Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nihilcurro 08-28-05, 12:28 PM	ok, in the campigan that I am purrently playing in, I am playing a Cleric of Pelor. This is a deep immersion campaign, so charecter interactment is very important. So we have a Dwarf paladin of Moridin, and a Human Crusader of Hironious. That said, we are a quite religious group. Than there is the bard. He likes to continually offend our faith and even tries to drive us appart using our religions. I, being the cleric of Pelor, usually manage to keep the party together, but recently, the bard literally ran in the middle of a battle, :mad: leaving the rest of us to fend for ourselves. He appologized for that and we let him back into the party, but he has continually been an annoyence. We have reched the end of our patiance, so does anyone have some suggestions short of kicking him out of the party? :confused: :confused: Ps. This bard has connections vital to the plot of the campaign. Please, take this seriously.
Dichotomy 08-28-05, 02:11 PM	The problem here APPEARS to be a mix of in-game and out-of-game issues. Therefore, my reply will heavily use the distinction between "player" and "character." Do NOT mix the two up. It seems that either the player is a jerk, or the character is a jerk (or both). If the character is a jerk, ask the player simply to play him differently. The point of the game is to have fun. Perhaps the player doesn't realize that his character is detracting so much from the rest of you. Perhaps the player has some specific vision about who the character is. Does he ever say things like "That's how my character would react?" If so, have the player read this (http://www.giantitp.com/frm0007.html) (particularly the part that starts "Decide to React Differently"). If the problem is instead that the player is a jerk, you have few options. The first solution is ALWAYS talk to him. If the player is a jerk, that will probably not work. Then talk to the DM, and express the problems that you see and ask the DM to fix things. If that fails, you will either have to accept the jerk, leave the game, or (with the other players) pressure the DM into tossing him. The two biggest things are 1) find out if the problem is the player or the character, and 2) TALK about it.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-28-05, 02:37 PM	So your ****** the bard roleplayed a fear of phisical harm and ran away incombat ... sorry that doesnt slide, too many players act like they are invincible and stroll into fights FAR to readily... its nice to see some one roleplaying an aversion to combat. Is it YOU or YOUR CHARACTER that is annoyed his fiath is being quesitoned? If the character is pitting the party against each other based on thier beliefs he is forcing you into roleplaying what would be actual differences between your characters... it seems to me this player is starved of inter-party roleplaying and is acting out to cause you all to "interact" on grounds you cant ignore. My advice would be to frequently start party roleplaying, do a little bit of harmless "my gods better than your god" without him needing to instigate it. When an important decision is made ... kick up a little fuss that by your beliefs this may not be the best course of action, etc. Beef up the interparty roleplaying and tention... give him what he wants and you may find he greets this with intresting roleplaying.
nihilcurro 08-28-05, 03:12 PM	Thanks guys, this has helped alot.
Always-Late 08-28-05, 04:49 PM	Is it YOU or YOUR CHARACTER that is annoyed his fiath is being quesitoned? If the character is pitting the party against each other based on thier beliefs he is forcing you into roleplaying what would be actual differences between your characters... it seems to me this player is starved of inter-party roleplaying and is acting out to cause you all to "interact" on grounds you cant ignore.Remember, fun always > roleplaying. If only one person wants to roleplay, and everybody else hates him, majority rules. That's it. Running in the middle of a battle might make sense in-game, but so might stabbing your whole party and running off with the loot. Sure, it's roleplaying, it might even be accurate IC roleplaying, but it makes for being an OoC pain in the ass. Not good, ever.
Kursk 08-28-05, 08:05 PM	ok, in the campigan that I am purrently playing in, I am playing a Cleric of Pelor. This is a deep immersion campaign, so charecter interactment is very important. So we have a Dwarf paladin of Moridin, and a Human Crusader of Hironious. That said, we are a quite religious group. Than there is the bard. He likes to continually offend our faith and even tries to drive us appart using our religions. I, being the cleric of Pelor, usually manage to keep the party together, but recently, the bard literally ran in the middle of a battle, :mad: leaving the rest of us to fend for ourselves. He appologized for that and we let him back into the party, but he has continually been an annoyence. We have reched the end of our patiance, so does anyone have some suggestions short of kicking him out of the party? :confused: :confused: Ps. This bard has connections vital to the plot of the campaign. Please, take this seriously. Silence with permanancy.
