Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MyDiceHateMe 07-07-06, 09:46 PM	I have a really great character concept for a paladin character. The problem is, my DM never allows paladins, says they're 'too overpowered.' I don't even want all the paladin abilities that he thinks are broken, just the flavor of the class. So my question is, how do I make a paladin-like character without using the class? Some combo of fighter/cleric? We're starting at level 5.
Whisper_Swiftblade 07-07-06, 09:51 PM	I would go with knight/clearic, but that's just spliting hairs. Other than what you get from a fighter/clearic a paladin is just fluff.
Archmage_Vall 07-07-06, 09:51 PM	How about a fighter or a ranger who acts like a paladin? If you meant mechanically, then yeah, fighter/cleric is about the closest you can get.
FeceMan 07-07-06, 09:53 PM	I have a really great character concept for a paladin character. The problem is, my DM never allows paladins, says they're 'too overpowered.' I don't even want all the paladin abilities that he thinks are broken, just the flavor of the class. So my question is, how do I make a paladin-like character without using the class? Some combo of fighter/cleric? We're starting at level 5. Tell your DM to shut the hell up; he's an idiot. (That's my "I just got off of work and am hungry and cranky" response.) Aside from that, I'd suggest fighter 10/cleric 10 (which isn't very good, but if you're going with more HP/BAB and a few spells/day). I'm sure the CO boards could design something absolutely devious with divine metamagic...and stuff... Honestly, I'd probably go cleric of St. Cuthbert if I were you. It's not extremely paladin-y, but you can smite and get good buffs.
Reversefigure4 07-07-06, 10:11 PM	I have a really great character concept for a paladin character. The problem is, my DM never allows paladins, says they're 'too overpowered.' I don't even want all the paladin abilities that he thinks are broken, just the flavor of the class. So my question is, how do I make a paladin-like character without using the class? Some combo of fighter/cleric? We're starting at level 5. Talk to your DM. Ask if you can play a paladin if you drop abilties X,Y, and Z - the bits he thinks are broken and overpowered. If yes, solution! While Fighter/Cleric is the easy build, there's plenty of other ways to do it. A Bard with Perform: Oratory, who inspires his companions with rousing speeches of courage and prayers to his god. A Barbarian who taps into the power of his god to lend him incredible strength in times of need (Rage). A humble man who has chosen to follow his god's path through humility, walking the earth with neither arms nor armour (Monk). Depends what sort of flavour you are looking for and what sort of character you've got in mind. Remember that a paladin is simply a heroic champion of his god. It can be done with any class.
tharivol266 07-07-06, 10:33 PM	*cough* favored soul *cough*
Archangel_James 07-08-06, 12:50 AM	How about Divine Mind? Certainly a DM who bans a very reasonable class for being overpowered will allow psionics!
Andrew 07-08-06, 01:31 AM	Could you please provide a little more information? First, on what your concept is like or the abilities you are looking to help support it (spells? special mount? smite? LG alignment? high saves?). Second, on what the abilities of a paladin are that your DM thinks are inappropriate (though I disagreee with the idea). Third, what is the range of options your campaign allows? There's a huge volume of material out there, but if your DM has a problem with an average-rated base class (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=369436), there is plenty I expect he will have trouble with. You could, of course, build into Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1) and really fake being a Paladin.
Bob Loblaw 07-08-06, 01:33 AM	What if you offered the idea of playing it as a prestige class instead? You can find the class in Unearthed Arcana or http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestige Paladin, or you can see if he will let you play a variant paladin from UA: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladin Personally, I don't think it would be that big of a deal. You could also consider playing a Ranger/Cleric with the Destruction and Healing domains. This would give you the Smite and the Lay on Hands abilities. Then consider taking the saving throw feats to boost your saves. Maybe you can take some flaws to help you get these without losing out on too many feats. For your animal companion, take a horse. For your favored enemies, you have a lot of options. Consider taking an organization if you can. If not, choose creatures like undead and outsiders (evil). You could throw in some fighter levels to get the extra feats. You could maybe use Knight to get some of his abilities as well. I think it is possible to get a semi-playable fake paladin, but honestly, see if you can get him to allow some of the other options. I forgot to ask, what does he see as overpowered? Maybe we can be of more help if we knew that. If it's just flavor, play a LG fighter or Knight. If it some of the mechanics too, then we will need to know which ones you want.
