Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShubNiggurath 09-23-06, 02:42 PM	Hello everybody, I am playing in a homebrew campaign and our recurring BBEG in the last two adventures has been a Succubus. She already escaped us twice since she always manages to charm our party barbarian. The problem is that our Mystic Theurge, the only character in the group that was able to cast Protection from Evil, left us (real world problem), so now we are heading for the final showdown with the Succubus (that has charmed the ruling council of a republic, so that they would not send an army to rescue our village besieged by werebeasts) without Protection from Evil! Can any of you think about a way to defeat a Succubus without protection from evil and clerical spells in general? In our group we have: Half Orc barbaria, Half orc rogue, Human druid, Human ranger, Human sorcerer, all 6th level. We are not able to craft anything but we may able to buy some magic items (no custom magic item though) The only sources allowed are Core+Complete warrior+Complete divine+Complete arcane
wonlee76 09-23-06, 02:44 PM	Buy a Potion or Scroll of Protection from evil.
aotrscommander 09-23-06, 02:55 PM	Buy one or more potions of Owl's Wisdom for the barbarian an anyone else who's got a low will save. Invisibilty (spell or scroll) and Sneak Attack to death (normally Succubi have low hp to CR). Magic Missile (wand or spell) to death (assuming the sorcerer can penetrate SR with reasonable ease). A bit more detail on the party (especially what spells the sorcerer has) would be helpful.
Asciiman 09-23-06, 03:30 PM	Buy a Potion or Scroll of Protection from evil. End of story.
Sapp 09-23-06, 06:11 PM	The DC of Charm Monster is high, but don't forget the +5 save and the opposed charisma checks because the Succubus is known by the party and an obvious enemy. Other than that, I suggest you get a scroll or two of dimensional anchor unless your DM tends not to retreat with his monsters.
ShubNiggurath 09-24-06, 05:22 AM	Thanks for the replies... I need to ask you guys some clarifications though. 1)Potions of PfE is a VERY good idea, but we are in a small town, so we probably will not able to buy one for each of us... can you buy a potion of Magic circle against evil? Does it even exist? 2)Scrolls of PfE(/MCaE?)? Can the sorcerer use it even if he didn't choose that spell? 3)What about a wand of PfE? Does it exist? Can any of us use it? 4)Dimensional anchor is a good idea, but can we use it? We are only 6th level... can you cast from scrolls spells of higher level than what you can cast? Can a 1st level wizard cast Meteor Swarm from a scroll (if he somehow manages to find it)? ...about the sorcerer's spells, he chose only direct damage spells (fireball, scorching ray, magic missile, and so on). He didn't get invisibility, too!
Yak of Darkness 09-24-06, 05:40 AM	4)Dimensional anchor is a good idea, but can we use it? We are only 6th level... can you cast from scrolls spells of higher level than what you can cast? Can a 1st level wizard cast Meteor Swarm from a scroll (if he somehow manages to find it)?Yes. To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) The user must have the spell on his or her class list. The user must have the requisite ability score. If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.Something like your first-level wizard busting out a meteor swarm is difficult, but totally possible. Using dimensional anchor at 6th level is, on the other hand, a breeze. ...about the sorcerer's spells, he chose only direct damage spells (fireball, scorching ray, magic missile, and so on). He didn't get invisibility, too!Okay, new plan. Start with "Step one: smack the sorcerer upside the head." Some direct damage? Good idea. Completely ignoring utility spells? Smack him. :P
Robert Craven 09-24-06, 07:47 AM	Silence on the barb? The charm spell (and spelllike ability) is verbal. So it cannot be used in silence. The positive side effect is that you may be able to sneak up on her. Or just make sure your barb does not hear anything for a certain time, either by magic or even non-magic means. And by the way: It is really hard to charm a raging barbarian. (+2 bonus on Will saves)
runestar 09-24-06, 08:04 AM	Charm monster as a SLA has no verbal component.:P As per the MM, a succubus has a concentration score of 10. So even if you try to get within threat range and force it to cast defensively, it still succeeds on a 9 or more.:( What offensive spells does your sorc have? I was thinking of having the sorc ready an action each round to cast a damage spell at the succubus every time she attempts to use her charm monster SLA. The idea is to force a high concentration check that she will fail most of the time. At dc10+damage dealt, you will ideally want to deal at least 15+ damage each time. If you can master around 20 damage per shot, success is more or less guaranteed.:) So the strategy is to have your party sorc stand back and ready actions to disrupt the succubus' attempt to use charm person, and the rest of the party just charge in....:P Is my tactic too naive and straightforward? Is there something I have missed?:embarrass
ShubNiggurath 09-24-06, 08:12 AM	Thanks Yak, that's really useful! What do you think about the PfE wand? Can it be made (can't find it in the DMG) Robert Craven, we don't have a cleric in the group (that's the point of the whole thread) so no silence for us. Also, correct me if I am wrong: 6th level barb: base save 3+0 (wis)+5 (he knows that she is an enemy)+2 (rage)=+10. The succubus charm DC is 22 so more than 50% chance of our barb turning on us (or at least grappling someone of us to stop him attacking). That's too high to risk. Also, I think that you can be charmed even if you cannot hear anything. You will just recognize the caster as your friend and thus try to stop anyone from harming him. Or are deaf people immune to charm? Guys, what about this plan? 1 wand of PfE (750 gp) 1 scroll of Magic circle against evil (375 gp) 4 potions of PfE (50X4=200 gp) 3 scrolls of Dimensional Anchor (700x4=2800 gp) Total = 4125 gp That's about all of our money, but I think that it's the only way to have a good chance... our sorcerer will fail 50% of the time the dimensional anchor (SR) and we need a backup plan if we are separated (potions) or surprised (Magic circle against evil). The only question left is if the DM will allow the PfE wand... and if we can find all this stuff. EDIT: thanks for your suggestion, runestar. The problem is the succubus' SR... she will resist the sorcerer spell 50% of the time. So on the first turn the barb as something like a 30% chance of getting charmed (50% resisting the spell and 60% failure chance for the barb save).... then he gets close and attacks her. On the next turn the barb has a 15% of getting charmed (50% casting on the defensive*50% SR*60% failed save). The tactic is sound, but it is still VERY risky. And I assumed that we get the initiative...
