Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tweedledope 02-13-06, 10:06 PM	Okay, I'm currently playing a Changeling Rogue who LOVES to be an information broker. I gather my information by various disguises and such (which I'm a master of). However, as of late, my DM has been giving lots of creatures True Seeing which totally ruins me. Long story short, how do I overcome True Seeing? It is SO hard to do anything when everyone knows you're a damned shapeshifter. Thanks ahead, -=TD=-
Mystyc 02-13-06, 10:12 PM	Mundane disguises, as provided by the Disguise skill, are not penetrated by True Seeing.
DeadKeepWalking 02-13-06, 10:16 PM	Wand/Rod of Anti-Magic Field.
JadeSpider9643 02-13-06, 10:21 PM	Well I see a few choices, and a couple of them are even viable. way #1 - throw money at the problem Ring of Counterspells filled with true seeing. (your gonna need a lot of scrolls and good UMD checks to keep it going) way #2 - check your DM True Seeing costs a level 6 spell and 250gp a pop. Unless your being obviously deceptive to the faces of high level wizards, no one should be realistically popping these things like tic-tacs in your prescence. way #3 - avoid the spells range unlike the actual disguise self spell, a changeling only changes himself, not his equipment. so wear gloves, and a large hood, keep your face hidden with a mask or helmet, if they can't see your actual body, the spell can't revel anything. To this end also start depending less on your supernatural racial ability and use more the mundane method to do the same thing (disguise skill). True Seeing does NOT reveal a plastic nose and bad makeup, only magical alterations. Frankly though I think #2 is your REAL problem here, and #3 might be your only solution.
JadeSpider9643 02-13-06, 10:25 PM	Wand/Rod of Anti-Magic Field. Except his ability to change shape is a Supernatural one, and he would lose it in an anti-magic field. Weither that means he reverts to his normal form or just loses the ability to change shape in the field is up to his DM, who seems intent on railroading his abilities away.
Tweedledope 02-13-06, 10:28 PM	Thanks for the fast input! I never guess I realized the power behind the +10 to Disguise Checks that the Changelings get...I'll have to mention that to my DM. He's really good about that sort of stuff so, we'll have to see. Does anyone know of any magic items that can deceive true seeing? I vaguely remember hearing of one on the CO Boards (my home-away-from-home). My DM doesn't like railroading my abilities he just likes to make character play challenging (he gives hella XP if we do good at it). Like I said, it'll be worth my while to find a way to foil it without having to worry too much. BTW: Most of the people who have been overcoming my shapechanging are wearing goggles of true seeing or something of the sort. For instance, I was once trying to mimic the form of a guardsman to infiltrate a local magistrates meeting and one of them happened to be wearing a monacle of true seeing...the bastard. -=TD=-
tridiak 02-14-06, 02:20 AM	A more expensive way : use limited wish, wish or miracle to "fool anyone who uses True Seeing to penetrate my <specific disguise>". Limited Wish will have a short duration. For balancing, the DM may allow the users of True Seeing a Will save (it is affecting their mind).
Millennium 02-14-06, 07:02 AM	I'm not sure there are any magical means of defeating true seeing. But there's more than one way to skin a tressym: namely, don't use magic. Crank up your skill ranks in Disguise and Bluff, take feats which provide bonuses to Disguise checks (Deceitful works well here), and invest in a disguise kit. All of this stuff is right from the PHB. You'll still have to take certain penalties in some situations, but if you can work the roleplaying around and make your skill rolls, then true seeing won't be of any use: there's no magic for it to see past. Another thing you can try is to use your minor change shape ability for as little as possible, and use mundane disguises to fill out the rest. For example, if your character is male by default, you might change your gender to female but use the rest of your disguise by mundane means. True seeing doesn't penetrate solid objects (including, arguably, makeup) so as long as you keep your eyes hidden the only information it could provide would be that you're actually male. That might be enough to arouse suspicion, but it doesn't give everything away.
DracoPhoenix 02-14-06, 07:48 AM	As above suggestions, But also consider the SpyMaster PrC (Comp. Adventurer) too.