AvaronGansdell 07-08-06, 01:49 AM	well my favorit paladin..which I consider mechanicly superior to a normal paladin is cleric7/fist of raziel10/cleric3 BAB +17 caster level 19 4 attacks per round 6 or so smites near full spell advancement. but if he is concerned with paladins being broken (really paladins abilitys are often not worth the feats a figher gets in those levels) you could ask if I drop mount and mabye put a restriction on number of detect evils per day mabye 1/day per level of paladin. or easier yet just take all levels of cleric of heronios with the war domain...mabye go into warpriest if you have lower wisdom and or want a bit better BAB but its not nessesary. its all about roleplaying the holy warrior right. Lawful good cleric of a god with the war domain. mabye good or if possible and you can find the right god or your DM will let it slide war and healing are great domains but no god in FR or grayhawk has both domains.
MyDiceHateMe 07-08-06, 02:00 AM	He hates divine grace, but I don't really need that, I'll probably take Iron Will instead anyway, makes more sense for my character.... he says paladins shouldn't be able to turn undead since that takes away from clerics, but I don't care about that one much..... he doesn't like what he calls 'random immunities' ..... but mainly what I want to get that he thinks is overpowered is the mount and smite..... Since he says mount is too powerful, do you think I could get a ranger animal companion or something to be sort of like that but less powerful? I do want a better-than-normal mount since I was going to use a lance, and my DM is famous for attacking people's mounts and I don't want to have to go horse shopping every other session. As for smite, I really like the idea of bringing down the riteous holy fury onto the bad guys, but the only way I can see to take it is Destruction domain, and he won't let me do that since I'm a good character. Maybe get some other ability that works like that but call it smiting?I also want to have some healing but he has no issue with that and that's easy enough to get and the code of conduct we can probably work something out with my backstory. Sorry if this is kind of scattered I'm really tired lol
Trobon the Orange 07-08-06, 02:09 AM	Wow your DM has something out for Paladins. He pretty much said he hates every power they have. 1. Divine Grace is powerful but not over powered. 2. Turn Undead takes nothing away from Clerics since Paladins suck at it 3. Those "Random" Immunities are there because the main things Palaidins fight (Devils and Demons) are notorious for their use of Disease and Poison 4. The last time I heard Mount and Overpowerd in the same sentence was when someone asked me if they could have Pun-Pun as a mount. (They were joking of coarse.
Trobon the Orange 07-08-06, 02:11 AM	BTW a Lawful Good Cleric who worships St. Cuthburt (LN) can get Destruction. Remember you can be 1 step away from the deity you worship.
AvaronGansdell 07-08-06, 02:17 AM	the mount may be stupid..ya know the whole SHAZAM mount appears is kinda lame and all but its not overpowered in any way. see if you can just have the mount with you at all times starting at lv 4 when you get it..no mount no mount mount no mount thing. also ya your DM hates paladins not just a little either. the only time I can see the paladin as being over powered is if the whole game revolves around fighting evil outsiders who love poisoning people. then again many DMs hate paladins because the code of honor and such can leade to tention with the other players and or they dont know how to deal with them properly because they have such a code of honor..I have known DMs who where the same way with allowing jedi characters in star wars games. the other option is the DM who hates anything he dosent understand or considers it broken because he has only see one side of it. in most cases people who call something broken are the ones who dont really understand the power and how it works.
AvaronGansdell 07-08-06, 02:20 AM	Destruction means you like destruction has nothing to do with evil in a old 2e suplement there was a wizard who was nicknamed "The Hurler of stars" he was a large man of easy laughter who had a great love of mountain shattering castle destroying big blast spells. he Didnt want people to get hurt he was just as happy destroying empty old keeps that are a danger to the locals as he was in battle it was the sheer blastyness of it he loved.
