Post/Author/DateTime	Post
beenyboboo601 10-21-07, 09:09 PM	what would be the best stragity to destroy an huge elf city. with little magic help.
Igfig 10-21-07, 09:35 PM	Can you give us a few more details? What's the city made of? How big is it? What kind of defenses do they have? What are your resources? Why do you need to do it in the first place? That said, fire is often a good choice.
happy_fuzzy 10-21-07, 09:45 PM	call up your drow buddies and ask a favor
happy_fuzzy 10-21-07, 09:45 PM	EDIT: double post
beenyboboo601 10-21-07, 10:00 PM	THE FOREST IS ABOUT THE SIZE OF TEXAS, THEIR IS 1 MAJOR CITY AND 4 SMALL TO MED SIZE CITYS. IT IS THE LARGES ELF CITY IN OUR WORLD. ALL WE HAVE IS ABOUT 10000 HUMNOIDS FROM 4000 GOBLINES TO 20 HILL GIANT. RAN BY A PC HUMAN WIZARD THAT IS ABOUT 16 LEVEL. AND THEN THEIR IS ME, A 16 7'4 500 LBS HUMAN VAMPIRE. AND A 14 LEVEL ELF ARCHER. WHO IS A PC ALSO, THE COOL THING ABOUT MY GUY IS THAT IS IS ALOT STRONGER THAN A NORMAL VAMPIRE BUT I CANT MAKE SPAWNS OR CHARM, BUT WITH THIS COOL ITEM I AM PROTECTED FORM SUNLIGHT :)
taradusis 10-21-07, 10:11 PM	The Elves probably have more magic-users than you.Consider a device that causes earthquakes.Consider getting aid of a "BIG DOG",AKA Dragon,Chimera or Sphinx?
beenyboboo601 10-21-07, 10:18 PM	ok earthquakes... some dragons any thing else...ohh no drows
Novabomb 10-21-07, 10:23 PM	The locate city bomb seems to be the perfect thing here.
Radiun 10-21-07, 10:47 PM	How much time do you have to destroy the cities? A charismatic character inciting war between the cities can do a lot to make your job easier, though this would by no means be the short way however. Edit: Small typo
Naze 10-21-07, 11:00 PM	Naze's Guide To Assaulting An Enemy City Or Fortification: Team Evil Edition A step-by-step guide for evil doers and warlords alike to successfully conquer bastions of good. Chapter 1 Requirements: 1. A detailed layout of enemy territory, fortifications, patrol paths, and distribution of forces and magical capabilities. A description of their city, a map with key points (rivers, plateaus, ect.), and information on thier largest individual threats (ie: heroes). Detail is key, and everything is important. If a drain exists, it needs to be known about; if a boulder exists, it needs to be known about; if there is even a single brick out of place on the wall of thier city, it needs to be known about. 2. A) A detailed layout of our forces: distribution of divisions (infantry, archers, cavalry (light, heavy, and mounted archers), spearmen, chariots, ect.), reaction times, speeds, and formations. B) A detailed list of our seige capabilities, if any (catapults, ballistae, trebuchets, batterning rams, seige towers, ladders). C) A detailed list of all the capabilites of each hero or leader on our side. D) A detailed list of what magic there is available to us. 3. A ring of teleportation. Chapter 2 Guidelines To Success: 1. Asess the situation. Look over ever detail, every placement, and adjust the distribution of your forces accordingly to compensate. 2. Do NOT exploit all weaknesses. Start with the largest, and least likely to be countered against. However, make certain to hold backups in case the first fails; if the first fails, have the next two largest ready to be exploited simultaneously. 3. Never overcommitt. Know when to pull back, and always, ALWAYS have at least two countermoves planned in the event of ANY possible move they make to your advances. This way, if they develop a counter to a particular line of attack, then you will have two different ways to overcome that counter. 4. Be flexible. Think two moves ahead, and plan a new set each time you make a move. Even the slightest thing; something as simple as adjusting your archers two feet back, or as drastic as pulling your seige entirely from the east front to the west, counts as a move, and must be incorperated into your plan immediately. 5. Do not expose your heroes to threats, but do not appear cowardly to the enemy. Give your forces a sense of confidence and boost their moral, but do not place yourself directly in harm's way. Elves and traditionally the good guys, and good guys like to bash the bad guys about how their leaders are cowards and stay in the back lines. Don't give them that satisfaction, but don't let yourself be killed in the process. Also, use that to your advantage: kill their leaders and heroes at the best - not the soonest - oppertunity. The less leaders and role models, the weaker the moral and the strength of the pack. 6. Be merciful to them, so if you lose, they will be merciful to you. Don't betray battlefeild honor until you are SURE you have won already. 7. In the event that you do lose, call an organized retreat, and salvage as many troops as you can. Throughout the course of the battle, you should have been doing your best to keep your numbers high anyway. Your soldiers are NOT always expendable. 8. That ring of teleportation is in case you're in a jam. If you are about to die, use it and run far, far away. 9. Very few plans of battle survive the first engagement with the enemy. Remember that, and abide by Rule 4 for this expressed reason. Good luck with the slaughter and mayhem! Author's Note: It's hard to have a plan of battle without specifics toward the requirements I listed; intelligence is the first priority before engagement. The guidelines are general rules of thumb to be followed, whatever the situation or type of assault. However, while villains normally have overwhelming numbers and throw away thier forces casually, the goodies often use heroics, brave speeches, and feats of valiance to win out over the odds. That is precisely why, to be a successful evildoer, one must not abide by such stereotypes. Use brave speeches, conserve your forces, treat your troops as though you actually need every last one of them during the battle. After the day is won, there will be plenty of time to desecrate corpses and repress your subjects. Evil is a dirty job, and some of us just love to do it. Love, Naze ___________________________________ © Tomes Of Evil Inc, 2007-2008. Not for resale.
