Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RealSorceror 04-16-07, 10:11 AM	I'm in an epic game, lvl 35, and my PC is constantly having to fight a PC Knight in a gladiator arena, one-on-one. I'm playing an OA Samurai/Fighter, and I can kill the Knight in 3 rounds or less, and I can easily disarm him of his weapons. However, the blighter won't die. He has that Knight special ability that keeps him alive long after he should be dead so long as he expends uses per day. This means he can keep going like 22 rounds after I've already killed him. Nonlethal damage also won't bring him down, and he is immune to death effects while this ability is active. His armor also grants immunity to criticals. After I disarm him, he basically just slowly pummels me to death with unarmed strikes and a high Str mod. So, what do I do? Will a vorpal weapon work? I have 10 attacks a round, so there is a decent chance of rolling a nat 20. Is there any way to disable him for 10 rounds or so? He instantly dies once his charges are used up.
Witch 04-16-07, 10:19 AM	Try running. Buy a teleportation item that allows you to run away. Buy Boots of Swiftness to stay ahead of him. Don't allow him to hit you and wait until he dies.
Banatine 04-16-07, 10:24 AM	Why are 2 PCs fighting to the death in the first place? Are you seriously telling me, at epic level, that you can't just say 'i won't fight', and leave the arena? Anyway, if you can't beat him, then as a samurai, you should honourably accept defeat. Just don't forget to find your cleric after he collapses.
Tempest Stormwind 04-16-07, 10:56 AM	1) Do you have Combat Reflexes? I'm willing to bet he doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike, which means you hit him every time he tries to attack you. This can be compounded if you have Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit. If you're from the Scorpion clan (and can thus get away with this without people yelling at you), use some knockout poison -- knights, paradoxically, have a poor Fortitude save, and if he's unconcious, he can't use Loyal Beyond Death. 2) The knight loses some of his challenge uses if he breaks his code. Find ways to force him to break his code -- I'm AFB, so I forget exactly what it is, but one solution would be to run him through (OA Samurai? Iaijutsu the bastard), sheathe your sword, and kneel in a meditative pose. Claim that you have already won and to attack a defeated opponent would not be honorable. He's then stuck burning his challenge uses to stay alive *and* to try to attack an unarmed, undefensive opponent. (I think the code even says something about being unable to attack flat-footed foes; ask your DM if you can give up your initiative altogether and continue to be treated as flat-footed for as long as you kneel). Basically, if you can get him to violate even ONE condition of his code, he can only attack you for half as long, and this time shrinks even more for every additional condition you get him to violate. He's stuck between getting a few hits in or accepting that he lost. 3) You might want to consider tripping him or grappling him, although he may have the advantage over you at this point. Do note that so long as you can keep him prone or in a grapple, his offensive actions are limited. Furthermore, you probably have a wakizashi, which (as a light weapon) can be used in a grapple without penalty, giving you a slight edge if you go the grapple route.
RealSorceror 04-16-07, 11:30 AM	Try running. Buy a teleportation item that allows you to run away. Buy Boots of Swiftness to stay ahead of him. Don't allow him to hit you and wait until he dies. The Knight has Boots of Swiftness. Also, teleportation doesn't work inside the arena. But I'll still try some speed boosters anyway.
RealSorceror 04-16-07, 11:32 AM	Why are 2 PCs fighting to the death in the first place? Because its fun? And because we have giant egos? Are you seriously telling me, at epic level, that you can't just say 'i won't fight', and leave the arena? Anyway, if you can't beat him, then as a samurai, you should honourably accept defeat. Just don't forget to find your cleric after he collapses. Problem: I'm a Githyanki.