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-24-06, 08:17 AM	Is my tactic too naive and straightforward? Is there something I have missed?:embarrass Only that the sorcerer is going to have to punch through SR 18 and get around immunity to electricity, and resistance 10 to acid, cold, and fire damage. If he can do that reliably it's all good.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-24-06, 08:21 AM	Also, I think that you can be charmed even if you cannot hear anything. You will just recognize the caster as your friend and thus try to stop anyone from harming him. Or are deaf people immune to charm? You can be charmed when you can't hear anything, though your "friend" can't really ask you to do much. Friendship only takes you so far, though -- the barbarian should simply react as he would if two of his real friends were fighting each other. If that means knocking everyone out with nonlethal damage before they can kill each other with lethal, and sorting it out later, so be it. ;) (This coming from a long-time barbarian player who regularly resolved heated disputes between party members by slamming their heads together and dragging their unconscious asses off to the inn to sleep it off and ponder whether they really wanted to fight anymore.)
runestar 09-24-06, 09:20 AM	Only that the sorcerer is going to have to punch through SR 18 and get around immunity to electricity, and resistance 10 to acid, cold, and fire damage. I was going to suggest empowered magic missiles, then I remembered it was a full round action...:( What spells do your spellcasters have anyways?:) I was working off the assumption that protection from evil is not available. I assume the sorc does not have it as one of his spells known?:P The problem with a wand of prot from evil is that to craft it, you still need someone to provide the casting of said spell, which brings us back to your initial problem.:P I am not sure how readily available magic eq is in your campaign though...If you can buy some scrolls, then yeah, you are good to go. Watch out for charmed minions though.
ShubNiggurath 09-24-06, 09:38 AM	None of us has any crafting feat, so our only option is to buy the stuff. And since we are in a small town (and we need to assault the town's castle to get to the succubus, that has probably charmed the town council) we probably will not able to buy that much stuff. That was more of a wishlist than anything else. I am a druid, so I have the full druid list available :p (core+complete). The sorcerer has only blasting spells available (he plays his character as an artillery unit)
runestar 09-24-06, 10:10 AM	There is also the problem that on the off-chance, the succubus just might be able to successfully sumon a vrock...:( Small, but a lucky roll can easily turn the tables against you...You have any plans on dealing with this?:P
Hack and Smasher 09-24-06, 10:22 AM	I suggest filling it with cold iron, get your barb a compsite bow and some cold iron arrow and get him to stay the hell away from it, charm its charm spells only have a range of 55 ft so range is your friend. Also if you can bypass its Dr its HP suck if the ranger and rogue jump it with cold iron weapons they have a pretty good chance of just shiving it. If you were a level higher i'd suggest getting the druid to summon a unicorn and get the barb to stand next to it or ride it but your not. Another "tactic" is to get the druid to fly above it as a hawk then wild shape into the biggest thing he can hardly a friendly plan but it'll do plenlty of damage. Oh buy potions of PfE most good churchs should have some one who can make them.
ShubNiggurath 09-24-06, 10:47 AM	The Vrock.... you jusst reminded me that last time it was almost a TPK since she got lucky with the summoning roll. DR... good point. We need an oil of align weapon too!!! This stuff is getting expensive... I am not worried too much about her DR. If we can dimensional anchor her and we are protected from evil, our barbarian and our ranger can PA her to death quite easily. Since she *lives* in a castle with the charmed councilors of the republic, if she is able to call for help, we will need to deal with hundreds of guards...the Vrock could be the least of our problems. I am quite confident that we can get in the castle, but I have no idea on how we can kill her without her being able to call for help, charm us or teleport away... if we discover where she is exactly, we could pre-buff with PfE against charm and we may manage to dimensional anchor her... but how to stop her from calling for help? Silence would be nice here... grapple maybe? But the barb would lose a ton of levels that way... I could summon a lion to grapple her, though...
Hack and Smasher 09-24-06, 11:11 AM	If you gonna summon i'd recommend earth elementals because they're immune to charm, other wise you'll end up fighting your own summons. Also just buy cold iron weapons rather than align fang oils there cheaper and you shouldn't be losing much damage since you don't have access the big nasty forms unless your using fleshraker if you are go nuts.
ShubNiggurath 09-24-06, 11:49 AM	A cold iron weapon is a good idea, but getting through her DR is not our main problem. Also they are not going to help if she summons a vrock. Since I am 6th level the best elemental I can summon is a small one... too crappy even to think about it (11hp and +1BAB). Also elementals are not immune to charm (only to sleep, poison, paralysis, stunning and crits, IIRC)
kelvinaw273 09-24-06, 11:59 AM	... has anyone remembered that the succubus can teleport? Were I running the succubus, she would already be visiting player's rooms at the inn and charming them in advance. By the time they face her, half the party will jump on the other half! Oh, and she'd be surrounded by charmed guards. Best method for taking her out? Well remember she isn't good at melee fighting. Your best bet is for the Druid to locate her in birdy form, buff with magic fang and anything else he can and then attack in wildshape (bear or wolf or whatever the hardest he can manage is) with the sorcorer backing him up. Don't even take the characters with low will saves along. If you do all face her at once, just concentrate on keeping one melee -liscous character in the clear and fighting her. What you ideally need is a monk with a magic and/or cold-iron weapon. They have the will saves (plus high wisdom, plus still mind) to have good odds of resisting and the combat power to take down a succubus.