Derren S. 02-14-06, 08:07 AM	Mundane disguises are the only way to truely defeat True Seeing. Just watch out for people having Clearsight (but when you meetsomeone who has Clearsight you have other problems)
getgoldcardsoul 02-14-06, 02:34 PM	Question: If... Escape Detection Clairsentience You (plus all your gear and any objects you carry) become difficult to detect by clairsentience powers such as clairvoyant sense, remote viewing, and psionic true seeing. If a clairsentience power or similar effect is attempted against you, the manifester of the power must succeed on a manifester level check (1d20 + manifester level, or caster level if the opponent is not a manifester) against a DC of 13 + your manifester level (maximum +10)....is to Clairsentience as... Nondetection Abjuration The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level. If cast on a creature, nondetection wards the creature’s gear as well as the creature itself....is to Divination, then why should... True Seeing, Psionic Clairsentience As the true seeing power (sic?), except as noted here....be subject to the psionic equivalent to Non-detection, but Non-detection can't stop... True Seeing -->Divination<-- You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things......at all? Hypothesis: True Seeing can be blocked by Nondetection.
Thelandrach 02-14-06, 02:36 PM	And then there's the zen solution, which is: don't change shape. Don't even disguise yourself. Find some way to conduct your business that means True Sight has nothing to see. Do this until the GM stops using True Sight every time you show up in public, then start sneaking it in every now and then.
Derren S. 02-14-06, 02:38 PM	Generally higher level spells trump lower level spells unless specifically noted and as nondetection is only 3rd level and True Seeing is lvl 5 I don's how this would work. Besides if nondetection would do everything people want it to do (blocking, Scry, See Invisibility, True Seeing, Vision,... it has to be higher level. There is no way a 3rd level spell can do all these things.
getgoldcardsoul 02-14-06, 03:25 PM	Besides if nondetection would do everything people want it to do (blocking, Scry, See Invisibility, True Seeing, Vision,... it has to be higher level. There is no way a 3rd level spell can do all these things.But no one questions why a 5th/6th level spell can see through all illusions, no matter what level they are? This includes seeming (Sor/Wiz 5), veil (Sor/Wiz 6) project image (Sor/Wiz 7) and screen (Sor/Wiz 8), to name a few core spells. So how does it make sense that a 5th/6th level spell acts as the trump-all-Illusion-with-no-saving-throw spell for all levels 1-9, but the abjuration spell, which doesn't even gaurantee success, can't block anything above 3rd? Point is: it makes no difference what level nondetection, or any other spell, is relative to beating another spell unless the text specifically says so; the power of the spell goes up with caster level. Dispel magic trumps quite a bit a few spells, no matter what the level, and it's only a level 3 spell for most spell casters. Dispel also demands a check which grows in power with the caster level of the one who casts it, just like nondetection. Thus, a weaker spellcaster may not break true seeing whilst a 20th-level spellcaster's nondetection definitely has a chance to beat, say, a 11th-level caster's divination spell.
getgoldcardsoul 02-14-06, 04:36 PM	Regardless, since true seeing is, even in the case of a failed level check on a nondetection, ridiculously all-powerful against magical transmutation and illusion, one should still use as much available for mundane disguises as possible. By the way, is a changeling's shapechanging power extraordinary or supernatural? Antimagic effects will affect a supernatural shapechange as well as the true seeing, so that's another avenue closed if such is the case.
King_Bulba 02-21-06, 12:59 AM	Is it one person using these true seeing goggles or many? I dont see how they can afford it but I guess DM can do anything he wants. Last I remembered they were rediculously expensive(as it should be). I would find a way to steal the goggles. Hide in his house and wait for dark. It doesn't see through normal darkness. Hire some rogues at the thieves guild to steal them if you dont want to get directly involved. If they dont give you the item you paid them to steal, ohhh well but if they give it to you as planed you can then sell it for major bucks even if its at 35% sinces it's stolen goods. If your dm has random mobs using true seeing he is just screwing you over. If not then get a mold of a face and use some makeup. True seeing wouldnt know the difference.
Shadowmagyk 02-21-06, 04:41 AM	UMD and scrolls of Dispel Magic. Ward your business room door with an Anti-Magic Field, and put your desk 10-ft. away. Make sure to keep your door closed. Make your clients come to you - you have what they need. When you are a traveling salesman, bring your normal disguise.
