Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Faragon 09-24-04, 06:56 AM	Post your ways of protecting your wizard's precious spellbook from the DM/the party rogue :) - Alarm Spell - Have your familiar guard it inside your backpack. Especially useful with a Bat familiar, who has blindsight 120ft. - Cast Grease on your spelllbook. If they try and grab it, it's like a bar of soap. Their stuntling to try and get it will surely wake someone up. - Fire Trap. I'd advise using it on your backpack, and strapping that to yourself tightly when going to sleep. Or to the barbarian :) Make sure they will actually have to open the backpack in order to get to the spellbook. If you have a Belt of Many Pockets, use that. Maybe even use Arcane Lock on the buckle to make sure they can't simply take it off you. Yes I'm paranoid and thorough when it comes to my spellbook ;) - Shrink Item/Reduce, hide it in your boot. - Magic Mouth, set to loudly begin singing "HAAAAALELUJAH! HAAAAALELUJAH!" (or something more practical, but I like the flavour of someone trying to silently steal your book and then suddenly being blasted with church music :)) as soon as someone takes the book 5ft away from you. That'll wake you up to blast the thief into oblivion. Combine it with Nystul's Undetectable Aura if you're afraid a fellow mage might be interested in your book (since he might recognize the magic mouth spell) Or ways to strike back at those who stole it if you have been unable to prevent them from doing it. - Hiding a page with Explosive Runes on a random page in the book. The moment they read it, KABOOM. - Always carry a scroll of Locate Object. Might be useless against someone who moved out of the area of effect, but if your party's thief has it, you'll know. Or ways to retrieve the book easily in case the DM pulled a "You suddenly arrive there, without any of your equipment. Yes that means no divine focus for the clerics and no spellbook for the wizard" on your spellcasting arse :) Sofar I haven't found anything for this yet.
Thorak 09-24-04, 08:14 AM	Standing agreement that if the DM or the party rogue take away my spellbook, I'm standing up, walking around the table, and cuffing them upside the head. Because for a DM, it's railroading unless I was blatantly stupid (in which case, I have only myself to blame), and if it's the rogue, he needs to learn what being in a "party" entails. Works better than any kind of in-game mechanic I could ever think of, because someone'll find a way around anything, given enough time.
Master Agnald 09-24-04, 08:39 AM	Shrink item/Reduce. Hide it in your pants. I doubt any one will dare try looking there (unless you're playing a female... then you'll be rather screwed.. no, not in THAT way ><).
Eladris 09-24-04, 09:33 AM	You know, if you kept your bat in a backpack I would argue that its Blindsight is limited to... Well, the backpack. Sure it's not in the rules (?), but if I stuff a dwarf in a 5 ft. x 5 ft. x 5 ft. box, he still has Darkvision, but he can't see anything outside of the box (without magic, at least). My Illusionist used to hide his book in a dimensional pocket. :D
Ssussunriyh 09-24-04, 10:32 AM	Standing agreement that if the DM or the party rogue take away my spellbook, I'm standing up, walking around the table, and cuffing them upside the head. Because for a DM, it's railroading unless I was blatantly stupid (in which case, I have only myself to blame), and if it's the rogue, he needs to learn what being in a "party" entails. Works better than any kind of in-game mechanic I could ever think of, because someone'll find a way around anything, given enough time. I agree 100%. A wise man once said, "Some things just ain't funny." It's infantile and patently stupid for the party rogue to steal from his (supposed) comrades, especially something that he can't make any use of. And it's equally infantile and an abuse of power for the DM to arbitrarily deprive a wizard of his most essential piece of equipment. A fighter minus his sword can improvise a weapon from whatever may be at hand, or take one from a fallen enemy. But a wizard without his spellbook is powerless, in a very literal sense.
