Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Stigius 09-23-05, 04:30 PM	First, let me describe the situation. We are the party of 3, consisting of: 1. Human paladin 11, slightly modified (no mount, good Will save, spellcraft as a class skill) - that's me 2. Human wizard 9/Ftr1 (quite strong physically, uses a greatsword to good effect) 3. Gnome illus/bard (don't know his exact stats, but most of his levels are illusionist, and probably he is level 11 or 12 total). My paladin and the human wizard have really good attributes, but our gear is quite standard (in my case even substandard - magic weapon, armor, some potions). The gnome has more magical trinkets, but most of them can be used rather to create decoys and misdirect foes than to bring destruction. He also obwiously has a really large number of spells in his book, but seems rather weak and fragile in direct confrontation. Currently we have to apprehend a rather powerful wizard. We must get him alive, though not necessarily in very good shape :evillaugh and bring to our base. It must be done within a rather short time (a week or two, not more), otherwise a man cursed by him is going to die, and be damned forever... Judging from the news gathered by our inteligence, the wizard in question is more powerful than ours, but not immensely so. About level 14 or 15, we think. Probably pure (non-multiclassed) wizard, specialized either in Enchantment, or in Necromancy. In any case he has a wide array of spells from these both schools. Now, he is supported by his whole family, including the Duke of considerable power, a few wizards more, and a whole army... But we figured we can assault him in his remote sanctuary, without confronting all the forces of the family stronghold. We do not know how deeply corrupt the whole family is, but surely far from innocent, so in the long run the confrontation might be unavoidable anyway. But we cannot assault the Duke's stronghold unprovoked and without certain proofs (which we hope to obtain at the wizard's sancturary, so it's another reason to strike right there). Judging from his "style of action", he is going to use undead and constructs rather than people. we can expect traps too... dungeon standard. These we know, as well as the merits to have Dimensional anchor ready. But what more should we prepare for? The guy is a long term villain, and we know the DM is not going to be easy on us...I suspect the wizard may be more powerful than he has shown so far - in the terms of levels and resources as well as minions. And of course we have to fight on his homeground. We can obtain the help of a cleric from the temple of Heironeus. He's going to be much lower level than we, probably about 7-8. And... I could probably get a very short term of a very powerful paladin from my order. Level 17 or so. (don't ask why, it's a 'plot thing', too long to explain). Still, out of game I know that if the paladin accompanies us, the DM will find a way to 'neutralize' him by thrownig some extra opponents, so we are again in the starting point) ;) So... any advice? We need not only to defeat him, mind you, but first and foremost get him alive. What should we prepary, what should be wary of? Any advice would be appreciatad! [Edited] This background info appears in one of my later posts, but I copied it here too - not everybody likes to read through the whole thread! Some background: The wizard in question kidnapped a little boy (a distant relative; also from the same family, but from a branch of no real importance) and did some really hideous experinents upon him, including: melting the boy's bones and shaping him in something quasi-amorphous, bonding to a demon. We do not know the exact purpose, but it was meant either to make the boy an obedient tool (some kind of human golem), or to siphon the arcane power out of him (in this campaign world only rare people posses a gift for arcane magic, and this gift can be stolen or transferred between persons). We rescued the boy (completly by chance, at that stage we knew nothing about the whole thing), and later found his father (the mother commited suicide after the son's loss). The father, quite a competent fighter/mage, started to search for the kidnapper, but eventually himself was caught by him. The wizard set him free, but with altered memories and loyalties. The father was about to hand out the boy to him, but we stopped the thing. Now it turns out that he has not only been charmed, but also cursed (Greater curse from BoVD) and is going to die unless "he makes the boy to stand before the wizard'. That's why we need the wizard During our investigations we discovered the wizard has deep connections to a demonic cult we are already at war with. We do not know how deeply the other family members are involved. If they are in, any pleas to the Duke are going to result in the wizard being highly alarmed. As things stand now, we have every reason to suspect the involvement of the Duke and a few other powerful family members. It is possible the wizard tried to fake evidences to split the guilt or seem better protected, but we cannot assume this. Whem we get a hold of him, we can parley and see if the relatives are going to be furious with us, or with the wizard...
MysticalDruid 09-23-05, 04:38 PM	Silence, or grappling are both great anti wizard tactics.
Phrennzy 09-23-05, 04:46 PM	Why? Why do you need him? If you need him alive, is there any chance to parley with him and ask for his aid? If not, Feeblemind is a great attack. And wizard's get a -4 on their save. Grappling won't work against a stilled dimension door. Poison is a good idea. There are a few kinds that cause unconciousness. Baleful Polymorph is a good one too. Use Fort save, and will prevent him from being able to cast. But I'd still want to know why. Maybe you can roleplay it out and get his cooperation instead of the enmity of his entire family, which includes the powerful noble.