AramilWindwalker 08-28-05, 08:42 PM	Silence with permanancy. seconded why is the bard always the annoying one in campaigns And I nad the exact same issue i was a cleric of pelor, and there was an annoying bard I kicked him down a staircase..... Into a 9 foot tall 6 armed chain slinging snake demon(Pelor wasn't too happy...), but I did raise him after he got massacred, grudgingly
Melpomene 08-28-05, 09:22 PM	Instead of letting him get under your skin, you can try *extra* hard to convert him. Firmly encourage him to join a good-aligned church, or at least to be more devout. Show him the error of his ways, or at least show him that you are strong in your own convictions.
Salla 08-28-05, 09:47 PM	Admittedly, since he's a bard this doesn't carry quite the same sting as it might otherwise, but perhaps something akin to "If you have such issues with my faith, I see no reason it should aid you," and stop giving him healing and buffs and whatnot, until he starts showing some respect (he doesn't have to convert, just respect your various character's choices).
Duration_10_Rounds 08-28-05, 09:55 PM	Remember, fun always > roleplaying. If only one person wants to roleplay, and everybody else hates him, majority rules. That's it. Running in the middle of a battle might make sense in-game, but so might stabbing your whole party and running off with the loot. Sure, it's roleplaying, it might even be accurate IC roleplaying, but it makes for being an OoC pain in the ass. Not good, ever. So you have zero sympathy for the guy because his fellow players hate him for roleplaying? "Hey Jimmy! wanna come play D&D? its a cool roleplaying game, come on you'll like it" "Sure why not" (Later that night.......) "jeeez Jimmy! why do have to be a total jerk? just tell the DM what your hitting and with what and cut all this roleplaying crap!" "wha? bu? you said......"
Salla 08-28-05, 10:13 PM	So you have zero sympathy for the guy because his fellow players hate him for roleplaying? "Hey Jimmy! wanna come play D&D? its a cool roleplaying game, come on you'll like it" "Sure why not" (Later that night.......) "jeeez Jimmy! why do have to be a total jerk? just tell the DM what your hitting and with what and cut all this roleplaying crap!" "wha? bu? you said......" I interpret that more as "He has no sympathy for him because he's chosen to play a character that is a disruptive pain-in-the-butt schmuck who can get away with anything he wants without repercussions because he's important to the plot."
Dragonsblood 08-29-05, 01:57 AM	Scheme with your church buddies to annoy HIM - all in good fun of course. Don't go so far as to lose your god's favor :schemes:
MSW 08-29-05, 03:51 PM	Hold Person, then shave the bard's head. Tell him, the next time he takes any of your beliefs or gods in vain, you'll all be cutting more then his hair... and point to his nether region. :D
Gedrin 08-29-05, 04:59 PM	I would think that Moradin, Hironious and Pelor would all agree that, while they differ in method and view, it is more important for them to stand united against those who would attempt to instigate hostility between goodly faiths, than it is for them to prove themselves against each other. I'd opt for the united front against the bard when he tries to turn you against each other. Don't argue amongst yourselves at his bidding. Maybe even adopt a form of parlementary procedure when you do discuss such things, making it dry, formal, and very boring for the bard, but still a decent way to discuss matters. Flailing at each other in public isn't good for the image of anyone's faith. Also, I would tell the bard point blank,"You need to be careful. We may be of goodly heart, and compassionate to one another, but not everyone is. Your instigation of a religious conflict could place innocents in danger. The power you hold to arrouse the passion of people could be misused and cause a religious conflict, and in the past, these have killed many people without need. Your skill and wit are a great power, and you must use it responsibly."
