Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fighter_mcwarrior 05-02-07, 03:09 AM	I have two issues at hand which I need to resolve. My first one is how to put an end to the confidence of one annoying little munchkin. His conjecture is that at higher levels, fighters just simply get in the way of the mages and that any high level mage can defeat any fighter hands-down. I need someone to tell me of a nice combo of non-magic user classes which can crush any mage and can save against 7th level spells. Note that this combo must be core only (this includes stuff from MM1). My second issue has to do with Tome of Battle. Maybe I'm just one of those conservative players who doesn't like all this new stuff, but I have a personal problem with that book and the whole "it balances fighters with the casters" spiel. What little balance is left in D&D is now getting thrown out the window with titles like this (if only I had been around for 1.0). Anyway, to get to the point, I'd like to hear some suggestions on how to defeat these new "blade mages" with normal fighters because one of my friends is claiming that ToB makes FTR a "nice two-level dip class," and I really want to find a way to put an end to that idea. All suggestions are much appreciated.
tsuyoshikentsu 05-02-07, 03:13 AM	Hi, I'm from the CharOp board. Nice to meet you. Anyway: your friends are right. In Core, straight Fighter is good for exactly one thing: tripping. And CoD passes them long before that.
spectralphoenix 05-02-07, 03:19 AM	I very much doubt there is a Core fighter build that can "crush any mage." Certainly mindless blaster types and such could be dealt with, but against the truly well-prepared wizard you can't do a lot at high levels. Exactly what level are you talking about, anyway?
allenchan 05-02-07, 03:23 AM	Your friend isn't a munchkin, just accepting of the logical, intelligent conclusions. And I fail to see how trying to balance something makes it inherently unbalanced. :confused: And, to be fair, fighters have NEVER been good for anything more then a four level dip.
tsuyoshikentsu 05-02-07, 03:23 AM	It doesn't matter past, oh, 7th, maybe 9th. Especially not at 20, when the Druid summons an Elder Earth Elemental, sends out his Dire Tiger to grapple you, and then shapecahnges into, I dunno, the Tarrasque. I'd love to see a Fighter fight a Crusader. It'd be funny.
Zelck 05-02-07, 03:26 AM	Well, fighter was already a 2-6 level dip class. And to be honest, he's right for the most part, although he's being very tactless in expressing it. Even in core (especially in core?), a well-played high level spellcaster (this might even include the adept class...) will beat a well-played high level fighter, every time. The solution? Pretend 'Warblade' is 'Fighter', 'Crusader' is 'Paladin', and Swordsage is 'Monk', with the exception of dipping. Even then, spellcasters might still come out ahead, but the gap isn't nearly as large, and the fighting classes are much more interesting to play than before.
ReaderOfPosts 05-02-07, 09:08 AM	Core only there isn't much you can do above 10th level or so. There are a few decent martial mage-slaying builds out of core, but they still can't necessarily kill a wizard out of core (who has acesss to contingent spells and the like. Out of core your best bet is a rogue. With a decent set of wands and the element of surprise you would stand a decent chance of killing a core wizard. (And a staff of dispel magic: You can emulate a high caster level with your UMD check, so you can debuff him). If you can snipe him, you'd stand a decent chance.
Cold Napalm 05-02-07, 09:33 AM	In core against a wizard...your hosed. I'm sorry...but your friend is right if a bit rude. As for ToB...well you realize that the fighter ALREADY is a 2-4 level dip class right in core right? ToB changes none of that. The only thing he's wrong about is fighter is still a 4 level dip for crusaders and sword sages. It's only a 2 level dip for warblades. If you want a fighter to compete with ToB your once again gonna have to step out of core. So you want a fighter that can compete...well your just gonna have to use compete books and the PHB2 and a FR regional feat (jortenbrun makes fighters all better).
starfire311 05-02-07, 09:43 AM	I will just echo everyone elses thoghts, while your find is being quite tactless, and maybe a bit arrogant, he is correct. In core casters dominate martial after about level 10, prior to that it can go either way. ToB, went a long way to fixing this, it made it fun and viable to play a martial character, now only if Stormwind would finish his falling star style we would be set. PHBII did go a long way to making fighter a solid 4 level dip.
jnrhayz 05-02-07, 02:50 PM	I will preface what I am about to say with the fact I have been playing a Rogue/Sorcerer for the past two years in a campaign and have no knowledge of what is contained within ToB or PHBII. (I have read about them here on the boards and sometime within the next two years will probably buy them once I actually use any of my free time to find a good deal in the local game shop or on ebay). With all of that out of the way, from the beginning of 3rd edition until 2005 the only characters I played were fighters, barbarians, and paladins. What I learned, is that a fighter can kill a mage, but never* in a one on one with prep time gladiator royale kind of thing. *never meaning both characters are played in a logical and intelligent way of course. A fighter's greatest strength is his equipment, so based on the opponent you are facing, you can create a fighter that can kill a mage. Is a mage slayer going to be a 20th level fighter build? No. Build a mage, and it is possible to build a fighter that *could* win. Terrain, equipment, feats, etc. all can be used in actual combat and to ignore that is silly. However, just looking at an average fighter build and an average mage build, after 10th level the mage can do more damage and would win any normal combat 4 out of 5 times. After 12th level, it is more like 5 out of 5. I have always believed that the fighter is the easiest class to learn to play, but it is the hardest to master. It is too easy to become focused on one thing as a fighter and when you can't do that then you stink, but on the other hand, if you try to do everything, you still stink. They fixed this for the sorcerer in being able to change spell selection, but as a fighter, you can't exchange feats. Also, I have read that PHBII and ToB are better at this, but after 12th level (IMO) you basically have no feat selection to improve anything. I think that is the greatest weakness of the fighter class, poor high level feats (that and DMs who won't let you buy magic gear and/or keep you below gold levels in the DMG). *****Edit: Silly me, forgot to mention a good build for a mage slayer**** I would go fighter/rogue, hit and run tactics, archer. It is the best your going to get using only classes that can't cast spells. Maybe a level of Barbarian for the increased speed.
Kouk 05-02-07, 03:12 PM	To kill a wizard one-on-one assuming you are both fully prepared, would most likely require the fighter to have incredible gear and the wizard to underestimate him. Maybe a Hat of Disguise to get up near him, and then a few good (maybe critical) hits with a full attack could do it but it would be nearly impossible if you are at range.
Prator_the_Legendary 05-02-07, 03:21 PM	1. Oh, that's easy. Coup de grace him in his sleep. 2. It's possible to get a fighter to win against a Nine Swordsman, but you'd have to specially customize your equipment beforehand to counter whatever manuevers you think he'll be using. Something that makes you immune to fire, for instance, will help with all those hellish Desert Wind manuevers that really endanger you. ...Oh, who am I kidding? I love fighters, but even I have to admit that they're really not that impressive...
Tempest Stormwind 05-02-07, 03:40 PM	I'm also from the CO board, and I'm with Tsuyoshikentsu here: Your friends are right. It's not them being munchkins. It's them not sucking at math. Moving on to the Nine Swords issue. I've crunched the numbers several times. At lower levels (when fighter-types are competitive), the core fighter-types, especially the barbarian, are more deadly than the warblade. At higher levels, casters *still* beat the ToB classes, except that the ToB warriors have options besides "I charge" followed by "I full attack every round". Tleilaxu Ghola (one of the biggest names on the CO board, and probably THE biggest in ToB optimization techniques) put it best: So yeah, just to be clear. This is like the warlock part 2, except more material, so it'll take a little longer to choke down. When you get down to it though, here's what ToB ACTUALLY changes: 1. Makes DEX SAD builds soo much easier. 2. Facilitates the creation of AoOs 3. Offers more potent single attack options, such that warrior builds are no longer restrained to focusing on gaining full attacks. This in turn equates to higher mobility. 4. Offers the ability for warrior types to deal more than pure damage, additional effects include: stunning, dazing, instant death, immobilization, ability damage. 5. Grants warrior types the ability to make use of immediate and swift actions on a regular basis. Bottom line: it gives warriors more options. As is to be expected from a supplement for... you guessed it... warriors.That "warlock" argument he mentions? It was the knee-jerk OMFG AT WILL MAGIC BROKEN! cries that people shot out when the warlock hit play. They claimed it made the sorcerer obsolete. It didn't -- it wasn't even in the same NICHE as the sorcerer, and it happened to be fun, balanced, and interesting to play. The ToB classes are a lot like this -- at will flashy abilities that make them look like they make others obsolete, when really, they don't. At least, none that weren't already obsolete by the PHB. The fighter is still a 2-4 level dip (MAYBE as high as 6 now if you're playing with Dungeonscape's Dungeon Crasher variant, but even THAT kicks in at level 2, so the 2-level dip reason is still around). It always has been; this isn't anything new. The barbarian is still a king of melee damage and has the most hit points. The paladin still can go nova and be an incredible warrior, but they still suffer from their traditional problems (stamina, frontloading, poor power curve, RP issues up the wazoo -- all of which are solved in the crusader, by the way). Rangers are *still* the best choice for a skilled warrior with a touch of stealth and magic. Pretty much all that *actually* changes mechanically by introducing the ToB is covered above. (SAD = single attribute dependency; he means an all-Dex character.) On the flipside, looking at what we flat-out GAIN, warriors now have to pay attention far more than usual when it isn't their turn (due to counters), they have to judge placement and movement far more (since they can actually dish out damage without focusing on full attacks to do it), they can strategically work with their party ("I'll Douse the Flames so that my allies can slip by this big nasty, and stay behind to soak up any hits he DOES want to make next round by using Defensive Rebuke first")... generally, they go from die-chugging machines to tacticians. Your players have to start using their brains again, and might have fun playing a warrior for the first time in years. I wouldn't call that a downside.
batmanjr 05-02-07, 03:56 PM	Have the fighter take on the mage in an anti-magic zone, that ought to shut him up a bit. As far as martial classes fighting each other. It comes down to tactics, equipment, and of course the dice. I will not say that a fighter has no chance or that the ToB classes are all that. Personally I don't like the flavor ToB introduces. But will freely admit they have some nice abilities. Since the ToB classes tend not to focus on ranged combat very much you could always get a fighter who specializes on ranged and then go to town firing at them from afar.
spectralphoenix 05-02-07, 04:05 PM	The biggest problem is that a wizard has a number of spells that make him impossible to harm without magic - consider a mage who's cast Overland Flight and Wind Wall. Unless the fighter can fly, he's kind of stuck. Same with Forcecage, except I don't think there is a core way for a fighter to escape one. And what does he do against a wizard with Contingency?Even if he starts winning, he can't kill the wizard who just teleports away after being reduced to a fraction of his hit points.
fighter_mcwarrior 05-02-07, 07:03 PM	I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding there. I didn't mean "go straight fighter up to level 20." Very few classes are that good. Anyway, what I meant is non-casters, including FTR/ROG/BRB combos. Oh, and since core really doesn't give a lot of options, let's expand it to include CW and CA. As for dealing with contingency spells, that's what rods, staffs, and wonderous items are for, especially ones that can dispel or produce antimagic fields. As for those who call FTR a "dip class," I'd like you to meet Thrain the Gold Dwarf FTR/dwarven defender. At level 14, he was more than a match for anyone out of ToB. I would have given him levels in BRB as well in retrospect, but he's a great example of a well optimized fighter.