Ogmug 09-23-05, 04:49 PM	If you wizard can get a hold of the nightmare spell, you can try this. 1. Draw the wizard out, getting him to cast at least 2 spells, and then retreat 2. that night, have the wizard cast nightmare. If successful will have the following effects: Prevents restful night of sleep, 1d10 damage, and prevents regaining of spells for 24 hours. Do that nightly for 3-5 days. By then the wizard will be mostly out of spells unless he can catch on (which might be likely, but if he doesn't...) The spell will be better if : a) you know him and are familiar (assume you do since he is a recurring bad guy?), and b) you can get a possession of his, even better a piece of hair. On the final day, greater invis the fighter/wiz (most str yes?) and have the paladin and bard/sorc engage him (assuming you get past the traps and such). as he (BBEG) is about to cast, grapple him with your invis wiz (assuming greater str will win out?) and have the other two close, perhaps doing subdual damage if possible (get some saps) and pummel him sensless. After that, get some thumblocks and toelocks (ala warlock movie), and a ball gag for his mouth. Strip him of any item that coudl be a focus, (hell strip him and put clothes on him YOU brought with you)
friedmad 09-23-05, 04:54 PM	you will definitely need to disable any 'alarms' around his stronghold so he isnt alerted to your presence. also, you'll need to ward the area against teleportation...any self-respecting wizard above 9th level has at least one teleport they can do every day...
Lord Stigius 09-23-05, 05:15 PM	Ogmug, Nightmare is out of question. See, it's an evil spell (or did they change in 3,5? Anyway, we're still in something like 3,25 ;) ) Phrenzy, Some background: The wizard in question kidnapped a little boy (a distant relative; also from the same family, but from a branch of no real importance) and did some really hideous experinents upon him, including: melting the boy's bones and shaping him in something quasi-amorphous, bonding to a demon. We do not know the exact purpose, but it was meant either to make the boy an obedient tool (some kind of human golem), or to siphon the arcane power out of him (in this campaign world only rare people posses a gift for arcane magic, and this gift can be stolen or transferred between persons). We rescued the boy (completly by chance, at that stage we knew nothing about the whole thing), and later found his father (the mother commited suicide after the son's loss). The father, quite a competent fighter/mage, started to search for the kidnapper, but eventually himself was caught by him. The wizard set him free, but with altered memories and loyalties. The father was about to hand out the boy to him, but we stopped the thing. Now it turns out that he has not only been charmed, but also cursed (Greater curse from BoVD) and is going to die unless "he makes the boy to stand before the wizard'. That's why we need the wizard :D During our investigations we discovered the wizard has deep connections to a demonic cult we are already at war with. We do not know how deeply the other family members are involved. If they are in, any pleas to the Duke are going to result in the wizard being highly alarmed. As things stand now, we have every reason to suspect the involvement of the Duke and a few other powerful family members. It is possible the wizard tried to fake evidences to split the guilt or seem better protected, but we cannot assume this. Whem we get a hold of him, we can parley and see if the relatives are going to be furious with us, or with the wizard...
Ogmug 09-23-05, 05:17 PM	evil spells don't matter to a wizard (unless it is a roleplay decision), only for clerics and paladins. One spell does not turn a person evil :P Repeated use of this tactic might however unless you balance it out. Since it isn't the paladin but the wizard casting the spell, it would not affect your abilities (in most campaigns. i have seen DMS dictate that paladin cannot allow any evil to be done, and if it is done without his knowledge, and he finds out, he must rectify it)
Lord Stigius 09-23-05, 05:25 PM	evil spells don't matter to a wizard (unless it is a roleplay decision), Well, it's my fault I forgot to say the wiz/ftr is Good. Really good, proven during 10 levels of game. So a roleplaying decision indeed. Plus, she is the wife of my 14 Int, 16 Wis, maxed out Spellcraft paladin.... [edited] And I strongly believe Nightmare can be a 'personal taboo' for her. It happens so that spell has been abundantly used by her first and foremost personal enemy.
Ogmug 09-23-05, 05:31 PM	Well, it's my fault I forgot to say the wiz/ftr is Good. Really good, proven during 10 levels of game. So a roleplaying decision indeed. Plus, she is the wife of my 14 Int, 16 Wis, maxed out Spellcraft paladin.... [edited] And I strongly believe Nightmare can be a 'personal taboo' for her. It happens so that spell has been abundantly used by her first and foremost personal enemy. That explains it (i hate to think it was simply because it had the evil descriptor in it.. the descriptor is there to show how the spell interacts with other spells, and alignments. some take it to mean it messes with your alignment others don't.)