Mejdrich 10-21-07, 11:04 PM	First, press the "caps lock" key. Thanks. Second, buy longbows for all 4,000 of your goblins. Attack at night, slaughtering everyone you can find, and then retreat back to your 10,000 army for safety during the day. You should be able to kill them all this way. Don't believe me? Remember. Elves have low-light vision, goblins have darkvision. Even with low-light vision, the elves can't see your goblins past 120' (even with a hooded lantern). That's a -2 to hit with a longbow and the elves cannot attack back. What are they going to do, throw torches, and burn down the forest? Charge blindly into the woods? By the time they cover the 120' to find your goblins, they will be dead. If the elves are really stupid and put out their lanterns, the goblins sneak up to 60' and continue the slaughter.
beenyboboo601 10-21-07, 11:16 PM	i have all the time in the world
JulesCARV 10-21-07, 11:19 PM	Given the generally weak constitutions elves have, use of poisons (poisoning wells and such) and diseases (spreading plagues) is likely to be slightly more effective against elves than against, say, humans.
Igfig 10-21-07, 11:43 PM	The best use of your wizard is going to be large, universal effects. Control weather will be a godsend, since you can send a number of tornadoes to ravage their city. Sympathy and antipathy are useful for messing with their troops and can easily lead their soldiers into traps or cause them to flee at opportune moments. Symbols of Insanity dropped into their midst are wonderful ways to cause dissent and lower morale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html). Illusions can screw with their minds like mad. Scry-and-die tactics can take out any leader, anywhere. A scroll of storm of vengeance or gate can potentially destroy the entire city on its own. Don't neglect defence, either. Dimensional lock, screen, and mind blank prevent scry-and-die on yourselves. Various wall spells can be wonderful for gaining momentary respite from battle. Rememebr, though: they're elves. They probably have lots of wizards of their own. Be on your guard against Dispel Magic. Move fast with your casting. Keep them off balance. Never let them know where you'll strike next. Really, the thing to remember is that an enemy defeated in mind is defeated in battle. If you can demoralize them, cause shortages, sow dissent, spark rebellion, you can destroy their entire city without losing a single soldier.
Mock26 10-21-07, 11:49 PM	Fire. Give every single soldier in your army 30 torches. Spread out your army. Each soldier lights two torches. Start marching. Throw one torch. March some more. Light another torch and throw that one. March some more. Light another torch and throw that one. March some more. Get the idea? If you start enough fires the elves won't be able to do anything about it, or they'll be spread so thin trying to fight so many fires that you'll be able to mass your troops and pick them off.
metalmayhem80110 10-22-07, 04:02 AM	I'm a personal fan of the disease/poison in the wells. I'd almost just infect your goblins and have them run through the elf city to spread the disease :P
archerpwr 10-22-07, 01:47 PM	The locate city bomb seems to be the perfect thing here. +1. Cast it twice to make sure it worked.
High Octane 10-22-07, 02:15 PM	They're ELVES. Sneeze on it. Also you can ruin the city by ruining supply lines. For example, stop all mascara and lipstick and rouge (not the thief) from entering the city. The elves will be too embarrassed to exit their homes and thus you can just set fire to them all.
LCD2YOU 10-22-07, 02:44 PM	1: Weed Whacker 2: Round Uptm 3: Replace their fine Brandies and Wines with Orcish grog and Dwaren Ale
bomaz 10-22-07, 02:59 PM	+1. Cast it twice to make sure it worked. There s also apocalypse from the sky. Use widen spell with that and it should kill every non lvled elf. (it is however not as wonderfull as locate cityx2)
Amon_V 10-22-07, 03:02 PM	1. Build a better one right next to it. 2. ???? 3. Profit!
archerpwr 10-22-07, 05:29 PM	There s also apocalypse from the sky. Use widen spell with that and it should kill every non lvled elf. (it is however not as wonderfull as locate cityx2) Yeah, but AftS is *really* hard to cast. Only dweomerkeepers can really pull it off.
Tempest Stormwind 10-22-07, 06:22 PM	The thorough solution: If violence isn't the answer, you didn't use enough. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=864104) Also, while caps lock may be cruise control for cool, even with cruise control you still have to steer.
Mock26 10-22-07, 06:25 PM	How about a combination of torching as much of the woods as possible and poisoning of their water supply?
Black Kitten 10-24-07, 06:05 AM	Take roughly 300 highlevel elven clerics and wizards and send them to pray for the downfall of the city. With any luck, Corellon changes them all into Drow... Hey I know it worked once!