Romtos 05-02-07, 07:16 PM	As for those who call FTR a "dip class," I'd like you to meet Thrain the Gold Dwarf FTR/dwarven defender. At level 14, he was more than a match for anyone out of ToB. I would have given him levels in BRB as well in retrospect, but he's a great example of a well optimized fighter. It can generate some damage, but you miss all the options from ToB.
DaidojiTaidoru 05-02-07, 07:36 PM	It can generate some damage, but you miss all the options from ToB. Like moving. Anywhere. I suppose you don't have to use your class features....
Crimson_Concerto 05-02-07, 08:03 PM	My first one is how to put an end to the confidence of one annoying little munchkin.Yeah, I have one of those myself, and I honestly can't stand him most of the time. His conjecture is that at higher levels, fighters just simply get in the way of the mages and that any high level mage can defeat any fighter hands-down.Actually, he's right. At mid to high levels, fighters stand very little chance unless the caster is played rather ineptly. If the caster in question is a pure blaster, then the caster is not doing its job well and deserves to die at the hands of said Fighter. I need someone to tell me of a nice combo of non-magic user classes which can crush any mage and can save against 7th level spells. Note that this combo must be core only (this includes stuff from MM1).Only way to really garuntee is to make sure the caster starts off with no buffs, win initiative, and them to kill him in the first round of combat. After that, there is no garuntee of victory, and honestly, by those levels, most casters have at least a few 24-hour buffs up. My second issue has to do with Tome of Battle. Maybe I'm just one of those conservative players who doesn't like all this new stuff, but I have a personal problem with that book and the whole "it balances fighters with the casters" spiel.Actually, that spiel is just that. The book doesn't balance melee characters with spellcasters. Spellcasters are still far superior, and in actuality, the ToB classes have a minimal advantage against core melee, and many actual mechanical and mathematical calculations show any advantage that may exist to be minimal at best. ToB doesn't make the Fighter useless, either. Fighters have been useless long before ToB came out, and in actuality, ToB has only served to make them better, as now they can use their feats to pick up maneuvers. Anything the fighter did well before (multiple feat tree intensive builds or archer builds) still remains intact. What little balance is left in D&D is now getting thrown out the window with titles like this (if only I had been around for 1.0).TB has done nothing to upset the balance of D&D, or rather its lack of balance. All ToB has done is create melee characters that are just as versatile and fun to play as casters. It gives melee something to do every round other than, "I full attack again." Anyway, to get to the point, I'd like to hear some suggestions on how to defeat these new "blade mages" with normal fighters because one of my friends is claiming that ToB makes FTR a "nice two-level dip class," and I really want to find a way to put an end to that idea.Well, a good archer build on the fighter may do the trick, actually, but the idea that the Fighter is a 2-level dip class has been around for a very long time, long before ToB came on the scene. Fighter just isn't a very good class, really. All suggestions are much appreciated.No problem. :D
Tempest Stormwind 05-02-07, 09:00 PM	I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding there. I didn't mean "go straight fighter up to level 20." Very few classes are that good. Anyway, what I meant is non-casters, including FTR/ROG/BRB combos. Oh, and since core really doesn't give a lot of options, let's expand it to include CW and CA.Yeah, same conclusion. You obviously haven't got a very good idea of what high-level spells are truly capable of if you think that being able to swing a sword can do it. The only chance you'll get is with a stick, while they sleep. And it's not guaranteed even then (due to Contingencies, Alarm spells, constructed guardians, and so on).As for dealing with contingency spells, that's what rods, staffs, and wonderous items are for, especially ones that can dispel or produce antimagic fields.You seem to believe that using a magic item eluds a contingency. It doesn't. And if you're in an AMF, then you're using one of the few cheesiest effects in the game to stand a *chance* against winning. I mean, the caster could easily have "an enemy advances within 15' of me" as his contingent trigger -- teleporting away before an AMF can reach him.As for those who call FTR a "dip class," I'd like you to meet Thrain the Gold Dwarf FTR/dwarven defender. At level 14, he was more than a match for anyone out of ToB. I would have given him levels in BRB as well in retrospect, but he's a great example of a well optimized fighter.Oh, no! The dwarven defender's after us! Quick, everyone! Walk briskly! 1) Dwarven defenders are overrated. An immobile tank isn't a tank, he's a sandbag. Foes can ignore him by using distance attacks or staying out of his reach. If foes are ignoring the tank, the tank is not doing his job. 2) BRB = barbarian = illegal. You have to be lawful to be a defender, barbarians cannot be lawful. 3) I'm actually completely willing to bet that my 10th level wizard (actually Wiz 5 / PrCs, since no one goes over 5 levels in Wizard EVER), Dayvid Thales Dalawann, is more than capable of slaughtering Thrain or turning him to a liability against his teammates, potentially even doing all this from within his melee reach. I can do this with exactly one piece of magical equipment: His headband. I need nothing else. Note that Dayvid's a specialist wizard and is incapable of normally casting evocation spells, such as Contingency. I can confidently say this because I'm aware of what my spells are capable of doing -- and several of them can turn people like Thrain into puppets without even batting an eye. You can swing an axe from over there behind your high AC and hit points. I can bend reality itself until it snaps and you in half regardless of your AC and hit points, and I can do it from all the way over here, multiple times a round, likely before you're able to act. And I'm four levels behind you without any evocation spells. I might even be able to do it without actually casting any real spells for the fight as well, since enough of my effects last until I feel like it anyway. Seriously. Consider what high-level casters can do. Even in older editions, if you're more comfortable thinking about them. The fighter types cannot keep up, not even with the Tome of Battle.
Kresalak 05-02-07, 09:18 PM	Moving on to the Nine Swords issue. I've crunched the numbers several times. At lower levels (when fighter-types are competitive), the core fighter-types, especially the barbarian, are more deadly than the warblade. How is that possible? Fighters get... um... +2 damage? That's like one maneuver, or half a third of a 1st level buff spell, or a one point Power Attack. I mean, I definitely accept that Warblades aren't all that, but outperformed by Fighters? You see, the problem with all the melee types is that they're literally not playing the same game as everyone else. They're stuck using 1st level tactics at a point where the winning strategy is a teleport ambush. It's like going to a T1 tournament with a Ravager Affinity deck; you might be good in Standard, but you auto-lose to everyone in every other setting. Tome of Battle gets Fighters to level 6 tactics, and even level 11 if they know their stuff (like Fly-By Attack), but it still doesn't bring you to 16th level ****. However, no one plays at those levels anyway, so I don't really care. To kill a Wizard, grab a 10th level Rogue with Skill Master (Use Magic Device). Have him use a Runestaff of something or other, and enjoy being a better spellcaster than the real thing.
daggeroflath 05-02-07, 11:02 PM	I could maybe build a character capable of defeating a mage without using magic themselves, but it wouldn't be a flat fighter, it'd have dips all over the place. The character wouldn't be much good for anything else. It would be much easier to build a character to face one mage in particular, but that's just getting rather silly. Honestly I think it'd be far easier for me to build a fighter-killing wizard than it would be to build a wizard-killing fighter. Particularly if I'm restricting to core.
bobothechimp 05-02-07, 11:55 PM	Fighters can fairly easily defeat mages with archery and readied actions.
Zelck 05-03-07, 12:00 AM	Fighters can fairly easily defeat mages with archery and readied actions. One third level spell (Wind Wall) easily beats Fighters with archery and readied actions.
bobothechimp 05-03-07, 12:10 AM	One third level spell (Wind Wall) easily beats Fighters with archery and readied actions. Try casting wind wall against a fighter with an action readied to shoot you in the face if you cast a spell. In the off chance you do manage to cast it, a fighter can easily draw javelins and use those at a 30% miss chance.
Zelck 05-03-07, 12:29 AM	Try casting wind wall against a fighter with an action readied to shoot you in the face if you cast a spell. Easy. I can start off with a swift-action decoy spell, like Feather Fall. Your readied action triggers, then I cast the Wind Wall. Or, I ready an action to cast it during your turn. Your readied actions don't function on your own turn, so the Wind Wall gets through. Alternatively, I could simply have good enough defenses that you'll have a tough time hitting me. And javelins can be defeated in the same way. Even after a Wind Wall. That's assuming your javelins are even a threat.
daggeroflath 05-03-07, 12:34 AM	Try casting wind wall against a fighter with an action readied to shoot you in the face if you cast a spell. It's only a DC 13 + damage dealt concentration check and that's assuming that they hit the mage. By the levels where it's relevant, a mage can often make such a check. Don't get me wrong, it's by far one of the best tactics to use against a mage (especially if there are two of you) but it's not as foolproof as you imagine. Of course it's easy to win when you start off with a crossbow in your enemy's face. (which is the trick to fighting a wizard, don't let them prepare).
bobothechimp 05-03-07, 12:41 AM	One more thing. Cast wind wall, ok. One can simply walk to the side, around, through, or even above it (if the terrain allows) and ready another action to shoot if the spellcaster casts a spell.
