Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neo_Leviathan 08-13-05, 08:10 AM	I'm DMing a game currently, and the party Wizard is a first time D&D player. She has extensively read the PHB and Complete Arcane, but there are so many tips and tricks that you really only learn from experience. When I started the game I said that I would be playing all NPCs appropriately for their intelligence score, and I'm not good at 'nerfing' my own actions to accomodate for her lack of knowledge. In case you have no idea what I'm on about, this all came to a head after her lvl 5 Wizard had both her fireball spells fizzle in consecutive rounds after being "Hostile Counterspelled" by a lvl 2 Warmage. So, can all you players out there please come up with some hints, tips and tricks for the Wizard?
Torack 08-13-05, 08:17 AM	It depends whether she is alone or in a group. IMO its best to let the players discover tactics the hard-way. If they choose to walk a 200ft cliff ask them if they really want to do that and then let them. Just make sure the penalties do not always result in death(the less the better) and leave an obvious escape route open to the player(Even going so far as asking them if they want to run or not.) Sure it'll mean a couple of deaths early on, but people do tend to pick up on obviousnesses like: Do not walk off a 200ft. cliff. I, myself, am in a similar situation where a newbie wanted to be a rogue. He managed to set off every trap in the dungeon. The next adventure however, he checked for traps every new room they entered. Having a badly burned rogue with few hitpoints apparently makes one cautious...who would've thunk it?
Neo_Leviathan 08-13-05, 08:23 AM	THeres a party of 6 people, she's doing a great job of Roleplaying, but thus far she basically goes "Ok, I cast magic missile", she just doesn't really know how to play a Wizard effectively. It's not a question of her surviving (except for her forgetting to cast Mage Armour), it's a question of her learning the fun little effective ways of being a mage, and I kinda feel bad just saying "Look at what my NPC casters do and pick up a few tricks" At least she knows about hostile counterspelling now....
Norhg 08-13-05, 09:22 AM	In case you have no idea what I'm on about, this all came to a head after her lvl 5 Wizard had both her fireball spells fizzle in consecutive rounds after being "Hostile Counterspelled" by a lvl 2 Warmage.Pray tell, how did the warmage do this? Scrolls of Fireball, dispel magic or innate meteor swarms with the improved counterspelling feat perhaps?
Neo_Leviathan 08-13-05, 09:36 AM	Pray tell, how did the warmage do this? Scrolls of Fireball, dispel magic or innate meteor swarms with the improved counterspelling feat perhaps? Precocious Apprentice for a single casting of Scorching Ray, and then a Magic Missile. BTW, "Hostile Counterspelling" is the nickname that players in my area have given the act of one mage going "I hold my action until that enemy mage starts casting" and then hitting them with a damage spell as soon as the enemy starts to cast, thereby forcing a concentration check to keep the spell. In the case of the scorching ray the DC 27 Concentration save was a bit much for the party Wiz, and the DC 17 one from Magic Missile resulted in a natural one on the concentration check.
rbrt_Spade 08-13-05, 11:44 AM	quicked 3.0 hastes-good times :) some tips i do is just go threw my spells and make them into good combos with the party and other spells everybody i think has thier own signature spell combo that they use or that favorite spell
Merestil Haye 08-13-05, 11:49 AM	Two things. What do you mean by "holding an action"? It's a bit ambiguous, but the usual meaning is to delay action. You cannot do what you are doing off a delayed action; you have to be readying your action. You do know that a roll of natural 1 on a skill check is not an automatic failure, I hope? It is actually possible (not likely but barely possible) that the character could have succeeded in the second Concentration check. It does require 18+ Constitution, but I don't know whether the character has that.
Torack 08-13-05, 11:49 AM	Put her up against herself...sort of like an evil twin thingie? Just play her to her full power and wait to see if she picks up the tricks of the trade. Remember that she might be fine the way things are. Its her character and her choice of play that should matter in the end. Alternatively you could ask her to try a different character.
ShadowDragon8685 08-13-05, 01:14 PM	Well, I would suggest that it's partly your fault. Putting a newbie up against bad guys who know all the tricks of the trade - despite being three levels lower than her - is just wrong. How did he learn how to "Hostile Counterspell", anyway? I think you give NPCs too much credit. And if you ARE going to have them do crap like this, you need to take the PC wizard through "tutorial mode", explain exactly what the NPC is doing as he does it, and what is an effective countermeasure. Under no circumstances should you force a player into a situation where they have no effective countermeasures.
Neo_Leviathan 08-13-05, 01:20 PM	Two things. What do you mean by "holding an action"? It's a bit ambiguous, but the usual meaning is to delay action. You cannot do what you are doing off a delayed action; you have to be readying your action. Thats what I mean, we use hold and ready interchangebly. "I ready an action to cast at the enemy caster to damage him and disrupt his spell". Might seem a little strange that you can get your spell off first when they've already starter theirs, but I figure it's on a level with counterspelling, or maybe you start the spell and dont finish it until the right moment. You do know that a roll of natural 1 on a skill check is not an automatic failure, I hope? It is actually possible (not likely but barely possible) that the character could have succeeded in the second Concentration check. It does require 18+ Constitution, but I don't know whether the character has that. Yep, I know, but she needed a 3 or 4 to succeed
Neo_Leviathan 08-13-05, 01:24 PM	Well, I would suggest that it's your fault. Putting a newbie up against bad guys who know all the tricks of the trade - despite being three levels lower than her - is just wrong. How did he learn how to "Hostile Counterspell". Err, in *warmage academy* maybe? I think you give NPCs too much credit. And if you ARE going to have them do crap like this, you need to take the PC wizard through "tutorial mode", explain exactly what the NPC is doing as he does it, and what is an effective countermeasure. Under no circumstances should you force a player into a situation where they have no effective countermeasures. I do not feel that I give a 14 or 16-odd Int Warmage who is trained to use his powers to blast the hell out of things "too much credit", if you play your NPCs stupidly simply because the are NPCs thats you're game. I did explain to her what had happened, the only effective countermeasures are a high Concentration, or not letting him have line of sight on you.
imperialjunkie 08-13-05, 01:34 PM	THeres a party of 6 people, she's doing a great job of Roleplaying, but thus far she basically goes "Ok, I cast magic missile", she just doesn't really know how to play a Wizard effectively. It's not a question of her surviving (except for her forgetting to cast Mage Armour), it's a question of her learning the fun little effective ways of being a mage, and I kinda feel bad just saying "Look at what my NPC casters do and pick up a few tricks" At least she knows about hostile counterspelling now.... My advice is to just let her learn. And there's nothing wrong with advising her to watch how you do things. She seems to take naturally to the roleplaying so let her enjoy it and pick up the strategy as she goes. If you push the strategy too much, she might like the game less.
Neo_Leviathan 08-13-05, 01:38 PM	My advice is to just let her learn. And there's nothing wrong with advising her to watch how you do things. She seems to take naturally to the roleplaying so let her enjoy it and pick up the strategy as she goes. If you push the strategy too much, she might like the game less. *Nods* thats what I'm planning (and what the point of this thread was) I'm going to give her some hints, tips and ideas on how to play an effective Wizzy, but I'm certainly not going to push her. Of course, her getting both her fireballs countered give the perfect chance for the Vampiric Taint she 'acquired' a few sessions ago to rise to the fore...
ShadowDragon8685 08-13-05, 01:54 PM	Push the strategy, you risk losing the player. Seriously. If the player is primarily in it for the roleplaying, and you're trying to push them into a tactical wargame, you may just lose them altogether. You shoulden't be putting newbies up against nonCore stuff anyway.
Neo_Leviathan 08-13-05, 01:57 PM	Push the strategy, you risk losing the player. Seriously. If the player is primarily in it for the roleplaying, and you're trying to push them into a tactical wargame, you may just lose them altogether. You shoulden't be putting newbies up against nonCore stuff anyway. I'm not pushing the strategy or anything, or trying to push them into a tactical wargame (they're pretty good with strategy for ambushes, how to approach something etc, not so good on the tactical). And I'm not putting her up against anything she hasn't read.
ShadowDragon8685 08-13-05, 02:04 PM	Reading something and actually experiancing it in game are two different matters. Most people who read the Frenzied Berzerker go "Oh, NEATO! So it's got a few drawbacks. They just make it balanced to support it's insane damage and ability to not die!" They overlook the fact that one of those 'drawbacks' is attacking the party. They don't make the connection until their own FB turns into a complete TPK thanks to Deathless Rage. And from then on, you hear war-stories about the good campaign gone in the space of ten rounds, and a complete willingness to beat and eject anybody who brings a Frenzied Berzeker to the table.
Gothica 08-13-05, 02:19 PM	Yeah. The Frenzied Berserker thing isn't usually realized until it's played in the group. At least, that's what happened to us.
Laranis Callirr 08-13-05, 03:17 PM	I agree with ShadowDragon. Loosen things up a little bit, and let her get used to the more intricate mechanics of the game. However, if you wish to continue as you are, then I suggest that you make a few wizard enemies and NPCs. I'm sure your player could learn from what they do, and develop some tactics of her own.
Callista 08-13-05, 03:27 PM	A new player will obviously take some time to learn the tricks of the trade. Don't really worry about teaching her unless she's really being dense--chances are, she'll work out strategy on her own. That's the way it happened with the majority of the new players I've met; and the ones that didn't learn had generally played too many video games. (Nothing against video games. But if you use video game strategy in D&D, you'll die...)