RealSorceror 04-16-07, 11:38 AM	1) Do you have Combat Reflexes? I'm willing to bet he doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike, which means you hit him every time he tries to attack you. This can be compounded if you have Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit. If you're from the Scorpion clan (and can thus get away with this without people yelling at you), use some knockout poison -- knights, paradoxically, have a poor Fortitude save, and if he's unconcious, he can't use Loyal Beyond Death. Like I said, with ten attacks a round, I kill him really dead, really fast. The poison thing sounds like a good idea, though. :plotting: 2) The knight loses some of his challenge uses if he breaks his code. Find ways to force him to break his code -- I'm AFB, so I forget exactly what it is, but one solution would be to run him through (OA Samurai? Iaijutsu the bastard), sheathe your sword, and kneel in a meditative pose. Claim that you have already won and to attack a defeated opponent would not be honorable. He's then stuck burning his challenge uses to stay alive *and* to try to attack an unarmed, undefensive opponent. (I think the code even says something about being unable to attack flat-footed foes; ask your DM if you can give up your initiative altogether and continue to be treated as flat-footed for as long as you kneel). Basically, if you can get him to violate even ONE condition of his code, he can only attack you for half as long, and this time shrinks even more for every additional condition you get him to violate. He's stuck between getting a few hits in or accepting that he lost. Thats absolutely evil! I like it! :plotting: 3) You might want to consider tripping him or grappling him, although he may have the advantage over you at this point. Do note that so long as you can keep him prone or in a grapple, his offensive actions are limited. Furthermore, you probably have a wakizashi, which (as a light weapon) can be used in a grapple without penalty, giving you a slight edge if you go the grapple route. Its a pretty long fight, so I'll probably have a chance to try out all of these strategies. Getting him to break his code sounds especially promising. Thanks muchly, dude. You usually have some great advice.
OravennasBrother 04-16-07, 11:39 AM	Get improved Grapple and spend for Permanent Enlarge Person, then pin the chump until he dies.
kelvinaw273 04-16-07, 11:43 AM	Vorpal Blade should do it, yes. Otherwise ... ten attacks a round??? Oh well. How about switching weapons on him. Take him to zero then use a tripping/grappling weapon (you mention his strength, so he may be better than you at these unless you use a spiked chain or something), so that you can slow him down ... or just grab his weapon and taunt him to come and get it. After all, no reason you have to stand there and get pummeled.
RealSorceror 04-16-07, 12:22 PM	Vorpal Blade should do it, yes. Otherwise ... ten attacks a round??? Oh well. Two weapon fighting and Speed weapons. :D How about switching weapons on him. Take him to zero then use a tripping/grappling weapon (you mention his strength, so he may be better than you at these unless you use a spiked chain or something), so that you can slow him down ... or just grab his weapon and taunt him to come and get it. After all, no reason you have to stand there and get pummeled. I'm gonna try and disable him or get him to break his code. Really, if it weren't for his class ability, I pwn him completely.
ZiggZagg 04-16-07, 01:16 PM	Would kneeling like that really work to break his code? If the rules are that you must fight to the death, how is it dishonorable to kill someone just for being stupid? "I stabbed you once, so now I win. This is my code, so it must be right."...if I was DM, I would declare the knight can kick you right in the head for that, and not lose his abilities for it.
Toloran 04-16-07, 01:20 PM	Would kneeling like that really work to break his code? If the rules are that you must fight to the death, how is it dishonorable to kill someone just for being stupid? "I stabbed you once, so now I win. This is my code, so it must be right."...if I was DM, I would declare the knight can kick you right in the head for that, and not lose his abilities for it. They just can't deal LETHAL damage to a helpless opponent. They aren't paladins =P So they can just smack the person over the head with the flat of their blade (at a -4 penalty) until they go unconscious.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 04-16-07, 01:47 PM	There is no hope. A knight can always beat a samurai. It is a law of nature.
kelvinaw273 04-16-07, 01:48 PM	Two weapon fighting and Speed weapons. :D I'm gonna try and disable him or get him to break his code. Really, if it weren't for his class ability, I pwn him completely. Maxed out fighter levels = 4 attacks, TWF alone is +1 attack, Speed weapons, + 1 attack each = 7 attacks. If you have Imrpoved & greater TWF I think that makes it up to 9 ... have to check ...