Tiefling_Warlock 09-24-06, 02:13 PM	Why not have the Barb/Ranger/Rogue ready attacks on her with the sorc, push that concentration check up?
ShubNiggurath 09-24-06, 02:34 PM	Good idea... the only problems are: 1)She won't be alone 2)We need to get close (we can push through her DR with PA only) and she can charm/teleport
DarkNick 09-24-06, 03:54 PM	Do some hard yards - just wade in and attack.
Hack and Smasher 09-24-06, 04:39 PM	1. Attack late at night when it will be sleeping since your party is geared up to stealth, if your ranger and rogue can't manage to sneak in themselves carring the druid as something small like i dunno a snake coil around an arm then really you beyond help. 2.I suggest filling it with cold iron The guy who said this is a genius since cold iron weapons are cheap just x2 cost and completly bypass its DR 10/ cold iron OR good.
Sapp 09-24-06, 05:51 PM	Non-native outsiders do not eat, drink, or sleep.
Robert Craven 09-24-06, 06:16 PM	Non-native outsiders do not eat, drink, or sleep. Well, but Succubi should have other free-time activities apart from sleeping or eating ;)
Sapp 09-24-06, 06:22 PM	I only meant to remind that Succubi don't "sleep". I didn't mean to imply that they don't "sleep around".
PhaedrusXY 09-24-06, 06:31 PM	Well, but Succubi should have other free-time activities apart from sleeping or eating ;):heehee Yeah, get some Cold Iron arrows, and have the ranger and barbarian ready attacks against her whenever she begins to use any of her "powers". They should just stay out of range of her Charm ability. The problem with using readied actions is that SLAs don't have any components at all, and even telling that she is using one could be a problem. One thing that I haven't seen mentioned: if she can't see you, she can't target you with Charm Person or anything else. So something like Obscuring Mist + Summoned critters with scent + improved grab could come in handy here. Make sure the Sorcerer gets a Dimensional Anchor on her, otherwise she'll likely get away. She will have to make a concentration check to use her SLAs while being grappled, though (as far as I know). How the heck are you guys even telling who she is, anyway? Succubi can Change Shape at will. She could teleport away, and come right back as someone you trust, or even another party member if you get separated.
Kradlo 09-24-06, 06:45 PM	Remember the words of Sun Tzu: "All warfare is based on deception." So far, you are asking for the best advice on how to charge into the very teeth of the succubi's protection. Sun Tzu advised that if your enemy is well defended, attack him in a place that he must go to defend, thus leaving his fortress and rendering him vulnerable. Your succubus is building a powerbase by use of her charm ability. That means that she has devoted much of her power and attention to maintaining control of this republic. To draw her out, you can either create a threat that she must address personally, or create a lure that she cannot resist. Rumors of a powerful paladin demonslayer arriving could be spread, which would cause some consternation for the succubus. Whatever means you choose, draw her to you so that you choose the field of battle. Since your characters have faced her before, you may have learned of her Damage Resistance firsthand. If you've also learned IC that she is vulnerable to cold iron, then make certain to arm yourself with cold iron weapons, particularly arrows and crossbow bolts. The dimensional anchor is a good tactic to keep her trapped so you can finish her off. If you can somehow create an antimagic field (perhaps by scroll), that would prevent her from using her charm ability, and could keep her from using other magical abilities while you attack. Remember that her flight is not magical (she has wings, after all), so she may just try to fly outside the range of the antimagic field. Good luck!
Sapp 09-24-06, 07:45 PM	How the heck are you guys even telling who she is, anyway? Succubi can Change Shape at will. She could teleport away, and come right back as someone you trust, or even another party member if you get separated. Yeah, it would be an uphill battle in the gaming group I'm in. It's CR 7 after all. Let's just hope their dimensional anchor works so she can't do as you suggested.