Leewei 09-23-05, 05:52 PM	1) Blow about 100gp and get a Thunderstick, a Smokestick, and a Tanglefoot Bag. 2) Sneak up on the old pointy-hatted menace. Hit him with all three at once as well as a small item with silence cast on it. 3) Let him blow spell after spell while deafened in a silenced area without knowing why he fails. 4) Hit him with enough subdual damage to knock him out. Bind him in rope. 5) Throw him in a sack. Every four hours on the nose, kick him in the ribs for more subdual damage and interrupt his rest.
Thorak 09-23-05, 06:45 PM	And, when you've done any of the above and have defeated him, make sure you cut out his tongue and sever/break his fingers/hands. You're high enough level that you can probably afford to have someone cast Regenerate on him when you want to restore his abilities, and there's no chance of him saving against physical damage, like there is with Feeblemind. Yes, it's harsh. But in a world where new fingers and tongue are 1-2 minutes and a single spellcast away, cutting bits off shouldn't be seen as too horrible, if you intend to restore them.
yellowdingo 09-24-05, 06:56 AM	The wizard is more susceptable to poisons if they only become a poison when mixed in his stomach. It wont detect as a poison until it mixes which is too late. Have the serving wench slip silverleaf in the herb mix for his pasta and lavender berry juice in his wine. Only his knowledge of the effect of combining both might alert him to it. Hmmm...Is that lavenderberry in my wine? Estran the mighty succumbed to the poisonous mix and collapsed back into his chair.
Callista 09-24-05, 10:30 AM	Uhm, guys, they're Good... they wouldn't want to chop fingers and tongue off the wizard if it could be helped--and it can; just fill a couple of gauntlets with mud, stick the wizard's hands in them, and mud-to-stone the mud. As for the tongue, a good gag can stop him from speaking clearly, and that's all you need there. Stick him in a bag of holding (keep it slightly opened for air), put another Silenced rock in there with him, and you're free from anything he can do that isn't both stilled and silenced. If you can get drow poison, you're set: Unconsciousness and no damage! Just stick him with a blowdart or something every few hours. I really wish there were more poisons out there that just caused unconsciousness, because there really ought to be more alternatives to the old "stick him in a sack and kick him every few hours" strategy. BTW, would your paladin think using drow poison was dishonorable? There could be that problem; but using it to keep the prisoner unconscious is a different thing from using it during battle. Ask your DM. Basically anything that keeps the wizard unconscious will be good. Oh, how creative is your Illusionist? There might be things there that could come in handy, depending.
^Graff_EpsilonIX 09-24-05, 11:14 AM	'Port in, grab the wizard and port out. Or there's always etherealness.
yellowdingo 09-24-05, 11:43 AM	Actually Callista, This is one of my pet peeves. Alignments, Poisons, Paladins, and Murder. If you are good you respect the sanctity of life enough to bring the foe down with non lethal force. This very much falls into the original concept of chivalry and tournament when Knights would ransom the loser alive rather than bury his corpse on the battlefield. If you kill for any reason you are evil. Therefore Good will always seek to incapacitate rather than kill. If you are Lawful Good as the paladin, you never kill unless the foe meets certain requirements. One is an evil force unstopable otherwise and will never stop. Is incurable, unredeemable, and worse. The Paladin has no place on the Battlefield unless a Manifestation of Evil is going to be present in Combat. Not just ordinary troops under the guidance of evil leaders but something worse. A paladin can use a poison as long as it does not take life. Even in battle, the knowledge of poison is intergral to the Paladin's training and will be open to use by the paldin of certain cultures. While the western Paladin may be held back by the concept of Chivalry and honor, A stoneage Paladin will know that the struggle is all to real and the survival of all life (his civilization and culture as well) is under attack. Win at all costs, poison blowdarts and all. At some point I will put up a short story I wrote about a Paladin's role in primitive stone age society. It defines the Cleric of the tribe as someone who sees beyond what is allowable to ordinary tribesmen, into the world of the outcast, the world of Spirits. He is not however allowed to enter it fully. He can only interact with it. The Paladin on the otherhand is tasked with going beyond what is acceptable for even the Cleric or Shaman. He will do real battle with that that approaches the boundary between the spirit world and the world of the living. He will fight "like hell" to destroy it if it crosses the boundary. If it crosses that boundary He knows the tribe is under attack. A paladin therefor will not battle things that exist in the world of the living with the abilities that are to be used against the Spirit world. In truth The paladin is a bit of an outcast and once tainted by real interaction with that which is unacceptable to the tribe, becomes a total outcast. In some cultures just being a burden made you an outcast. In the case of your band of misfits: It is however the Paladins Lawful Good responsibility to ask the wizard to comply with the saving of anothers life first but only if the wizard was not resonsible for it in the first place. If the Wizard was the cause, then Kill him, even with poison, take his body back to where ever, raise him from dead, exact a cure from him for his victims, stick him in prison.