GreyLord 08-29-05, 05:38 PM	Is this a trend. The Bard (who prestiged into an Eldritch Knight) in our campaign ALSO constantly gets into it (the character) with other players...ESPECIALLY the cleric. What is it with the bard characters?
phaerelastra 08-29-05, 06:12 PM	In another campaign I am playing, we have a bard also, who's a bit nutty. She is actually quite good in our roleplay. In the first campaign we played though, we killed our bard...or rather, we left him behind to be cut in half by an Ankheg. Maybe you could make him feel good about himself by telling him how powerful he made you feel with his songs...I don't know. Bards, when not played by girls, always seem a little....fruity. Unmanly. Whatever you want to call them. Maybe if you remind him that bards are for backup and not for actual combat he'll do a little better.
Leewei 08-29-05, 06:24 PM	He appologized for that and we let him back into the party, but he has continually been an annoyence. Your best friend in this situation is an ultimatum. Either the bard carries his weight or he packs his bags. If the bard's player thinks you won't throw him out, he'll continue to annoy you. If you do kick his character out, though, don't let him back. Make him introduce a new character. Eventually, the player will come up with a concept that isn't anywhere near as annoying.
nick_machine 08-29-05, 09:43 PM	This is quite fascinating. Mainly because the bard in question is my character. :D :D :D Maybe you all have a point though... I may think about it. The battle was part of an agreement to get a room at a temple of Pelor:( I had other plans, so the battle meant nothing to me. That and the crusader is an idiot.
Phaylan the Drow 08-30-05, 11:19 AM	bingley bongely beeeepppp. please leave a message after the tones 'aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhh squelch squelch thud.' the bard oftern leaves a game like this especially when he fumbles the rolls, and soon after so does the rest of the party. be nice bards are a pain in the butt all the time so live with it, mages are a pain in the butt when they run out of spells all the time, fighters are a pain in the butt when they run out of hit points......., in fact every char is a pain in the butt but (excuse the pun) when they go against the grain of the group so what i bet youve got a freind who rubs you up the wrong way sometimes . be nice it could be you who rubs him up the wrong way to get this current reaction from him.
nihilcurro 09-01-05, 06:11 PM	Bump :bump:
hazel monday 09-02-05, 01:58 AM	the sun will rise. the tides will flow. the most annoying player will always be a bard.
Vaelan 09-02-05, 05:28 AM	the sun will rise. the tides will flow. the most annoying player will always be a bard. That's the whole point. Playing a Bard isn't about power. Playing a Bard is about using various vague and poorly-defined abilities to confuse your DM until he gives you whatever you want. Playing a Bard that works for the good of the party tends to avoid annoying the other players while greatly increasing the degree to which the DM is annoyed. Any way you look at it, a well-played Bard is definitely annoying. nick_machine, you're not supposed to ditch the party. You're supposed to take advantage of their good nature by doing something that is not to your benefit and then, after you do so, make sure that they know you expect them to return the favor in the future. Then you screw them over, but just a little so that they won't particularly mind.
Ni! 09-03-05, 12:05 AM	That's the whole point. Playing a Bard isn't about power. Playing a Bard is about using various vague and poorly-defined abilities to confuse your DM until he gives you whatever you want. Playing a Bard that works for the good of the party tends to avoid annoying the other players while greatly increasing the degree to which the DM is annoyed. I KNEW I wasn't the only one who thought that! I also agree with what Vaelan says to nick_machine. If you are being such an :censored: that one of your party members had to go on a message board to try and figure out what to do with you, you are taking it too far. Being a bit annoying is fine, just don't take it so far. And finally, @ the OP, give him a taste of his own medicine, not to the level of ditching him in a fight but...
feartheinvinceblehamster 09-03-05, 11:26 AM	hard to handle in deep immersion. in normal games you can just murder the bard. but it seems that as clerics and deep immersion storytellers you wouldn't....maybe go to the church and see if you can convert the bard?