Tweedledope 02-21-06, 08:26 AM	Is it one person using these true seeing goggles or many? I dont see how they can afford it but I guess DM can do anything he wants. Last I remembered they were rediculously expensive(as it should be). I would find a way to steal the goggles. Hide in his house and wait for dark. It doesn't see through normal darkness. Hire some rogues at the thieves guild to steal them if you dont want to get directly involved. If they dont give you the item you paid them to steal, ohhh well but if they give it to you as planed you can then sell it for major bucks even if its at 35% sinces it's stolen goods. If your dm has random mobs using true seeing he is just screwing you over. If not then get a mold of a face and use some makeup. True seeing wouldnt know the difference. It's a gang-type organization who know that I exist and they're trying to protect themselves no matter the cost.
kam_Islash 02-21-06, 01:19 PM	Non magical disguises. Just wait til youre epic, when EVERYTHING has true seeing. Then you'll rediscover the joys of makeup and wigs.
karthos 02-21-06, 01:41 PM	Mind Blank protects you from true seeing. On a side note, you would lose the +10 bonus to disguise that the changeling gets, as it is a result of his change self ability, the same ability that true seeing is negating.
Cantankerous 02-21-06, 02:01 PM	It's a gang-type organization who know that I exist and they're trying to protect themselves no matter the cost. The "no matter the cost" thing isn't in any way reasonable. At 250GP per pop for a 1minute/level spell, to be running 24/7 will get WAY too expensive WAY to fast. Say it's 15th lvl. That's a thousand GP per hour, or 24,000 GP per day..and as you see, it gets ridiculous to do even for a day; irregardless of how obsessed the person/group is.
Shadowmagyk 02-21-06, 02:21 PM	The "no matter the cost" thing isn't in any way reasonable. At 250GP per pop for a 1minute/level spell, to be running 24/7 will get WAY too expensive WAY to fast. Say it's 15th lvl. That's a thousand GP per hour, or 24,000 GP per day..and as you see, it gets ridiculous to do even for a day; irregardless of how obsessed the person/group is. If they have that much money to spare per day, then they really dont need to be talking to you because they would be more than capable of getting their own information.
Derren S. 02-21-06, 02:36 PM	Or they have a spellcaster who can cast this spell free of charge? Why do people always calculate the gold value when spells are casted? Do you also subtract all spellslots wizards have from their total wealth by level they should have?
Shadowmagyk 02-21-06, 02:44 PM	Or they have a spellcaster who can cast this spell free of charge? Why do people always calculate the gold value when spells are casted? Do you also subtract all spellslots wizards have from their total wealth by level they should have? I guess that I missed the rule that allows a caster to forgo spell components above 1GP.
Derren S. 02-21-06, 03:00 PM	Oh dam, brain fart. I thought he meant the normal cost to cast spells as per PHB, not material components.
Atar 02-21-06, 03:17 PM	What you need is a wand of Blindness/Deafness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blindnessDeafness.htm). True Seeing even has it in the name. It allows you to SEE magical this, SEE magical that. Does not allow you to SEE mundane hiding things, . Its obviously linked to the optic nerve, feeding magical info to the caster's brain. Just take out the eyes and you're done. Its a rogueish guild thats on your heels you say? Good for you rogues tend to have crap fortitude saves :D
Shadowmagyk 02-21-06, 03:25 PM	What you need is a wand of Blindness/Deafness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blindnessDeafness.htm). True Seeing even has it in the name. It allows you to SEE magical this, SEE magical that. Does not allow you to SEE mundane hiding things, . Its obviously linked to the optic nerve, feeding magical info to the caster's brain. Just take out the eyes and you're done. Its a rogueish guild thats on your heels you say? Good for you rogues tend to have crap fortitude saves :D This is the best idea, so far. Of course, you still need to take UMD.
Atar 02-21-06, 04:44 PM	This is the best idea, so far. Of course, you still need to take UMD. I like to think outside of the box :D You could also get yourself a magic item that casts this a number of times per day, its not like you're gonna need it that often. Maybe a Rod of Blindness? Functions as a +1 light mace and can cast Blindness a couple times per day the normal way or when delivering an attack. Light maces can be finnessed IIRC. Btw, did you know a blind creature is always sneak attackable? I just love it when a plan comes together. ;)
Derren S. 02-21-06, 04:47 PM	Btw, did you know a blind creature is always sneak attackable? I just love it when a plan comes together. ;) Not always. Blind Fight is such a underused feat.