Tempest Stormwind 05-03-07, 01:03 AM	One more thing. Cast wind wall, ok. One can simply walk to the side, around, through, or even above it (if the terrain allows) and ready another action to shoot if the spellcaster casts a spell. "Effect: Wall up to 10 ft./level long and 5 ft./level high (S)" CL 5 for minimum-level caster gives us 50' long and 25' high, shapeable (including into a cylinder around the wizard). It only gets bigger at higher levels, but it is still easy to enclose the entire wizard this way except from above, which means you have to fly as well. Good luck with that, sparky. And this assumes that the wizard doesn't move to continue to gain cover from the wind wall and then Dominate you or hit you with a true save-or-die. You seem to think that archers have some inherent spellcaster-slaying ability. They don't. Any good spellcaster after a particular point will have contingencies against this, a simple and popular one being "If I am attacked, cast Mirror Image". Your archer can ready one arrow. There are seven of me. Choose which one it goes against. This is similar to an 85% miss chance, and it comes *on top of* other miss chances (like Displacement or Cloak of Shadow), wizardly avoidance tactics (the fact that he's flying, for instance), and other similar ones. My wizard's sitting at AC 11 and has only been hit TWICE in the entire campaign as a result of good spell use (and competent allies who do their jobs well). This trick *can* work. If there are a lot of you, all in constant communication, and the wizard doesn't just use something more powerful, like Ghostform. Or Invisibility (can't see him cast now!). Or worse -- at really high levels, you realize you jumped one of the wizard's many simulacra, and the real wizard behind you who you MIGHT just be able to own if you get the drop on him... is just the wizard's astral projection. At the lower levels, miss chances work just as well.
fighter_mcwarrior 05-03-07, 01:15 AM	The best way to defeat a windwall isn't shooting into it. The best way is to teleport into it right next to the wizard (ie: boots of teleportation and cape of the mountbank). You use a melee type with mage slayer + standstill and a spiked chain. That way, the wizard can 5-foot back, but still takes the AOO (and, if done right, lots of damage and other nasties). If the caster tries to move out of reach, he gets hit by the standstill and remains firmly rooted in place. Next round, the FTR proceeds to wail away on the caster. As cheesy as folks say AMF is, it's there to be used and, as the old saying goes, if it hurts it works.
AffableDoomwalker 05-03-07, 01:20 AM	I'm of the opinion that the "Tome of New Classes" should have just been a simple "new feats and abilities for fighters!" book. They could have easily offered all of the stunning, dazing, insta-death, single attack options, and they could have done it sans making the fighter even more useless.
fighter_mcwarrior 05-03-07, 01:21 AM	Yeah, same conclusion. You obviously haven't got a very good idea of what high-level spells are truly capable of if you think that being able to swing a sword can do it. What? You think I don't understand what comes with high level casting? I play a Wu Jen in one of my games, and I only need to cite "Arboreal Transformation." Also, I never said swing a sword can produce the same effect. I'd recommend reading my posts before making that kind of statement.
fighter_mcwarrior 05-03-07, 01:32 AM	You seem to think that archers have some inherent spellcaster-slaying ability. They don't. Any good spellcaster after a particular point will have contingencies against this, a simple and popular one being "If I am attacked, cast Mirror Image". Your archer can ready one arrow. There are seven of me. Choose which one it goes against. This is similar to an 85% miss chance, and it comes *on top of* other miss chances (like Displacement or Cloak of Shadow), wizardly avoidance tactics (the fact that he's flying, for instance), and other similar ones. My wizard's sitting at AC 11 and has only been hit TWICE in the entire campaign as a result of good spell use (and competent allies who do their jobs well). Okay, try saving against an arrow coated with poison. Sure, it has to hit first, but if it does, the caster should hope to have a good fort save. Better yet, try making multiple saves against multiple poisoned arrows.
Derren S. 05-03-07, 01:48 AM	Against a well played caster it is impossible to thet multiple arrow hits. On hit maybe, but after the contagencies kick in a prepared higher level wizards as as good as unhitable when facing only one enemy.
spectralphoenix 05-03-07, 02:10 AM	The best way to defeat a windwall isn't shooting into it. The best way is to teleport into it right next to the wizard (ie: boots of teleportation and cape of the mountbank). You use a melee type with mage slayer + standstill and a spiked chain. That way, the wizard can 5-foot back, but still takes the AOO (and, if done right, lots of damage and other nasties). If the caster tries to move out of reach, he gets hit by the standstill and remains firmly rooted in place. Next round, the FTR proceeds to wail away on the caster. As cheesy as folks say AMF is, it's there to be used and, as the old saying goes, if it hurts it works. Unless the wizard is packing a Sudden Quicken or Metamagic rod and tosses a Dimension Door, or else he has a Contingency to activate a defensive spell if a someone gets within 5 ft, or else he cast Greater Invisibility and you don't know where he is, or else he has a Cloak of Etherealness, or else he's flying, and so on and so on and so on... And the AMF trick isn't as easy as it sounds - how is a fighter going to get an AMF in the first place? UMD for a scroll would be DC 31. There's no way he can make that consistently with a cross-class skill pre-epic, and he'd still have to close with the wizard. One fly spell and you're through.
Saytr 05-03-07, 02:10 AM	I have never actually seen the Fighter vs Wizard arguement made very well. While I do believe the Wizard is a stronger class. I'm going to try and play the Fighter for this exercise even though it's an uphill battle. We'll assume that I am Bob the fighter-type and I am trying to kill Merlin the magician. We'll also assume that Merlin is trying to kill me. We'll do this methodically. Bobs first tactic is to run over, grapple Merlin, and squeeze the life out of him. We'll assume he has Imp Grapple or maybe even a monk level. At early levels this tactic gives Bob the advantage. At what level does this stop working? 3rd? 5th? 7th? What is the tactic Merlin uses to negate this? You gentlemen answer and then I try to counter the tactic. Later on Merlin will attack and Bob will try and counter, but we'll start here now. Please don't jump ahead. Methodical is the pace here. Bob will be using magical equipment at the wealth by level guidelines. He will also be using Core+ Complete+ Magic Item Compendium (if I can borrow it from my friend). Plus .. maybe something obscure if I get stuck :D Bob will NOT be using any item that creates an Antimagic field for the fact that it is an inherently STUPID concept. Please. Go ahead.. I'm actually curious to see what happens. I'm thinking the first big obstacle will be the fly spell. Am I right? ~
Prince_of_Murder_Kinghall 05-03-07, 02:28 AM	Get a fire proof parachute and stand in front the mage with a bow and pray to the gods that he uses fire like spell as you are blasted the heat should be enough to send you flying back, launch arrows through the fire where he would not be able to see them coming.
Strudel_Lumpycakes 05-03-07, 02:29 AM	I don't have much of a head for optimization, but I'll throw in my two coppers. Firstly, the fighter can only grapple the wizard if he can reach him. May seem petty, but the fighter can't always start combat 30ft away from his opponents. Secondly, yes, that's a good tactic. Fighters usually own mages at low level, just like mages usually own fighters at high levels. If you try that with a high level wizard, have fun wrestling with his iron golem buddy first (not to mention the wizard has a good chance of being airborn).
spectralphoenix 05-03-07, 02:36 AM	I have never actually seen the Fighter vs Wizard arguement made very well. While I do believe the Wizard is a stronger class. I'm going to try and play the Fighter for this exercise even though it's an uphill battle. We'll assume that I am Bob the fighter-type and I am trying to kill Merlin the magician. We'll also assume that Merlin is trying to kill me. We'll do this methodically. Bobs first tactic is to run over, grapple Merlin, and squeeze the life out of him. We'll assume he has Imp Grapple or maybe even a monk level. At early levels this tactic gives Bob the advantage. At what level does this stop working? 3rd? 5th? 7th? What is the tactic Merlin uses to negate this? You gentlemen answer and then I try to counter the tactic. Later on Merlin will attack and Bob will try and counter, but we'll start here now. Please don't jump ahead. Methodical is the pace here. Bob will be using magical equipment at the wealth by level guidelines. He will also be using Core+ Complete+ Magic Item Compendium (if I can borrow it from my friend). Plus .. maybe something obscure if I get stuck :D Bob will NOT be using any item that creates an Antimagic field for the fact that it is an inherently STUPID concept. Please. Go ahead.. I'm actually curious to see what happens. ~ If you win initiative, it might work unless the wizard has buffed beforehand (your chances are pretty low if he has a Mirror Image going, and zero if he's flying or invisible.) If you lose initiative, he'll just Invisibility or Fly, then take a move action and you won't be able to do much against him. Even if you win intiative, however, grappling is difficult with a single attack per round. The wizard will probably roll lucky and escape before you can kill him.
Shade_Damara 05-03-07, 02:39 AM	Everyone is missing something here. This isn't a wargame. Mostly, this situation isn't going to come up, because the fighter will have a party if its an NPC caster. Also, a well played fighter doesn't play by the rules, if the Caster can have friends (constructed or otherwise) so can the fighter. In the end...who the hell cares anyway? Some people (myself included) actually rather like fighters. I have played nearly ever major class (core) and my fondest memories have nothing to do with casting spells.
Strudel_Lumpycakes 05-03-07, 03:04 AM	Also, a well played fighter doesn't play by the rules, if the Caster can have friends (constructed or otherwise) so can the fighter. In the end...who the hell cares anyway? What about the friends that the caster summons? Like an earth elemental or iron golem? Anyway, I personally don't care too much about whether the fighter is underpowered. I like to debate and am also a sucker for cage matches (Spiderman vs Batman "Two men enter, one man leaves" and all that jazz). The one issue I /do/ have with the fighter is just the lack of options. Most of your turn is spent full attacking. Over. And. Over. Or tripping like a manic, which is honestly a bit silly conceptually.
tsuyoshikentsu 05-03-07, 03:41 AM	Look, here's what happens. Round 1: Wizard disjunctions your magic gear. You shoot an arrow or something. Round 2: Wizard gates in a balor or an archon or something. If you're still not dead, trap the soul works pretty well until I can get an inprisonment on your body.
