore! :) (BTW: When I say 'witnessed' referring to NPC rolls, basically I mean 'openly rolled'. I am not too worried about the PCs knowing the strength or weakness of the party NPC in the same way as they know each other's. If I am rolling him while the group are around me they are welcome to watch. It also scares the bejesus out of them when they see me roll stats like that for NPCs; they worry like buggery in case I roll those stats for the BBEGs as well! :) )
roguebfl 06-30-04, 08:15 PM	agian the relation situation has me unable to call the player a liar. now my ituation is proble not the norm. but it is just one of the posible reasons
satyrgrrrrl 07-01-04, 01:58 AM	I'm sorry but I seemed to have started a debate between dice rolling and point buy. Maybe we can get back to this gentleman's problem... or at least stop the dice-rolling-vs.-point-buy argument before it really gets going? :angel:
Doc225 07-01-04, 02:35 AM	I'd just give it a go. You might enjoy yourself. I want to run a point-buy 25, standard races only game and see how it will work out. The DM's I play with always use the "4d6, drop low, reroll 1's" method, and there is usually a bit of a gap in the stats of the players. 1 guy rolled 18 16 16 15 14 14 (and we watched him do it) while another rolled something like 15 14 13 12 10 10 (which is pretty darn close to point buy 25 (27)) luckily, the guy with the lower scores likes playing support- type, fill-in style characters, or there might have been some unhappiness goin on. the Dm had to throw monsters that he had tweaked, which angered some of the guys, cause they see orcs and think cakewalk. There was alot of "orcs can't do that" going on. There was also alot of times were we faced creatures that were way above suggested CR, and way too many equal CR cakewalks before the DM figured it out. I thought it was funny the first few times he let our group wade through what he thought was an equal CR encounter. Our group (minus mr support) was somewhere near an average of point buy 52 (or some other really high number.) Had we been point buy 25, or even 32, we probably could have gone against equal CR stuff and ben challenged. It's simply a matter of preference. Moral of my story is this, when you go up against encounters properly scaled for you (even tough ones) you will have fun. You'll also be suprised just how tough a human can get when you tack on a bunch of fighter or bar-bar levels. Can make that LA+4 monstrosity look weak if played right. SO, give it a go, you might like it.
roguebfl 07-01-04, 02:45 AM	Well Orcs in my world Are exacly as liklely to be classed as humans, so ther 'hey that too high a CR for an orc, is like say your to high a level for a human 8)
Doc225 07-01-04, 03:02 AM	Roguebfl.. that's exactly how it should be, I agree. If i DM, Orcs are just as likely to have class levels as humans, but on a similar scale. The complaint the guys had was when orcs had extra high stats (which were about even to ours, and I had no problem with it) and class levels with feat combos that the others didn't expect. I don't know how many times the DM and I said "um, they could have class levels you know" I remember one time specifically. Our multiclassed munchkin tank charged a troll. He was thinking' "Eh, just a troll." Well, that troll had 4 barbar levels, a +1 Large battleaxe, +1 chain shirt, and a ring of fire resistance. The big moosey almost died. The whole time the Dm and I were laughing, because not 15 minutes earlier had myself and the party rogue advised him not to rush blindly in to every fight. I thought it was sweet. most of my advice on the matter is to help phoenix out. Playing a point buy 25 core game can be really fun if handled properly.
bitnine 07-01-04, 03:28 AM	Originally posted by Doc225 Roguebfl.. that's exactly how it should be, I agree. If i DM, Orcs are just as likely to have class levels as humans, but on a similar scale.Heh, it's funny how that is. I know that there are some folk who might encounter a group of orc bandits and assume that they must be as per their stat blocks from the MM (1st level warriors), but if they encountered a group of elf bandits, they'd assume them to be class leveled. Heck, even their organization block mentions 3rd level sargeants, 5th level lieutenants, and 7th level captains. I don't know why this belief that certain (particularly non-PHB) races don't accrue class levels as others do, even in cities, armies, or other large groupings, but it pops up now and again.