The Simbul 09-24-06, 09:09 PM	First off, unless one of the characters in your party have ranks in Knowledge (the planes), or had paid an NPC sage for such information, then none of the advice here will avail you. The fact that she has SR 18, immunity to electricity/poison, acid/fire/cold resistance 10, change shape, energy drain, and the full list of her spell-like abilities are NOT common knowledge. Secondly, you need protection from evil, magic circle against evil, dispel evil, or death ward to counter her vast arsenal of abilities. Protection from evil and magic circle against evil will block her charm monster and summoning abilities, but they wont do a damn thing against her energy drain or her suggestion. Death Ward can block her energy drain attack, and Dispel evil can undo her charm or suggestion, and send her back to the Abyss, but your party class roster doesnt seem to give you access to these latter two (at least not both). Under normal circumstances she can just resort to suggestion spells if the party has PfE up, because the mental influence immunity provided by PfE doesnt apply to compulsion effects that produce a single command or a random action (i.e. it doesnt block suggestion, hold, confusion, irresistable dance, etc. Of the spells in the PHB, the only ones it covers are charm, domination, and effects that specifically branch off of those two). But since you guys dont even have ready access to PfE, it looks like you are quite screwed. That said, even a small town has magic items for sale, and you can buy potions of protection from evil in any Hamlet or higher category population center. Third, if you encounter the succubus in a combat scenario, where you are pitting her charm monster 1/round against each of your PCs charging or casting or readying an action to disrupt her casting, then the DM isnt playing her very well at all. The Succubus is a clever adversary, and the DM should play her as such. The PCs should not find her in the typical BBEG room, without any minions, to face them in a skirmish. Her abilities are entirely built around subterfuge, diplomacy, negotiation, beguiling allies/enemies, and stealth kills. With an INT of 16 and her roster of abilities, she should encounter the PCs on her terms, and after she has managed to weaken them or test their party morale. Her base CHA score is 26. That means her Bluff, Diplomacy, and Disguise check modifiers are FAR beyond the sense motive ranks of party, and the DCs of her special attacks are overpowering against nearly any PC of that level. The Succubus has a base Disguise modifier of +17 (+19 when acting in character). That is NOT including the +10 circumstane bonus she gains when using her change shape supernatural ability, which makes her total disguise modifier +27 (+29 when acting). No 6th level character will be able to see through a +29 disguise check, and you guys wont have access to true seeing for another six levels. The Succubus can be anywhere, disguised as anyone, and you wont realize it is her until it is too late. The Succubus has telepathy at a range of 100ft. Combined with the fact that SLA's have no components, she has carte blanche to use any of her charm or suggestion powers, without regard to being silenced (which the party doesnt have anyways), and without revealing herself (i.e. if hiding or disguised). She can individually put doubts into the minds of the party from a distance, and put them at each others throats with suggestions. She can tell the barbarian that the sorcerer is actually the succubus in disguise, and is waiting until they fall asleep to strike. She can start a bar-fight between your PCs and the entire bar..along with most of the bystanders outside...the town guard...and anyone else who comes to the scene and doesnt have an insane will save....all while disguised and hiding in the corner in the guise of a passed-out drunkard. She can snap a twig outside of the party's camp, alerting whoever is on watch, and then send a suggestion to him that he "should keep silent and not wake the party, because they need their rest and its probably just a small animal, but that he should go check it out himself". Once she has him alone in the woods, she can charm/suggest him to keep silent and kiss her, and them proceed to drain the life from him. The Succubus then returns to the sleeping party, and uses charm/suggestion spells on them in their sleep (to which they get no saving throws) and one by one takes them off to kill them, or she simply takes the place of the character she just vanquished. When it comes to the actual encounter, she can be surrounded with enough minions to keep the party from attacking or engaging her for a few rounds, which will be enough time for her to teleport away, or to hit the party with suggestion spells that they should "drop their weapons and surrender". Surrounded with bodyguards, she can get her AC as high as 36 through the aid another action, or she can send one to disrupt the party's spells. Moreover, her lack of any need of sleep, combined with her darkvision, and her listen and spot modifiers of +19, makes stealth or a nightime ambush quite foolhardy.
PhaedrusXY 09-24-06, 09:23 PM	Simbul, your post is well done, except for the part about the sleeping characters getting no save vs. Charm and Suggestion. That is simply not true. Sleeping characters are considered willing vs. spells that specifically only work on willing targets. However, they still get saving throws.
The Simbul 09-24-06, 09:41 PM	Simbul, your post is well done, except for the part about the sleeping characters getting no save vs. Charm and Suggestion. That is simply not true. Sleeping characters are considered willing vs. spells that specifically only work on willing targets. However, they still get saving throws. I see, I had doubts about that one, but I didnt have time to go back and check, thanks. That said, she can still execute a TPK under that scenario, by taking them out one at a time.
ShubNiggurath 09-25-06, 03:37 AM	Simbul, thank you very much for your post. I think that you are right: we were probably picturing the best possible scenario for us, the one where we would ambush her. While I agree that it's unlickely that this happens, I think that you exaggerated on the opposite direction: she has a plan (taking control of the border town of the republic, so that our cry for help of our village, besieged by werebeasts, does not reach the ruling council of the republic, and thus no help is sent). Why should she spend time with a pitiful group of adventurers like us since she fooled us already twice? Also, my saving throw against her charm is +10 (monk1/druid 5 wis 18) so I am going to be successful about 50% of the times. It will not be easy for her. Her disguise is +19+10=+29 but my spot is +12+10 (intimate knowledge, I spent more than 24 hours with her... yes, I managed to get 5 fortitude saving throws in a row, she is the succubus in the forge of fury module), so I am going to be able to recognize her about 1/3 of the times. A risky business for her. Btw, we rolled a very good knowledge "the planes" roll, + after the second time we met her we went to a church and gathered all the possible infos on her, so our player knowledge and character knowledge in this case are about the same. Kradlo, what you say is absolutely right, but: 1)I can't think of any way to lure her to a battlefield of our chosing. She would probably do everything through her minions. 2)She does not expect us. Probably. Anyhow, our plan is to sneak into the castle and murder her. I managed to get a forged pass for the castle, so I am going to observe her in wildshape form till she takes someone to her room to... ahem... kiss him. Then we will strike. I am quite confident that we can kill her (if we manage to find a dimensional anchor scroll, among the other things). She will probably manage to cry for help in the meantime, though, so I think we will die killed by the charmed guards... maybe if we manage to be just taken in prison they will free us after the charm wears off. Important question: when you kill a succubus does her body stay and revert in demon form, stay in humanoid form, or disappear to the lower planes?
Sapp 09-25-06, 03:45 AM	Be careful in wildshape form, if your alignment is Good. She can detect good at will. She might get suspicious about you, even in wildshape form, and cast it to check you out. She'll know something is up when she detects some goodness in an animal (which should always be Neutral). If you're worried she might try that, you might want to consider the 1st level Bardic spell undetectable alignment. It lasts 24 hours regardless of caster level. Plenty of time to "observe her."