Shade_Damara 05-03-07, 04:42 AM	And all you can do with a caster is cast a spell...over...and over.... If you think about it enough everything is repetative, it just matters which one you have more fun with. If you're level 17 as a fighter and don't have a prestige class, something is probably wrong anyway. My Fighter had 10 levels in Ghost Walker, now that was fun.
Zelck 05-03-07, 06:14 AM	And all you can do with a caster is cast a spell...over...and over.... If you think about it enough everything is repetative, it just matters which one you have more fun with. If you're level 17 as a fighter and don't have a prestige class, something is probably wrong anyway. My Fighter had 10 levels in Ghost Walker, now that was fun. No, casters can cast many different spells. Sometimes they can do that when it's not even their turn! They also have spiffy movement options, and out of combat usefulness. On the other hand, fighters can: 1) Move towards enemy 2) Charge 3) Attack 4) Full attack 5) Attack of opportunity 6) Choose one or maybe two of the following: --a) Trip --b) Disarm --c) Grapple Compare with a Sorcerer, the most limited of casters, who at level 20 has 34 unique spells. Even at level 10, they get 15 unique spells. That's a lot more options than what the fighter gets.
bobothechimp 05-03-07, 08:31 AM	One more point. What wizard will have wind walls or other spells specifically to be used against archers prepared for every day? and What fighter won't have a bow every day?
daggeroflath 05-03-07, 08:46 AM	What wizard will have wind walls or other spells specifically to be used against archers prepared for every day? Smart ones. Seriously it's a good pick for a spell... wizards and arrows don't agree, so wind wall (as soon as you have the slots for it) is totally worth taking. What fighter won't have a bow every day? Dumb Ones. Every fighter should carry a bow, they don't have to be good at it, but if they're proficient (which fighters are) then they have so many more options than "I've got my sword".
spectralphoenix 05-03-07, 09:16 AM	One more point. What wizard will have wind walls or other spells specifically to be used against archers prepared for every day? and What fighter won't have a bow every day? What wizard won't scribe a scroll of Wind Wall and hang on to it until he needs it?
Tytalus 05-03-07, 09:41 AM	Oh, no! The dwarven defender's after us! Quick, everyone! Walk briskly! :rofl: (actually Wiz 5 / PrCs, since no one goes over 5 levels in Wizard EVER) No, that's not true. The 6th level gets you +1 BAB, +1 to all saves, and spellcasting. Not that it's a must, but it's a reasonable choice.
kelvinaw273 05-03-07, 10:20 AM	The argument, as I see it, is a redundant one, and here's why: 1) Set piece fights in arenas are just that, and as such rare. Battles rely as much on terrain and circumstance as classes and spells/abilities. It's like the arguments about "XYZ Class is Useless" - all rely on a strict interpretation of the circumstances that overlook what "XYZ Class" can do outside of those. 2) D&D generally revolves around what the party is doing, not the individual. If a character is fulfilling a role within the party then they are not useless. Spellcasters make great BBEGs because they are so tough to beat, and against them the party has to use teamwork - fighters holding off the minions, clerics using heals and buffs, arcane casters countering his magic, monks and rogues trying to get the drop on him etc. No-one is useless who contributes, period. 3) Every class has its Achilles' heel of some sort. What if the fighter pays a spellthief to steal the wizards spell-book before the hypothetical dual? Adventuring parties have to be prepared for everything and anything, which is why they need fighters (or fighting types) and rogues (or skilled types) for when the magic gives out.
Doodle 05-03-07, 01:00 PM	Fighter 10 vs Wizard 10 core only: Start of combat. Option 1: Wizard wins initiative - fighter loses (hopefully I don't have to explain all the ways a wizard can do this). Call this 60/40 for wizard (wizard likely has higher dex, both could take improved initiative). Option 2: Fighter wins initiative and: a) Fighter is more than charging distance away If melee - fighter loses. If archery, fighter basically MUST kill the wizard this round (incapacitation or massive damage). Improved Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Greater Manyshot plus weapon ability's/feats (assume wizard with 14 con) fighter needs to hit and do 40 damage or incapacitate. Call this 70/30 for the fighter (wizard will have magic items, all day buffs up). If fighter doesn't kill wizard, wizard is dimension door and quicken spell away from winning. b) Fighter is close enough to perform 1 standard action (charge etc.). If fighter is archery, same as "a" above. If melee, must do enough damage in 1 hit to incapacitate (remember core only so no leap attack). Disabling attacks (grapple) are useless as wizard will just dimension door away (Verbal only). Call this 70/30 as well. c) Fighter is close enough to perform a full attack action. Wizard is basically dead ignoring pathetic bad luck on the fighters part. Call this 90/10 for the fighter. So overall, you're looking at about a 75% chance that the wizard wins. This increases signficantly if the fighter is not an archer. At we're only at level 10 here. That's just 5th level spells, whereas the fighter has topped out his archery feats (with the exception of improved precise shot which he gets at level 12 - but Greater Manyshot is better under these circumstances anyways - if you assume psionics is core) Me.
DaidojiTaidoru 05-03-07, 01:08 PM	Bobs first tactic is to run over, grapple Merlin, and squeeze the life out of him. We'll assume he has Imp Grapple or maybe even a monk level. At early levels this tactic gives Bob the advantage. At what level does this stop working? 3rd? 5th? 7th? What is the tactic Merlin uses to negate this? You gentlemen answer and then I try to counter the tactic. I'm thinking the first big obstacle will be the fly spell. Am I right? (Some things snipped for brevity) Actually I'm going to say that grappling a wizard is a waste of time past level 7 because of Dimension Door. First round you only are going to pull of a grapple, which means you can't keep him from speaking. Dimension Door is verbal only. One easy Concentration check and the Wizard is far far away, hopefully behind cover, ploting your demise. It only gets worse when they get teleport.
Titan W 05-03-07, 01:13 PM	1) The thing about circumstances is that some classes are only good in a very specific set of circumstances, and totally useless in every other situation. Those classes (and to much greater amount prestige classes) are what we call useless. 2) This is also a problem as the fighter has no out of combat skills and as a result they are only useful in combat (unless you become extremly mediocre at combat by taking cross-class skills and non-combat normal feats) and mostly in melee combat, with a branch off in ranged combat, which is inferior at range to spellcasting or rogues with sneak attack, etc. So fighters really are only good at melee combat, which is totally dependent on weapons, and also on being able to get into melee, spellcasting is good at that (transmutation spells, buffs, summons, etc.) ranged attacks (evocation, all ranged spells), and out of combat with utilities (Prestidigitation, invisiblity, disc, disguise self, healing). 3) Wizards have the ability to cast without their spellbook through a certain feat (can't remember the name thanks to a brain fart) but it would be foolish for a wizard not to spend at least 2 or 3 feats on it (about one every 2 or 3 spell levels gained) so they can save a number equal to their int mod per feat, of their most useful spells, and clerics can easily and cheaply have 6 or 7 holy symbols, and quite frankly both of those are quite deterimental to the strategy of "just take his spellbook and he's useless." They can sneak better than a rogue (silence and greater invisibility) and they can disarm traps easily, etc. the only limitation is spells per day, which isn't a huge deal when at 5th level you have over 20 on most casters (varying levels) and up to 40 or more at 10th if you get bonus spells too. So your arguments are kind of moot.
northern_bear 05-03-07, 01:15 PM	My first one is how to put an end to the confidence of one annoying little munchkin. His conjecture is that at higher levels, fighters just simply get in the way of the mages and that any high level mage can defeat any fighter hands-down. I need someone to tell me of a nice combo of non-magic user classes which can crush any mage and can save against 7th level spells. Note that this combo must be core only (this includes stuff from MM1). If you need to ask for help, just to figure out a good way for a fighter type to take out a wizard type, then doesn't that sort of prove that your friend is right. That wizards (at least most of the time) are a lot tougher than fighters? Also, there isn't any core non magic using build that can crush any mage. There are however core builds that can crush one particular mage. If you know what the characters weaknesses are, then you can build a character to exploit them. But different wizards are going to have different weaknesses. And there is no build that will be effective against all types of wizards. OK, so having said that, you want a core only non spell casting something to kill a wizard? Try a tarrasque. How about a nice magic imune gollem. Or something with spell resistance. Rakshassa are nice. Or if you want something generally humanoid, a drow. Drow wrestler. Strength of 26 to 30. Good speed. High BAB. Strategy: Pray that spell resistance will keep you safe from insta death in round one. Run up to wizard. Grapple him to prevent him casting spells. Pray he doesn't have any quikened spells memorized, and if he does, pray spell resistance holds up. My second issue has to do with Tome of Battle. Maybe I'm just one of those conservative players who doesn't like all this new stuff, but I have a personal problem with that book and the whole "it balances fighters with the casters" spiel. What little balance is left in D&D is now getting thrown out the window with titles like this (if only I had been around for 1.0). Anyway, to get to the point, I'd like to hear some suggestions on how to defeat these new "blade mages" with normal fighters because one of my friends is claiming that ToB makes FTR a "nice two-level dip class," and I really want to find a way to put an end to that idea. Again, it depends on the character. If you know what you're up against, it is easy to build something that can kill it. But there is no build, that can kill anything.
Aminvelos 05-03-07, 01:50 PM	Personally, I always thought the problem was that the casters could eventually full fill the role of tank/caster. Like the druid, he sends in his pet. He's summons Elemental Elders until his high spells run out and then he shapeshifts into a dinosaur or something. Plus for all those little baddies he has area of effect spells. The wizard has the ability to clone himself to prevent full death even if the issue comes up. To add insult to injury he has the abilities to make strong golems to beat up casters and be used as a meat shield or to grapple any close range fighter. On top if this, he can choose a earth elemental familair that can pop out of the ground at anything that comes near to endanger his master. Add contingencies to the list...lichdom... Lets see that fighter grapple my polymorphed dragon when he finally gets right next to it. The problem as I understood it was that in nearly 98% of encounters the caster can out perform the fighter in the fighters job as well as support with spell casting at high levels.
batmanjr 05-03-07, 04:02 PM	Bob will NOT be using any item that creates an Antimagic field for the fact that it is an inherently STUPID concept. And this is a stupid concept, why? If I'm going hunting after a caster, you bet your butt that I'm going to try and find something to counter their advantage. Hmmm, an item that casts a spell that would do just that. I'd buy it. It's only a stupid concept because it simply solves the discussion. That is like saying, he can use any equipment he wants, but none of it can give him an overwhelming advantage, that would be unfair.
ressurrector 05-03-07, 04:21 PM	Replying to the First Post (not the arguments that followed after) I'd just suggest a Monk with full lineup of mage slayer feats, ridiculous size increases from a few sources (like being a large race if there's a low LA one in core, and then enlarge) Of course, a quickened D-Door will still get the wizard out of your immediate area, so if he has that ready you're boned. My real advice: check what spells he has ready, check out his feats and statistics. Rationalize that the guy you're sending after him payed a diviner to find out this stuff. Load your mage-killer up with items to counter his favorite/most effective spells (like energy resistance potions, scarab of protection, etc...) And finally stab him in the back in the middle of the night with a magebane energy burst scythe.