DonThelonious 10-24-07, 06:49 AM	The thorough solution: If violence isn't the answer, you didn't use enough. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=864104) Also, while caps lock may be cruise control for cool, even with cruise control you still have to steer. Oh. My. Effing. God. :eek: That was the most brilliant BBEG I have ever read about. His attantion to detail was simply... staggering. I am both awed and disgusted. I.. I think I need a tissue... It was so beautiful...:weep:
Leo 10-24-07, 07:04 AM	For god's sake you have a 16th level wizard. That should be enough with some work. The easy way:spells with huge range. Like fireball. I don't care what people say about it, it's still a good spell. Turn invisible and nuke the cities from far away, killing peasants by the hundreds. Have your archer buddy with you sniping anyone who doesn't fall with the fire. Keep moving. Have your troops hidden with ranged weapons. When the enemy gets out of the city to try to get you shoot them also. If they don't get out just keep shooting stuff untill nothing stands inside the city. Kill kill kill. The crazy way:find any demonic force who is willing to lend you some uber power in return for 10000 sacrfices. The slow but efecient way:hit and run attacks in the farms and unprotected places. Put the region into a state of fear while crippling their economy. Meanwhile dig tunnels below the cities. Make all the tunnels suports of wood. When the entire soil is digged up burn the suports. Tunnels colapse. City colapses. Loot and profit.
Radijs 10-24-07, 07:53 AM	If you outnumber the troops in the city but not by a large amount (say 3 or 4 to 1) you can opt for a siege. Cut off supplies and starve the city. Then they only get the choice of starving or trying to dislodge you. This will give you the advantage that you can fortify your position which means you will suddenly have that advantage instead of them. And if they where stupid they will already have weakened from hunger.
Phrennzy 10-24-07, 11:54 AM	Simple. 1. Create spell to make the elves' skin black and hair white while they sleep. 2. Wait for morning. 3. Yell, "The drow are invading!" 4. Sit back and enjoy carnage.
Voran 10-24-07, 06:48 PM	I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. /apologizes. /not really
Mock26 10-24-07, 07:24 PM	I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. /apologizes. /not really This is a multi-million dollar installation, okay? He can't make that kind of decision, he's just a grunt! Ah, no offense. (Wait a minute, didn't we already have this conversation in another thread?)
Sezarious 10-24-07, 08:18 PM	I Still like the burning idea myself. When all the elves are sleeping too. You should do it from the inside out, getting your troops as close to the city as they'd dare and then spread out. If they surround everything and spread out, no matter which way the wind is blowing, everything will get burnt. Colect your troops and patrol around the burning to stop people escaping, then go in at night using the bow and arrow tactic mentioned before. 1. Giant ring of fire 2. Prevent all escape 3. march in to find that everyones dead.
Voran 10-24-07, 08:27 PM	This is a multi-million dollar installation, okay? He can't make that kind of decision, he's just a grunt! Ah, no offense. (Wait a minute, didn't we already have this conversation in another thread?) How to whack a black dragon :) Though nuking appears to have lost in favor of halfling-baiting.
Moosh Nailo 10-24-07, 08:30 PM	Hit them with a moon.
Naze 10-24-07, 08:43 PM	Simple. 1. Create spell to make the elves' skin black and hair white while they sleep. 2. Wait for morning. 3. Yell, "The drow are invading!" 4. Sit back and enjoy carnage. Alter Person, Mass Transmutation Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 6 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One humanoid creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell functions like Alter Person, only it affects multiple humanoid creatures. Likewise, Alter Person functions like Alter Self, only with the difference of 'person' and 'self'.
trapspringer 10-24-07, 09:04 PM	The thorough solution: If violence isn't the answer, you didn't use enough. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=864104) Also, while caps lock may be cruise control for cool, even with cruise control you still have to steer. That post was made of epic and win.
Naze 10-24-07, 09:13 PM	I Still like the burning idea myself. When all the elves are sleeping too. You should do it from the inside out, getting your troops as close to the city as they'd dare and then spread out. If they surround everything and spread out, no matter which way the wind is blowing, everything will get burnt. Colect your troops and patrol around the burning to stop people escaping, then go in at night using the bow and arrow tactic mentioned before. 1. Giant ring of fire 2. Prevent all escape 3. march in to find that everyones dead. There are still senties at night: they will see torches in the distance. Control weather. Bloody hell, even Cone Of Cold and Create Water. Or better yet: buckets. Lots of buckets, while the archers cover the fire-outers from behind. Conversely, by stemming the flow and not putting it out entirely, the fire screen can provide excellent cover for entire archer squadrons to pick off your forces while they spread out and encircle the perimiter of the blaze. 1. Elves may like trees, but they're not going to panic and run around screaming when there's a fire, especially if they have good leadership. A giant ring of fire only provides good cover, and can easily be stemmed if you're controlling it like you mentioned, and they have a goodly number of magic users. Or ... you know, buckets. 2. They're not trying to 'escape'. If you're trying to burn down thier fortress, they're going to fight to the end. They'll pommell you with thier archers using cover of the fire screen while you still scramble to spread your forces thin to cover a wide perimeter. 3. March in to find ... half of your forces dead, and a large number of elves still inside, who have wisely rotated thier front line archers, fighters, firefighters, clerics, and wizards. In short, you'll end up with a bloody battle dangerously close to the city walls, and since your ring of fire has derailed any chance of effectively bringing your seige engines within closing distance in time, you're going to be flattened by elven ballistae, catapults, and archers from the walls, quashing your chances at an effective attack. By the time your seige reaches closing distance, your forces will have been stretched too thin to cover for them. The elven defensive-artillery will demolish your approaching towers and catapults, while the elven infantry and archers will continue to push your infanty and archers back, since all they have before them is a wall, and all they have behind them is scorched earth. Outpositioned, outmatched, and with no cover, the chances of actually managing to successfully sacking the city drop astronomically. (PS: Sorry if I come off as snappy, arrogant, smug, or snide. I just get really excited and intense when it comes to strategy (yes ... I started out playing chess when I was about seven :P).)