Sapp 08-13-05, 04:04 PM	How does hostile counterspelling work in 3.5? Both Fireball and Scorching ray take 1 standard action. Are you playing 2nd Edition where there is actually a difference in casting time between Fireball, Scorching Ray, and Magic Missiles? Or is there something I've been missing about 3.0 and 3.5?
PoeticJustice 08-13-05, 05:20 PM	Have you tried pulling a few tricks on her? As you heft your tankard and tip it, you find no liquid comes forth. Upon investigation, all the water in the cup appears to have been frozen solid. A small elven child points at you and giggle "How'd you like my ray of frost, lady?" You suddenly find that you smell suspiciously of corn feed. After hearing a squawk you turn around to find a surging mob of hungry-looking chickens coming toward you. A Knowledge (arcana) check reveals that the lowly prestidigitation spell flavors objects, in this case your pack, to the caster's desire You see a hogtied elderly gentleman rocket past, thrown through the air furiously by an unknown force. He lands, bounces, and after shouting some arcane phrase, suddenly rockets forth again (Spellcraft check to recognize a stilled telekinesis spell) All of these have ocurred in some form in my games, and that's just the tip of the iceberg!
Encard 08-13-05, 05:35 PM	How does hostile counterspelling work in 3.5? Both Fireball and Scorching ray take 1 standard action. Are you playing 2nd Edition where there is actually a difference in casting time between Fireball, Scorching Ray, and Magic Missiles? Or is there something I've been missing about 3.0 and 3.5? As the original poster said... Ready an action to cast Scorching Ray/Fireball/some other damaging spell for when the enemy starts casting their spell, forcing them to make a high DC Concentration check or lose the spell. Neo_Leviathan: Does the character have a mentor or some other more exprienced spellcaster they're on good terms with? Perhaps some such NPC might give advice time to time.
Merestil Haye 08-13-05, 05:47 PM	Thats what I mean, we use hold and ready interchangebly.This is a bad idea. The reason is that "Hold" is often used for delay action, whiich is significantly different from Ready - in particular that the character who delays simply defers his action until a better time in the round (maybe waiting for an ally to clear the area before unleashing a devastating area effect spell that the character is vulnerable to), thus having to wait until the wizard finished casting, but keeping access to their full round's actions, rather than acting before the wizard has completed their spell but being able to use only a standard action. It might be worth pointing oput that anything a warmage can do, a wizard can do as well, if he has the same spells prepared."I ready an action to cast at the enemy caster to damage him and disrupt his spell". Might seem a little strange that you can get your spell off first when they've already starter theirs, but I figure it's on a level with counterspelling, or maybe you start the spell and dont finish it until the right moment.Using the Ready action does allow you to start and finish your action before the wizard you readied against finishes his action.Yep, I know, but she needed a 3 or 4 to succeedThat's ok then. I could not tell whether you were using a houseule that a natural 1 autofailed a skill check.
Citizen Fry 08-13-05, 06:03 PM	Ready an action to cast Scorching Ray/Fireball/some other damaging spell for when the enemy starts casting their spell, forcing them to make a high DC Concentration check or lose the spell. I think I would house rule against this sort of behavior in my own campaigns; doesn't it make Counterspelling completely and utterly pointless? Unless the spell you are using as a "hostile counterspell" is Quickened, I would rule that the guy who started casting first finishes casting first. :twocents:
q'afuu 08-13-05, 06:05 PM	I did explain to her what had happened, the only effective countermeasures are a high Concentration, or not letting him have line of sight on you. Or using you Move action to *pretend* to start casting. Weather any incoming attacks and then cast for real, without being disrupted. ;)
Encard 08-13-05, 06:23 PM	I think I would house rule against this sort of behavior in my own campaigns; doesn't it make Counterspelling completely and utterly pointless? Unless the spell you are using as a "hostile counterspell" is Quickened, I would rule that the guy who started casting first finishes casting first. :twocents: Counterspelling isn't usually particularly worthwhile even without considering this sort of disruption. If you're going to rule out readying spells, methinks you'd better houserule readied actions out altogether, since you can ready any standard action and casting a spell takes just as long as making an attack.
Laranis Callirr 08-13-05, 06:51 PM	(Nothing against video games. But if you use video game strategy in D&D, you'll die...) You mean I can move my dice up, down, left, right, then tap the DMG and the PHB to get 10,000 gold?! :eek:
StevenO 08-13-05, 07:33 PM	Did your new player start play at 1st Level? Secondly, does she own (or have ready access to) the PHB and CArc to study from? Someone new to the game can't be expected to know all the tricks a seasoned vetern knows athough her character may know the tricks. I'd recommend giving the character Int checks every so often as an excuse to drop tactical advice that the character knows even if the player doesn't. She may be learning under fire but wizards are also probably the hardest class to learn to play. It's not like the cleric in that you don't know all the spells (not to mention the cleric's sturdiness) or a sorcerer who only knows so many spells (and can/should study them inside out) but doesn't have to worry which ones to prepare for the day. If possible you may want to redo the character as a sorcerer but in anycase you should either explain some of the tactics you use with her beforehand or hold back on them a little.
ShadowDragon8685 08-13-05, 07:47 PM	No no, you've got it wrong. Move the die to the number specified, in one fluid motion. Do not stop on the way, or you fail and must start over - just like opening a combination padlock. You use two dice for this, a d6, then a d20. d6: 1, 6, 4, 5, 6 d20: 1, 20, 1, 20, 7, 14, 20, 1 Then you place the d20 on top of the DMG. Here's where things get TRICKY. It MUST be the DMG I, Core Rulebook III, D&D 3.5. It has to be the DMG with the blue cover with the globe. Place your d20 in the little white circle on the right-handed side of the cover. Then, without using bookmarks, dog ears, or any other contrivance, open the Player's Handbook, and place your d6 on the page on the right-hand side without looking. Now, here's where it gets tricky, depending on what you land on. Blank front page: 6000 GP Player's Handbook page: 1000 XP Table of Contents: Go directly to page listed closest to where your dice rests, and re-calculate award. Introduction: Chapter 1: Abilities: Gain a +4 unsigned bonus to ability your dice rests on. (If dice rests on no ability, choose. Chapter 2: Races: Change your race or that of someone else's character to the race your dice lands on. If your dice lands on one of the gender portrait line-ups, gender changes as well. Chapter 3: Classes: Gain one class level instantly in whatever class your dice landed on. Chapter 4: Skills: Gain a +2 unsigned bonus to all skills. Chapter 5: Feats: Gain the feat listed. If you do not meet pre-requisites, you still gain the feat, but may not use it until you meet pre-requisites. Chapter 6: Description: You are excused from the table to go write up any background or descriptions of your character that you are delinquent in writing. If you are not delinquint, gain one level for being a good roleplayer. Chapter 7: Equipment: You gain an item of the type your dice lands on, +1. If it's Equipment, you get 10 mundane but masterworked versions. Chapter 8: Combat: Gain an unsigned +2 to all attack rolls. Chapter 9: Adventuring: Gain an unsigned +2 to all saves. Chapter 10: Magic: Gain a +2 bonus to Caster Level. If you're not a spellcaster, this is wasted. Chapter 11: Spells: Gain the ability to use the spell your dice rests on as an SU, once a day. CL = ECL. Appendix (Glossary): Gain a +5 unsigned bonus on all Knowledge checks, and one instant rank in any that you did not already have. Index: Go to the page number your dice rests on, recalculate from there. Character Sheet: Make any single change to your character sheet you desire. Dungeon Master approval required, or the effect is lost. Blank page opposite novel advert: You must go and purchase, with your real money, any munchies the group requires. Back Cover: Your character dies. Roll up a new one at same level. May not be the same archtype. (Melee, spellcaster, support.) Don't you miss the days of up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Start?
Sapp 08-13-05, 08:11 PM	Counterspelling isn't usually particularly worthwhile even without considering this sort of disruption. If you're going to rule out readying spells, methinks you'd better houserule readied actions out altogether, since you can ready any standard action and casting a spell takes just as long as making an attack. The problem is, unless you can see into the future, you don't know how long his spell is going to take to cast. Back in 2nd Edition, there was a noticeable difference in casting time between casting a wish and a magic missile. Now there is none. It sounds ridiculous that a wizard can potentially "hostile counterspell" someone's magic missile with a wish. Also, readying your spell in such a way that it's cast as soon as the enemy begins casting doesn't work unless you can see into the future to know exactly when he's going to start casting. Otherwise, you're stuck there with no continuity to your spell. *fizzle* This is definitely a house rule, because nothing in the official text explicitly states anything about "hostile counterspelling". For you computer scientists out there, casting a 1-standard action spell is an atomic operation (meaning that it can't be interrupted). These kind of quirks come with "turn based games". However, "hostile counterspelling" works for RTS games such as Baldur's Gate, which rely on 2nd Ed rules. I'm not saying your house rule sucks. It sounds interesting. Not perfectly logical (I'm going to cast magic missile to stop you from casting magic missile!), but neither are atomic operations. Feel free to use whatever house rules you want. Just don't punish your players for not knowing house rules you've made up and have never bothered telling them.