Clawhound 05-03-07, 04:27 PM	The best way is to outthink your players. Cube of Force. Every high level fighter should have one of these. Great item. Protects you against casters and leaves you at full strength. Entirely core. Pick a location that favors a fighter, especially if it has problematic magical effects, such as an old temple with dimensional anchor. Picking your battlefield is half the fight. Entirely core. Dust of Disappearance. Deny the spellcaster a target. Entirely core. Deck of Illusions. Core. They see an illusion of him. He "loses" initiative. He then flanks invisibly. Entirely core. The real trick is that you need to spend a great deal of time researching and thinking up dirty tricks. Your players just picked up the spellcaster dirty tricks from the board. In the end, the Ring of Three Wishes solves everything. Whoever can use it smart enough wins. Wizard 0: Lots of cheese. Fighter 0: Wish first spell cast against him is instead targeted at the person who cast it. Wizard 1: Gate Balor! Fighter 1: Wish for Gate Solar! Wizard 2: Disjunction. Spell reflects back and he can't make his own saves because of all his own cheese. Fighter 2: Uber-charge for massive damage. OK. Maybe not that easy, but you see where I'm driving.
Kresalak 05-03-07, 04:41 PM	And this is a stupid concept, why? If I'm going hunting after a caster, you bet your butt that I'm going to try and find something to counter their advantage. Hmmm, an item that casts a spell that would do just that. I'd buy it. It's only a stupid concept because it simply solves the discussion. That is like saying, he can use any equipment he wants, but none of it can give him an overwhelming advantage, that would be unfair. Because it negates all your magical items that are absolutely necessary to be able to fight against any monsters past level 4? Because its defeated by a single move action? Because it's really expensive?
Radiun 05-03-07, 04:44 PM	How about we set up 2 scenarios at a time and have people "beat them"? Like 1) Wizard King sits on his thrown, and the fighter must kill him. Both are level 10, the mage had a "blonde moment" and didn't put any buffs up prior. There is one entrance, but a decent amount of shadows and pillars to sneak around. (Decorate it however you wish, like a chandelier hanging above the wizards head :P) 2) Same as above, but the wizard is taking a nap and has put up an "Otiluke's Resilient Sphere". Now, as we have seen, I'm bad at this, but that's what other people are for :-P Edit: And in scenario 2, the wizard's party will return before the spell duration expires.
Jenrock 05-03-07, 05:07 PM	The monk idea might work if done right. If your wizard is in a city, he's not going to be expecting an unarmed man to walk up and attack him. I read your feelings toward TOB, but Superoior Unarmed Strike and Rapid Assault along with a Monk's Belt (DMG) will have your monk deal a good bit of damage. When he first atacks, it would be a surprise round, so you could Flurry of Blows before initiative is even rolled. If you have the Player's Handbook II, you can also use Firey Fist for an extra d6 damage. I'm not completely sure, but I think that Snap Kick (from TOB) might work with a Flurry of Blows. Note that personally, I think this is a terrible idea. If you want to prove your friend wrong, don't kill his character. If you two want to see who would win, build two characters and have them duel. Granted, you could call this monk a mercenary/assassin, and use him as a plot hook, but why would you? Even if you could isolate the wizard from his allies, would this be fun? D&D is a game, people take time out of their lives for a little bit of enjoyment, so don't make someone more miserable than daily life already does. If you really want to kill his character, just use DM fiat, because that's basically what your doing if you sick this monk on him.
fighter_mcwarrior 05-03-07, 06:13 PM	What about the friends that the caster summons? Like an earth elemental or iron golem? I don't think the iron golem can be summoned with summon monster or nature's ally. The earth elemental is great, though.
fighter_mcwarrior 05-03-07, 06:14 PM	Everyone is missing something here. This isn't a wargame. Mostly, this situation isn't going to come up, because the fighter will have a party if its an NPC caster. Also, a well played fighter doesn't play by the rules, if the Caster can have friends (constructed or otherwise) so can the fighter. In the end...who the hell cares anyway? Some people (myself included) actually rather like fighters. I have played nearly ever major class (core) and my fondest memories have nothing to do with casting spells. Meh...I suppose. The game really does kinda break down in PvP combat, though it was this guy's suggestion.
fighter_mcwarrior 05-03-07, 06:17 PM	Lets see that fighter grapple my polymorphed dragon when he finally gets right next to it. Freedom of movement fixes that.
Argo 05-03-07, 06:26 PM	Whisper Gnome Rogue/Monk. It's from Races of Stone, but I believe that the Whisper Gnome is available as a preview on the WotC site. Silence as an SLA. Ascetic Rogue = freely multiclass as Monk/Rogue and Sneak Attack with a Stunning Fist to amp up the DC. Improved Natural Attack = unarmed strike as if you were medium. Mageslayer = The wizard can't cast defensively if you're close by. Silencing Strike = The wizard won't be casting any spells with verbal components for a while no matter how far away from you he goes. Improved Stun Tactics: Sneak up on the Wizard (shouldn't be tough with your huge racial mod to Hide/Move Silent + Silence SLA), utilize your Silencing Strike/Stunning Fist/Sneak Attack to shut the Wizard down, tenderize as needed. Should the Wizard have some way of getting out of melee range, activate your boots and Dimension Door after him. If he just teleports to miles away... You won.
Radiun 05-03-07, 06:33 PM	If he just teleports to miles away... You won. At least until the next day when the wizard is prepared for revenge ;-)
Argo 05-03-07, 07:40 PM	If he just teleports to miles away... You won. At least until the next day when the wizard is prepared for revenge ;-) Well... you won that round. And, if you think about it, winning is half the battle.
Strudel_Lumpycakes 05-03-07, 09:35 PM	I don't think the iron golem can be summoned with summon monster or nature's ally. The earth elemental is great, though. True, but in the PHB 2 there is a 9th level spell called Summon Golem. Gets you a golem (any flavor) for 1 min per level.
Zelck 05-03-07, 09:35 PM	Well... you won that round. And, if you think about it, winning is half the battle. How long can you make that save vs. Scrying, though?
ressurrector 05-03-07, 10:09 PM	Scrying dosen't tell you where something is located, it just lets you look at it. Also there's a core item (I forget the name) it's an amulet that prevents being scryed upon.
Zelck 05-03-07, 11:46 PM	Scrying dosen't tell you where something is located, it just lets you look at it. Also there's a core item (I forget the name) it's an amulet that prevents being scryed upon. More importantly, Scrying allows you to Teleport yourself and some other people to what you're looking at and proceed to lay down beatings. And that amulet is beat by a DC 19 caster level check. He's going to cast a successful Scrying eventually.
Cold Napalm 05-04-07, 12:15 AM	Okay mcwarrior, since no items generate an AMF (other then a scroll which a fighter is gonna have some mighty big issues using) unless custom crafted to do so and so is definately NOT core, this is what is called moving the goal post. Why yes, if a fighter can make enough custom magic items to duplicate enough wizard spells, why yes he can win. DUH?!? JUST using core items, it's not gonna happen. Also items that dispel do so at min CL of +5. it's just not gonna work at that level. Also fighters can't use staffs reliably if at all. Grapple fails as soon as a wizard can cast dimension door (silenced if he gets pinned). A ring of freedom of movement also negates this tactic. Using some suppliments, mage slayer line of feats will negate a lot of the illusions and buffs that the wizard will be using for defense. Then you use that 2 bladed sword that dismissals on one end and dimensional anchors on the other with some choice magic items (like fly item) and you might have a chance. Unless of course the wizard has 5 levels of spellsword and spell channels anti-magic field on you. Hey I can fly, you can't...and I have orb spells (that one made a DM cry).
Aminvelos 05-04-07, 12:44 AM	Freedom of movement fixes that. Ok, thats fine, a fighter just wasted at least one feat in order to "adjust" to my one spell that a caster can change, which might I add also has multi-purposes. This doesn't stop the caster from burning him to a crisp or grabbing him and flying him up 480 feet and dropping him. How many spells does a caster have? Enough feats for a fighter to cover for? No. Adaptation is what kills the fighter. The fact is a wizard can be a generalist in his preparation of a spell list and 98% be very effective. A fighter becomes a one or two trick pony to become extremely effective, if he's a generalist his job can just be given to any spellcaster. This is why tob was made, versatility. The fact is you can make a general spell list to prepare for almost any situation, and be effective. You can't create a fighter who will have the feats to allow him to be effective in almost any situation. Why do I need a fighter to tank when I can have a wizard companion who has a earth elemental familair, created 3 golems, and can polymorph into some of the most dangerous creatures across the cosmo's? Oh and did I mention he likes to summon? or that when he dies he goes back to his phylactery until his soul reforms his body? Did I mention he can actually identify all those pretty items with little cost? A fighter is there to keep our wizard's alive until they come of age. -Mestiff Order of the Blackhand
tridiak 05-04-07, 01:24 AM	My little input - Wizards defenses against fighters (or other hackers) assumes they actually have the required spells in their spellbooks. Wiz 20 without certain defensive/generic spells below 7th deserve to die. But who says EVERY wizard has Wind Wall. Or Dimension Door. Or whatever. - Non-spellcasters reaching above 12th level are not idiots. (Game terms Int and/or Wisdom 13+. Anyone with Int or Wis 6 will not live long). (N)PCs don't reach that level by using silly tactics. Any Fighter type of that level WILL have magical eqiupment or Permanency spells which will help them deal with moderate/high powered casters. Although magical encounter frequency will have an effect.