Mr Waverly 09-24-04, 12:14 PM	The rouge in my group once stole my spell component pouch thinking it was a money pouch. He we too useless to sneak it back onto me. I think our GM definately enjoyed playing that trick on us.
krichaiushii 09-24-04, 04:26 PM	If losing your spellbook is that big a worry (which is DM-dependent), then consider the feat Spell Mastery. Among the spells you should consider for it are Locate Object and Teleport (w/o Error) - the former to help find the lost book, and the latter for retrieving it. A defensive and offensive spell are recommended, too. ;) If possible (again, DM-dependent) consider making a backup spellbook and storing it someplace secure, or even multiple backups. In addition, find out what rules, if any, your DM has on using captured or otherwise not written by you spellbooks. If he has none, try to get some (preferably in your favor!) and go from there. But overall, taking a PC wizard's spellbook is a pretty rotten thing - even for story purposes. Destroying it is even worse.
NinjaHedge 09-24-04, 06:27 PM	make multiple copies of your spellbook. Keep one on your person, one back at your house or tower or whatever, give one to the party rouge. I don't know why anyone in the party would steal your book. That's like thw wizard stealing the fighter's sword. What the hell is he going to do with it, and that's what the fighter was using to protect the wizard. I do think you should take some consideration of protecting your spellbook, and it's not mean for the DM to try once in a blue moon to steal it or create a situation where you cannot have it, as long as he does so within the bounds of good taste. No just having a dragon appear out of no where, incinerate his spellbook, and disappear. But it's a valuable object, it would be absurd to go your career without a thief trying to get at it at least once.
Vegeta8472 09-24-04, 06:34 PM	I'd never destroy that, or a cleric's holy symbol (or a paladin's mount, ect). At least if I stole something like that from my players they know I only threw that in because they made some big mistakes that got them captured. Then it's a matter of getting stuff back and bolting. But a glove/gauntlet of storing works great. I can't remember the name, but it shrinks an item to almost nothing and stores it in the glove perfectly.
Big__Chops 09-24-04, 07:27 PM	I am only 5th level and have lost 2 spell books. Neither were DM's fault. The first one I lost to randome die roll of stuff I lost when I fell into a rageing river (failed reflex save) and the second one was taken when we were taken hostage and our ranger decided to try experementing with black powder kegs, fire, and support collumns. Needless to say we chose to flee as opposed to looking for our things. To make matters worse I lost a hand to a Crit and was carrying it but lost that too in our frantic dash out of the collapseing cave. :( As far as wizards go I have the worst luck.
thugpoetry 09-24-04, 10:47 PM	I fail to see why you have the god-given right to keep ANYTHING. Wizards get to be so bloody powerful it's not funny... but without their book, their spells all of a sudden become even more of a limited resource. When I DM, nothing is safe. That sword that the PC has designed everything around using? Ganked. The holy symbol that the cleric needs to cast his spells? Gone. And I don't need to use random rogues (though I will) or DM Majick (try not to). Especially especially ESPECIALLY if you make someone mad, what better way to sabotage you than to take the possession that is the key to opening your power. The bow that the Archer has put sooo many resources into? Makes a nice toothpick for a larger fellow. Aww...I'm sorry..did I just make you step outside your same little box? Yeah, it'll twerk you off. If you're a roleplayer worth your salt, you'll find a way to get it back. And I'll always leave you a way (or ten) to get it back. Completely destroying something like that is something that goes beyond even my twisted sense of humor. Yeah, fighters can improvise a weapon from just about anything. That's a class feature of a FIGHTer. Can a fighter completely dominate upper level play? No, they can't. What they can do is give you what they give you, no matter what you throw at them. And it's not like Wizards are nothing but spellcasters. Knowledges are your friend. If you play your wizards to be able to do nothing BUT magic...then when your magic is attacked, you're gonna be useless. Nothing says that I, as a DM, can't use every single weakness you have against you. You're maxing out your advantages every chance you get (and if you aren't...well...that's something else). As a DM, it's my responsibility to give you challanges. If it's too harsh for you, then I'd invite you to find another game, which is always an option that the players have (and one I've exercised as a player/had happen as a DM). I'm not able to force you to come spend a considerable chunk of your nominally free time with me, at my game. But, if you do come, you agree that my game does something for you. An understood rule at any table that I'm at, gaming or otherwise, is that if you smack me, you get the consequences that will naturally accrue from your actions. :) Also, if you want to make doubly sure that your spellbooks aren't lost...play a sorcerer. :D Just to head off a possible flame...I've played a Wizard that couldn't use their spellbook...couldn't pick it up with the hands, yet still had to keep it if I wanted it. I found a way to get 'er done. If the DM doesn't leave any way to get your stuff back, then that's uncool and deserving of a smack/other revenge.