ShubNiggurath 09-25-06, 04:22 AM	Thanks Sapp. Luckily I am TN (I was LN, but changed alignment due to my master's death... a long story)
PhaedrusXY 09-25-06, 03:00 PM	Important question: when you kill a succubus does her body stay and revert in demon form, stay in humanoid form, or disappear to the lower planes?This will probably vary greatly from DM to DM, but per the rules, I think it would revert to demonic form and stay there. Change Shape A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using change shape reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use change shape to take the form of a creature with a template. Changing shape results in the following changes to the creature: Summoned creatures dissappear, but that is a function of how summoning works, not the creatures themselves. Similiarly, demons and other creatures that are called (Gate, Planar Binding, etc) do not dissappear when killed. Calling A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled. So barring houserules and other things by your DM, she should revert to her true form when killed and her body should not dissapate.
Judging Eagle 09-25-06, 04:30 PM	And to think that going after an 8th lvl cleric (and his platoon of soldiers) was tough. you should talk to your DM about having your party perform some 'mercenary' adventures (one or two) to get the cash you need to pull your tricks off. Also, you may want to consider having a player take over the old Mystic Theurge Character. The old MT didn't get killed, did he? I'm sure that he would stick around in-game, even if his player had vanished. We do that at our gaming group a lot, b/c not everyone can always show up we have players take on other PC sheets so that the party's strength doesn't vary drastically from session to session.
solbergb 09-25-06, 04:54 PM	Some typical tactics. 1. Pre-emptive charm on the barbarian and others with squishy minds from the person in the party with best charisma. Useful if you have a bard or specialist wizard who can't cast prot evil. Similar pre-emptive tactics might be just scattering the party so anyone charmed has a harder time messing with party members. Charm person and suggestion are both short range spells. Fight her at long range if you can. (see also #4) 2. Potions of prot evil. It's a first level cleric spell. Any temple that makes potions of CLW can be commissioned to make prot evil instead, although you may have to wait a week or two to get enough for the whole party. This is worth doing even if you kill the succubus. Every fighter needs a potion of prot evil. 3. scrolls of circle of prot evil. Harder to come by, and you may need UMD to get it to work. Wands of prot evil are in the same category. 4. Kill the stupid succubus before it hoses up your party. She only has 33ish hitpoints. A well built 6th level archer with cold iron arrows can often kill a succubus in one volley. 5. Lesser globe of invunlerability (but if you can cast that, your arcanist can probably cast prot evil) 6. Most importantly read what charm does and does not do. It makes you friendly, but doesn't enslave you. Your best friend is now fighting with your other friends. The ususal response is not "power attack full on my buddy the wizard." It is usually that you try to argue with your friends to stop fighting, or perhaps use nonlethal combat on whomever is doing the most lethal damage to your best friend. Suggestion can be countered with silence. Dominate has fewer limits than charm person. It really does need a prot evil.
Rhomphaia 09-25-06, 08:02 PM	Are you being railroaded into the encounter? If not, then do some more adventuring. At best, this is a very difficult boss encounter simply due to the abilities a succubus has. If you do more adventuring, you will gain a level, maybe two, and get some much-needed money to get gear. If you are being railroaded, then good luck. Even with proper equipment, it will only be luck that you survive.
Judging Eagle 09-25-06, 08:43 PM	Are you being railroaded into the encounter? If not, then do some more adventuring. At best, this is a very difficult boss encounter simply due to the abilities a succubus has. If you do more adventuring, you will gain a level, maybe two, and get some much-needed money to get gear. If you are being railroaded, then good luck. Even with proper equipment, it will only be luck that you survive. My thoughts exactly. The CR difference maks this a not-easy encounter to deal with. Sniping her could work as well. Oh, I've got it. You've got a wizard? and you're 5th+ lvl? 1. Get a scroll of Explosive Rune and a Scroll of Dispell Magic. 2. Learn both spells and add them to your spell book. 3. Buy 2 or mroe 100 page books for 15 GP. 4. Spend all of your slots casting Explosive runes onto each side of the book's pages. That should be 400 explosive runes... Okay, that's a bit overkill, but say 12 pages would do; that's 24 * 6d6 = 144d6 hmm... say.. she has 40 hp max; 40/6 = 6 explosive runes. Go with 8 to be safe. So that's 48d6 (48-288 damage; average = 168, more than enough to one-shot the succubus). 5. Tie the 4 pages to an arrow. 6. Get your barbarian all raged up and buffed with Cat's Grace. Get your best ranged attacker to get the best bow you can get and when you find the Succubus, attack the ground she's on (AC: 10) 7. You have a max range on your Dispell Magic spell of 100 + 10 feet per caster level. In this case I'm guessing 160 feet. 8. Before the arrow is launched, ready an action to cast an area dispel magic on the area centred where the arrow will strike. Since you can 'intenionally' fail any Check (you can take 10 and 20 on a lot of things; but taking '1' is also an option, anyone can sabotage something) 9. Hopefully, the arrow will land in the square that she is in and you will cast your dispell magic; but snce you 'failed' your Dispell check, all of the Explosive Runes are set off. Oops. Now the Succubus will take full damage with no save. If you miss, the arrow will scatter 10' per range increment you fired from (shoot from 110 feet or less if at all possible, then fall back) so she can make a save for half damage. You can mitigate the save by having more than one arrow fired at the same square, so that if one misses, perhaps the other may hit, and even if both mis, hopefully the combination of damage will kill her. Actually, us a many arrows with 2 or 4 sheets if you can, you'll get more chances of hitting her. Once the arrows have landed, then dispell and she's out. The barbarian, rogue and ranger could make a shot each (just use 1-3 pages per arrow). The rogue could have the wizard make him some scrolls of True Strike, so that he can 'cast' it using UMD, have a +20 on his attack roll and shoot the succubus directly. then have the caster centre the dispell on the succubus and at that point she's toast.