Mootpoint 05-04-07, 01:31 AM	Two options come to mind, 1.) a Drow with the improved spell resistance feat, 2.) either a straight rogue, or a rogue/assassin ...assassin stares at him for three rounds from a hidden location, and mind you thats only eighteen seconds, and then pop make a fort save mister caster man. BASICALLY anything that requires a fort save.
Tempest Stormwind 05-04-07, 02:19 AM	My little input - Wizards defenses against fighters (or other hackers) assumes they actually have the required spells in their spellbooks. Wiz 20 without certain defensive/generic spells below 7th deserve to die. But who says EVERY wizard has Wind Wall. Or Dimension Door. Or whatever.You have the answer in your own assertions. Those two are critical spells. If you were referring to having them ready, see the first-level wizard class feature, Scribe Scroll. (Dimension Door is a great utility spell that can be a panic spell, since it only has verbal components and can thus be used to escape grapples and the like. Keeping one prepped is almost always a good idea. Wind Wall is niche enough that a scroll is enough.) You *can* get around Wind Wall if you can't cast evocations, so long as you have access to either Shadow Evocation or Limited Wish, or something similar to those effects (Shadowcraft, for instance). - Non-spellcasters reaching above 12th level are not idiots. (Game terms Int and/or Wisdom 13+. Anyone with Int or Wis 6 will not live long). (N)PCs don't reach that level by using silly tactics. Any Fighter type of that level WILL have magical eqiupment or Permanency spells which will help them deal with moderate/high powered casters. Although magical encounter frequency will have an effect.It'll help them deal in the same way that a bicycle helmet will help you deal with a bulldozer smacking you in the face. Assuming the caster isn't an idiot, they *might* recognize your remains when he's done with you. (One third-level spell and most of that gear is negligable for a brief window, for instance, and that assumes the caster doesn't use a stronger tactic first.)
fighter_mcwarrior 05-04-07, 02:59 AM	Ok, thats fine, a fighter just wasted at least one feat in order to "adjust" to my one spell that a caster can change, which might I add also has multi-purposes. This doesn't stop the caster from burning him to a crisp or grabbing him and flying him up 480 feet and dropping him. How many spells does a caster have? Enough feats for a fighter to cover for? No. FoM is a spell, not a feat. Why do I need a fighter to tank when I can have a wizard companion who has a earth elemental familair, created 3 golems, and can polymorph into some of the most dangerous creatures across the cosmo's? Oh and did I mention he likes to summon? or that when he dies he goes back to his phylactery until his soul reforms his body? Did I mention he can actually identify all those pretty items with little cost? Because crafting golems can get really expensive really quickly (an iron golem costs 80k to create, plus the EXP), especially when you run into someone who has access to Rusting Grasp. Polymorph in the PHB only works up to 15 HD, and unless your new form is capable of somatic + verbal components, you lose all normal spellcasting. Okay, so your spellcaster is a lich, I buy a scroll of wish/miracle. For wish, I hire a bunch of sages to lawyer my wish and ask for the phylactery to be blown up. For miracle, I ask for the same thing, only I don't have to lawyer it.
Midnight_v 05-04-07, 04:16 AM	Waitaminute :confused: Somebody did somebody tell him that His friend is right? Hi, I'm from the CharOp board. Nice to meet you. Anyway: your friends are right. In Core, straight Fighter is good for exactly one thing: tripping. And CoD passes them long before that. Hi, I'm from the CharOp board too. You have misconceptions about the game my friend. Many times the game is what it is ,and not what you want it to be. Wizards are greater than fighters and the specifics are in my sig. If you're open minded enough go over to the charops boards and listen to conversations between physicist and social engineers concerning power levels in D&D. If you're not then you're going to cling to your misconceptions even in face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. But about that evidence I'd like you to play a game with me. I'm going to post a build and I want you to kill it. You have the advantage of knowing exactly what you're up against. It'll be a wizard x (no prcing) Just let me know what books are allowed? You may not agree to this. Thats fine, too, and no hard feelings. The important thing is that you allow yourself to be open to the "idea" that you might not be right about these situations. In general 1. Wizard v. Fighter = Victorious wizards/Defeated Fighter 2. ToB. Happens to be a good addition adressing many problems of melee classes in general.
ArcanaKnight 05-04-07, 04:40 AM	Okay mcwarrior, since no items generate an AMF (other then a scroll which a fighter is gonna have some mighty big issues using) unless custom crafted to do so and so is definately NOT core, this is what is called moving the goal post. Why yes, if a fighter can make enough custom magic items to duplicate enough wizard spells, why yes he can win. DUH?!? JUST using core items, it's not gonna happen. Also items that dispel do so at min CL of +5. it's just not gonna work at that level. Also fighters can't use staffs reliably if at all. First of all, how are custom crafted magic items not core? They are in the DMG. Sencondly, the tactics differ depending on what type of mage you are up against. What you would use against a conjurer would be vastly different than what you would use against an evoker. Part of a fighter's power, indeed any class's power to a certain extent, depends on tactics. If you only use the most basic tactics of charging and attacking, you will almost certainly lose to someone with even a basic understanding of tactics.
Leo 05-04-07, 06:42 AM	Prepared wizard that knows what he will face can't lose(except against other wizard, since he can prepare before hand the right strategy with items and scrolls) This includes the rogue, barbarian, all the ToB guys, psionics the cleric, the druid, etc, etc. So, if the wizard pwns all other classes, why only the fighter gets hated? Problem is, in game you rarely know what's around the corner. Yes, there is diviniation magic, but there's also plenty of anti divination magic, much of it can be placed into items. And there are antimagic items. Antimagic torch actual y is sugested in the rogue's handbook b the Cop guys themselves(who aparently didn't bother to make a fighter's handbook, wich just shows they simply hate the class and won't admit it is good not even if wotc grants it pun-pun as a 100% loyal cohort from lv1, and only as long as you don't multiclass).
spectralphoenix 05-04-07, 07:04 AM	First of all, how are custom crafted magic items not core? They are in the DMG. Great, I'll have a Sword of True Strike to go, please!
kelvinaw273 05-04-07, 07:53 AM	The fighting type most likely to have a ghost of a chance against any caster (and this assumes an unprepared caster at that) at high levels is the Monk, with the best saves, high mobility and Stunning Fist - and spell resistance at higher level. In fact Monks have often been described as 'mage killers'. Fact is, Casters are very powerful at high level. There need to be more high-level fighting feats that compensate, but for some reason there are very few. Anyone feel like producing a few?
starfire311 05-04-07, 08:40 AM	Great, I'll have a Sword of True Strike to go, please! lol, that was exactly what I was thinking when I saw his post, "I'll take 1, use activated sword of true strike, please."
northern_bear 05-04-07, 12:07 PM	True, but in the PHB 2 there is a 9th level spell called Summon Golem. Gets you a golem (any flavor) for 1 min per level. On a totally off topic rant, yes, and what a stupid spell that is. Hmm, summon monster 9 lets you summon a tough monster, that lasts 20 rounds. Boring! Let's create a new spell that lets you summon something twice as tough as anything you can get with summon monster 9. And let's have that spell last 10 times as long. Genius!
northern_bear 05-04-07, 12:22 PM	Back on topic, if you know what abilities and defences a character has, you should be able to create an opponent that will clober them. To OP, post the following information: Class & Level Feats Magic Equipment Spells the character has available/prepared. If you do this, I am certain that we can provide you with a non spell casting opponent who will beat that wizard 98 times out of 100. Even if it is core only. Of course, that doesn't prove anything about the relative strengths/weaknesses of spell casters or fighters. But it will give you the opponent you want.
Doodle 05-04-07, 01:11 PM	But about that evidence I'd like you to play a game with me. I'm going to post a build and I want you to kill it. You have the advantage of knowing exactly what you're up against. It'll be a wizard x (no prcing) Just let me know what books are allowed? You may not agree to this. Thats fine, too, and no hard feelings. Hi Midnight... I actually DISagree with the original poster and I do think that the wizard is significantly more powerful than the fighter. However, I think it's a misconception that the wizard always wins. For example, Core, 28 pt build (which favours the caster), level 10 Elf Fighter 10 (obviously not super optimized) Str 14 Dex 26 (Base 16 +2race +2inherent +6item) Con 12 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10 Init: +12 Atk: 10BAB + 8Dex +1WF +1GWF +3Magic (arrows) = +23/+18 Dmg: 1d8 +2str +2WS +2GWS +1d6fire +1d6 Cold = 18avg Feats: F1: Imp. Init, WF: Bow F2: PBS F3: PS F4: WS: Bow F5: F6: Rapid Shot, ManyShot F7: F8: GWF: bow F9: Greater Manyshot F10: GWS: Bow Items of Note (you'll have to check the GP math - I forget the level amount for level 10): Gloves +6 20 arrows +3 Mighty (+2) Longbow +1 Fire, Cold With a +12 Initiative I should go 1st +/-75% of the time. Since a 1 is an auto miss, with GMS, I have a 95% chance of hitting AC 25 or lower, doing 54pts of damage. I think this gives me at least a 50% chance of killing the wizard. This one, very specific build, at a level where the wizard only has access to level 5 spells, using core only, and where I am at the top of my feat tree (i.e. can't get any better with a bow) I have a 50% chance against a wizard I've always liked these theoretical execrises. Me.
Aminvelos 05-04-07, 02:14 PM	Okay, so your spellcaster is a lich, I buy a scroll of wish/miracle. For wish, I hire a bunch of sages to lawyer my wish and ask for the phylactery to be blown up. For miracle, I ask for the same thing, only I don't have to lawyer it. wish being completely abused here it's suppose to be ruffly equal to other level 9 spells even with the 5000 exp cost. But how pray tell is the non-caster going to read these magical incantations which he has no skills in? Only items with simple word activations can be easily used by non casters. Golems are costly? So? You don't think buying a wish spell will be? or perhaps all the items that actually make a fighter useful? I can repair a golem, I can cut costs with a few feats. Losing possibly the = of 1 lvl to have 3 extra golems is a no brainer if I'm proving the fighter is inadequate. A fighters usefullness is cut even worse when up against something with rust. Even if the the golems are downed I can always collect whats left and make something with it, and even then I can still cast summon spells while the fighter just uses his oh so powerful fist.