Arbitrary Aardvark 07-01-04, 02:09 PM	Originally posted by Ogre Mage The problem I have with 25 PB is that it punishes classes that need multiple high stats (Paladin, Monk). It does not encourage parity between the classes. Survival at low levels is also a huge challenge. Of course some people don't mind a lot of death or else have DMs who fudge in favor of 1st level characters. I keep seeing this, and I just don't believe it. Look, as a Paladin or Monk, you just won't have any "great" attributes. You can't build your character like a fighter, and then add extra Wisdom and Charisma. As a Paladin, expect that you will not be as good at hitting things as a fighter. As a monk, expect that your base AC won't be as good as a rogue's. Too many people want their monks to be almost as strong as a fighter, almost as nimble as a rogue, almost as wise as a cleric. Instead, you can build someone who is better than average in those attributes, but not great. 25 point buys for various classes Fighter STR 16 +3 CON 14 +2 DEX 13 +1 INT 10 WIS 8 -1 CHA 10 Rogue STR 10 CON 13 +1 DEX 16 +3 INT 12 +1 WIS 10 CHA 10 Paladin STR 14 +2 CON 12 +1 DEX 10 INT 10 WIS 13 +1 CHA 14 +2 Monk STR 13 +1 CON 12 +1 DEX 14 +2 INT 10 WIS 14 +2 CHA 10
Arbitrary Aardvark 07-01-04, 02:10 PM	Originally posted by SweetMeats I agree. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, and D&D characters should be no exception. I can't say I've ever really understood the reasoning behind the dislike of dice rolled stats. You haven't played in the groups I have, where some characters had four strengths and no weaknesses, and others had one strength and four liabilities. (Converting to PB, we had a spread of 21 to 63 points.)
Elrana 07-01-04, 03:10 PM	Originally posted by Arbitrary Aardvark You haven't played in the groups I have, where some characters had four strengths and no weaknesses, and others had one strength and four liabilities. (Converting to PB, we had a spread of 21 to 63 points.) 63? So some people rolled three 19s? Or was it one 21? :confused: :)
Beamup 07-01-04, 03:11 PM	Originally posted by Elrana 63? So some people rolled three 19s? Or was it one 21? :confused: :) Normal rolling can produce (in theory) up to a 96 point buy (6 18's), so I'm not sure what you're questioning. Here's one example of a 63 point buy equivalent that could be rolled: 18 18 18 17 10 8
devinmdp 07-01-04, 03:18 PM	"Paladin STR 14 +2 CON 12 +1 DEX 10 INT 10 WIS 13 +1 CHA 14 +2" What's a Paladin need with Wisdom right out of the box? I'd lower Wisdom to 11 or 12 and then raise Charisma. At 4th level I'd take a final point of Cha if it increases my bonus, and then take Wis at 8th level. Charisma is everything for a Paladin. Devin
Elrana 07-01-04, 03:22 PM	Originally posted by Beamup Normal rolling can produce (in theory) up to a 96 point buy (6 18's), so I'm not sure what you're questioning. Here's one example of a 63 point buy equivalent that could be rolled: 18 18 18 17 10 8 I make that 41. No matter how I play with it I can't see a 63. Extrapolating from your all 18s 96 point maximum I still only make your sample stats a 53. What am I doing wrong? :)
Beamup 07-01-04, 03:26 PM	18 = 16 points 18 = 16 points 18 = 16 points 17 = 13 points 10 = 2 points 8 = 0 points total = 63 points See DMG page 169.
Elrana 07-01-04, 03:58 PM	Originally posted by Beamup 18 = 16 points 18 = 16 points 18 = 16 points 17 = 13 points 10 = 2 points 8 = 0 points total = 63 points See DMG page 169. I have a feeling that you and everyone else are looking at things differently. On that logic a 25 point buy would be: Str: 8 Dex: 9 Con: 10 Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 In all fairness, although I am far from being a munchkin I would call that restrictive and be unhappy with a DM playing those character generation rules. :)
danielinthewolvesden 07-01-04, 04:09 PM	The "buys" start with all stats @8. From 9>14 each +1 costs only one "point". Then it costs 2 points to get to 15, another two to get to 16, and then 3 points to get to 17. The best 'cluck for your buck" is a 14 for only 6 points. You do have a DMG don't you?:confused:
Beamup 07-01-04, 04:50 PM	Originally posted by Elrana I have a feeling that you and everyone else are looking at things differently. On that logic a 25 point buy would be: Str: 8 Dex: 9 Con: 10 Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 In all fairness, although I am far from being a munchkin I would call that restrictive and be unhappy with a DM playing those character generation rules. :) No. Not even close. Read the DMG section on point buy, since it's clear the picture you have of how point buy works is totally off. (What you've listed is a 3 point buy.)