Sapp 08-13-05, 08:17 PM	Counterspelling isn't usually particularly worthwhile even without considering this sort of disruption. If you're going to rule out readying spells, methinks you'd better houserule readied actions out altogether, since you can ready any standard action and casting a spell takes just as long as making an attack. Another thing to consider... if readied spells were somehow faster than normal spells, then no spell-caster would ever want to cast first. Hmm... that could lead to humorous situations involving caster battles. Wizard 1: Go ahead... cast your spell! Wizard 2: No way! You cast first! Wizard 1: No, you go. Cast your magic missile! I dare you! Wizard 2: No, I can cast it faster if you go first! Wizard 1: Alright... Fine! Here's my ultimate spell! Phlegeous Arath--.. Wizard 2: *Magic Missile!* Wizard 1: Fool! You wasted your turn! I was only pretending to cast! *Magic Missile!*
Norhg 08-13-05, 08:37 PM	Now, don't forget that it is possible to defend oneself against "Hostile Counterspelling". My group has noticed this but we like to call the Hostile Counterspell phenomena 'Spellsmacking' (-or its Swedish Equialent). First off, one can hide ones spell with sleight of hands. No chance of 'Spellsmacking' then. And defensive spells still protect you against whatever offensive spells might be targeted at you, so Spell Turning is still a go. And of course, remember that it all relies on initiative! Spellsmacking should only happen to the unprepared... But then it is a very valid strategy. Oh and... Wands and Staffs still work, more incentive to get them for the archmage, huh?
kliate 08-13-05, 09:07 PM	Korith, the tiefling wizard gazed upon his awesome foe - none other than his very brother, Nauthilus. "You're a fool to come here. The family birthright is mine and no court in the hells or celestia would dare take it from me. Not only that, but you're the same pathetic weakling you always were. One flick of my finger and you go down dead, and not one soul in this world or the next would question it." "Alluthia Nogath To..." Korith began to utter in response to his brother's speech. Nauthilus gasped when he realized that his usual confident speech had given Korith the upper hand. "Alluthia Nogath To..." Nauthilus uttered the well-known arcane phrase as quickly as he could muster, but it was too late - Korith had completed his spell long before Nauthilus could create his response. The older tieflings singed corpse dropped to the ground. So, what happened in game terms? Nauthilus was making his fancy IC speech when Korith won initiative. Korith readied the action, uttering a few parts of the arcane phrase, but timing its completion so that it would only fire off as soon as his brother attempted to cast back. Since readying an action is an action in and of itself, why not consider the beginning a partial preparation of the spell, with a final component so small and quick not even a quickened spell could outpace it? Now, consider the alternative. Two wizards are in a casting match, one wins initiative. He manages to get the first few syllables out first, but watches the motions of his opponent in order to fire off his spell at the most opportune moment. Now suppose that the other mage never casts a spell, for flavors sake theres nothing wrong with cutting off the spell before its even concluded, without using up a spell slot or prepared spell for the day.
Ogmug 08-13-05, 10:05 PM	I would suggest your player not let cheese the magic so much. You basically had a 3rd level caster get a free quicken metamagic feat for both scorching ray and magic missile thereby increasing the spells effective level by 3? Additionally you are increasing the casting time of fireball to 1 round or more? (because both spells are standard action, the only way they could be cast against another spell with a standard action is with quicken metamagic in either case) From the srd regarding concentration checks the footnote regarding the dc of damage taken from a spell: Such as during the casting of a spell with a casting time of 1 round or more, or the execution of an activity that takes more than a single full-round action (such as Disable Device). Also, damage stemming from an attack of opportunity or readied attack made in response to the spell being cast (for spells with a casting time of 1 action) or the action being taken (for activities requiring no more than a full-round action). Additionally, you are attempting to use a spell, to dispell another spell but are not even using the same spell to do it with: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane. Also, you are trying to use the delay action as a readied action, with is also against the raw: You never get back the time you spend waiting to see what’s going to happen. You can’t, however, interrupt anyone else’s action (as you can with a readied action). Fireball is a standard action. So if you wish to use scorching ray to damage a person, it also takes a standard action. This means, that scorching ray will always go off after the fireball (reaction time + standard action vs the persons casting time only). Now if you had used fireball, that would be different as the two fireballs would cancel each other out.
Dalar Ragnos 08-13-05, 10:07 PM	So, what happened in game terms? Nauthilus was making his fancy IC speech when Korith won initiative. Korith readied the action, uttering a few parts of the arcane phrase, but timing its completion so that it would only fire off as soon as his brother attempted to cast back. Since readying an action is an action in and of itself, why not consider the beginning a partial preparation of the spell, with a final component so small and quick not even a quickened spell could outpace it? Now, consider the alternative. Two wizards are in a casting match, one wins initiative. He manages to get the first few syllables out first, but watches the motions of his opponent in order to fire off his spell at the most opportune moment. Now suppose that the other mage never casts a spell, for flavors sake theres nothing wrong with cutting off the spell before its even concluded, without using up a spell slot or prepared spell for the day. I couldn't have said it better. You provided the perfect example of how counterspelling via forcing a Concentration check works, along with how readied actions beat even quickened spells. Well done. :clap: --------------------------------- And Ogmug, this isn't actually counterspelling, nor is this delaying. It's using a readied action to cast a spell (a standard action) upon seeing a trigger event occur (the enemy begins casting). This forces a Concentration check, which can cause the enemy caster to lose the spell if it doesn't outright incapacitate him/her. Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the coneditions under which you will take it.... The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result).Emphasis mine.
Ogmug 08-13-05, 10:16 PM	The problem is you cannot "stop" casting a spell in the middle of it. This breaks the concentration needed to cast the spell, and therefore as subject to your own forced counterspell so to speak. Second, you completely invalidate the rule about counter spelling. COUNTERSPELLS It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane. How Counterspells Work: To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.)If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things. To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results. Counterspelling Metamagic Spells: Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered Specific Exceptions: Some spells specifically counter each other, especially when they have diametrically opposed effects. Dispel Magic as a Counterspell: You can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, and you don’t need to identify the spell he or she is casting. However, dispel magic doesn’t always work as a counterspell (see the spell description). make note of the bolded areas. You must ready an action, but you do not start casting. After your opponent starts, you make a spellcraft check to determin what spell they are casting. If you succeed, and you have that spell prepared, you cast it also while slightly altering it to negate the other person's spell.
Sapp 08-13-05, 10:19 PM	Korith, the tiefling wizard gazed upon his awesome foe - none other than his very brother, Nauthilus. "You're a fool to come here. The family birthright is mine and no court in the hells or celestia would dare take it from me. Not only that, but you're the same pathetic weakling you always were. One flick of my finger and you go down dead, and not one soul in this world or the next would question it." "Alluthia Nogath To..." Korith began to utter in response to his brother's speech. Nauthilus gasped when he realized that his usual confident speech had given Korith the upper hand. "Alluthia Nogath To..." Nauthilus uttered the well-known arcane phrase as quickly as he could muster, but it was too late - Korith had completed his spell long before Nauthilus could create his response. The older tieflings singed corpse dropped to the ground. So, what happened in game terms? Nauthilus was making his fancy IC speech when Korith won initiative. Korith readied the action, uttering a few parts of the arcane phrase, but timing its completion so that it would only fire off as soon as his brother attempted to cast back. Since readying an action is an action in and of itself, why not consider the beginning a partial preparation of the spell, with a final component so small and quick not even a quickened spell could outpace it? Now, consider the alternative. Two wizards are in a casting match, one wins initiative. He manages to get the first few syllables out first, but watches the motions of his opponent in order to fire off his spell at the most opportune moment. Now suppose that the other mage never casts a spell, for flavors sake theres nothing wrong with cutting off the spell before its even concluded, without using up a spell slot or prepared spell for the day. This was exactly what I was arguing against. If the other mage never casts a spell, and you "cut off your spell before it's even concluded, without using up a spell slot," then you are basically waiting for the other mage to start casting. Wizard 1: Phlegious Arath--... Wizard 2: Screw you, I'm not going to cast anything until you're done casting your spell. Wizard 1: Fine, I'll just cut off my spell before it's concluded without using up a spell slot. Hah. *cuts off spell* Wizard 2: Ok. Cool. Phlegious Aratha'nul Methrak'hi-- Wizard 1: Crap... EDIT: But the point isn't that I'm against "hostile counterspelling". House rules are fine. I don't care. The point is, no matter how much it seems to make sense to you, there are people (like me) to whom it doesn't make sense. It's NOT stated in the rules. It's a house rule, and players shouldn't be expected to know them unless a DM tells them about it.
Dalar Ragnos 08-13-05, 10:26 PM	You only wait so that you can see what they're casting, so that you can know what to counterspell with. Using readied spells does NOT negate counterspelling; if my opponent has an ungodly Concentration modifier, I know that I probably can't get them to fail with a simple scorching ray. That is where counterspelling comes into play. Also, what if my opponent has too much SR for me to easily break through? I can still counterspell them effectively, leaving my party members free to whomp on them and allowing me to do something other than twiddle my thumbs. (Unless twiddling the thumbs is a somatic component of the counterspells, of course... ;))
Neo_Leviathan 08-13-05, 10:35 PM	Applause goes out to kliate, thats *exactly* what I'm talking about. Also, to those who are confusing delay and ready action, I am using a READIED action, not a delayed one. Please also note, in spite of any complaints that you may have about spell casting time, this is perfectly within the RAW. You ready a standard action to happen when another standard action happens, technically it is *exactly* the same as the fighter going "I ready an action to hit him if he starts casting". Any of you ever played in any of the Living campaigns? Some of the biggest powergamers and min/maxers you'll ever find (not all, but most), but everything strictly within the rules. I learned this little trick there.