runestar 09-25-06, 10:32 PM	The problem, as pointed out so explicitly by the Simbul, is that the succubus is more likely to come to you, probably when you are at your weakest, rather than you going to her, after your party is all fully buffed. She is unlikely to be found standing in the middle of a large room daftly waiting to face all of you in melee combat. Unless you can find some way to keep prot from evil/silence up 24/7, there will be times when you are vulnerable. That serving wench who just brought your meals up to the room could be that succubus in disguise, proceeding to charm/suggest and sow chaos when you least expect it. She might throw charmed minions at you to force you to expend valuable resources. She can summon a vrock to cause more trouble, and with teleport at will, she should never be caught unawares.:(
The Simbul 09-26-06, 12:24 AM	Simbul, thank you very much for your post. I think that you are right: we were probably picturing the best possible scenario for us, the one where we would ambush her. While I agree that it's unlickely that this happens, I think that you exaggerated on the opposite direction: she has a plan (taking control of the border town of the republic, so that our cry for help of our village, besieged by werebeasts, does not reach the ruling council of the republic, and thus no help is sent). Why should she spend time with a pitiful group of adventurers like us since she fooled us already twice?Because the deeds and rumors of adventurers do not go un-noticed, especially in the whispers of royal courts and political gatherings. Also, my saving throw against her charm is +10 (monk1/druid 5 wis 18) so I am going to be successful about 50% of the times. It will not be easy for her.Well the DC is 22 for Charm Monster, which gives you a 40% chance of succeeding your saving throw. Meanwhile, while you guys are considering use of potions of protection from evil, scrolls of silence, and wands of dimensional anchor, there is nothing to prevent her from having things like potions of eagle's splendor, or a cloak of charisma amid her treasure/NPC equipment, which can up the DC by another 1-2 points, and in turn decrease your chance of success down to 30-35%. But that is not the key point here, because it is not a matter of her charming you, its a matter of her charming the OTHER members of the party who do not have a wisdom score of 18 and are not members of good will save classes.Her disguise is +19+10=+29 but my spot is +12+10 (intimate knowledge, I spent more than 24 hours with her... yes, I managed to get 5 fortitude saving throws in a row, she is the succubus in the forge of fury module), so I am going to be able to recognize her about 1/3 of the times. A risky business for her.I hate to keep ripping up your plans, but you are mistaken with the disguise skill rules here. The +10 modifier for "initimate knowledge" doesnt apply here at all. That modifier is used when the person using the skill is attempting to impersonate a specific individual, and when someone who knows the impersonated individual encounters the disguised character masquerading as them, then their spot check recieves that bonus. If you are disguised as the king, and you have an encounter with the queen (or the king's mistress, vizier, steward, long-serving valet, etc) then the queen (or whoever) us entitled to a +10 bonus to their spot check to notice the disguise, due to their initimate knowledge of the person. The bonus does not apply if you happen to know the person behind the disguise.Anyhow, our plan is to sneak into the castle and murder her. I managed to get a forged pass for the castle, so I am going to observe her in wildshape form till she takes someone to her room to... ahem... kiss him. Then we will strike. I am quite confident that we can kill her (if we manage to find a dimensional anchor scroll, among the other things).Again, I hate to keep ripping apart your plans; A 5th level Druid can only take the form of a small or medium sized animal. The general consensus is that if a stray eagle is flying around the inside of the castle, aimlessly following notable figures, then something is amiss, and it will arouse suspicion. Moreover, your hide check in such a form will roughtly be 1d20 + 2 (modified new DEX score) + 4 (size small) + skill ranks. Even if you DO have maxed ranks in hide, your total max hide modifier as a (3ft long) eagle is going to be +15..which gives you barely a 30% chance of successfuly avoiding her spot check. Moreover, if she is keeping an entire court under control, then i imagine she is using detect thoughts 24/7 to pre-empt any possibility of her charm spells being broken, or something coming in to ruin her hold. Given that she doesnt have to eat, sleep, or do much of anything besides talk, i dont see that as much of a problem. I imagine if she sees three men and a small animal, but senses the intelligence of four men, then you are dead. She will probably manage to cry for help in the meantime, though, so I think we will die killed by the charmed guards... maybe if we manage to be just taken in prison they will free us after the charm wears off.Again, a castle is not a vacant alley where you can jump a BBEG unoticed. Given her dependence on allies/minions, I would expect her to have enough guards around her to boost the EL of the encounter at least to 8, which is a perfectly appropriate "boss encounter" for a party of your size and level.