darkwave 09-25-04, 11:30 AM	Well, I know how annoying it is for ones character to lose a spellbook, and I also know how much MORE annoying it is to lose it to DM fiat. Due to that I've NEVER taken a spellbook due to fiat, even when a player really ticks me off. I've also never -> intentionally <- gone for a TPK, nor even ANY player kills. However I do like to give each player a "highlight" once in a while that pushes them to higher standards. This has lately been impossible for clerics + druid for me, but that's probably my fault. :( A wizard character that doesn't do some of the things mentioned above almost DESERVES spellbook loss. Not due to fiat (which I think rots), but because of their leaving HUGE options wide open that an enemy NPC would have to be moronic to leave open. Also, now that the search function is up some of the time, you should see some posts elsewhere on how to keep a spellbook, but one that I’d mention that is SO easy is to take a small section of rope and attach it to the bottom of the wizard’s backpack. Then use that rope to tie to the spellbook. It’s not like a wizard needs to whip out their spellbook in the middle of battle! A half minute to secure it and remove it when needed would have saved problems already mentioned here (works GREAT BTW when one uses the Arcane Lock on a “clamshell” that surrounds your spellbook and keeps it protected from the environment). About the Arcane Lock, if your spellbook is inside the “clamshell” when you cast it, you don’t need to spend spells to get it out, you can always get through your own lock, which means one can put all SORTS of defensive spells on the SHELL as well as the book, ones that you don’t have to worry about setting off – and the shell protects the book in some cases too…. I guess my net is a wizard that doesn't protect their spellbook isn't much of a wizard, and should be slapped if the whine when they lose it. The flip side is DMs that ARBITRARILY decide to take it away should have the same done to them.
meabolex 09-25-04, 12:26 PM	Standing agreement that if the DM or the party rogue take away my spellbook, I'm standing up, walking around the table, and cuffing them upside the head. Because for a DM, it's railroading unless I was blatantly stupid (in which case, I have only myself to blame), and if it's the rogue, he needs to learn what being in a "party" entails. So, getting captured is railroading or an indication that your blatantly stupid? Rolling a 1 on a fireball save and having your equipment catch on fire is railroading or an indication that you're blatantly stupid? Any other situation where your equipment catches on fire is railroading or your stupidity? A creature making a slight-of-hand check (DC 20) is railroading? An NPC or creature (ethereal filtcher) that uses said slight-of-hand check is railroading? The spellbook is a target -- plain and simple. It's a vulnerability to the wizard. And while there are PLENTY of ways to prevent your spellbook from being stolen or destroyed, there's no perfect method to protect it. My suggestion: Take Spell Mastery at a high enough level.
Darrett 09-25-04, 01:41 PM	I don't see anything wrong with a DM taking away a Weapon, Spellbook or Holy Symbol from a player. It's common knowledge that those things are the key to power for most classes; A Ranger without his Bow +4 of Rapid Shot is going to be reduced in power. A Wizard without his Spellbook is reduced in power, as is a Cleric sans his Holy Symbol. Your enemies know this. They're going to try to take things that help you away. If you never get the chance to get them back (It doesn't have to be obvious, but there should be something you can do/find out) then I'd be upset about the way the DM was running things.
Tehril 09-25-04, 11:42 PM	um... A ranger without his bow can rely on a melee weapon quite nicely. A fighter can simply grab a backup weapon and take a better one off his fallen nemesis. A cleric can get another holy symbol for 1gp... and quite frankly, any cleric worth his salt should have AT LEAST 2 holy symbols...and he can pray for spells anyways... which means as soon as he gets his hands on a divine focus he can CAST right away. A wizard, once his memorized spell slots are used, without his spell books is little better than a commoner with alot of hit points... spell mastery aside. (spell mastery can be a temporary solution, but it by no means is a perfect one). Even if he gets it back, he must study his spells again to be able to cast once more. Truthfully, I have yet to meet an enemy wizard that travels with a spell book...and usually most have but a scant few scrolls. That makes spell aquisition hard enough as it is, ignore spell replacement. If the book cannot be rescued immediately, the wizard becomes nothing more than dead weight to the party (gee...reminds me of levels 1-5). No other class faces such a resource drain, just to be able to perform their basic class abilities. Yes, multiple spell books is a VERY good idea.... it's also a very EXPENSIVE idea that requires a stable place to keep that spell book...such as a base of operations. How many adventuring parties have a permanent base of operations, at least below 10th level?