Kadasbrass 09-03-05, 11:35 AM	Bards cease to exist once everyone stops listening to them...
nick_machine 10-02-05, 01:33 PM	:rofl: nick_machine, you're not supposed to ditch the party. You're supposed to take advantage of their good nature by doing something that is not to your benefit and then, after you do so, make sure that they know you expect them to return the favor in the future. Then you screw them over, but just a little so that they won't particularly mind. Quite Tempting :plotting: I like your idea. And thinking. Ralen would be proud, considering this is all about him. :rofl:
dan1234 10-02-05, 08:46 PM	That would be the best time to play a bard, man I wish I was the bard. Seriously it's just a game, and it's to be expected from a bard.
SwiftFox 10-02-05, 09:03 PM	I think one of the underemphasised problems facing this party is that they are playing true to their alignments... 3 worshippers of lawful deities who are most likely lawful themselves, and 1 guy who is forbidden to be of lawful alignment... of course there's going to be inter-party friction. I think that the lawful guys should cut the bard some slack... even if he avoids some combats because hes not interested in furthering the other PCs personal agendas, hes probably still contributing when it counts.
Andrew_980 10-02-05, 11:17 PM	If this is deep roleplaying, tell him that to your PCs he is insulting, rude and doesn't fit. Tell him that the PCs will not tolerate his presence anylonger, but that is because you are roleplaying!
solbergb 10-03-05, 05:21 PM	That's the whole point. Playing a Bard isn't about power. Playing a Bard is about using various vague and poorly-defined abilities to confuse your DM until he gives you whatever you want. Playing a Bard that works for the good of the party tends to avoid annoying the other players while greatly increasing the degree to which the DM is annoyed. Any way you look at it, a well-played Bard is definitely annoying. Oh I dunno. A bard that in combat sticks to the routine of "Haste the party while they're close together, then sing, then either debuff an enemy or buff a party member with spells", and out of combat makes use of his vast skillset is a huge asset to a party. That's a well played bard. Any class played by an annoying git will be annoying. So far the most dangerous character type I've seen in the hands of an annoying player is sorcerer (bad use of his spells known, bad overall tactics, a determination to annoy NPC's in social situations and a tendency to either get killed or need rescuing thus getting others killed), but my experience is limited. Most folks I play with are pretty cool.
Light of Day 10-03-05, 05:45 PM	Last time I played a bard in a party with a LG cleric, they wound up falling madly in love and may have even procreated if the bard hadn't gone and died. Contrary to popular belief, "incredibly annoying" is not a class feature of bards. With one or two exceptions (paladin and monk come to mind), a class is nothing but a set of abilities your character has, a frame to build upon. That frame may influence their personality, sure, but overall their personality is defined by how you roleplay them, not what their stats are. That said, if the bard is really that annoying, then "dissuading" him from continuing to annoy would greatly benifit both you and those around you, and thus would be a good-aligned action. The three of you should remind him that it is well within your power to remove his kneecaps, and he can have them back if he proves he can behave himself.
nick_machine 10-03-05, 06:06 PM	Thanks guys, this has helped alot. You've helped both sides of this arguement, and for that, I say thankya. :D
spectralphoenix 10-03-05, 06:11 PM	Originally Posted by Light of Day Contrary to popular belief, "incredibly annoying" is not a class feature of bards. Are you sure? I'll have to recheck my PHB... Obviously, what the LG characters do depends on their personalities. The simplest solution might be for them all to agree to ignore the bard and view him as a test of their self-discipline.
20goingon1232 10-03-05, 07:18 PM	Are you sure? I'll have to recheck my PHB... Obviously, what the LG characters do depends on their personalities. The simplest solution might be for them all to agree to ignore the bard and view him as a test of their self-discipline. How about that punishment spell that Clerics get? Mark of Justice or Symbol of Something or Other? Great fun to be had with those. "Mark wil activate when bard tells lies." ZAAAPPPPP!!!!!
feng the red dragon 10-03-05, 07:25 PM	the best way to deal with a annoying character is payback i say wait till the bard is asleep them remove his gear tie him up smuther him in honey and hang him upside down from a tall tree
nick_machine 10-04-05, 07:19 PM	the best way to deal with a annoying character is payback i say wait till the bard is asleep them remove his gear tie him up smuther him in honey and hang him upside down from a tall tree That's not very LG now, is it? Personally, I do like the idea of it being a test of self-discipline, but after talking to DM and the players, I've decided to just tone it down--for the sake of the players, and to keep the adventure rolling.