The Simbul 09-26-06, 12:36 AM	My thoughts exactly. The CR difference maks this a not-easy encounter to deal with. Sniping her could work as well. Oh, I've got it. You've got a wizard? and you're 5th+ lvl? 1. Get a scroll of Explosive Rune and a Scroll of Dispell Magic. 2. Learn both spells and add them to your spell book. 3. Buy 2 or mroe 100 page books for 15 GP. 4. Spend all of your slots casting Explosive runes onto each side of the book's pages. That should be 400 explosive runes... Okay, that's a bit overkill, but say 12 pages would do; that's 24 * 6d6 = 144d6 hmm... say.. she has 40 hp max; 40/6 = 6 explosive runes. Go with 8 to be safe. So that's 48d6 (48-288 damage; average = 168, more than enough to one-shot the succubus). 5. Tie the 4 pages to an arrow. 6. Get your barbarian all raged up and buffed with Cat's Grace. Get your best ranged attacker to get the best bow you can get and when you find the Succubus, attack the ground she's on (AC: 10) 7. You have a max range on your Dispell Magic spell of 100 + 10 feet per caster level. In this case I'm guessing 160 feet. 8. Before the arrow is launched, ready an action to cast an area dispel magic on the area centred where the arrow will strike. Since you can 'intenionally' fail any Check (you can take 10 and 20 on a lot of things; but taking '1' is also an option, anyone can sabotage something) 9. Hopefully, the arrow will land in the square that she is in and you will cast your dispell magic; but snce you 'failed' your Dispell check, all of the Explosive Runes are set off. Oops. Now the Succubus will take full damage with no save. If you miss, the arrow will scatter 10' per range increment you fired from (shoot from 110 feet or less if at all possible, then fall back) so she can make a save for half damage. You can mitigate the save by having more than one arrow fired at the same square, so that if one misses, perhaps the other may hit, and even if both mis, hopefully the combination of damage will kill her. Actually, us a many arrows with 2 or 4 sheets if you can, you'll get more chances of hitting her. Once the arrows have landed, then dispell and she's out. The barbarian, rogue and ranger could make a shot each (just use 1-3 pages per arrow). The rogue could have the wizard make him some scrolls of True Strike, so that he can 'cast' it using UMD, have a +20 on his attack roll and shoot the succubus directly. then have the caster centre the dispell on the succubus and at that point she's toast.Why would she appear in her normal form, aimlessly wandering around to be ambushed? On the prime material plane, the succubus should always be in an innocuous disguise...she has no reason to revert back to her normal form because (unless she is elite or a PC) her physical ability scores are less than those of the typical humanoid (warriors) presented in the MM, and since all of her powers can be used regardless of what form she is in. In addition, her spot check is likely to be higher than the one possessed by the party, enough to allow her to notice them long before they notice her, and which would give her a suprise round to act.
Sapp 09-26-06, 05:31 AM	Well the DC is 22 for Charm Monster, which gives you a 40% chance of succeeding your saving throw. Meanwhile, while you guys are considering use of potions of protection from evil, scrolls of silence, and wands of dimensional anchor, there is nothing to prevent her from having things like potions of eagle's splendor, or a cloak of charisma amid her treasure/NPC equipment, which can up the DC by another 1-2 points, and in turn decrease your chance of success down to 30-35%. But that is not the key point here, because it is not a matter of her charming you, its a matter of her charming the OTHER members of the party who do not have a wisdom score of 18 and are not members of good will save classes. I'd like to make a few minor points. To save against DC 22 with Will save of +10 is a 45% chance, not 40%. Also, the PCs get a +5 bonus on their will saves because they know that she is an obvious threat to them. It takes almost no wisdom or intelligence to recognize such an obvious fact. Though it likely won't matter, due to her godly-high Charisma, it's still important to note that she needs to win an opposed Charisma check to force the PCs to do anything they wouldn't normally do. Finally, there may be a reason the DM sent a CR 7 challenge against the party. They could be playing in Eberron and using Action Points, for example. Or they could be using the Unearthed Arcana variant of Action Points. That makes saving against her charm more likely than we give credit for. It also makes it much more likely to penetrate her Spell Resistance and/or hit her with the actual anchor. It might not be that much, but it is something to consider. EDIT: But, man... on your other points. You are brutal.
runestar 09-26-06, 08:29 AM	Also, the PCs get a +5 bonus on their will saves because they know that she is an obvious threat to them. It takes almost no wisdom or intelligence to recognize such an obvious fact. Though it likely won't matter, due to her godly-high Charisma, it's still important to note that she needs to win an opposed Charisma check to force the PCs to do anything they wouldn't normally do. And how will they know that when the succubus could easily be taking form of any commoner around them?;)
Judging Eagle 09-26-06, 10:03 AM	Well, my strategy assumed that the PCs knew who the Succubus was impersonating or acting as. Also, just because sh has a high spot check doesn't mean that she will not take -1 to get check for every 10' of distance (or -11 for 1 bow range increment). The party could get crossbows with Gnomish Sights (A&E Guide) that remove the 1st two range increment penalties (allowing the use to shoot from 240 feet away; so a -24 to her spot check). Remember, distance adds penalties. If the party is hiding it will be harder for her to notice them (or has the Infiltrators Teamwork Benefit; they could all take 10 on hide/move silently). The trick, is luring her out of her fortress. Wrecking her taxation system, having 'demons' be defeated by a troupe of paladins could also do this (get the barb, ranger and rogue to wear heavy armour and use sheilds and 'magic swords (have the wizard cast light on their armour and weapons; heh). Have the wizard summon fiendish creatures and have the summoned creatures 'attack' townsfolk, only to be 'driven off' or 'defeated' by the 'paladins'. Then have the paladins leave. Also, using 2x Silent Images (one for sound, one for shape) and have the Silent Images be of larger or more dangerous demons that are being 'slain' in battle and 'exorcised' by the Paladins and their serveral clerical and wizard allies could force her to come and deal with the 'heroes' on her own. Too bad the 'heroes' always leave before they can be rewarded, to an isolated forest cave. Ward the entrance with Alarm, and if she comes in alone; try the sniping trick; while the party actually sleeps in a tree shelter made by the ranger/barbarian and hidden with leaves and branches by the rogue and ranger. Hiding the cavern or masking it with illusions and having a permanent detect magic item (goggles) to see if the succubus is coming are also a good idea. In any case, this will not be an easy enemy to deal with. You'll have to give her a good reason to leave her fortress; lure her to an appropriate location; and then make sure you can hit her and kill her.