Trobon the Orange 07-08-06, 02:24 AM	the mount may be stupid..ya know the whole SHAZAM mount appears is kinda lame and all but its not overpowered in any way. see if you can just have the mount with you at all times starting at lv 4 when you get it..no mount no mount mount no mount thing. also ya your DM hates paladins not just a little either. the only time I can see the paladin as being over powered is if the whole game revolves around fighting evil outsiders who love poisoning people. then again many DMs hate paladins because the code of honor and such can leade to tention with the other players and or they dont know how to deal with them properly because they have such a code of honor..I have known DMs who where the same way with allowing jedi characters in star wars games. the other option is the DM who hates anything he dosent understand or considers it broken because he has only see one side of it. in most cases people who call something broken are the ones who dont really understand the power and how it works. The only difference is that Jedi are over powered. :P Especially in non-revised rules *Shudder* Personally I never disallow players to use character Classes and hate DMs that do. I even let a Samurai into a European campaign. The player explained that he came from a dwarven line of warriors that kept honor at the highest regard and basically fought like samurai. He explained that he would role-play a dwarf not a japanese samurai. I had my reservations at first, but I let him with the agreement that if it didn't work out then he would change it to fighter. Turns out that he was one of the most exciting players to DM in a long time.
Lord Gwydion 07-08-06, 02:48 AM	If I were to do this (I think Paladins have some nice abilities, but are hardly overpowered), I'd go LG Human Cleric 2/Fighter 3. Start with two levels of Cleric (of Pelor), with the Good and Healing domains. Max out Concentration, Diplomacy, and Knowledge (religion). If you've got an Int bonus, take cross class ranks in Ride. For feats, Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will (your Fort save will be good anyway, and over time your Will save will degrade the more Fighter levels you take). If you have enough Int to take Ride, instead of Lightning Reflexes (not a priority for most warrior types), take Mounted Combat. Then as a Fighter, you can focus on either improving your attacks (power attack plus Weapon Focus chain to roughly simulate Smite), or continue with the Mounted Combat feats if you know mounts will be useful in the campaign (sounds like they might not). As you advance, stick mostly with Fighter, but maybe take a new Cleric level now and again, and go for a PrC like Cavalier or Templar or something fairly Paladinish.
IceFractal 07-08-06, 03:15 AM	Cleric/Fist of Raziel sounds like a good idea, but he might not allow PrCs (espeically if he doesn't even allow Paladins), so here's an alternate idea: Plain Cleric. Once you can get Divine Power and make it persistent (Divine Metamagic), you basically become a full-fledged warrior, with full spellcasting to boot. Lay on Hands? Cure spells. Mount? Planar Ally. Smite Evil? Various spells like Holy Word. Detect Evil? Get a wand of it or just prepare it a lot. Divine Grace? No, but you'll have two good saves. As for wielding your weapon of choice, either the War domain or one level of Fighter should cover it. In fact, if you start with Cleric 4/Fighter 1, you'll only be one point of BAB behind a pure Fighter. The important thing is - don't play it as a Cleric, play it as a Paladin. You're not the band-aid, you're the front-liner. Note: If you can't get Divine Metamagic, get a wand of Divine Power instead, and just use it as needed. This won't work quite as ideally, but at least a higher levels you can use Quickened Divine Power to cut down the prep time.
Andrew 07-08-06, 03:43 AM	An Animal Companion would be a great alternative to the Special Mount, especially if your DM likes to shoot them away from you, as huge penalties don't accrue for losing them. The Beastmaster from CV is a good way to get an animal companion, as is Ranger if you can get an alternate combat style, I know there was a mounted combat version in a Dragon somewhere. My personal favorite idea? Eldritch Knight, or Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) if it fits with your campaign setting. Call a phantom steed or two each day to ride, with a speed of 100'+ per round. Forget casting spells with somatic components in combat and use Arcane Strike instead of smite. Maybe go Spellsword for a while to get better use of armor. If you start from Bard or Sorcerer, Charisma remains a priority. For the record, I think your DM drank a tall glass of lame.