Ogmug 08-13-05, 10:35 PM	then we are back to the fact that you are trying to interupt the spell with a spell that has the same duration. Unless as it has been stated you are precognizant, you can't Step 1. Time: 0:00 I ready a spell. This means i have selected it. If you attempt to cast even a portion of hte spell, you will then lose concentration. No where in the rules does it say you can do this. Not even with spells that are delivered by touch, as you must complete the spell first to "charge" your hand. Step 2. Time: 0:01 Enemy mage begins casting a spell. Step 3. Time: 0:02 you begin casting your hostile counter spell. Step 4: Time: 0:07 Enemy spell goes off Step 5: Time: 0:08 Your spell goes off Both spells have the same casting time. There is no way you can speed up your spell without metamagic. None of the above is to say that this isn't an ok rule. It just isn't in the RAW. I can understand the desire, and even the logic behind it. But if you are going to rule this, inform your players before hand. Nothing worse than being surprised by a rule.
Timlagor 08-13-05, 11:03 PM	Ogmug: the rules on readied actions are quite clear and this tactic does work: ignore all 'ic' text above and concentrate on teh mechanics. A: I ready to cast my scorching ray when she starts casting B: I cast Fireball DM: The Scorching ray is triggered and takes effect doing you 17damage: Concentration check please The wizard can easily ready to cast when the Warmage does but if the warmage team outnumebrs her's then that may not be good. Alternatively she can delay while her friend the fighter goes over to the warmage and readies his action (potentially getting the readied hit and the AoO forcing two concentration checks on the Warmage). She should be told that she can usually be more effective by eschewing direct damage spells -obviuosly she should prepare *some* but they aren't generally going to be the most effective action. Compare taking off a third-half someone's HP versus crippling them so they are no longer a real threat. (obviously if she has fireballs that can kill dozens of enemies that's still worth doing)
Ogmug 08-13-05, 11:06 PM	when you ready a spell, you do not begin casting it. where in the rules does it state you can Start a spell, and finish it in another action? It doesn't. It is a standard action. The PHB states on page 140 under the heading casting time: Casting Time: Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. A spell cast in this manner immediately takes effect If it takes effect immediately, how can you hold off completing? You would have to start casting the turn before, more than likely on your movement phase. if you begin casting, and anything interupts the casting (1 standard action) then the spell is.. interupted. This is not a valid tactic by the RAW.
TheNatealator 08-13-05, 11:09 PM	Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the coneditions under which you will take it.... The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result). Now, I don't mind you using hostile counterspelling in your campaign, but I think when the RAW says you can ready an attack against a spellcaster, they mean an attack action, and only an attack action. In the paragraph on counterspelling, the RAW says you cast the spell "as a counterspell" so I'm assuming the casting time is less than the normal time required for the spell.
FlameLover 08-13-05, 11:41 PM	For me, personally, I see both sides but would argue that you can only do this if the spell is quickened (making it like an AoO which is what that readied attack is). So a quickened spell with this tactic is fine by my books (probably still not RAW though) or a spell with a smaller casting time but 1 standard action done after another standard action means the firstgoes of then the second.
Sapp 08-14-05, 12:41 AM	Regardless of all the arguments shown, let's remember that the RAW, as sacred as it may sound, is not complete, and this ruling is highly ambiguous. My only point was that since this rule is so ambiguous (the thread is obviously divided on the issue), perhaps the players shouldn't be expected to know this rule? ShadowDragon8685's post pretty much sums it up. Players shouldn't be punished for ambiguous or esoteric rules. EDIT: Honestly. The player makes a simple mistake on a very ambiguous rule. Punish her first then lecture her on what a big mistake she made? Doesn't seem very productive.
Neo_Leviathan 08-14-05, 08:27 AM	EDIT: Honestly. The player makes a simple mistake on a very ambiguous rule. Punish her first then lecture her on what a big mistake she made? Doesn't seem very productive. Err, pardon? What lecture? Huh!!?? I dont know where you got the idea that I'd lectured my player but you are incorrect.
TheRedRobedWizard 08-14-05, 08:55 AM	Well, my only problem with this is if the NPCs are delaying their actions to "hostile counterspell" or "be a douchebag" (as I like to call that choice of action) then it is the DMs job to describe said action. Saying something like "he seems to wait for you to take an action" doesn't cut it. Something like "he makes fleeting arcane gestures with his hands all the while waiting for you to make your move" would give the PC wizard some sembalence of a fair chance (and the idea to maybe throw a dagger into the stupid Warmage's eye). The RAI does not support this type of action; and the RAW only support it through lack of inclusion. "Oh yeah, I think all Counterspelling is stupid and hard. Instead of doing that, I think I'll just use a readied magic missile instead. Gosh, I must be really smart to think of this all by myself." - Warmage No, warmage, you aren't smart for thinking of that. Counterspelling exists for a reason; use it or lose it. -TRRW
q'afuu 08-14-05, 09:10 AM	Counterspelling isn't usually particularly worthwhile even without considering this sort of disruption. Depends. For the side who outnumbers the opposition, counterspelling is an excellent tactic - that side has more actions per round, so giving up an action to take away one from the others is to their advantage. If you're outnumbered, it's usually less advantageous to do so, as you're better off making every action count.
Nom 08-14-05, 09:24 AM	Actually, the ultimate "hostile counterspell" is silence. "If X begins casting a spell with verbal components, I cast silence.". You target the silence right next to him (but not at him, thus no save). All sound is supressed, including somatic components, and the spell fails. No checks, no bother, any spell with a V component simply fails. Range is Long, too. I had thought of house-ruling that a caster wishing to ready a spell must actually begin casting it and just delay resolution, but you end up getting into a whole lot of mess if you start considering timing. Can you charge someone before a readied spell goes off? Can you complete a move? If a spell is part-cast then held, can you force a concentration check? And so on. I do agree that counterspelling is weak compared to readying an offensive spell, but I can't see a clean nd balanced fix.
Fort deadly kick 08-14-05, 09:36 AM	I don't think this is a very good house rule to be honest. Apart from anything, unless the other player is using a full round action spell, and you a standard action, the timing won't match. As the other guy said, both spells in the example are one standard action spells, but he has to start casting before your casting is triggered. So his spell will start at least a second before your spell starts, and respectively, his spell will finish one second before your spell does, thus no check needed. However, if he was aiming his spell at you, there is a possibility that he causes you to take a check. So unless you have a quicken spell feat, you won't finish your standard action spell before his. (also, Timlagor, I'm not quite sure what you were thinking when you gave your example. It doesn't really explain anything.) But hey, you don't need my approval to run your games, although I really think you should get it, just to be safe.
ShadowDragon8685 08-14-05, 11:44 AM	Please, can we put the RAW arguments down? Ready The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so). Readying an Action You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action. You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round. Initiative Consequences of Readying Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round. Distracting Spellcasters You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result). Readying to Counterspell You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell"). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane. A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn’t always work. Readying a Weapon against a Charge You can ready certain piercing weapons, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character. It seems pretty clear to me that Hostile Counterspelling, or spellsmacking, is perfectly within the RAW. Casting a spell is a standard action, and you can take it as your Ready. It is perfectly within the rules and the intent of the rules for you to be able to disrupt someone's spell by bashing him - the rules do not differentiate between a big dumb barbarian going ME SMASH! with a greataxe and a Magic Missile or Fireball. However, I do agree that this means you should have to start casting before the other guy, waiting to get your shot in. This is also represented indirectly within the RAW: Start/Complete Full-Round Action The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw. I'd personally have to say that yes, you can extend a spell's casting time. So you can start it, and wait for the other guy. This is the magical equavilent of cracking your knuckles and hovering your hand about five inches from your hip, daring the other guy to go for his gun. However, I also agree with the colourful and vulgar description of the tactic, and I do believe that, if as a DM you intend to force this heinous interpretation of the rules into the game, especially against a newbie playing a Wizard, the most frail class in existance, then you are what the colourful description says the tactic is. And you NEED to make it very clear to the PC what the 'hostile counterspeller' is doing. Also, to make everything fair, I would note that since in your Ready'd action to Hostile Counterspell, you start casting. If the other guy does not trigger your ready'd action, you lose the spell, or have to start making Concentration checks to hang onto it. I'd say start it at DC 20 and go up by 2 per round.