Nephlite 04-16-07, 01:49 PM	I'm in an epic game, lvl 35, and my PC is constantly having to fight a PC Knight in a gladiator arena, one-on-one. I'm playing an OA Samurai/Fighter, and I can kill the Knight in 3 rounds or less, and I can easily disarm him of his weapons. However, the blighter won't die. He has that Knight special ability that keeps him alive long after he should be dead so long as he expends uses per day. This means he can keep going like 22 rounds after I've already killed him. Nonlethal damage also won't bring him down, and he is immune to death effects while this ability is active. His armor also grants immunity to criticals. After I disarm him, he basically just slowly pummels me to death with unarmed strikes and a high Str mod. So, what do I do? Will a vorpal weapon work? I have 10 attacks a round, so there is a decent chance of rolling a nat 20. Is there any way to disable him for 10 rounds or so? He instantly dies once his charges are used up. Can Knights attack prone people? (I forget the rules) If not, attack prone and attack him. He can burn a use/day to attack you back, when he goes into special mode: he'll have less time. Also when in that special mode: The object is to wait him out not attack him. He has a time limit at that point not a hp bar. Can your guy fly? If so after "killing" him, fly high away from him and wait him out after a couple rounds (shoot him with a bow if you can in the air) he'll run out of that ability and die.
RealSorceror 04-16-07, 02:01 PM	Maxed out fighter levels = 4 attacks, TWF alone is +1 attack, Speed weapons, + 1 attack each = 7 attacks. If you have Imrpoved & greater TWF I think that makes it up to 9 ... have to check ... Hmm, perhaps it is 9. I don't have the sheet on me. Still, I keel teh ting gud.
Cartigan 04-16-07, 02:42 PM	Would kneeling like that really work to break his code? If the rules are that you must fight to the death, how is it dishonorable to kill someone just for being stupid? "I stabbed you once, so now I win. This is my code, so it must be right."...if I was DM, I would declare the knight can kick you right in the head for that, and not lose his abilities for it. The problem is pitting the Samurai Code vs the Knight code. Samurai code is you have to fight to the death, Knight is you can't fight an unprepared opponent. The Samurai code forces you to fight or lose Samurai abilities. If he doesn't have Improved Unarmed, kick his ass every time he tries to attack you without a weapon.
Crystalforged 04-16-07, 02:56 PM	Maxed out fighter levels = 4 attacks, TWF alone is +1 attack, Speed weapons, + 1 attack each = 7 attacks. If you have Imrpoved & greater TWF I think that makes it up to 9 ... have to check ... They're Epic Levels, the Perfect Two Weapon Fighting Epic Feat which will give him a fourth attack with the off hand for a total of 10.
johnkretzer 04-16-07, 03:11 PM	Find a away to hit him with a disintegrate effect...even if he makes his save he is still gone because he is below zero HP. Works great against Frenzied Berserkers too. As to how I am sure a 35 th level character cann find someway to do so.
Grod_The_Giant 04-16-07, 03:17 PM	disintigrate is good... You could also try disarming him and becoming intangible somehow, if you can afford it. you can try claiming victory when he needs to start using his Hero Never Falls ability fly
Krusk 04-16-07, 03:19 PM	i love knights, i built one quite similar to this one by the sounds of it in a level 20~ game. Mine was essentially immune to anything requiring a willsave dc26 or less. pretty fun. Best stratigy i say would be to "kill" him and then find a way to go greater invis. or continure to trip him everytime he attempts to come near you. or gate something huge in and have it sit on him. You can afford to buy a item of gate 2/day at your level.