MerlintheTuna 07-08-06, 04:44 AM	I'm going to second the cry of "tell your DM to shut up, he's an idiot." Paladins are almost unquestionably the weakest of the full BAB classes in the PHB.
Cifer 07-08-06, 05:45 AM	I'd go for a straight cleric, maybe with a one-level fighter. With their spells, they can easily buff up themselves beyond paladins and, as has been said, there are few things a paladin can do a cleric can't do better with some effort. Detect evil? Ok, maybe not at will, but at the most important situations one spell slot should be enough - and you can maintain concentration for a long time... Smite? Sure Divine Grace? Bear's Endurance, Cat's Grace, Owl's wisdom and certainly some other spells Disease immunity? So what, just cure it. Turn undead? Er... no comment...
Bulletproof_Condom 07-08-06, 08:09 AM	I have a really great character concept for a paladin character. The problem is, my DM never allows paladins, says they're 'too overpowered.' I have two questions for your DM. 1) What are you smoking? 2) Can I have some? Calling paladins overpowered is like calling the Maginot Line an impenetrable wall of defense that will never be breached. Are they powerful? They can be. Are they a match for any of the other classes if the character they're fighting isn't evil? No, not really. Maybe he's clueless about detect evil; a lot of people are. It works just like the spell; it's a 60ft cone that takes a standard action to activate, and you need to stare for three rounds to be able to tell whether or not a specific creature or item is evil. It's not just an always on Evildar. Paladins really aren't that spectacular. I really think you should see if you can get your DM to reconsider.
WayneTheGame 07-08-06, 09:14 AM	I think your best bet would either be the Favored Soul from complete divine (which, IMO is more suitable for a "holy warrior" type than a Paladin; it's more generic and keeps Paladins as a special knightly order or somesuch) or Fighter/Cleric and take.. what is the name of that PrC.. something Templar from CD as well. It gives you a nice bit of paladin-like abilities.
Tzor 07-08-06, 03:10 PM	I don't even want all the paladin abilities that he thinks are broken, just the flavor of the class. I think a lot will depend on what you consider the "flavor of the class." I think is safe to say that no two people have the same concept of paladin flavor. I remember an old 2nd campaign where I played a Dwarf Fighter, who was definitely in the spirit and even the flavor of the paladin class. A lot of the paladin flavor is pure attitude. Fighter is important, I think, unless you want a woodsy paladin which might imply ranger class levels. (Making a favored enemy something evil can also give you a paladin like feel.) Some people think that the flavor of the paladin demands sword use, so fighter or ranger are a must. Lay on hands is a minor function of the paladin, but cleric levels might be helpful. Finally there is the knighthood aspect of the class, from armor to spurs (a mount). The last part is more flavor than function; the proper selection of feats and skills.
Senevri 07-08-06, 03:15 PM	Make a melee cleric. Divine Favor, Divine Power. Ouch. Domain-wise, War and Protection would fit the flavor. Also, Good and Law, and any combination of these.
Pegasos989 07-08-06, 03:38 PM	I have heard debates of over- or underpowered classes of cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, fighter and prestige classes to the previous ones and barbarian but never that paladins would be overpowered. They seem to be nearly only class that people find well balanced! But really, favored sould of heironeus might be quite near the concept.
utilitarian 07-08-06, 03:45 PM	Fighter/Cleric, or hell just straight cleric. Cleric, take like the War or Strength domain or something. Make libral use of Divine Power and Divine Favor spells.
Mystyc 07-08-06, 03:58 PM	Favored Soul is definitely a good way to go. By knowing detect evil and cure spells, you emulate two important Paladin abilities -- detecting and lay on hands. The all-good saves mimic Divine Grace decently, but a feat to shore a bad one up wouldn't be out of place. Leadership to gain a cohort mount may be a very nice choice as well -- those guys tend to be very strong, I understand. If you can find the Knowledge ranks, Shining Blade of Heironeous (CD) is a good PrC, or maybe Platinum Knight (Drac) for a dragonish flavor, and depending on how restrictive your DM is, Hospitaler could be a good choice. Pious Templar is good if you can convince the DM to convert its spells into half spell progression of a previous class, or if you start from straight-up Fighter.