Mock26 10-24-07, 09:17 PM	Bombs! They will be expensive and you will need a lot of flying units, but bomb them to the astral plane! Here's my Elf City Bomb prototype: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/Mock26/ElfBomb.jpg It is a simply hollow tube with a partially open portable hole suspended at one end of the tube. There is a cone with a giant plunger on it which is held in place with a wax seal. The cone is weighted and on the inside there is a rod with a bag of holding attached to the end. Fly a whole bunch of these over the city and drop! The weighted cone end will strike the ground, breaking the wax seal, and the bag of holding is shoved into the portable hole. This will result in a 20' diameter rift to the astral plane. You could do some serious damage with bombs such as this! But, like I said, it would be expensive and requires flying units.
snakeman830 10-24-07, 09:20 PM	While I Totally agree with Tempest's post, my suggestion is inspired by real-world events. 1. Use Control Weather for a long time beforehand, creating a drought and drying things out. Make sure it's really dry. 2. Go to one end of the drought zone. 3. Cast Control Weather (or Winds, it doesn't matter here) to make very strong winds blowing twoard the city from your end of the drought zone. 4. Cast Wall of Fire, with the energy emanating away from you (twoard the city) 5. Watch it all burn. 6. ??? 7. Profit! 8. Have a big barbecue with your army to celebrate (you've got all that elf flesh that's pre-cooked, why let it go to waste?) Alternatively, if the elves stop your wall of Fire, just get a bunch of alchemist's fire on a big flying amount and strafe-bomb the place. The key to this one is that it is absolutely massive. The elves couldn't hope to put out all of it, even with their spells. To make it worse for them, be sure to dump oil on the area beforehand. That way, water will just spread the fire instead of extinguishing it. It will also make the fire spread faster. You also won't lose a single soldier if this is done properly. That way, you can always move in for one of the other methods if some elves survive. EDIT: Just realized, those high winds would be forcing some decent concentration checks, not exactly an elf's strong suit. So you've hampered their spellcasting as well. Another option is to throw a bunch of Cloudkills at the city (try extending and widening them). This will certinatly weaken their forces, killing all that get caught in the area (let's face it, the Con damage will easily kill them).
Naze 10-24-07, 09:49 PM	Playing devil's advocate again: Assuming the fire wall is not put out: the elves withdraw fully within the walls of the city, and use the tightened perimiter to push back the fire with more conventional means (yes, the buckets) as it reaches the walls, dousing them to reduce flammibility, while using the cover to attack any approaching infanty or seige engines. From behind the winds, the cover of the walls lessens the effects of the high wind (thus lessening the heavy concentration checks). Control Weather is back on the table. At this point, the elves can choose two effects: create stronger winds to push the fire in the opposite direction (it was stipulated by the original poster that your forces are using minimal magic), or create a rainstorm to neutralize the blaze. Alternately, the alchemist-fire loaded mount can be countered easily. Since the battle, thus far, has taken place almost soley on the ground, anything large enough to carry a volume of alchemist-fire sufficient to effectively carpet-bomb the elves will be sighted quite a way off. Either high winds or rain from the Control Weather spell(s) will hamper the creature's ability to fly; even moreso if lighting is involved in the storm. Against such a creature, the following may be brought to bear: Arrows Spells (albiet at a limited capacity) Ballistae Hopefully, the beast will die and crash before it reaches the city. If not, when it dies and crashes anyway, the damage will be minimalized and centralized; far easier to contain than the affects of a carpet-bomb. Alchemist fire can also be smothered or magically put out. I'd trust that the elves are smart enough to recognise alchemist fire for what it is. As for the Cloudkill: ... counterspell?