Sapp 08-14-05, 01:19 PM	@ ShadowDragon That suggestion actually sounds much more reasonable than the previous situations suggested. Taking concentration checks to keep the spell. In fact, I would put it one step further and say they would need a concentration check immediately, on the first round, to see if they could hang on to it. For example, let me tell the story from a new perspective (modified from kliate's post): Korith, the tiefling wizard gazed upon his awesome foe - none other than his very brother, Nauthilus. "You're a fool to come here. The family birthright is mine and no court in the hells or celestia would dare take it from me. Not only that, but you're the same pathetic weakling you always were. One flick of my finger and you go down dead, and not one soul in this world or the next would question it." "Memento Mo-..." Korith began to utter in response to his brother's speech. Nauthilus gasped when he realized that his usual confident speech had given Korith the upper hand. However, just because Korith had begun casting a spell, didn't mean Nauthilus needed to follow suit. With an intelligence score of 35, he wasn't a COMPLETE DUMBASS. Nauthilus sighed, and decided he'd have to hold back his slower spells until Korith completed this ridiculous tactic, laughably referred to as "hostile counterspelling" by foolish mages who think it gives them an upperhand. Nearly an entire 6 seconds had passed (the round was almost over) and Nauthilus and Korith still looked each other in the eye, unwilling to cast their respective spells. With a quick gesture, a quickened twinned disintegrate struck Korith without giving him a chance to hostile counterspell. Korith was unable to return the favor, as he was unwilling to let go of his readied "hostile counterspell" until his brother would cast a counterable spell (1 standard action; free-actions are too quick). "You fool, just finish the damned spell," mocked Nauthilus. "No... must maintain concentration... don't want to waste spell!" Nauthilus laughed as he began twiddling his thumbs. Being bored, he tossed a dagger at Kliate before angrily shouting, "Let's not get into a fist fight. God, you're so stubborn." Korith decided Nauthilus was right. Whoever came up with this ridiculous tactic should be shot. Unable to complete the spell because it had been a full 2 rounds (and a disintegrate and a few daggers) since he started casting, he began another spell, which triggered Nauthilus's contingent lightning bolt striking Korith full in the chest, immediately stopping Korith's breath and ending the spell he had finally decided to start. Nauthilus laughed. "You see my brother. THAT is how you 'hostile counterspell'." So, what happened in game terms? Nauthilus was making his fancy IC speech when Korith won initiative. Korith readied the action, uttering a few parts of the arcane phrase, but timing its completion so that it would only fire off as soon as his brother attempted to cast back. Since readying an action is an action in and of itself, why not consider the beginning a partial preparation of the spell, with a final component so small and quick not even a quickened spell could outpace it? Unfortunately, Nauthilus is not a COMPLETE dumbass, and won't begin the exact same damned spell started by his brother only to have his brother finish his spell 2 seconds before his to cancel his. With an int score of 35, he's not an idiot. That's where ShadowDragon's suggestion comes into play. Korith would need a concentration check to maintain the spell for that prolonged period of time. Korith began casting memento mori, a level 10 spell, this requires him to make a concentration check of 10+10=20 on the first round, a 10+20 on the second round, a 10+30 on the third round... Now, consider the alternative. Two wizards are in a casting match, one wins initiative. He manages to get the first few syllables out first, but watches the motions of his opponent in order to fire off his spell at the most opportune moment. Now suppose that the other mage never casts a spell, for flavors sake theres nothing wrong with cutting off the spell before its even concluded, without using up a spell slot or prepared spell for the day. ... but let's go a step further. Before any combat begins, I will "ready a hostile counterspell", meteor swarm. I ready it such that as soon as I see any hostile mage, I will complete the spell. Since there's no concentration checks, and since timing goes out the window for "hostile counterspelling" rules as so graciously pointed out by rules lawyering and misinterpretation of the rules, I could very easily have a readied meteor swarm indefinitely. Contingency? Who needs that spell anymore? But perhaps, you could say, it only happens in one round, but then why can't the enemy wizard also ready a spell that triggers at the end of the round when the counterspeller finally gives up his attempt? Oh but wait, there isn't really an "end of round" any more because almost all spells are standard actions... hmmm...
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-14-05, 03:05 PM	Regardless of all the arguments shown, let's remember that the RAW, as sacred as it may sound, is not complete, and this ruling is highly ambiguous. My only point was that since this rule is so ambiguous (the thread is obviously divided on the issue), perhaps the players shouldn't be expected to know this rule? ShadowDragon8685's post pretty much sums it up. Players shouldn't be punished for ambiguous or esoteric rules. EDIT: Honestly. The player makes a simple mistake on a very ambiguous rule. Punish her first then lecture her on what a big mistake she made? Doesn't seem very productive. Ok so we are argeed that the readied action is not an elaborate house rule. Thats a good start; now instead of houseruling it into a unrecognisable puddle of goo, let's just use it as it is writen. First we will use a fighter in our example. Fighter: I READY my bow to attack when I see Caster X attempt to cast a spell. Caster X: *begins casting spell* Fighter: I shoot bow *rolls d20 and resolves attack and damage if applicable* Caster X: *makes concentration check if needed, and resolves spell action.* Now lets see how this works with Caster Y, and Caster X. (Caster Y must go before Caster X on iniative for this to work; we will assume that Caster Y delayed until he went before Caster X.) Caster Y: I cast scorching ray, but I hold the charge in my finger until I see Caster X casting a spell. To do this I will use the READIED ACTION, as described on page 160 of the 3.5 PHB. Caster X: *begins casting spell* Caster Y: *releases charged touch attack, scroching ray, and rolls d20 to resolve attack and any possible damage.* Caster X: *makes concentration check if needed and then resolves action for the round.* Both are supported within the RAW and do not need house rules, and are not house rules -- although I do agree with Shadowdragon, and others, that using this sort of action against a noob is a bastardly thing to do.
Timlagor 08-14-05, 03:15 PM	I was just illustrating how the rules actually work laying aside all the talk of house rules. ************************ RAW ----- There is absolutely no substance to all this talk of "having to start first because they have the same casting time". If you "Ready" an action then that action completes before whatever action triggered it does irrespective of 'how long it takes': the *only* requirement is that you can only ready an action that is one standard action or less. My example illustrated how the rules work and how one would go about interrupting a spell with another spell. You could equally well say "I ready to cast scorching ray at the first person to move" In this case your entire standard action (casting) would happen in the it took them to take their first step. No one is claiming that that step takes longer than a standard action but that is how the rules work. ****************************** I hope that everyone can understand and agree that those are the (3.5) rules as published by WotC. Please make it clear whether you are disputing this or proposing/discussing possible house-rules.
Timlagor 08-14-05, 03:30 PM	Caster Y: I cast scorching ray, but I hold the charge in my finger until I see Caster X casting a spell. To do this I will use the READIED ACTION, as described on page 160 of the 3.5 PHB. Caster X: *begins casting spell* Caster Y: *releases charged touch attack, scroching ray, and rolls d20 to resolve attack and any possible damage.* Caster X: *makes concentration check if needed and then resolves action for the round.* Sorry but this is horribly wrong. You CANNOT hold the charge for a ray. The correct procedure is to ready-to-cast-the-spell. If the condition of youre readying is not met then you do not cast the spell at all. If it is met then you get the effect you describe. A Spell can be and often is an attack. You explicitly can ready to cast a spell and there is no reason whatsoever to believe that the section on interrupting spellcasters is referring to anything more specific than attacking in general. There is certainly no basis for restricting it to melee attacks in the RAW
Sapp 08-14-05, 04:20 PM	Jeezus. Even the supporters of "hostile counterspelling" can't agree amongst themselves.
TheNatealator 08-14-05, 04:28 PM	They're like Democrats (and yes, I am a registered Democrat). I think I'll allow readied spells in my campaign, because if you're getting ready to cast a spell, you should be ready enough to be able to just say the whole spell faster. A standard action doesn't have a defined duration, it's just that you can't perform two standard actions in the same round (except for attacks as part of a full-round action:full attack). I'm not sure whether or not it's in the RAW, and I don't really care. If it ends up not working for my players or me, I'll change it. My group is flexible like that, thankfully.
Phrennzy 08-14-05, 05:29 PM	Ok so we are argeed that the readied action is not an elaborate house rule. Thats a good start; now instead of houseruling it into a unrecognisable puddle of goo, let's just use it as it is writen. First we will use a fighter in our example. Fighter: I READY my bow to attack when I see Caster X attempt to cast a spell. Caster X: *begins casting spell* Fighter: I shoot bow *rolls d20 and resolves attack and damage if applicable* Caster X: *makes concentration check if needed, and resolves spell action.* Now lets see how this works with Caster Y, and Caster X. (Caster Y must go before Caster X on iniative for this to work; we will assume that Caster Y delayed until he went before Caster X.) Caster Y: I cast scorching ray, but I hold the charge in my finger until I see Caster X casting a spell. To do this I will use the READIED ACTION, as described on page 160 of the 3.5 PHB. Caster X: *begins casting spell* Caster Y: *releases charged touch attack, scroching ray, and rolls d20 to resolve attack and any possible damage.* Caster X: *makes concentration check if needed and then resolves action for the round.* Both are supported within the RAW and do not need house rules, and are not house rules -- although I do agree with Shadowdragon, and others, that using this sort of action against a noob is a bastardly thing to do. The second example is flawed. Here's the skinny on this whole deal. Ready action allows you to ready an action in response to another activity. So with wizard X and Y, it goes down like this: Wiz X has Init 20. Wix Y has Init 14. Wiz X declares that he is readying his action to cast Scorching Ray at Wiz Y if Wiz Y begins casting. On his Init, Wiz Y begins casting Fireball. Wiz X immediately starts casting and interrupts the casting of Wiz X. (Wiz X's Init is now 14.) Wiz Y takes damage and rolls for the concentration check. If he makes it, he can still cast, otherwise, the spell is lost. The difference between this poorly named "Hostile Counterspelling" and "Counterspelling" is that there is a chance that the Wizard targetted can make his Concentration check and still cast, whereas with COunterspelling, the spell is lost without any check.