LivingShadow 07-08-06, 05:11 PM	i'm not sure if he would allow it but "shadowbane inquisitor" you would need to start as a cleric rouge but you get many paladin-like abilities
Fangthane 07-08-06, 05:12 PM	or you could just play something else that catches your interest for the moment, then in the parties darkest hour slaughter every one of you group mates and smile at the DM and say, "If I was a paladin, that would never have happend". :D
Stormbrand 07-08-06, 05:34 PM	Your DM thinks a special mount is too powerful BECAUSE he likes attacking peoples mounts. Put chain barding on a boosted warhorse and his favourite tactic isn't going to do very much. "Random immunities" are not random at all. Does the DM use fear alot? Maybe he is fairly controlling with his encounters and plots? The "problem" with paladins is things do not work well against them. If the guy is fond of being able to do nasty things to the PCs then he won't like a class that is resistant to things.
kelvinaw273 07-08-06, 06:23 PM	Favoured Soul, Fighter or Knight and see if your Dm likes the Prestige Paladin from UA instead :D
xlivid 07-08-06, 07:36 PM	A paladin is a respected warrior. Even though it comes with dozens of blessings from his prefered deity, he will always be limited and bound to his Code of Conduct and the dogma of his prefered deity. Two aspects which severly limit the actions of a paladin (No cheating or lying, dealing with evil characters, etc) Please pursuade your DM to see this trade-off and punish the paladin accordingly. I play a lvl 3 paladin (Aasimar in Forgotton Realms setting). I always consult my DM if an action conflicts with the code of conduct (Kelemvore doesn't really care much about non-death related topics, thats a plus) so my little paladin won't get stripped from its powers. While personally my (OC) character would beter match a chaotic roque I play a paladin which strictly lives by the rules. Allthough he is respected and looked up too... I still can't kill people at random without loosing my powers.. somehow other classes can't loose their powers. And if your DM thinks a paladin are to mighty, let him intensify the load of enemies and see the paladin die (ultimately proving the paladin isn't to powerfull) In short: The paladin is a well balanced machine between restriction and power.
Andorxor 07-09-06, 02:01 AM	I think your Dm hates horses not paladins.
Zillah 07-09-06, 02:03 AM	im sorry. your DM is an idiot
Otto the Bugbear 07-09-06, 02:21 PM	"In fact, the highest, subtlest, most effective form of powergaming of all is to play the character your DM wishes he were playing." -- Tony Vargas Careful of the row you hoe with this one. If the DM is basically banning paladins, and then when you play classes that basically boil down to playing a paladin, he may be a little upset with you. That said, I'd still do it. A lot of the classes and/or class combinations have already been covered. I'd do this one. Human Fighter 2 / Cleric 5 (war domain + 1 other) / Hospitaller 7 / Warpriest 6. Feats (12 total): Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Combat Casting, Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Sacred Boost, Practiced Spellcaster, Extra Turning, and/or what strikes your fancy. 7th level cleric spells (at CL 17), turn undead, good saves, remove disease, allies gain extra save v. fear if they can hear you, allies gain bonus v. charm and fear for those who can hear you, aura of fear, heroes feast, 4 bonus feats, mass cure light wounds, and a +18 BAB. Most of this stuff comes in later than a true paladin, but it certainly fits the bill. After gaining fighter 2 / cleric 5, switch back and forth between warpriest and hospitaller. The other classes to consider are Pious Templar (CD), Holy Liberator (CD) or Fist of Raziel (BoED). Good luck Otto :)
Steidas 07-09-06, 05:28 PM	Favored Soul with a lot of Str, or a lot of Dex. That's how I want to play my next Paladin.