Igfig 10-25-07, 12:06 AM	The crux of the matter seems to be that your magic will be countered by their stronger magic, and your nonmagical effects will usually be countered by a similar amount of nonmagical effects. Small-scale nonmagical effects (like poisoning a well) can actually be countered by magic as well. They have greater numbers than you, so it's likely that they'll be able to beat you if you go against them pound-for-pound. I see two ways of dealing with this: 1: nonmagical effects that grow, and 2: killing wizards. #1: The principle of the first one is to set a number of things in motion that will increase in magnitude on their own, without supervision. If you can start one every X rounds, and each effect increases itself 100% in X rounds, you have an exponential increase that should, if given enough time, be unstoppable. The simplest example of this is fire, of course. The problem with fire is that its rate of increase will never be fast enough to beat the control weather to the punch. A potentially better method would be spawning undead, such as shadows or bleakborn. The former are hard to catch, since they can get in and around through the underground, while the second are effectively immortal if you can work out some way to deal them a few fire damage every round, forever. Their numbers will grow as the elves' decrease, which is excellent; you will have to watch out for clerics, though. Another useful tactic is to breed some half-troll pseudonatural black puddings (which amusingly count as Giants), perhaps with another template that makes them more resistant to bludgeoning weapons. These babies can duplicate all day long, healing up after every split. Teleport a few of them, along with some acid-immune goblins with knives, into a hundred basements across the city and let them start splitting. Soon you'll have hundreds of pudding fountains springing up all over the place. #2: If you kill their spellcasters, you can take them apart at your leisure. Start with the high-level clerics (to prevent raise dead), then the high-level mages. Work your way down from there. It's not easy to kill a large quantity of spellcasters quickly, but the best tactic is generally surprise. As for the actual kill-method, I suggest something cheesy like a jovoc-bomb. Binding nabassaus or dogais might also work, since you can get them to teleport into a temple or tower and kill somebody very fast with surprise. Any scry-and-die technique is good, really, unless of course they have protections set up against that sort of thing (as suggested in my last post). I'll discuss this in a later post. Oh yeah, and don't forget to mess with their morale, too. Always important.
trapspringer 10-25-07, 02:56 AM	http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/Mock26/ElfBomb.jpg Uh-oh. Ok, so you've got all these troops, right? Hire 'em out at their wage per day (like 4 silver). Buy some 'a those thingies.
Tempest Stormwind 10-25-07, 11:46 AM	Re: The astral rifts. They're elves. Favored class Wizard. As in, someone can cast plane shift. And if we're in FR, you will probably have at least two who can cast gate. The astral rifts from portable holes and bags of holding don't kill anything. They just dump it in the astral plane, which is far from the least hospitable of planes out there.
KavonRa 10-25-07, 12:48 PM	okay there is alot of talk about fires and droughts but why not the opposite. Extreme Cold + "Siege" Use controle weather to make it snow, rain and freeze. Mostlikely you will catch them by surprise not being prepared for winter-conditions. Your army will have an entire forest to keep them warm and cozy. Meanwhile the little elves freeze to dead. If there is a river nearby, have catapults bombard the town with water! This will either make the town wet and it will become ice there or you have large icecubes to do structural damage. At night have your sneaky goblins throw water at the gates and walls if they are made of wood. This is ofcourse to weaken the defences. Add to this the following: Capture elven patrols and peasants from nearby villages and execute them on a daily basis infront of the gates and walls. Since there is alot of snow, defenders will see the blood very clear and thus adding to the moral-drop. Living in an icecold city under constant attack of water and ice barrages while being surounded by a huge pool of blood...sounds morbid dont you think? PS: since most of the water will freeze, they will have limited drinkable water sources. Poison those for some extra effect!
PhaedrusXY 10-25-07, 01:56 PM	Rebuke a Shadow, have it spawn a bunch more shadows and order them to obey you, and for them to order their spawn to obey you. Imprison the original Shadow (ala the 9th level spell). After collecting a few thousand shadows, open a Gate right into the middle of the city, and unleash them.
archerpwr 10-25-07, 03:50 PM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#tornado
Legdiwena 10-25-07, 04:09 PM	Summon lots of devils and let them loose
INeedNoSalt 10-25-07, 04:09 PM	Mass Elf to Stone.
Jarsallen 10-25-07, 04:34 PM	Oh, you could come at this problem straight ahead- bombing with infinite damage contraptions, sending dragons/undead/orcs, draught, fire, whippets... But lets get real here- summoning demons is costly, and while you are waiting around for your unholy host to march through the hole in the fabric of reality you have riven, you've got to find a place to put these things. Do you have any idea how hard it is to meet the needs of an idle Balor? The damn things just sit around all day eating (virgins), and it gets expensive. Not all genocidal maniacs are made of money, you know? So we need to be practical about this. Let's try coming at this sideways- You want to kill an city full of elves. Good on you, that's a noble ambition. But those elves, despite being a bunch of tree hugging hippies, are just chocked full of the magic and ancient warrior traditions and yadda yadda, etc, etc. They are ready for all the mundane venues of attack, so you have to come at them sideways. The solution? Two words my friends. Sentient. Termites. I know, you're thinking "Jarsallen! That's madness! Such creatures would leave the world a treeless barren rock! No one liked Dark Sun!" I say to you "Acceptable Losses". Remember to keep your eye on the prize. The steps are simple for a wizard of your intellect and capability. Five 'Wish' spells imparting +5 intellect on your insectoid minions and one wish spell making it heritable, and you've created yourself a species (If you are willing to push the issue, try +5 to all stats. Rightfully introduce yourself as their God, and inform them of the cruel elven monsters that want to deny all termites the right to eat trees everywhere. Promise them a glorious future where every termite has a full belly- A future without elves! Now that you have created a religion based on a zealous hatred of those foul tree-loving elves, you just have to sit back and watch your army multiply- Orcs may breed like rabbits, but termites breed like...well, termites. 2 billion sentient micro-minions later, you've got your army. Now all you need to do is let them loose. Send them on a holy war to eradicate the elves. At first they won't know what hit them, as who expects sentient termites, right? Then, as their city slowly collapses all around them despite all of the termite traps that should have worked (and would have, if your army was not so damned clever!) they realize finally their doom. Too late my friends. Too late. Game over. As the elven society crumbles, filled with pointy-eared gits that are now homeless and pathetically clinging to the hollowed out trees that once were the proud supports of their metropolis, you hover overhead and gloat. At this point the planet is largely doomed to become a scorched and barren wasteland as lands without trees are slowly consumed by the ever expanding deserts. Like a plague these self-aware insects, unfettered by the traditional checks on expansion that nature had employed for millenia, will spread and spread. Entire species will die from starvation and exposure, and your actions will likely lead to the extinction not only of all elves, but all life on your planet. Just remember- it was totally worth it...