Lord Stigius 09-25-05, 02:59 AM	Poison will be OK under these circumstances. Other 'underhanded' methods too. The DM does not expect me to blow the horn under wizard's gates and challenge him to fair duel ;) . My paladin sees using disabling poison as not much different than sneaking into the sanctuary and suprising the wizard using invisibility . Both are strategy, not treachery. While the setting is quasi-medieval, the general attitude of my paladin can be best described as 'modern judeo-christian morality' rather than medieval one. Rather than lead a righteous crusade against the worshippers of Hextor and slaughter whole 'evil' towns in the name of Heironeus, he would 'surgically' remove the evil rulers and Hextorian priests and try to establish a new rule. The same here. Poisoning the badguy and carrying him away in a sack :D is much better than hacking through the ranks of guards and also endangering the pally's companions.
yellowdingo 10-03-05, 02:44 AM	While the setting is quasi-medieval, the general attitude of my paladin can be best described as 'modern judeo-christian morality' rather than medieval one. Rather than lead a righteous crusade against the worshippers of Hextor and slaughter whole 'evil' towns in the name of Heironeus, he would 'surgically' remove the evil rulers and Hextorian priests and try to establish a new rule. A little historical fact: Catholic Agents Poisoned the Wells and Grain of Jamestown colony on behalf of the Spanish to break the foothold of an non Catholic england on American Soil. For the next five hundred years, it was thought that the Plague had forced the first abandonment of Jamestown Colony. They used a fungus that grows on rye in moist swampy conditions. Trust me: Your Paladin's church is open to all sorts of Shade of Grey stuff, even if the Paladin is not.
Nathaniel SilverBlade 10-03-05, 04:01 AM	Your opponent is a high level wizard, so he has probably a contengency to escape you (and probably some others defenses ready) So you will need to dispell his prepared defenses And in case of fight, have some spellcasters ready to counterspell To neutralize him, Feeblemind is a good option. Otherwise go for paralysis poison, subdual damage, grappling, tanglefoot bags,... And if you capture him, try to find a way to wipe spells from his memory On the other hand, if your goal is just to have the father and the boy in front of the wizard, you can plan a teleport raid : just go in front of the wizard, then teleport quickly away. This will be probably easier than kidnapping him
Light of Day 10-03-05, 02:15 PM	Try to get hold of a scroll of antimagic field, then have the wizard/fighter cast it and grapple him (unfortunately, antimagic field is a 10-foot radius emination centred on the caster, so immobilising him somehow is required to keep him in the area of effect). Not totally foolproof, as you need to get him in the area of effect and keep him there, but if it works it'll take out all his magical defences AND prevent him casting spells, leaving you to pound the stuffing out of him at your leisure (subdual damage, of course). His minions could be a problem, though. Constructs and undead, you say? Animated objects would fall prey to the antimagic field, but a golem or two could spell trouble. Adamantine weaponary would make mincemeat out of a golem, but you may have difficulty getting hold of any unless you're absolutely loaded. Undead shouldn't be too much of a problem, though, especially if you can bring the cleric along. Also, best to plan defences against the wizards spells in case you can't use the antimagic field plan for some reason. The best defence against enchantment spells is mind blank, but at 8th level that's a bit beyond you. Best to cast protection from evil on everyone before going in in case he tries to dominate any of you, though. Necromancy is a lot easier to defend against, though. One casting of death ward and you're immune to near enough any necromancy spell he can throw at you. It's a bit beyond your paladin right now, but the hired help cleric ought to be able to cast it. You may be able to pick it up in scroll or even wand form as well.
spoogemonkey 10-07-05, 04:55 PM	Simply look at the wizard through the wrong end of a spyglass..... pick him up with a pair of tweezers.... and pop him into a wine bottle! voila!
prozacman 10-09-05, 07:23 AM	i suggest having the bard sneak in under an invisibility spell (if you have it) and steal the wizards spells book. no book = no spells or you could pay a rogue to do it.