Doc225 07-01-04, 05:00 PM	Elrana, I would say that YOU are looking at thigs differently than everyone else. The point buy rules are on page 169 of the DMG. They are easily understood when you see the chart. The point of the thread, however, is not to discuss point buy. Overall, I stand by my position that as long as the campaign is balanced for it, point buy 25 can be very fun.
roguebfl 07-01-04, 05:43 PM	Originally posted by Arbitrary Aardvark 25 point buys for various classes Rogue STR 10 CON 13 +1 DEX 16 +3 INT 12 +1 WIS 10 CHA 10 I would swap the Con and Int, so that at level 4 they go to Int 14. Rogues are very skill bassed. and for some rogue I would build it liek this: STR 10 CON 10 DEX 16 +3 INT 13 +1 WIS 10 CHA 12 +1
roguebfl 07-01-04, 05:46 PM	One critism is you do not have te possiblity of Scores less then 8. Why not refure the char as well. Ie: 7 = -1 6 = -2 5 = -3 4 = -4 3 = -5 not you would also have to rule toat no stat can be brought below 3.
roguebfl 07-01-04, 06:09 PM	Originally posted by Doc225 The point of the thread, however, is not to discuss point buy. acuull it is, in so far as wither or not some using point buy and PHB only races is a 'overly restrictive DM'
Elrana 07-01-04, 06:54 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden The "buys" start with all stats @8. From 9>14 each +1 costs only one "point". Then it costs 2 points to get to 15, another two to get to 16, and then 3 points to get to 17. The best 'cluck for your buck" is a 14 for only 6 points. You do have a DMG don't you?:confused: I don't have my DMG to hand (it is with a friend who is planning a campaign) and I was looking at a straight one for one system. This is why I was becoming confused! As I said earlier, we have never used point buy, we roll our stats and what you get you play with. The only thing we have ever tried down that route is a one for one stat swap to a given limit (your highest and lowest rolled stat). The way the 63 point example was written (the +16s and so on after the stats) I read the base stats to be 2, 2, 2, 4, 8, 8 or something! I shall have a read tomorrow night and clarify the situation with myself. Until then ignore my comments as they are based on an incorrect assumption. :)
Enslaved DM 07-08-04, 10:40 PM	To go back a bit, a previous poster mentioned that his DM was restrictive and his character got tossed in jail for 2 months for casting charm person on the captain of the watch. You consider that restrictive? You used MIND CONTROL on the head cop and you only did 2 months. In Warhammer, that can get you killed. In any game I'm running that will get you into serious trouble if you're caught. In the real world attempting to suborn a cop can get you years of jail time. Whatever your DM"s problems, you got off with a slap on the wrist.
Phantom Reaper 07-11-04, 03:30 AM	What is he waiting for get this campaign of his on the go its sounding fun.
Arbitrary Aardvark 07-13-04, 01:11 PM	Originally posted by Beamup Normal rolling can produce (in theory) up to a 96 point buy (6 18's), so I'm not sure what you're questioning. Here's one example of a 63 point buy equivalent that could be rolled: 18 18 18 17 10 8 Hey, you looked at the character sheet... Under 2nd edition 18/00 STR 18 CON 18 WIS 17 DEX 10 INT 8 CHA Used to be a fighter (7 levels), found religion and became a cleric.
LordofIllusions 07-13-04, 01:14 PM	Originally posted by Dauntless Lemme get this straight... because he wants to use the STANDARD point buy... and because he wants to use the STANDARD core races... and because he isn't a fan of OPTIONAL material... That makes him horribly restrictive? I think that is about the just of it. What do you mean he cannot play a 20th-level half-dragon Paladin at the beginning of a 1st-level game ?!!!!! :eek: How dare he RESTRICT you ? :rolleyes: ~~~
LordofIllusions 07-13-04, 01:19 PM	Originally posted by Edyminion Create a PERSON, not just a character sheet. Your DM isn't being overly restrictive, it sounds to me like he's got a good game planned, and doesn't want it spoiled by a bunch of nonsense like "half-this half-that Uber-Barbarians with 9 differant PrC and +10 Vorpal sword-chucks". Good D&D has nothing to do with how many monsters you can kill, or how much damage you can do in a round. Good D&D has everything to do with roleplaying interesting characters and how they interact with the world. Aka, think of this as more of Lord of the Rings than it is a video game. You "win" by having fun, not by killing things. :thumbsup: Or better yet if you just CANNOT live without SUPERHERO characters get up from his(The so-called RESTRICTIVE DM.) table and go back to playing under the DM that allows all of those crazy builds you have. This is a PRIME example of VGS(Video Gaming Syndrome). I am pretty sure the thread(On Video Gaming Syndrome) is still on the DMG boards somewhere. ;) ~~~