Mock26 10-25-07, 04:55 PM	Re: The astral rifts. They're elves. Favored class Wizard. As in, someone can cast plane shift. And if we're in FR, you will probably have at least two who can cast gate. The astral rifts from portable holes and bags of holding don't kill anything. They just dump it in the astral plane, which is far from the least hospitable of planes out there. True, but it can be very disruptive! And, if you're just "banishing" regular troops and such to the astral plane hose wizards would still have to first locate them to bring them back. There is a chance that they all wouldn't be dumped onto the same location, either. Sure, everyone from the same astral bomb would probably be together, but who is to say where exactly on the astral plane two people hit by two seperate astral bombs would turn up? At the very least, though, an astral bomb like this could temporarily remove a serious threat long enough to do some good. While there will be wizards who can cast gate, there is no guarantee that they will have it memorized if they are going into combat. Also, everyone should remember this trick for their characters! It can be a very handy and effective (albeit expensive) means to get rid of a problem monster, NPC, or BBEG (or even a really annoying character!). My group, years ago, once used it to bypass the BBEG. He came back to fight us but while he was gone we were able to loot his treasure room and managed to acquire enough powerful magic items to defeat him, items that without we probably would have lost the battle! So while astral bombs are not letha, they can be very effective if used wisely.
Disciple_of_Salsa 10-25-07, 04:55 PM	Well, just looking at the words "kill" and "city", you could use the LOCATE CITY BOMB!!! Locate City is the most damaging spell in the game, so long as you have the right metamagic feats. Specifically, using the Snowcasting feat from Frostburn, apply Flash Frost, then Energy Substitution (Electric), then Born of the Three Thunders, then Explosive. Adds +3 effective spell levels, all creatures other than the caster within 10 miles/caster level have to make a Reflex save or move to the nearest point on the edge of the area, taking 1d6 damage per 10 feet traveled. When you consider most targets will be pushed several miles...
Lincoln Hills 10-25-07, 05:45 PM	The easiest way would be to seal up all the adits of their sewer system. Since elves are far, far too sophisticated to ever be plumbers, sewermen, clog-cleaners or drainriggers, the city will eventually overflow with gunge and gunk (you can help thing along with helpful applications of rain of frogs, wall of eeeew! and summon sludge or the assistance of a Thrall of Juiblex), forcing the inhabitants to flee out into the wilderness where you can dispatch them at your leisure. A similar method involving dirty laundry might also be applicable, although I suspect that elves are so fastidious that they don't have dirty laundry: soiled clothes are burnt and new replacements purchased. ;)
Naze 10-25-07, 06:51 PM	Oh, you could come at this problem straight ahead- bombing with infinite damage contraptions, sending dragons/undead/orcs, draught, fire, whippets... But lets get real here- summoning demons is costly, and while you are waiting around for your unholy host to march through the hole in the fabric of reality you have riven, you've got to find a place to put these things. Do you have any idea how hard it is to meet the needs of an idle Balor? The damn things just sit around all day eating (virgins), and it gets expensive. Not all genocidal maniacs are made of money, you know? So we need to be practical about this. Let's try coming at this sideways- You want to kill an city full of elves. Good on you, that's a noble ambition. But those elves, despite being a bunch of tree hugging hippies, are just chocked full of the magic and ancient warrior traditions and yadda yadda, etc, etc. They are ready for all the mundane venues of attack, so you have to come at them sideways. Again, what he said is pretty well true. Controlling weather, using extra-dimensional rifts to the astral plane, summoning devils, various other spells, and clogging sewers really are not good ways to destroy a city, especially considering the comparison between your level of magic use and theirs. The easiest way would be to seal up all the adits of their sewer system. Since elves are far, far too sophisticated to ever be plumbers, sewermen, clog-cleaners or drainriggers, the city will eventually overflow with gunge and gunk It's a city. Cities have sanitation (granted, in some periods in history city sanitation was sorely lax), and because the elves are as sophisticated as stated in the above quote, there would be a HUGE focus on cleanliness and sanitation. That means plumbers, sewermen, clog-cleaners, and yes, even drainriggers. It's simple logic: a society that prides themselves on sophistication, elegance, and beauty will take greater care of such things, else they would cease to be sophisticated, elegant, and beautiful, and just be dirty and wallowing in thier own waste.