Tempest Stormwind 04-16-07, 03:50 PM	Would kneeling like that really work to break his code? If the rules are that you must fight to the death, how is it dishonorable to kill someone just for being stupid? "I stabbed you once, so now I win. This is my code, so it must be right."...if I was DM, I would declare the knight can kick you right in the head for that, and not lose his abilities for it. I'm still AFB, but the idea is as follows: The samurai attacks him and probably wins (Oriental Adventures samurai can dish out utterly INSANE damage on an iaijutsu strike if they're built for it, especially with the Epic Iaijutsu Focus feat), forcing the knight to use his challenges to stay alive. The samurai recognizes that his foe is desperate and essentially defeated; to continue to fight a foe after you have already won is dishonorable, and a samurai always chooses death before dishonor. Thus, he ceases fighting, and verbally requests his worthy adversary to accept his fate and die with the dignity and respect that he deserves. It's not a first-blood duel. The samurai recognizes that the knight only continues to move because he refuses to die. To the samurai, this is an alien mode of thinking -- death comes before dishonor, and the knight has already been defeated in battle yet refuses to accept his death. Thus, the only honorable thing to do is to cease fighting -- and in doing so he forces the knight to fight dishonorably, which saps his confidence and assures the samurai even moreso of his victory. You do NOT do this before he starts using A Hero Never Falls, though. To give up the fight before it is over is, of couse, surrender, and to surrender is to accept death to a samurai. I believe the knight's challenge ability's uses per day is based off of Charisma as well, though as I've said, I'm AFB. This means that you should undoubtedly find some way to deal Charisma damage to him, cutting his reserve of Knight's Challenge uses even before he enters desperation mode.
SirCaran 04-16-07, 04:57 PM	Would a Knight really be fighting in an arena for sport anyway?
Tempest Stormwind 04-16-07, 05:23 PM	Would a Knight really be fighting in an arena for sport anyway? Tournaments, jousting, and whatnot, just from a more brutal society. No one says that all knights have to be like medieval ones from societies that shun killing. I'm back with my books, and I can see that the knight cannot strike a flat-footed foe without losing a challenge use, nor can he deal lethal damage to a helpless one. I would suggest seeing if you can willingly render yourself flat-footed, as if you're helpless, he can try a coup de grace on you and it'll only cost him one use of his knight's challenge. It's also based on Charisma. Thus, any method of Charisma damage can help. The best I know of would be Feeblemind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm) or Ego Whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm). Do note that a charisma PENALTY won't apply due to the phrasing of the ability -- thus, he will have at most ten uses of his challenge to go through (which assumes he isn't spending any on things like Bond of Loyalty -- do note that this ability might cancel Feeblemind but won't defeat Ego Whip). If he's spending two per round (one to survive and one to hit you), and cannot kill you in less than five rounds, you have won this fight.
Cartigan 04-16-07, 06:05 PM	I don't have the book with me, but I'm pretty sure a Coup De Gras would cost you your Knight abilities because it is a gross violation of the Honor Code.
Tempest Stormwind 04-16-07, 06:29 PM	I don't have the book with me, but I'm pretty sure a Coup De Gras would cost you your Knight abilities because it is a gross violation of the Honor Code.True, he would lose one use of his Knight's Challenge for trying a coup de grace on you, but you'd be dead. That sort of defeats the purpose. Go and reread the knight. It's not a paladin clone; it doesn't lose its class features if it breaks its code, even grossly. That said, even if it did, inviting a coup de grace isn't exactly wise -- he loses his abilities, you lose your life. This isn't a weak knight we're talking about here. As such, simply rendering yourself flat-footed after you have critically wounded him is enough to cut his time remaining in half. One other note, by the way: If he somehow heals himself, I should note that the kneel is a standard starting stance for an iaijutsu strike. This lets you lash out at him if he tries to heal himself, decrying him as a coward. Pure fluff, of course, but oh so stylish. (The only way to completly deny the knight his abilities is if he changes alignment from Lawful, and even then it only costs him his Knight's Challenge capabilities, not his other class features.)