Winter Ayars 08-14-05, 07:40 PM	Wow, i always thought this was pretty clear-cut. I even consider "wand of silence" to be standard equipment for spellcasters for much the same reasons. It's "dramatic time", people. "Avada Ke..." "Expelliarmus!" *woosh* Please note that there are lots of options to take in response to this tactic. For instance, pulling out a dagger and pitching it at the offending wizard (or delaying until your physical blender friend to slices up the poor sap) or refocusing (remember THAT anyone? Note that readied actions can carry over between rounds if i remember correctly.) and just blasting the poor sap out of the water next round. When you ready an action you lose that action if you don't take it and, unliked delayed actions, you can't just throw it out anyway at the end of a round. And, as noted, the reason you counterspell is because counterspelling always works (unless you do dispel magic, of course). Maybe it's not wise to let spells be readied to disrupt other spells, but as-written that's the way it works. People are just complaining about it because it seems pretty brutal (which is true) and it appears to contradict the rather strict rules on "more than one spell in a round" that 3e and 3.5 have. This whole talk about spells as atomic actions, while possibly technically true, does not affect the fact that any standard action can be readied. Does this break "realism"? Sure, but so does a lot of other stuff in D&D.
LordHell 08-14-05, 08:11 PM	Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action....If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Cast a Spell Most spells require 1 standard action to cast. CONCENTRATION To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you’re casting, you must make a Concentration check or lose the spell....The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between when you start and when you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action). COUNTERSPELLS How Counterspells Work: To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. The above statements prove by RAW that you can ready an action to interupt anothers spell, and thereby causing them to make a concentration check or lose the spell. By using this action, you cannot cast two spells in one round. You must spend a standard action to ready an action, and after any readied action your initiative count changes to your new place next round. This is a perfectly viable tactic, any any caster on the receiving end should notice an enemy caster readying an action against them, and thus take preventative measures. Remember also you cannot ready an action outside of combat, so initiative is still very important.
Winter Ayars 08-14-05, 08:45 PM	Let me rephrase that: Initiative is very important for a spellcaster. (Not that i'm disagreeing, but i think it should be generalized.) (In addition to my wand of silence and other standard caster tricks i also try to take improved initiative unless i can't fit it in. +4 init with even modest dexterity lets you get on top of the initiative pile regularly and lets your refocuses come out nicely...) As long as you have initiative you can just blast the poor mage enemy to begin with. (Edit: There's also casting on the defensive, but that only stops attacks of opportunity.)
Sapp 08-14-05, 10:28 PM	Wow, i always thought this was pretty clear-cut. I even consider "wand of silence" to be standard equipment for spellcasters for much the same reasons. It's "dramatic time", people. "Avada Ke..." "Expelliarmus!" *woosh* Please note that there are lots of options to take in response to this tactic. For instance, pulling out a dagger and pitching it at the offending wizard (or delaying until your physical blender friend to slices up the poor sap) or refocusing (remember THAT anyone? Note that readied actions can carry over between rounds if i remember correctly.) and just blasting the poor sap out of the water next round. When you ready an action you lose that action if you don't take it and, unliked delayed actions, you can't just throw it out anyway at the end of a round. That would make a lot more sense if the hostile counterspeller lost his spell at the end of a round if the enemy hasn't casted a spell yet. I had always assumed the rules stated specifically referred to full round spells, ones that were actually interruptable by standard action spells. It didn't seem very logical for a wizard to be able to "hold a spell" while waiting for the enemy to begin casting. I always thought that whole point of having Contingency. If the wizard could lose the spell at the end of the round, that handles a lot of the problems I've had with the idea in the first place. I can see the argument for hostile counterspelling, but I still doubt that it's as "clear" as it's claimed to be. There are too many cases against it. That's ok, though; the writers aren't gods, and can be expected to be unclear on some points.
Timlagor 08-14-05, 10:29 PM	Winter: You were somewhat misleading about Readied actions. I'm not sure whether you were mistaken or just unclear - you can spend a standard action ro 'Ready' an action for a given condition - if that condition is met then you take your action and your initiative moves to immediately before the action that triggered yours. - if the condition is not met before your intitiative comes round again then you lose the readied action and take your turn as normal (and can use your standard action to Ready again)
LordHell 08-14-05, 10:50 PM	I can see the argument for hostile counterspelling, but I still doubt that it's as "clear" as it's claimed to be. There are too many cases against it. That's ok, though; the writers aren't gods, and can be expected to be unclear on some points. What case against it? You're main argument is that the SRD states that an 'attack' must be used to disturpt a spellcaster, and you incorrectly assume attack as a melee/ranged attack. WRONG. Re-read my post. The SRD clearly defines that a spell that does damage, requires a saving throw, etc to be an attack. The 'logic' behind readying a spell is quite simple. You say 90% of the words to the spell and leave the last word to 'trigger' the spell out. It even uses this as an example somewhere in the PHB. What is your problem with this? What is the difference between this tactic an an archer readying to disrupt a spellcaster, or a melee fighter?
Sapp 08-15-05, 12:05 AM	You say 90% of the words to the spell and leave the last word to 'trigger' the spell out. It even uses this as an example somewhere in the PHB. Sorry. Must have missed that part. Could you kindly repeat the example? The cases I was considering were Contingency, Counterspelling, casting time of spells... I assumed the concentration checks for damage and saving throws for spells were for full-round spells. Standard action spells to counter full round action spells. Free action (quickened) spells to counter standard action. I didn't know you could leave out the last word of the spell to store it, but if that's the case, then yes, I could see someone saving up a full-round action spell to counter a standard action one. No need to be insulting, just show the explicit example you're referring to in the PHB where a caster stores a spell by leaving the last word to trigger it. You certainly can't blame me for assuming that that was the purpose of contingency.
ShadowDragon8685 08-15-05, 12:17 AM	Is it just me, or is this thread getting out of control? Guys, please? Let's keep it civil? Attacking each other isen't helping. We need to either write to WotC's help desk and get the question answered, or just agree to rule differently in our own games. Come on. We have better things to do than argue, don't we? Advising other players on what to do when their DM seems to expect tactical brilliance (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=482075) springs instantly to mind...
LordHell 08-15-05, 12:30 AM	Once a spellcaster prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a Nearly Cast spell until she uses the components to complete and trigger it or until she abadons it. The complete casting of the spell is triggering it, thus a readied caster has the spell 99% complete, and just waits for the right moment to say the final word. "Why dont casters do this at the start of the day" you may ask, well, you can only ready an action IN COMBAT for balance reasons. + Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.” If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result). + Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone. = Perfectly reasonable, beyond doubt, and legit by RAW.
Sapp 08-15-05, 01:10 AM	Once a spellcaster prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a Nearly Cast spell until she uses the components to complete and trigger it or until she abadons it. Thank you. Could you tell me the page of that quote? I never caught that, and would like to know where to find that next time I have difficulty with the same issue or if it comes up among friends.
Ogmug 08-15-05, 01:10 AM	What you are missing with your first quote is that the spells preparation has a stopping point near the end, but the casting time on the spell is NOT the preparation time. It is the time to finish the casting. I can see the arguement, but it doesn't really seem right. I cannot see anywhere in the RAW where it says you can begin to cast the spell (not prepare the spell) and then wait. But the rules for readied action do state that the readied action are completed before the action that triggers it... and you can prepare a standard action as a readied action. However, logically speaking, readying a sword to swing means putting it into the upswing position. Readying a spell to cast woudl still require the complete spell casting as you cannot hold a non touch spell, or spells with instantaneous duration (with the exception of CLW as stated in the RAW)
Sapp 08-15-05, 01:13 AM	OH! He was referring to preparing the spell... not casting it. Well, then I'm confused again. Thanks for cleaing that up (... er... sort of), Ogmug.
Ogmug 08-15-05, 01:15 AM	Thank you. Could you tell me the page of that quote? I never caught that, and would like to know where to find that next time I have difficulty with the same issue or if it comes up among friends. page 178 of the PHB, under the section : spell selection and preparation. It is however misquoted here, and does not relate to the casting of a spell. It relates to the daily need of spellcasters to replenish spells used during the previous 24 hours.
Ogmug 08-15-05, 01:17 AM	OH! He was referring to preparing the spell... not casting it. Well, then I'm confused again. Thanks for cleaing that up (... er... sort of), Ogmug. Yeah. i have a knack for making things as clear as mud
Ogmug 08-15-05, 01:31 AM	my question is how did the round go? who had initiative? from my understanding the warmage had the init, so decided to ready an action (spell). This means he could not cast another spell that round (so assume there are other creatures that the party had to deal with, else they woudl just bum rush him and prevent further spell casting). So assuming you could do this (and it does make sense, i just can't find it in the raw), then you could effectively prevent this warmage from ever doing damage by just making him counterspell you (assuming you could keep alive from the damage you are taking, such as having a cleric nearby)
LordHell 08-15-05, 02:42 AM	page 178 of the PHB, under the section : spell selection and preparation. It is however misquoted here, and does not relate to the casting of a spell. It relates to the daily need of spellcasters to replenish spells used during the previous 24 hours. Ignoring that, you cannot dispute point 2 & 3. If you are disallowing this rule, then you are making a house rule.