Zanedor 10-26-07, 01:43 PM	From reading the other posts and thinking about it for a wile I've come up with my strategy. Note: this is assuming the elf cites have wooden buildings and are walled 1st you have 10 hill giants now you need to get some more another 10 or 15 would be nice. Give them axes and start cutting down trees for wood the forest is the size of Texas so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. As you're doing these steps and others start trying to get more troops (Preferably orcs for some stronger infantry) and a good amount of casters. While you're out get a magic item that wile let you communicate with your generals and each other (To lazy to look one up). Start using the trees you downed to make siege weapons preferably: towers, catapults and trebuchets, and some really BIG long bows for 10 of the hill giants (teach them how to use them) and BIG arrows to match. Make sure to leave lots of branches and leafs at the top of the arrows. let the leafy arrows dry in the sun for a good amount of time. Find a kobald mine and get metal from them... LOTS or metal. Make it into plates and cover your siege with them and make metal amour of the appropriate kinds for your troops (and really big breastplates and helms for the giants). If you can hire out a good amount of kobalds from that mine do it if not find some willing to join your army, put them to work digging a long, wide and sturdy tunnel to the city. Use boulders and thick trees to make big great clubs that can smash walls for your giants. Now get oil and other combustible materials and make flaming ammo for the catapults. make sure that your casters can cast Control Weather, Protection from fire and lots of fire spells. And enchant the siege towers so they won't burn (To lazy to look up the spell. the attack should be preluded by sending in squads of stealthy guys (PC's probably include) and start assassinating high level casters and fighters. get some strong fighters in the tunnel under the city. Get within range of the city and make big clearings in the forest around your siege weapons take the range of key structures down for aimng and some structures that you want left intact that you know have a basement (like your typical inn) and start burning the forest around the city. use control weather to fan the flames towards the walls, buff out arrows, and disrupt casting on the battlements. You should have huge pilers of flames now so load the chopped up trees you cut down to make the clearings on to the trebuchets and either filing them as is or light them on fire some how. use the catapults in a smiler manor but aim for the walls to. Get your giants with bows (which should have a very long range due to their size) to lite their arrows up and shoot them into the city lighting the wooden housing on fire and casing mass chaos. The elf's can't counter attack due to the burning forest in their way. As the forest fires start to die down Start to move in the towers and troops wile keeping up the fire attacks on the inside of the city. start getting your archers to fire flaming arrows over the walls and at people on the battlements. The high winds blowing towards the city will keep them from firing arrows out. Get your giants with stone clubs to start smashing the gate. Right before a wall goes down, the gate is smashed or the towers dock on the walls you your magical communication item to tell the sappers (who have per your instruction dug up to the basements of buildings you left intact) dig through the basement walls and let the fighters you have in the tunnels pore out into the city. This coupled with you troops out side the walls getting in should allow you to over run the city. This plan is still in the development stage and I'm aware it has some holes in it so your input on it would be nice. (Edit) I spent to much time writing there's a lot of stuff I didn't think of on the thread now.
Naze 10-27-07, 12:01 AM	Input in the form of devil's advocate: From reading the other posts and thinking about it for a wile I've come up with my strategy. Note: this is assuming the elf cites have wooden buildings and are walled 1st you have 10 hill giants now you need to get some more another 10 or 15 would be nice. Give them axes and start cutting down trees for wood the forest is the size of Texas so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Counter: The elves are finely in tuned with their forest, and someone cutting it down to build seige engines is a big, noticable deal. First comes mobilization, then direct guerilla tactics using superior familiarity with the terrain to force your tree-cutters kill them off or drive them away; archers and stealth mainly. City forces begin mobilizing a preparing for seige: magic users are grouped and ready themselves for most likely counters to magical attacks, regular watches set, likely points of attack assessed, and the city checked and re-checked for key points of interest. Wall of Force will be cast by multiple wizards over the walls with permanency cast as well, protecting the largest and most vulnerable target areas as possible of the wooden walls against damage from arrows, seige, and dispelling. As you're doing these steps and others start trying to get more troops (Preferably orcs for some stronger infantry) and a good amount of casters. While you're out get a magic item that wile let you communicate with your generals and each other (To lazy to look one up). Start using the trees you downed to make siege weapons preferably: towers, catapults and trebuchets, and some really BIG long bows for 10 of the hill giants (teach them how to use them) and BIG arrows to match. Make sure to leave lots of branches and leafs at the top of the arrows. let the leafy arrows dry in the sun for a good amount of time. Find a kobald mine and get metal from them... LOTS or metal. Make it into plates and cover your siege with them and make metal amour of the appropriate kinds for your troops (and really big breastplates and helms for the giants). If you can hire out a good amount of kobalds from that mine do it if not find some willing to join your army, put them to work digging a long, wide and sturdy tunnel to the city. Use boulders and thick trees to make big great clubs that can smash walls for your giants. Now get oil and other combustible materials and make flaming ammo for the catapults. make sure that your casters can cast Control Weather, Protection from fire and lots of fire spells. And enchant the siege towers so they won't burn (To lazy to look up the spell. Counter (continued): From the first signs of enemies desecrating the forest, the elves will move to the offensive while the quoted preparations are being made. With