Shadowmagyk 02-21-06, 05:27 PM	Btw, did you know a blind creature is always sneak attackable? I just love it when a plan comes together. ;) Not always. Blind Fight is such a underused feat. Not to mention the creatures that have Blindsight. Uncanny Dodge also prevents this, as everyone is considered invisible when a creature is blinded.
Atar 02-21-06, 05:38 PM	The creature is still permanently blind until someone dispels it.
Shadowmagyk 02-21-06, 05:50 PM	The creature is still permanently blind until someone dispels it. Which is a pretty powerful 2nd level spell.
interpretivechaos 02-21-06, 09:41 PM	Also, depending on your skills of infiltration and sleight of hand, Nystul's magic aura and a swap should be easy enough to do. I suppose it is all of fairly cheap to make the ruse, and I doubt they check it against a reliable source often. Scrolls of Mordenkeins Disjunction might not be out of hand if you can afford/ use them with a high enough UMD. The problem with blinding is they may not realize you are a changeling, but they will notice something is amiss as they suddenly become blind. And finally, if push comes to shove in a similar fashion- how tough is it to sunder the glasses... Even shatter...
Shadowmagyk 02-21-06, 10:08 PM	The problem with blinding is they may not realize you are a changeling, but they will notice something is amiss as they suddenly become blind. That is okay. Remember, they are trying to protect themselves, which is the reason for the True Seeing. He needs to explain that he is only protecting himself. Information brokering is a risky business. he cannot have "just anyone" knowing who he is. If they prove to be good customers, maybe he will reveal himself. Until then, he will blind them. I dont want to tell you how to play your character, but this is the route that I would take. I would use the anti-magic field on the door, with your desk 10ft away for customoers visiting your "place of business." Remember to keep the door closed. Any other time, I would use the blinding scenario, and even use this as a back-up to the anti-magic field, just in case it is suppressed.
Frodo Lives 02-21-06, 11:37 PM	I hate to be a stick in the mud, but it sounds like you have a DM that is trying to screw you over because you are using one tactic far too well, but far to often. True Seeing should be a once in a while thing that you have to deal with, not with every other encounter. It smacks of the DM who only uses flying creatures or Huge monsters against a Spiked Chain Trip Fighter because he can't figure out what else to do with him. What level (or ECL) is your character?
Wuggadad 02-22-06, 01:14 AM	True Seeing only helps if they are looking in the right direction. Get the right Nystul's Aura on someone, and _they_ will look like the Shapeshifter in disguise. There is also the tactic of attacking the credibility of the manufacturer of all these "supposedly" True Seeing goggles. After all, he did not tell his customers that they would not see through _his_ illusions. _If_ you GM has presented this as a challenge for you to work around, that is one thing, but if he is doing this _just_ to nerf your primary focus, consider: A character whose primary focus is healing suddenly finds that everything is doing Vile Damage, or save (no damage) or die spells. A character whose focus is diplomacy finds that everybody is a mindless construct or controlled by some powerful being. A character whose focus is stealth and back stabbing, everything is Oozes in well-lit areas. Why? Because the GM couldn't be bothered to work within the natural limitations of their powers to provide them a legitimate challenge, and instead did a rip-off of the DC Comics Stupid Plot page.
interpretivechaos 02-22-06, 08:38 AM	That is okay. Remember, they are trying to protect themselves, which is the reason for the True Seeing. He needs to explain that he is only protecting himself. Information brokering is a risky business. he cannot have "just anyone" knowing who he is. If they prove to be good customers, maybe he will reveal himself. Until then, he will blind them. But at this point, if he wants anonymity it would be easier (with a lot less ill will) just to wear a full mask, gloves and a hood. They won' know he's a changeling, just that he's someone he doesn't want them to know...
Shadowmagyk 02-22-06, 03:02 PM	But at this point, if he wants anonymity it would be easier (with a lot less ill will) just to wear a full mask, gloves and a hood. They won' know he's a changeling, just that he's someone he doesn't want them to know... We must go back to the OPs question, "How to defeat True Seeing." I do not think that he was asking about anonymity, but how to counteract the spell. Yes, the disguise skill is the best way to do it, which would give him anonymity, but I dont think that he was really asking about a mundane process. I think that the way to defeat it depends upon his character's alignment. OP, just pick the way that makes the most sense for your character to do it. the cheapest way is the disguise skill. Magic takes money, and blinding another pretty cruel - not evil, but cruel nonetheless.