ShubNiggurath 09-26-06, 10:11 AM	Well, I need to thank all the posters for the good suggestions, but Simbul especially: I am here to get my plan ripped so that the DM does not rip me another one on my next session. Let's clear some points: 1) We cannot go away to do side quests or wait or do anything else beside trying to find a way to get the help of the republic since otherwise our village is lost. (Backstory, again: our village is besieged by werebeasts, we went to ask for help from the neighbouring republic and we found out that the succubus charmed them so that we would not get any help). Our only choice besides fighting the succubus is go back to the besieged village and try to find a way to stop an army of werebeasts. 2)We are playing 3.5 core+complete. No action points or UA whatsoever 3) I DO expect that she is not expecting us since she freed us from jail and told us to bugger away. We cleared the dungeon where we were jailed and it took us about 1 day. Nobody went to look for us (maxed out survival to check for tracks). If she wanted to kill us she could have done it already. We are just bugs for her, she told us. 4) Given that she is not expecting us, why should she spend her whole day detecting thoughts? She probably spends her day charming and well... amusing herself. She has a lot of people to control (a whole council, 4-6 people) + her retainers. 5) She needs a private place to level drain people. We want to find it and ambush her here. She MUST be 100% alone there! 6) I will be able to recognize her with 100% accuracy whatever form she has. We are in a 2000 inhabitants town and the only beautiful woman that arrived few days ago it is going to be her. Since she controls all the council she must always keep the same form to be recognized by them. We need just to spy on the councilors and see who is the beautiful woman with them. We spoke to same people in town and everybody knows about 'the stunning beautiful newcomer'. Also we spent just few hours in the town and we will make a show to leave in a few more hours. Then I will sneak back in and get into the castle. then in the night I will let the others in. 6) I want to get in the castle with a NPC that agreed to help us and pose as a seller of combat dogs. I will turn into a dog or something and we will find her room. Then we will ambush her Easy? No. Feasible, given the boundary conditions? Maybe. But not nearly as hopeless as Simbul says
yrogerg 09-26-06, 01:01 PM	My thoughts exactly. The CR difference maks this a not-easy encounter to deal with. Sniping her could work as well. Oh, I've got it. You've got a wizard? and you're 5th+ lvl? 1. Get a scroll of Explosive Rune and a Scroll of Dispell Magic. 2. Learn both spells and add them to your spell book. 3. Buy 2 or mroe 100 page books for 15 GP. 4. Spend all of your slots casting Explosive runes onto each side of the book's pages. That should be 400 explosive runes... Okay, that's a bit overkill, but say 12 pages would do; that's 24 * 6d6 = 144d6 hmm... say.. she has 40 hp max; 40/6 = 6 explosive runes. Go with 8 to be safe. So that's 48d6 (48-288 damage; average = 168, more than enough to one-shot the succubus). 5. Tie the 4 pages to an arrow. 6. Get your barbarian all raged up and buffed with Cat's Grace. Get your best ranged attacker to get the best bow you can get and when you find the Succubus, attack the ground she's on (AC: 10) 7. You have a max range on your Dispell Magic spell of 100 + 10 feet per caster level. In this case I'm guessing 160 feet. 8. Before the arrow is launched, ready an action to cast an area dispel magic on the area centred where the arrow will strike. Since you can 'intenionally' fail any Check (you can take 10 and 20 on a lot of things; but taking '1' is also an option, anyone can sabotage something) 9. Hopefully, the arrow will land in the square that she is in and you will cast your dispell magic; but snce you 'failed' your Dispell check, all of the Explosive Runes are set off. Oops. Now the Succubus will take full damage with no save. If you miss, the arrow will scatter 10' per range increment you fired from (shoot from 110 feet or less if at all possible, then fall back) so she can make a save for half damage. You can mitigate the save by having more than one arrow fired at the same square, so that if one misses, perhaps the other may hit, and even if both mis, hopefully the combination of damage will kill her. Actually, us a many arrows with 2 or 4 sheets if you can, you'll get more chances of hitting her. Once the arrows have landed, then dispell and she's out. The barbarian, rogue and ranger could make a shot each (just use 1-3 pages per arrow). The rogue could have the wizard make him some scrolls of True Strike, so that he can 'cast' it using UMD, have a +20 on his attack roll and shoot the succubus directly. then have the caster centre the dispell on the succubus and at that point she's toast. See, my DM came up with a pretty obvious solution to the "bag o' Runes" trick, based on two features of the spells involved: -The runes damage everything in their burst when they detonate, including the object they are written on. -Area dispels work in a very particular way: for each target with an active spell, they first try to dispel the highest caster-level spell, then the next highest, and so on, until they manage to dispel something. Put the two together, and what does that mean? The first dispel check detonates *one* explosive rune, dealing 6d6 force damage in a burst (Reflex/half) to everything in a burst, including full damage to the object the runes are written on. In the process, all other explosive runes are harmlessly destroyed, as the paper and arrow are incinerated by force damage. The End. If you're DM's feeling generous, he might allow 1d4 runes to detonate, but strictly by the RAW, the rune trick doesn't work that great. And that's without getting into the question of whether Dispel checks are a sort of check that you can voluntarily fail.