Darrett 09-25-04, 11:55 PM	um... A ranger without his bow can rely on a melee weapon quite nicely. A fighter can simply grab a backup weapon and take a better one off his fallen nemesis. A cleric can get another holy symbol for 1gp... and quite frankly, any cleric worth his salt should have AT LEAST 2 holy symbols...and he can pray for spells anyways... which means as soon as he gets his hands on a divine focus he can CAST right away. A wizard, once his memorized spell slots are used, without his spell books is little better than a commoner with alot of hit points... spell mastery aside. (spell mastery can be a temporary solution, but it by no means is a perfect one). Even if he gets it back, he must study his spells again to be able to cast once more. A Ranger without his bow can fight, sure, but not as well as he could if he still had his bow. A fighter doesn't go down -too- much in power, but that's one of the advantages of the fighter class. A Cleric with two or more holy symbols could find all of them stolen, not just the one... and he needs the Holy Symbol. A Wizard is reduced in power more, yes, but that's one of the disadvantages of the Wizard. It's not unfair to the Wizard, it's a class drawback that is underused. Wizards are extremely powerful at higher levels. They need to be balanced by making the class disadvantages come into play. I've also made Rogues go after the party Sorcerer... and wake him up while trying to find his spellbook.
Araciel 09-26-04, 04:40 AM	well, what seems to be the topic of this thread now is balance of power.... of which i can only say one thing it's relative classes are inherently different, with different abilities and drawbacks. a high-level wizard with a spellbook is arguably one of the most powerful characters if played correctly, in and out of combat. without his spellbook, a wizard has few things to rely on....magic items which he may have created, which have drained his xp...knowlege skills, and his familiar, for which you could make a miniature version of the spell book hehe anyways, what i'm tryin to say is loss of a spellbook is nothin to cry about. if things like this always happen to the party, it's time to get a new dm, unless it's by happenstance alone, like destruction by fire, weather, bad rolls, or hungry pc half-orc barbarians. that being said, a wizard CAN improvise with other spellbooks, scrolls, wands, etc, though these may be in short supply in some world, you would know this by your dms style of play and the way the campaign world works, and would have no doubt considered this when you made a wizard as a character in the first place instead of a sorcerer. yay
Big__Chops 09-26-04, 11:44 AM	As a side note Look into the option of ELF Paragon If you are an elf wizard as it adds levels to wizard too and it REALLY REALLY helps you dish out an arss whoopin with a long sword. People Seem to forget that although you Dont have your spell book you can still fight. Crossbows are also invalueable. If you have a weakness WORK AROUND IT!!!!! You can be a good role player and improvise a Solution or you can use your powers like a crutch and fall when you lose access to your power.
BetaFlame 09-26-04, 02:03 PM	Research a spell that creates an exact duplicate of an item, and duplicate the crap out of your spell book. Put one in your backpack, your inn room, your stronghold, give one to each member of your party, pay a barkeep in a town to frequent to "stable" a few. If you are really worried, get (buy/make) wands of spells you use alot. If your spellbook gets stolen, you can -still- cast lightning bolt out of a wand 50 times.