Winter Ayars 08-15-05, 04:23 AM	It didn't seem very logical for a wizard to be able to "hold a spell" while waiting for the enemy to begin casting. I always thought that whole point of having Contingency. If the wizard could lose the spell at the end of the round, that handles a lot of the problems I've had with the idea in the first place. That's because it's not "holding", it's "readying". Contingency has the "IJW" (It Just Works) factor going for it. You don't need initiative, it has more general implications, it's passive and it stacks with readied actions, and so on. As for why the spell isn't "lost"... well, i'm sure if we thought hard enough we could come up with an IC explanation. The purely mechanical side, as far as i'm concerned, has undeniable clarity. (Edit: Or maybe not--see the above posts and such. I'm sure some IC rationalization could be conjured up, though.) I can see the argument for hostile counterspelling, but I still doubt that it's as "clear" as it's claimed to be. There are too many cases against it. That's ok, though; the writers aren't gods, and can be expected to be unclear on some points. Well, we could always prod some of the WOTC officials and get their take. As far as me being unclear or confused: probably unclear. I specifically went and read the SRD prior to the post to ensure i had the details correct. Here's the relevent section out of the SRD (we can quote that, right?) just for the heck of it: From the SRD: Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round. I'm guessing the confusion came with the suggestion to refocus. That's still worthwhile because it means you get to beat out all the other nasties in next round's initiative (hopefully) even if you do still have to contend with the ready spell disruption. Hopefully you combine this with one of the others and also get some friends to make the ready-er's life miserable or something. (Edit: I feel someone should really point out that you're probably not going to want to play your mage against the DM, but rather against the DM's critters. Splitting hairs, i know, but considering the problems it might be worthwhile to examine. As a completely off-topic aside: the words "giant piggy shanker", and the eighteen words and two commas before them, send me into giggle-fits.)
nyysjan 08-15-05, 06:56 AM	Come on. We have better things to do than argue, don't we? Advising other players on what to do when their DM seems to expect tactical brilliance (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=482075) springs instantly to mind... don't think their listening :rolleyes: anyway if the hostile counterspelling is such an obvious thing to do (i hadn't thought of it before) then the player of the wizard should be informed of it, (wizards are smart people, they would have thought of it), if it isn't such an obvious tactic then it should come up only occasionally with the more intelligent BBEG's
AmanitaEata 08-15-05, 10:15 AM	What's with this thread title? Since when do you play "against" the DM?
nyysjan 08-15-05, 10:36 AM	since the DM started acting like a powergamer
Norhg 08-15-05, 10:51 AM	since the DM started acting like a powergamer This thread tittle is the fruit of letting a dm formulate it. -"We know DMs think that way, why can't we" (;))
ShadowDragon8685 08-15-05, 11:47 AM	don't think their listening :rolleyes: anyway if the hostile counterspelling is such an obvious thing to do (i hadn't thought of it before) then the player of the wizard should be informed of it, (wizards are smart people, they would have thought of it), if it isn't such an obvious tactic then it should come up only occasionally with the more intelligent BBEG's I think you're right. Unhappy day, when people don't have time to help out a fellow player in need of advice, but will happily sit here are rules lawyer until the sun goes down, comes back up, and goes down again...
Leewei 08-15-05, 11:47 AM	I think that Readying an action to blast / plink / hack at a spellcaster is certainly a valid tactic. However, I also think that anyone readying an action likely will make their intentions obvious. "The warlock focuses his attention on you, obviously waiting for you to act." "The elf levels an arrow at your chest, but doesn't release...yet." "The orc rushes you, but doesn't swing, instead opting to hold his axe in a "batter-up" posture. Any PC caster in that situation would likely be aware of their enemy's Ready action unless the enemy had Concealment, or else someone was actively distracting the PC (in which case, a Spot check might be necessary). The PC would have several options. First off, a quick 5 foot step back through a doorway, or otherwise breaking Line of Effect would prevent several Readied actions. The readied melee attack probably would not occur, but an AoO is possible. The NPC / critter with the Readied action might have specified "If the guy in the dress begins casting OR steps in any direction." This would trigger the attack but not interrupt a spell. The idea of a Readied action Mexican standoff simply means that both sides are being insufficiently creative.
Quoriil 08-15-05, 12:07 PM	Pardon my lack of understanding here, but what is this argument really about? It seems rather clear from the text in Core that: many spells = attacks AND you may ready an attack to disrupt a spellcaster... The argument against this tactic is claiming that the above is a houserule? The houserule here appears to be that some people chose to apply real-world conceptions of time and action into a fantasy roleplaying game that only works because it simplifies so many actions into standard, move, full round, 1 round and free catagories. In this case you CAN ready a standard action to attack and disrupt. :eek: What the OP was asking for originally was help in teaching his player to learn tricks like this, not arguments that he sucks as a DM because he let his WARmage NPC (war = trained to fight = training = technique = i disrupt you so you don't kill me) act as a warmage should. We should perhaps repeat to the OP that as the player is newb you should explain what actions the NPC is taking (out of game) so that she can in fact learn the tricks that you know so well.
High Octane 08-15-05, 12:10 PM	A PC who notices the enemy is waiting for them to cast a spell should get a bonus against that attack, on either dodging the attack or a bonus on the concentration check for the damage or both. Of course, you are using advanced tactics against a beginner. Thats just not right. Be a little nice and dont run each enemy like they have an int of 21 while shes still learning to play.
Winter Ayars 08-15-05, 01:56 PM	A PC who notices the enemy is waiting for them to cast a spell should get a bonus against that attack, on either dodging the attack or a bonus on the concentration check for the damage or both. Of course, you are using advanced tactics against a beginner. Thats just not right. Be a little nice and dont run each enemy like they have an int of 21 while shes still learning to play. I'm going to disagree here, sort of. I think wearing the kid-gloves is quite appropriate for the first five or so levels, especially with new players, eventually the enemies can start adopting the full range of badness*. At a certain point you can start really throwing stuff at the party. And hey, the mage in question did pick the spell disruption trick up pretty quick right? Just don't TPK or otherwise smash the party and don't expect them to get everything right away. (For example: BBEG in "final confrontation"-like scenario. Fighter and thief (this was 2e and yes i have done this) rush him only to have him pull out a Staff of the Magi and retributive strike it. This particular BBEG was a simulacrum, not the real thing. They sure treated the real deal with more respect when they ran into him in the next play session, though!)
Lalkin 08-15-05, 03:31 PM	This is definitely a house rule, because nothing in the official text explicitly states anything about "hostile counterspelling". For you computer scientists out there, casting a 1-standard action spell is an atomic operation (meaning that it can't be interrupted). These kind of quirks come with "turn based games". However, "hostile counterspelling" works for RTS games such as Baldur's Gate, which rely on 2nd Ed rules. I'm not saying your house rule sucks. It sounds interesting. Not perfectly logical (I'm going to cast magic missile to stop you from casting magic missile!), but neither are atomic operations. Feel free to use whatever house rules you want. Just don't punish your players for not knowing house rules you've made up and have never bothered telling them. OK, I'm just a lurker here but I have to pipe in when people start spouting off when they obviously don't remembeer the rules correctly. PHB 3.5: Page 170, second paragraph after the concertration header. Getting hurt or being affected by hostile magic while trying to cast can break your concertration and ruin the spell. [...] The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it come between when you start and complete a spell [...] or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of oppurtunity [...] or a contigent attack, such as a readied action. This clearly states that readying an attack (be it a sword, bow, or fireball) to strike if someone starts casting is a valid way of preventing them from casting. It is not a house rule. Look it up.
Outlier 08-15-05, 04:51 PM	Pardon my lack of understanding here, but what is this argument really about? It seems rather clear from the text in Core that: many spells = attacks AND you may ready an attack to disrupt a spellcaster... The argument against this tactic is claiming that the above is a houserule? The houserule here appears to be that some people chose to apply real-world conceptions of time and action into a fantasy roleplaying game that only works because it simplifies so many actions into standard, move, full round, 1 round and free catagories. In this case you CAN ready a standard action to attack and disrupt. :eek: What the OP was asking for originally was help in teaching his player to learn tricks like this, not arguments that he sucks as a DM because he let his WARmage NPC (war = trained to fight = training = technique = i disrupt you so you don't kill me) act as a warmage should. We should perhaps repeat to the OP that as the player is newb you should explain what actions the NPC is taking (out of game) so that she can in fact learn the tricks that you know so well. Hear, hear! :clap: The problem with this is that newbie players pretty much have to use their intuition on how things *should* work - they don't think in terms of rule mechanics; they put themselves in the place of their characters and use common sense (or not, but I digress). So there is no reasonable way for her to expect this kind of move unless you *broadly* telegraph your moves. The rules in this game often defy my intuition, and this thread shows I'm not alone. I still think in terms of ancient versions of D&D and other games - it just feels right that spellcasting should have a fixed casting time that is long compared to the time to swing a sword - that was correct in 2.0, but is *not* supported by the RAW for 3.5 aparently. The best solution I've come up with in my own games is to do as Leewei suggests; spell out the tactics that the foes are using whenever I think as a DM that the *characters* would know it. You *cannot* legitimately employ advanced tactics and at the same time play your cards close to the vest with new players. (Advance := anything the player doesn't use routinely). Later, that's fun to do for both sides, of course. Try breaking character every so often and just tell the newbie what your going to do -- just think outloud whenever you're introducing a new tactic: "You lost initiative, so my Warmage has the drop on you. If you look at him wrong, he's going to blast you.... What do you do?"