Vaelan 10-04-05, 10:50 PM	Oh I dunno. A bard that in combat sticks to the routine of "Haste the party while they're close together, then sing, then either debuff an enemy or buff a party member with spells", and out of combat makes use of his vast skillset is a huge asset to a party. That's a well played bard. And if that well-played Bard sets his mind to it, the DM will likely be quite annoyed at the social and tactical advantages the party should enjoy. How about that punishment spell that Clerics get? Mark of Justice or Symbol of Something or Other? Great fun to be had with those. "Mark wil activate when bard tells lies." Glibness, a Bard spell, trumps magical attempts to discern the truth about his statements. The Mark will do nothing more than make his lies seem more authentic. A well-played Bard will turn everything to his advantage, and if you're nice to him, he'll probably work out something for you as well.
20goingon1232 10-04-05, 11:25 PM	And if that well-played Bard sets his mind to it, the DM will likely be quite annoyed at the social and tactical advantages the party should enjoy. Glibness, a Bard spell, trumps magical attempts to discern the truth about his statements. The Mark will do nothing more than make his lies seem more authentic. A well-played Bard will turn everything to his advantage, and if you're nice to him, he'll probably work out something for you as well. I think it is a DC 30 save/check for that to work. Not that I care. By the time the bard gets Glibness, there is a lot of other things a cleric can do that will totally ruin his day, the least of which are the Symbols (pain, death, etc.) inscribed on his favourite musical instrument.
nick_machine 10-05-05, 07:25 PM	Yeah. All that is great and all, but its over! I'm just simply toning it down. Besides, I don't feel like replacing instruments because of one Symbol or another on it!
Vaelan 10-06-05, 01:08 PM	I think it is a DC 30 save/check for that to work. CL check for the cleric with a DC equal to 15 + the bard's CL. Not that I care. By the time the bard gets Glibness, there is a lot of other things a cleric can do that will totally ruin his day, the least of which are the Symbols (pain, death, etc.) inscribed on his favourite musical instrument. Symbol of Pain and Death are Evil, and most clerics are Good. Also, a cantrip will summon him a new instrument, assuming he doesn't use singing or oratory to perform. Further, he gets Glibness at level 7 while clerics get Symbol at level 9. By the time a Cleric has Symbol, a Bard has Dispel Magic. Lastly, symbols cost money, which could be put to much better use elsewhere. A decent Cleric wouldn't even bother trying such petty things. Then again, a decent Bard wouldn't provoke such petty things.
yellowdingo 10-07-05, 01:22 AM	A sack full of gold and all he did was play music while the rest went sword to sword with a bunch of hireswords. "Hey I'm a troubador, Its what I do!" It had been a hard walk back from the market place. The duel was fresh in their minds. Carlito was seriously injured and they would need to get him help with the Physician. A woman stood with her hand on her hips in the archway of a private residence. Roberto walked at the back of the group. His precious Guitar on his shoulder. "Hello there." She eyed Roberto up and down. Roberto knew her trade. "You fellows go on without me. This flower needs my musical talents." Isabeau led him up the stairs. Phillip the Thug stepped from the Bead Curtain to the Kitchen. Was this her Husband? Phillip the Thug smiled. "Dear Sir." "Toromadios sends his regards!" Oh no. Not good. "Companions! A little Help!" Roberto was screaming. Up the street the Companions had considered halting to rescue their friend. "Please Sir, not my hands, they are my livelyhood." A Consentual decision from his friends. No. Not today. Something shattered. "Please Sir, why my guitar? Oh, its OK, I can...Oh no My Guitar!" Carlito coughed with laughter. "Remind me to send Toromadios some fruit!" Roberto was thrown from the second floor window and slammed onto the cobblestone street. His wrecked guitar landed on him. "And some flowers for his Wife."