Thorak 09-26-04, 02:21 PM	So, getting captured is railroading or an indication that your blatantly stupid? Rolling a 1 on a fireball save and having your equipment catch on fire is railroading or an indication that you're blatantly stupid? Any other situation where your equipment catches on fire is railroading or your stupidity? A creature making a slight-of-hand check (DC 20) is railroading? An NPC or creature (ethereal filtcher) that uses said slight-of-hand check is railroading? In order; Yes, if we weren't given a chance to fight and/or they were so grossly overpowering us there wasn't a remote chance of getting away, that's railroading. Failing a save isn't stupid, leaving your spellbook somewhere vulnerable to fire is. Ditto. If the entire purpose is to screw the mage out of his spellbook, yes, this can be railroading. Ditto, if you're making Sleight-of-hand checks that are almost impossible to fail and/or you're only stealing from the mage, you're unfairly targetting him and/or making it near impossible for him to keep his spellbook. Which is railroading. If there's a fair chance of avoiding it, then failure on the part of the mage is an indication that they weren't smart enough. If there isn't a fair chance of avoiding it, it's railroading. Any mage silly enough to leave his very flammable spellbook in a nice, flammable pouch ready to catch light deserves to lose their spellbook. All my mages always keep their spellbooks protected, preferably in an insulated metal watertight box. It may not be utterly immune to heat, but it'll sure last through a fireball. The spellbook is a target -- plain and simple. It's a vulnerability to the wizard. And while there are PLENTY of ways to prevent your spellbook from being stolen or destroyed, there's no perfect method to protect it. My suggestion: Take Spell Mastery at a high enough level. No perfect method, no. But as others mentioned, at high levels you definetely want extra copies somewhere, so losing one is only a temporary loss. Even at low levels, if you can afford it. And there's plenty of ways to avoid accidental loss, exept for completely egregious circumstances like having your backpack fail it's save against the fireball and fall off your back while you're dangling over a pit of lava. And your spellbook, in it's protective case, was in the backpack. And pickpocketing it, while a smart thing for a BBEG to do, is railroading if you don't give the mage a fair shot at detecting it. The same way confronting a level 2 party with an Angry Ancient Red Dragon is railroading, if you don't want them entering that cavern.
Darrett 09-26-04, 06:53 PM	And pickpocketing it, while a smart thing for a BBEG to do, is railroading if you don't give the mage a fair shot at detecting it. The same way confronting a level 2 party with an Angry Ancient Red Dragon is railroading, if you don't want them entering that cavern. He'd have the same chance at detecting it as anyone would... most likely, he's going to be asleep. He gets the chance to detect the Rogue moving silently as normal, with the modifiers for sleeping. If he's set up an alarm, there's a chance that will warn him. If the party sentry is around, he'll get a shot at noticing the Rogue. It should be a Rogue of equal or slightly lower level, unless there's a specific reason. It wouldn't likely be a pickpocket, as the Wizard won't be sleeping with his book. It'll be a move silently, then a simple "pick up" action.
CrippleMrOnion 09-26-04, 07:50 PM	I agree with meabolex, Darrett, thugpoetry, and all the others of that vein; if a wizard doesn't protect his spellbook, it's game to take. Thorak, when you suggest giving a mage a "fair" shot at detecting it, are you suggesting tailoring the check/situation to the mage's ability? If so, isn't that analogous to making traps that anyone party can find if no one chose to be a mage, or, even worse, avoiding using enemies with cold iron DR if no one in the party thought to buy a cold iron weapon? I agree that parties shouldn't be put into situations that they flat-out can't handle, but running away is a way of handling things. Similarly, a the wizard who chose not to put cc skill points in spot DID have a chance to detect the pickpocket; he just indirectly chose not to. Avoiding a parties weaknesses is bad DMing, just as constantly exploiting them would be. Spellbooks are targets; if you're smart enough to protect one in the fire/waterproof box, that's great, and I'm sure the weight would make it hard to pickpocket, too. But that doesn't mean that someone, somewhere, won't find another way to get it IF you give them enough reason to. That isn't exploiting a weakness, it's making players feel the consequences of their actions, and it's not railroading, it's using a plot twist. Overused, they can be annoying, but just using them once in a while is realistic DMing.