StormKnight 08-15-05, 05:21 PM	The whole readied 'hostile counterspell' aside, it sounds like the warmage did this to the player twice in a row. This shouldn't really be possible. Round 1: Warmage has initiative, readies action to stop player. Player casts, gets zotted and has concentration interrupted. Now, because readying drops your initiative to behind the person you interrupted, the warmage has lower initiative the next round and cannot ready until after the mage can blast him.
Quoriil 08-15-05, 05:29 PM	Actually, when you make good on your readied action you drop out of initiative limbo to act just before your target. This both makes sense and doesn't. On one hand you are reacting, which intuitively denotes you as having acted after they have begun their action (which is the basis for the confusion about this "hostile counterspell" thing, the name of which seems to have confused a number of folks too :( ). On the other hand (and by the book) you are prememtively acting. This should really be looked at as the "ready" character has anticipated the other characters action and, because of their superior intiative, gotten the drop on them and acted first. So, what the warmage did is actually both the spirit and letter of the rule here. edit: Readying an Action You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
LordHell 08-15-05, 06:01 PM	The whole readied 'hostile counterspell' aside, it sounds like the warmage did this to the player twice in a row. This shouldn't really be possible. Round 1: Warmage has initiative, readies action to stop player. Player casts, gets zotted and has concentration interrupted. Now, because readying drops your initiative to behind the person you interrupted, the warmage has lower initiative the next round and cannot ready until after the mage can blast him. Quoril is right, your initiative count resets to when you took the action, i.e. before the enemy caster. So you can ready again. It's a ***** when you lose initiative, isn't it? This is why improved initiative is probably the most important feat for casters.
StevenO 08-15-05, 09:40 PM	From way back at the end of the first page. Did your new player start play at 1st Level? Secondly, does she own (or have ready access to) the PHB and CArc to study from? Someone new to the game can't be expected to know all the tricks a seasoned vetern knows athough her character may know the tricks. I'd recommend giving the character Int checks every so often as an excuse to drop tactical advice that the character knows even if the player doesn't. She may be learning under fire but wizards are also probably the hardest class to learn to play. It's not like the cleric in that you don't know all the spells (not to mention the cleric's sturdiness) or a sorcerer who only knows so many spells (and can/should study them inside out) but doesn't have to worry which ones to prepare for the day. If possible you may want to redo the character as a sorcerer but in anycase you should either explain some of the tactics you use with her beforehand or hold back on them a little. This thread has turned from what should be a "How do I help a new player adjust" thread into a "Lets argue this ruling/play style" thread. Too bad the orginal intent seem lost and that the PLAYER as probably never even seen this thread. Now to speak of the actual topic. Fact: A player can delay an action until a certain action begins. Fact: Damage during spellcasting requires a Concentration check or spell lost. Argued: Can a delayed action be used for a spell to interfer with spell casting? The rules seem to support that spells can be disrupted (don't call this countering for clarity's sake) by a delayed spell. A proper DM should announce that the NPC is delaying so the player isn't caught off-guard. On a related note: What would happen if the second caster moves up to the warmage and then successfully starts casting defensively? Would the PC get an AoO on the now casting warmage, although she is casting herself, and disrupt the disruption attempt? I wouldn't allow an action that by its very nature allows AoOs to be used in a disruption attempt as the action requires too much concentration to properly time hitting another player. A normal counterspell works by doing the same thing as the other in such a way that it disrupts what they are doing.
TheNatealator 08-15-05, 11:07 PM	I'm sure you meant it, so I'll say it before you get opposition, but we're talking about READIED spells. READIED, not delayed. We already know that delayed actions do not interrupt anybody, anytime. As for not having enough time to cast your spell if the other person has already started casting theirs (which they must start for you to react to it): tell me where it says that every time you cast fireball, it takes x seconds to cast. Tell me where it says a standard action takes x seconds. The only fixed time frame is 6 seconds, but even that is approximate, and merely a way of keeping track of time for mechanical purposes, and because it's a RPG, not a simulation. A standard action "allows you to do something" (PHB, p. 138). It says nothing about them taking 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 seconds, only that you can't perform two in the same round. I think a spell for which the caster is getting ready to cast is going to be cast quicker than the spell just then decided on by another mage. Yes, the other mage might have had a planned spell order, and might be working off of that, but he still didn't ready himself to cast it immediately beforehand. The readied mage will start and finish his spell before the other mage can. By this interpretation of the RAW, you can ready an action against a free action, and a quickened spell as a result. That I could understand making a house rule agianst. And now, to the OP: I am not sure how you can teach your PC the 'tricks of the trade'. Giving her strategies as IC knowledge might take away her sense of achievement or control. I've been having to learn or figure out the tricks of a mage myself, since my limited knowledge of spells is proably still better than that of my DMs (both new). You could encourage her to look here, since that's how I've learned a lot of tricks, like Hostile Counterspelling.
StormKnight 08-16-05, 10:23 AM	Quoril is right, your initiative count resets to when you took the action, i.e. before the enemy caster. Doh! Misread that bit of the rules in the post there. Ok, trying to get back to the actual topic... I'd say if you have inexperienced players its very important to help them by making it clear how the rules are working. Now, we don't know exactly what happened to here. I think its fairly obvious to figure out if an NPC used a certain tactic, and then looks like they are using the same tactic again, that I want to do something about that tactic. Either your player is missing something, or you didn't describe things well. In a case like this, you would want to clearly describe what the warmage is doing. You may even want to give the game mechanic clarification that he is readying. Then, when he hostile-counterspells, explain that he is casting a spell with his readied action. Make it clear to the player what is going on - otherwise she may just think the warmage has some whacky obnoxious feat, or that you as the DM are just being a pain and letting him do things he shouldn't be able to. Another helpful thing for new players is to help them translate what they want to do from dramatic and descriptive terms into game terms. If a player says, "I'll move up and smash him!", suggest using a charge. Eventually they will learn the mechanics, but its better to let them concentrate on enjoying the flavor of the game and not having to stress about which mechanic they should use in each case. When players are stuck for ideas, have them make INT or WIS checks. Spellcraft might be appropriate in your example. "Make a spellcraft check...(player rolls high)...wait a minute, you remember learning about this sort of thing while practicing with a gaurdian mage at your village. She talked about how, with the right timing, you could distract a foe with spells. You seem to remember her talking about dealing with such an opponent by throwing them off with a thrown weapon or physical attack instead." Even players other than the one using a poor tactic can help out. In the example you gave, the other party members should really be doing something about the warmage. A caster is like an artillery piece - they can do a lot of damage, but need to be properly supported and protected. Let's see him distract the sorcerer with the fighter's sword getting stuck in him! Finally, keep in mind that not everyone is interested in a game of tactics. Let's face it, they are choosing to play D&D Roleplaying, not D&D Miniatures. Some people want to enjoy a shared-storytelling experience with action and drama, and don't really care about figuring out the tactical mechanics of the game. If you want to please people like that, you may just have to lay back on the game system. Good luck!
Citizen Fry 08-17-05, 01:44 AM	"I'd personally have to say that yes, you can extend a spell's casting time. So you can start it, and wait for the other guy. This is the magical equavilent of cracking your knuckles and hovering your hand about five inches from your hip, daring the other guy to go for his gun." This actually sounds interesting. When you're waiting for your opponent to draw, you don't necessarily outdraw him. Maybe there should be some sort of DEX/INT/level/initiative check to see who goes first in this situation? OP: When I DM for new players, I usually like to run them individually through a little "boot camp" adventure, like at the start of games such as Halflife or Call of Duty, taking them through the skills they'll be using frequently: attack rolls, skill checks, saves, etc. For casters, especially arcane casters, I'd probably show off counterspelling and aggro counterspelling, especially if I thought it'd come up a lot.
MSW 08-18-05, 01:54 PM	Precocious Apprentice for a single casting of Scorching Ray, and then a Magic Missile. BTW, "Hostile Counterspelling" is the nickname that players in my area have given the act of one mage going "I hold my action until that enemy mage starts casting" and then hitting them with a damage spell as soon as the enemy starts to cast, thereby forcing a concentration check to keep the spell. In the case of the scorching ray the DC 27 Concentration save was a bit much for the party Wiz, and the DC 17 one from Magic Missile resulted in a natural one on the concentration check.How exactly does your NPC mage determine if a person is casting a spell? Especially Instantanious spells like Fireball? Is he making a Spellcraft check to identify that the person is casting? Is he watching their hands from across the battlefield? (requires line of sight maybe a Spot check) Is he doing listening for incantations (need a Listen check modified with penalties for distance and combat sounds near by). The counter to this would be very easy... just pretend to cast a spell. Your mage has to fire, aside from spellcraft check (and if using spellcraft, the instantanious spells usually go off...) Also metamagic (still/silent) would twart your ready mage quite nicely. Scorching Ray has a close range and requires a ranged touch attack as well, so it could easily miss. Shield and broach of shielding renders Magic Missile useless. And of course since the ready action is: "I hold my action until that enemy mage starts casting" That means getting hit by a melee attack, or a ranged attack, or having a bead of force or bead from a necklass of fireballs thrown at him, he'd be screwed, since the at no time does the "mage starts casting"...
Nobuddy 08-18-05, 08:19 PM	Poke her in the eye... what it helped out with our stupid monk who would go around and boot people in the head for no reason... so my character a fellow monk poked out the characters left eye and stated fermly that... what you've never dismembered a party member before... why are you looking at me like that?