Zelck 05-04-07, 02:20 PM	EDIT: Whoops.
fighter_mcwarrior 05-04-07, 07:23 PM	Waitaminute :confused: Somebody did somebody tell him that His friend is right? Hi, I'm from the CharOp board too. You have misconceptions about the game my friend. Many times the game is what it is ,and not what you want it to be. Wizards are greater than fighters and the specifics are in my sig. If you're open minded enough go over to the charops boards and listen to conversations between physicist and social engineers concerning power levels in D&D. If you're not then you're going to cling to your misconceptions even in face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. But about that evidence I'd like you to play a game with me. I'm going to post a build and I want you to kill it. You have the advantage of knowing exactly what you're up against. It'll be a wizard x (no prcing) Just let me know what books are allowed? You may not agree to this. Thats fine, too, and no hard feelings. The important thing is that you allow yourself to be open to the "idea" that you might not be right about these situations. In general 1. Wizard v. Fighter = Victorious wizards/Defeated Fighter 2. ToB. Happens to be a good addition adressing many problems of melee classes in general. I do not trust powergamers, and I do not accept challenges from powergamers because they intentionally bend the rules. I do not let them into my games if I can help it. If any powergamers show up in my games, I have fun with them (ie: awakened paragon chicken of doom with monk levels).
fighter_mcwarrior 05-04-07, 07:34 PM	wish being completely abused here it's suppose to be ruffly equal to other level 9 spells even with the 5000 exp cost. But how pray tell is the non-caster going to read these magical incantations which he has no skills in? Only items with simple word activations can be easily used by non casters. Oh gosh, oh darn, I only have to ask someone to use it for me. Mission accomplished. Golems are costly? So? You don't think buying a wish spell will be? or perhaps all the items that actually make a fighter useful? I can repair a golem, I can cut costs with a few feats. Losing possibly the = of 1 lvl to have 3 extra golems is a no brainer if I'm proving the fighter is inadequate. A fighters usefullness is cut even worse when up against something with rust. Even if the the golems are downed I can always collect whats left and make something with it, and even then I can still cast summon spells while the fighter just uses his oh so powerful fist. For what you get in return, wish is more cost effective. As for those items non casters use, they are still less expensive than creating a golem. Even if a wizard uses rusting grasp or summons a rust monster, the fighter's items get a save if they are magical (and they will be) and rust attacks are almost always touch attacks. In the event that the fighter's primary weapon is rusted, he just pulls out his spare weapon and continues swinging away.
Ceirnian 05-04-07, 07:52 PM	My fighter can kill a wizard by using a 9th level wizard spell he asks someone else to cast from a scroll for him! AWESOME
Zelck 05-04-07, 08:50 PM	I do not trust powergamers, and I do not accept challenges from powergamers because they intentionally bend the rules. I do not let them into my games if I can help it. If any powergamers show up in my games, I have fun with them (ie: awakened paragon chicken of doom with monk levels). Perhaps you have a different definition or conception of what a power gamer is than I do. What you described sounds like a "munchkin", aka someone who will seriously distort or willfully ignore the rules to make themselves more powerful. They're usually very unpleasant to play with. On the other hand, many people here seem to be powergamers. That is, they enjoy playing powerful and legal characters. Many, especially on the boards, also seem to know how to roleplay and play well with others. "Powergame, because you can't roleplay when you're dead." ;) (don't know who said that... apologies)
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-04-07, 09:07 PM	As for those who call FTR a "dip class," I'd like you to meet Thrain the Gold Dwarf FTR/dwarven defender. At level 14, he was more than a match for anyone out of ToB. I would have given him levels in BRB as well in retrospect, but he's a great example of a well optimized fighter. Counter for Dwarven defender? Ummm 'Walk away briskly' I think it is. Take him on from outwith his reach, not to hard V a dwarf at the best of times if your even half awake.
wal9000 05-04-07, 09:30 PM	I've seen a lot of mention of contingent spells and how they can just make a fighter's attempts at killing a wizard hopeless. I'd like to remind everyone that we're not discussing fighters versus wizards in general. We're talking about one specific caster, and whether he could be taken down by a pure combat build. Does the wizard in question actually have contingent spells? It's unfair to discount ranged fighters simply on the chance that the wiz has a contingent wind wall. It may be an intelligent choice to have one, but not everyone spends hours reading the boards to find what contingent spells they might want.
wal9000 05-04-07, 09:41 PM	Forgot to make my personal recommendation. There's a common assumption that no new combatants will ever show up after the first round, and strategies are planned according to what enemies the party knows are there. Why not have a group of rival (perhaps evil) adventurers give them the jump sometime, going so far as to use intelligent strategies that the party might use themselves. They will already have buffs up from the cleric or wizard. First round consists of the fighter charing in to soak up damage and distract people, the cleric follows up to lay down some healing, and the wizard can toss off some damage, battlefield control, or ready to counterspell whatever the wizard you're trying to kill does. They see three combatants, probably lower level than they are, and assume it's an easy fight. Then the rogue (who could be invisible, or could just be hiding in the bushes) lays down a full attack on the wizard and toasts him. The wizard won't have bothered to put up any defenses against archers (unless he keeps it up 24/7, in which case this won't work), and he's dead in that round or the next. It's needlessly complicated, and certainly isn't the only way to do it, but it's got a pretty fair chance.
tridiak 05-04-07, 09:50 PM	Contingent Wind Wall. That's funny. Throw a small rock at him while he's inside an Art gallery. Later on. When he's having lunch. Or on the beach. Sand will be blown everywhere.
Vaelan 05-04-07, 10:10 PM	I need someone to tell me of a nice combo of non-magic user classes which can crush any mage and can save against 7th level spells. If you want to shut the guy up, point out that this approach is both exceedingly juvenile and irrelevant to the actual game. My second issue has to do with Tome of Battle. Maybe I'm just one of those conservative players who doesn't like all this new stuff, but I have a personal problem with that book and the whole "it balances fighters with the casters" spiel. So ignore it and focus on the other things that the book does, such as make melee characters more than a choice between full attacking and charging or making effective melee characters more accessible to people who don't own every book under the sun. I'd like to hear some suggestions on how to defeat these new "blade mages" with normal fighters because one of my friends is claiming that ToB makes FTR a "nice two-level dip class," and I really want to find a way to put an end to that idea. You can make a ridiculously optimized Fighter and beat your average Warblade, but that only proves that there was a problem with the Fighter in the first place.
fighter_mcwarrior 05-05-07, 01:49 AM	Counter for Dwarven defender? Ummm 'Walk away briskly' I think it is. Take him on from outwith his reach, not to hard V a dwarf at the best of times if your even half awake. Sure, but that's usually why any good melee person has a backup or a ranged weapon. If you can't hit 'em up close, then barrage 'em with missiles of every type. I will admit Thrain really sucks on the open plains, but he is rockin' awesome at being a one-man (or one-dwarf, to be accurate) spartan army in small, enclosed dungeon spaces. The guy had an AC of 40+ by level 14 and could still move at his normal speed. To remedy the speed issue, you can always buy boots of speed.
fighter_mcwarrior 05-05-07, 01:50 AM	Perhaps you have a different definition or conception of what a power gamer is than I do. What you described sounds like a "munchkin", aka someone who will seriously distort or willfully ignore the rules to make themselves more powerful. They're usually very unpleasant to play with. On the other hand, many people here seem to be powergamers. That is, they enjoy playing powerful and legal characters. Many, especially on the boards, also seem to know how to roleplay and play well with others. "Powergame, because you can't roleplay when you're dead." ;) (don't know who said that... apologies) Ack..sorry. I don't know what I was thinking there.
crow04 05-05-07, 02:48 AM	The guy had an AC of 40+ by level 14 and could still move at his normal speed. idlely curious, what's his touch AC?
kelvinaw273 05-05-07, 04:01 AM	Interestingly, perhaps it should be considered that after their four-encounters-per-day, the fighter will whip the wizard's ass. Why? Well the wizard should be out of spells at that point, while the fighter may be on 1/4 hit points but can still hack like he could in the morning ... :D The fighter can also function normally on little sleep. But if you really want an independent character, take a monk. Good saves, spell resistance at high level, high touch AC ... and you can drop them naked anywhere and they still function perfectly ...
Zelck 05-05-07, 04:53 AM	Interestingly, perhaps it should be considered that after their four-encounters-per-day, the fighter will whip the wizard's ass. Why? Well the wizard should be out of spells at that point, while the fighter may be on 1/4 hit points but can still hack like he could in the morning ... :D An 8th level wizard should have 16 spells a day. That's 4 spells per encounter, which should be enough. The fighter can also function normally on little sleep. But if you really want an independent character, take a monk. Good saves, spell resistance at high level, high touch AC ... and you can drop them naked anywhere and they still function perfectly ... Well, I don't want to derail, but I would like to point out some think the monk doesn't function very well even with full equipment ;). There's a thread in the Classes forum about it, I think.
spectralphoenix 05-05-07, 11:42 AM	For the record, you can't have a contingent Wind Wall - the spell used for Contingency must be one that affects your person while Wind Wall creates an effect.
kelvinaw273 05-05-07, 12:20 PM	An 8th level wizard should have 16 spells a day. That's 4 spells per encounter, which should be enough. Well, I don't want to derail, but I would like to point out some think the monk doesn't function very well even with full equipment ;). There's a thread in the Classes forum about it, I think. They function better as mage-bashers than fighter do. I like monks, so maybe I am biased, and I know that those that prefer set-piece arena battles say the monk is useless. My argument here though is that the monk functions better than any other class save perhaps the sorcerer with no equipment at all. I'll take an equal level monk up against a wizard with no spell book* or a fighter with no weapons and armour any day ....:D * assuming they were not designed from the ground up just to be a wizard with no spell book purely for this encounter.
crow04 05-05-07, 01:46 PM	For the record, you can't have a contingent Wind Wall - the spell used for Contingency must be one that affects your person while Wind Wall creates an effect. not useing the spell contingency, but the magic item contingent spell, which is from complte arcane and has different rules
spectralphoenix 05-05-07, 02:51 PM	not useing the spell contingency, but the magic item contingent spell, which is from complte arcane and has different rules CA contingent spells say they can target the wielder or be centered on the wielder if they affect an area. Wind Wall has neither a target nor an area - it creates an effect.
fighter_mcwarrior 05-05-07, 06:17 PM	idlely curious, what's his touch AC? That was his one weakness, but I could have made it higher if my DM wasn't stingy with gold. To be honest, I don't remember exactly what it was.