Rosisha 09-27-04, 07:51 PM	My problem with this whole spell book debate is simple: Classes are balanced towards each other. So a wizard should be balanced to a sorcerer etc. I know some disagree, but thats the way i see it. Especially at higher levels. In one recent game the DM made it impossible for us to win a fight. Basically sait it outright when I continued to resist (with the threat he would simply kill my wizard outright). So we are captured, and stripped of our equipment. We find an escape tunnel, and get stuck in a dungeon full of nasties we have to fight our way through. Of course, all of that is meaningless for me because I'm not doing anything. As a third level wizard, I had almost no hit points, very low armor class, and very few spells (during the fight I burned most of my attack spells, thinking, stupidly, that the DM gave us a hard fight to test us, and we could still win). So I spent the entire adventure doing nothing. i couldn't run away, because there was no place to run too. I couldn't cast spells, MY PRIMARY CLASS FEATURE, because I didn't have a spell book. I tried using alchemy skills, but the DM ruled that I couldn't make things with the limited resources avalable. So I was like, "Well I have a lot of knowledge skills, those can be of help." Except, he ruled that none of them could really help in our situation cause they were not specific enough. So I had one craft skill for making weapons (i had dreams of taking Craft Magic Arms and Armor at some point), but he said I couldn't make crude weapons because the skill depends on the necessary tools being available (i.e. I couldn't use a dagger we found to sharpen a stick for christ sake). So I did nothing. All I could do is sit back and have a drink. I think I read a book. It was really annoying and I was really upset. I was looking forward to the game for weeks, and then "bam" sidelined with nothing to do. If you think wizards are too powerful then BAN THEM AT FIRST LEVEL. Do NOT let your player take them at all. If you do not think they are too powerful, then don't take away their ONLY ability. Or I will smack you, and you will deserve it. Rosisha, Rule 0 is countered by Zero Tolerence.
meabolex 09-27-04, 09:17 PM	Of course, all of that is meaningless for me because I'm not doing anything. As a third level wizard, I had almost no hit points, very low armor class, and very few spells (during the fight I burned most of my attack spells, thinking, stupidly, that the DM gave us a hard fight to test us, and we could still win). So I spent the entire adventure doing nothing. i couldn't run away, because there was no place to run too. You know, I had a similar kind of problem once as a wizard. It was actually one of my first times playing a low-level wizard. I had prepared almost all my spells per day as ranged touch attack spells (just like a poorly designed sorcerer). I figured, hmmm, they deal the most damage, I smell a combat coming up, they should be really effective! So I find out that we're going to be protecting the VIP in a hostile area. We're stationed in a specific multi-roomed house and advised not to leave. Soon, bad guys begin coming through the roof, through the floor, through anything and everything. My teammates spread out in an arc around me and block virtually all the enemies from me. But see, I didn't have Precise Shot, so I got a -4 to hit to hit the baddies in melee combat (which almost all of them were with my team). Also, my teammates didn't realize that they were blocking the enemy from me, giving the enemy a +4 AC cover bonus. So I'm taking a -8 to hit almost all night long AND getting consistent low rolls. Two of my ~10 ranged touch spells found their mark -- one was against a lone wizard and one was against a single enemy who managed to get past my team. A bunch of spells cast over the night -- only two hit (and one kills). The entire evening I was being driven crazy by the fact that I had prepared bad spells for this circumstance. I was being driven crazy that my team, while trying to do the right thing, constantly stymied my efforts to ranged-touch-attack the baddies. And in addition, my luck was crazy bad. It was just bad preparation on my part. . . putting all my eggs in one basket, so to speak. So you have a third level wizard. You get in a combat that's too much for you. As a DM, I've put PCs in that situation before -- the main problem is lack of communication between the PCs and DM in how serious the encounter is. If the PCs aren't fully aware of the situation, they can't respond accurately to it. If they start hurling magic missiles at a guy and they're barely scratching him, the players need to know! At third level, you get the greatest low-level escape spell in D&D -- invisibility. Unless the circumstances were extremely dire (which you didn't mention), invisibility should have taken you out of that situation. Perhaps obscuring mist, fog cloud, spider climb, expeditious retreat (I doubt this one since you had nowhere to run), or even disguise self may have saved you. Again, I don't know the exact situation, but something tells me some spell would have saved you (and maybe just you). You could have had illusion as a prohibited school. . . but even then there were other possibilities. But let's assume that, despite your spell preparation, the DM screws you over. Well, that's just bad DMing. . . but if different prepared spells would have made a difference, you can't blame the DM. It sounds to me like the DM was going to get you captured no matter what. Either he's a jackass, there was a communication error, or you did something that was guaranteed to get you captured no matter what.