RealSorceror 04-17-07, 12:01 PM	Hmm, perhaps it is 9. I don't have the sheet on me. Still, I keel teh ting gud. Nope, I checked, it really is 10 attacks. I'm using Togashi's Technique, as well as Slashing Flurry. btw, If I use Slashing Flurry with Two-Weapon Pounce, do I get an extra attack with both weapons or just my primary? Slashing Flurry simply says I get an extra attack whenever I attack with a slashing weapon as a standard action. Two-Weapon Pounce allows me to attack with both my weapons after a charge. Seems like they should work together.
RealSorceror 04-17-07, 12:05 PM	Would a Knight really be fighting in an arena for sport anyway? I don't know his alignment. He could be Lawful Evil or something. Its not apparent from how he roleplays. Also, the owner of the arena is a greater god. Even at this level, its not prudent to refuse.
Karish 04-17-07, 12:14 PM	Called shot a strike and cut his arms and legs off. Stab him until he's dead. In my campaigns, if you do called shot and critical hit, you get the effect. Anything that isn't insta kill being allowed, of course. Hope you can convince your DM the same. ...I've killed many a bad guy using a keen scimitar and called shots to hack their limbs away.
Ikyotojin 04-17-07, 12:19 PM	Historical samurai would not be above using a tactic that worked if the previous ones did not. "Honor does not mean stupid." ;) Hit him with acid. Glue his feet place with some magical glue. Buy a magic item that will give you a wall of force that lasts long enough for him to drop dead after you cut him into so many ribbons he looks like a walking plate of pasta and tomato sauce. Decapitations and severing of limbs outright was fairly common in real combat. If the DM doesn't know this, then you are dealing with people who would rather make gods than characters. Personally I think arena duels between PC's are only done when an evil force MAKES them fight and they should really be working together to screw it up - refuse to fight and when the guards come in to try to force the issue, take them apart. THEN go after the head guy and rule the city yourself and bring honor and civility to the city! THAT is what a Samurai and a Knight would do!
ShadowDragon8685 04-17-07, 12:56 PM	Except it's a Greater God, not a city-state lordling. There is only one honorable soloution for this, Mr. Samurai. Iajatsu Strike the unholy crap out of him - basically put him in the mode where he dies when his time expires. Then kneel down, cut your own gut, and your Knight friend chops your head off - classic honorable way out. The the Knight sits down beside you, and uses his remaining time to pen a short letter of something relavent, before slumping dead beside his friend.
RealSorceror 04-17-07, 02:57 PM	Well, heres what I've gotted planned thus far. I'm an absolute bonus feat *****, with levels in OA Samurai, Fighter, Psychic Warrior, and a UA Rogue variant that gives me feats instead of Sneak Attack. Basically I've got 34 fighter bonus feats. With all that L33T craziness, I think I can kill him in my initial attack before its even his first turn. I also have Karmic Strike and Combat Reflexes, so I'm almost positive I can kill him within the first round. Hows this sound? I manifest Hustle to move toward him and still be able to full attack. Then I Iajutsu Focus, coupled with a smite attack and an ability that lets me sacrifice hit points to deal extra damage (Hida's Rage). Then use Strike at the Tail, which allows me make a "free" disarm attempt(only if successful) and continue with my full attack, adding two extra attacks with Slashing Flurry and Tread on the Blade, all the while continuing to use Hida's Rage, and finnish off with Two-Weapon Rend. All that is legal, right? That should kill him. If not, I'll Karmic Strike his attacks and "kill" him next round. If he activates his ability (which he should have to by now), I'll just find some way to break his code, or I'll disarm all his weapons and play keep away.
kelvinaw273 04-17-07, 04:41 PM	Declare that he is not your enemy and refuse to fight him. If you refuse to draw your sword, what can he do? Anything he does to provoke you dishonors him instead ... Then when you have decided that you are both honorable men, go for beer and pretzels.