Aminvelos 05-08-07, 11:03 AM	Oh gosh, oh darn, I only have to ask someone to use it for me. Mission accomplished. For what you get in return, wish is more cost effective. As for those items non casters use, they are still less expensive than creating a golem. Even if a wizard uses rusting grasp or summons a rust monster, the fighter's items get a save if they are magical (and they will be) and rust attacks are almost always touch attacks. In the event that the fighter's primary weapon is rusted, he just pulls out his spare weapon and continues swinging away. Once again you continually help prove my point. You don't think a golem will get saves? Not including a great deal of immunity to many magics. You require a wish scroll to be readily available. Which hell if you get it I get it, but you count upon casters who create it. You count on magical weapons, but you count on casters to create it. If you allow the complete mage reserve feats kill the whole, hey a mage has a limited spells to cast. The fact that I can cast a spell to improve my speed against your slow drawf means he'll never get to me. "oh but I can buy boots or teleport" ok so your spending more money for one single counter, which means I can do the same for other such items. Except when it comes down to it unless the dm's just letting you buy anything you want, I'll still be able to create it. Golems are still a great way to go, even if one out of three needs to be repaired I still have my familair, and the other two. The flesh golem and stone golem won't be affected by rust. All your examples you were using specific scrolls that will give you the ability to counter, but you won't have all those scrolls on you at all times. My general wizard build, will always have the same spells prepared, 3 golems and a familair. Your victory still isn't assured and the fact of the matter is my 3 golems will tank better than your one fighter with my wizard backing them up with additional spells and monsters to summon. Golems are more expensive than weapons? Ok, does a wizard need physical weapons? Full plate mail? Food, oh they got a spell. Horse to travel quicker? Pay for a night at the inn? Oh they got a sanct. Are golems more expensive? Yes. Are they better weapons? Yes. The fact that they are more expensive doesn't mean it's not cost effective. The wizard doesn't have to count on anyone. They can clone themselves if they die, they don't need someone to bring them back. They have contingency to make it so teleport away if ever about to be damaged. A fighter needs someone to put them on par with what the wizard can do. That in themselves makes them less versatile and by doing so less powerful.
CCS 05-08-07, 02:33 PM	How to kill a caster.... You wait patiently and kill them in their sleep. Or, if you want them awake at the time of death, you simply arange for them not to get enough rest to recharge their spells. Then you split them in half with an axe as the sun rises. If/when they complain that you cheated? Shrug and tell them that you're a fighter - not stupid.
DaidojiTaidoru 05-08-07, 02:45 PM	How to kill a caster.... You wait patiently and kill them in their sleep. Or, if you want them awake at the time of death, you simply arange for them not to get enough rest to recharge their spells. Then you split them in half with an axe as the sun rises. If/when they complain that you cheated? Shrug and tell them that you're a fighter - not stupid. Problem - As a fighter you are the class least capable of pulling off those tasks. And they are tasks, because any mage worth his salt has an alarm spell with companions backing it up or is in one of the many many spells designed to keep sleeping mages away from guys with pointy objects. Rogues can pull it off with difficulty, but no one without trap sense stands a chance. Edit: Sorry, no non caster without trap sense stands a chance. Casters can cheat as normal.
tridiak 05-08-07, 03:40 PM	Could someone give a list of "must-have" spells. Players & campaign-orientated (FR, Eberron, Greyhawk, ...) spells only. I'm definitely not a mage expert.
philipk 05-08-07, 04:06 PM	Sure, but that's usually why any good melee person has a backup or a ranged weapon. If you can't hit 'em up close, then barrage 'em with missiles of every type. I will admit Thrain really sucks on the open plains, but he is rockin' awesome at being a one-man (or one-dwarf, to be accurate) spartan army in small, enclosed dungeon spaces. The guy had an AC of 40+ by level 14 and could still move at his normal speed. To remedy the speed issue, you can always buy boots of speed. Level 5 Swordsage. Maneuvers: Fan the Flames, Shadow Jaunt Strategy: 1. Get to 30ft. Fan the Flames (ranged touch) for 6d6 damage. 2. Shadow Jaunt away (if the DD closed...lol) and move further away. 3. Recover Fan the Flames (and shadow jaunt. Bonus if you have adaptive style for the double recovery). 4. Repeat. Now a ranged weapon could hit the swordsage, but it's not hard to protect from missles with an item, etc. This is also with a fairly low-level ss with two maneuvers that I thought of off the top of my head.
spectralphoenix 05-08-07, 05:28 PM	How to kill a caster.... You wait patiently and kill them in their sleep. Or, if you want them awake at the time of death, you simply arange for them not to get enough rest to recharge their spells. Then you split them in half with an axe as the sun rises. If/when they complain that you cheated? Shrug and tell them that you're a fighter - not stupid. Unless the mage sleeps in a Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion, or just teleports back to his bachelor pad at the end of every day's adventuring. Or simply hides his body away on his private demiplane and does all his adventuring with Astral Projection.
Matthew77 05-08-07, 05:31 PM	Level 5 Swordsage. Maneuvers: Fan the Flames, Shadow Jaunt Strategy: 1. Get to 30ft. Fan the Flames (ranged touch) for 6d6 damage. 2. Shadow Jaunt away (if the DD closed...lol) and move further away. 3. Recover Fan the Flames (and shadow jaunt. Bonus if you have adaptive style for the double recovery). 4. Repeat. What is this strategy intended to accomplish? Because my basic response as a melee fighter would be to charge you in between steps 1 and 2, charge you again in between steps 2 and 3 (unless you had some sort of canyon to teleport across) and full attack you between steps 3 and 4. A level 5 spellcaster has even more effective ways of dealing with an opponent who is starting 30' away from him.
DaidojiTaidoru 05-08-07, 05:33 PM	What is this strategy intended to accomplish? Because my basic response as a melee fighter would be to charge you in between steps 1 and 2, charge you again in between steps 2 and 3 (unless you had some sort of canyon to teleport across) and full attack you between steps 3 and 4. A level 5 spellcaster has even more effective ways of dealing with an opponent who is starting 30' away from him. It's to beat a dwarven defender. I don't think it would work if the level difference was high enough, but the problem with the Dwarven Defender is that in order to use his class features he has to effectively remove himself from combat and become a map fixture.
Matthew77 05-08-07, 05:40 PM	It's to beat a dwarven defender. I don't think it would work if the level difference was high enough, but the problem with the Dwarven Defender is that in order to use his class features he has to effectively remove himself from combat and become a map fixture. If I was the DD and this lightly armored guy kept sneaking up and chucking fire at me, I'd charge him anyway. Dwarf in heavy armor with a d12 hitdie and full BAB wins vs sneaky guy in light armor with d8 and 3/4 BAB, even if the DD can't use his defensive stances. Unless the terrain greatly favors the ability to teleport short distances every couple rounds.
Lord T Hawkeye 05-08-07, 05:54 PM	Wizard once said to the melees "All right meat shields, hop to it" Melees took offense to that and didn't hop to it. Wizard promptly eaten. Damage doesn't mean much if you haven't got someone to keep you safe while you whip up the magic. Never forget that. I don't care how good a quarterback you think you are, you would be nothing without your teammates backing you up.
DaidojiTaidoru 05-08-07, 06:01 PM	If I was the DD and this lightly armored guy kept sneaking up and chucking fire at me, I'd charge him anyway. Dwarf in heavy armor with a d12 hitdie and full BAB wins vs sneaky guy in light armor with d8 and 3/4 BAB, even if the DD can't use his defensive stances. Unless the terrain greatly favors the ability to teleport short distances every couple rounds. Well yeah. The DD would win by standard fighter tactics if he had more class levels or the Sword Sage was played poorly, but really, taking levels in Dwarven Defender is like taking levels in Barbarian without getting rage. Defensive stance is well near useless and that's 5 out of 10 levels wasted. Since two of the other levels are trap sense well....
Matthew77 05-08-07, 07:13 PM	Wizard once said to the melees "All right meat shields, hop to it" Melees took offense to that and didn't hop to it. Wizard promptly eaten. Damage doesn't mean much if you haven't got someone to keep you safe while you whip up the magic. Never forget that. I don't care how good a quarterback you think you are, you would be nothing without your teammates backing you up. Except a team that is all spellcasters is more effective than a team that includes non-spellcasters. Saying "you need a team to back you up" is not a persuasive argument for the usefulness of melee fighters.
DarkRhystar 05-08-07, 11:06 PM	Wizard once said to the melees "All right meat shields, hop to it" Melees took offense to that and didn't hop to it. Wizard promptly eaten. Wizard shortly after animated their corpses. Melees don't take offense to anything anymore. Fixed that for ya.
Optimator 05-08-07, 11:07 PM	Could someone give a list of "must-have" spells. Players & campaign-orientated (FR, Eberron, Greyhawk, ...) spells only. I'm definitely not a mage expert. Pretty good list here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500)
Archangel62 05-09-07, 08:20 AM	fighter_mcwarrior, you have proven that you have made up your mind already in regards to what a caster class can and cannot do and the same for a martial one. Because of this I see little reason to honestly try to debate you since you don't seem willing to consider anyone else's opinion. A caster has the advantage of a permanently mutable system, one day they can be field control experts, another day debuffers, another summoners, etc. Martial characters have the issue of being rather...well predictable for lack of a better term. That and with the wonderful spell polymorph any object your armor is now an angry vrok.