Thorak 09-27-04, 09:44 PM	I agree with meabolex, Darrett, thugpoetry, and all the others of that vein; if a wizard doesn't protect his spellbook, it's game to take. Thorak, when you suggest giving a mage a "fair" shot at detecting it, are you suggesting tailoring the check/situation to the mage's ability? If so, isn't that analogous to making traps that anyone party can find if no one chose to be a mage, or, even worse, avoiding using enemies with cold iron DR if no one in the party thought to buy a cold iron weapon? Not at all. I'm only suggesting that confronting a 3rd level mage with an Invisible level 18 Rogue with tons of skill points in Move Silently, Hide, and Sleight of Hand, just because the DM wants to snag the spellbook, isn't fair. If it were a level 5 or 6 thief, there'd at least be a reasonable chance of him muffing it, compared to the party level. That's all I meant. If the DM fabricates a situation where it's almost impossible for his NPC to fail, regardless of the PC's actions, then he's railroading. He may as well stop rolling and just tell them what's going to happen to them at this point.
TheGreenGriffon 09-27-04, 10:25 PM	Although this isnt really that practical unless your high level and have lots of gold to burn but my Wizard in the realms has a ten sets of spellsbooks containing all his spells deposited across the realms in various locations that are extremely hard to get into and extremely well hidden in the sense that they arent buildings or marked locations like dungeons or caves. My favorite spellbook stash is simply called. The dome. Deep within the spine of the world smack dab in the middle of soild stone with no tunnels or doors is a spherical chamber. In the center sits my spellbooks contained within spell trap matrix contained within a permanent prismatic sphere. within the room are 4 Iron Golems to guard and destroy any who enter the chamber if it somehow manages to happen. For a nasty suprise the Golems are wrapped with powerful illusions to make them appear as my wizard, they are alsoequipped with Magic mouth spells that spout various phrasres and lectures on the hazards of invading peoples privacy and taking what doesnt belong to them as the Golems trash them. Contained within the Iron Golems are Bound Spectre's that will be released should the golems be destroyed although they are not controlled but they will more than likely be quite upset and attack anyone close by. I know its quite obscene but I had lots of Gold by 23rd level and have lots of original spells I dont want enemies or anyone else to have. The chamber is also protected by Private Sanctum spells and Dimensional barriers to prevent scrying and teleporting. Only someone with a special token which is keyed to a certain bloodline can teleport into the sphere without being attacked by the golems.
Cold Napalm 09-28-04, 07:35 AM	At exceedingly high levels...i.e. epic/near epic, multiple spell books become feasable...with the cost to scribe spell however, it's not however before. I mean really, you'll have trouble enough to scribe any spell at the first few levels...assuming standard treasure. much less a stingy DM. I've seen games where we had level 3-5 character that still had all their basic gear from level 1 and the mage scribed a grand total of 1 level 1 spell. You wanna control a wizards power? Control the gold. Pure and simple. Doing anything to a wizard's spell book...i.e. taking it or worse destroying it is unwarranted and if you plan on doing that, you might as well just tell your player not to play wizards at all. Worse still, there is no rules for using captured spell books so a DM may say you have to rescribe all those spell before you can use it...and by the rules that is actually what you have to do. So a fighter need 15 gold for a lomngsword to fight again, a cleric need 1 gp for a holy symbol, a rogue need 2 gp for a dagger, a ranger needs a whomping 75 gp for a long bow and 1 gp for arrows and the wizard need 10000 gp to rescribe that spell book(assuming the DM was nice enough to give you a spell book captured...otherwise you look at closer to 10x that amount)...umm yeah. Using failed saves on spell book is also something I consider stupid. Yeah it's by the rules but a 1 shows up 5% of the time...so if you destroy a spellbook everytime you botch a fireball save...how the hell does any wizard keep any spellbooks with them?
Thorak 09-28-04, 10:29 AM	The chamber is also protected by Private Sanctum spells and Dimensional barriers to prevent scrying and teleporting. Only someone with a special token which is keyed to a certain bloodline can teleport into the sphere without being attacked by the golems. So, if their intent isn't to gain your spells, but merely to keep you from getting them, all they have to do is steal the token from you? Seems risky.