forces stretched thin recruiting, building, and tunnelling, the guerilla tactics of the elves will - though still not overly devastating - a serious thorn: increasing costs, threat potential, and slowing efforts considerably, not to mention weakening morale. Scouting parties travel in groups of five; hunting parties separate into groups of twenty-two, with adjustments based on scout readings. Mages attempt to scry and locate key points and weak sides to optimize attacks and maximize damage potential, while minimizing casualties. All clerics remain inside the city or at rally-points for the hunting parties and scount parties. the attack should be preluded by sending in squads of stealthy guys (PC's probably include) and start assassinating high level casters and fighters. get some strong fighters in the tunnel under the city. Counter: The is the most difficult for the elves to counter, depending on how much intelligence they managed to gather (they may or may not know of the tunnel, and as such, that should remain your ace-in-the-hole). However, because the elves are on thier guard, assasinations will become that much harder. Get within range of the city and make big clearings in the forest around your siege weapons take the range of key structures down for aimng and some structures that you want left intact that you know have a basement (like your typical inn) and start burning the forest around the city. use control weather to fan the flames towards the walls, buff out arrows, and disrupt casting on the battlements. Counter: The elves have been on the offensive since the preparation stage. The minute you begin advancing, they begin to dig in. As you attempt to make the clearings, the spellcasters will already be targeting the seige engines: Rock to Mud, and the seige engines will sink in, hampering movement; then Mud to Rock, sealing the seige engines in the ground for where they've sank. After immobilizing the seige engines, the elves drop back, letting go of thier rally-points, casting Cloudkill over each point as they drop back and have the Clerics Control Weather to push the clouds toward the oncoming force. The Force-Walls cast over the walls will protect them from normally devastating conventional attacks, and allow the casters to act more freely. By the time your casters have begun to use Control Weather, all it will serve to do is equalize the wind, causing the Cloudkill effects to progress normally, killing many that get caught in the path before the spells run thier course, or they're dispelled. You should have huge pilers of flames now so load the chopped up trees you cut down to make the clearings on to the trebuchets and either filing them as is or light them on fire some how. use the catapults in a smiler manor but aim for the walls to. Get your giants with bows (which should have a very long range due to their size) to lite their arrows up and shoot them into the city lighting the wooden housing on fire and casing mass chaos. The elf's can't counter attack due to the burning forest in their way. As the forest fires start to die down Start to move in the towers and troops wile keeping up the fire attacks on the inside of the city. start getting your archers to fire flaming arrows over the walls and at people on the battlements. The high winds blowing towards the city will keep them from firing arrows out. Get your giants with stone clubs to start smashing the gate. Right before a wall goes down, the gate is smashed or the towers dock on the walls you your magical communication item to tell the sappers (who have per your instruction dug up to the basements of buildings you left intact) dig through the basement walls and let the fighters you have in the tunnels pore out into the city. This coupled with you troops out side the walls getting in should allow you to over run the city. Counter: Most of the above will have already been countered; the giants will simply be attacked with arrows from the walls as they attept to assail the gates protected by Force-Wall. The elven casters will inevitably be focusing on both enemy spellcasters and any seige engines that were not previously disabled or immobilized. In short, the tunnel - your ace-in-the-hole - will be the scale tipper. With a poor front on the seige, and the elven infantry within the walls while archers and spellcasters hold the outer front. Insert bloody battle. With the advantage of height, half the spellcasters will turn to the tunnels, collapsing them with the same Rock to Mud/Mud to Rock combo; first making the tunnel entrances mud and thereby collapsing them, then resealing them by converting them back to rock. Mass Enlarge Person, Mass Bull's Strength to the front line infantry fighting inside the city to better repell the fighters from the tunnels (which should be swiftly collapsing). If the Force-Walls are dispelled (Disintegrate, mage’s disjunction), then the infantry halves: one half continues repelling tunnel-invaders and are joined by half the spellcasters from the walls, while the other half brace the gates and walls for attack. Spellcasters on walls elimiate first the seige, then the enemy spellcasters, then go to work on priority targets and protection of the archers and infanty. The archers' first priority are the giants, then the regular infanty, rather than striking at enemy archers. The reason, of course, being morale. The infantry will be closer than the archers, and thus easier targets, especially if they're covering the giants and any remaining seige engines. Closer, easier, more tightly packed targets means more kills. At this point it starts becoming a numbers game. If the archers pull up to attack the walls closer and the infantry pulls back, then the elven archers switch targets to attack the enemy archers, as do the spellcasters. The infanty brace the gates, and act as a response team. If one front needs help, they move and act on that front. First priority is removing those inside the city, but if the walls become hard-pressed, then the halved-infantry halves again: one group moving to the walls to cover against any seige towers and cover against enemy archers with thier seige; the other group braces the gates. If the outside front proves better than the inside front, the gate-infantry will break, opening the gate and sending a phalanx charge, covered by the archers and spellcasters. They will never advance past the range of the walls, and retreat within the gates once reaching jsut short of that point. Lather, rinse, repeat. This plan is still in the development stage and I'm aware it has some holes in it so your input on it would be nice. (Edit) I spent to much time writing there's a lot of stuff I didn't think of on the thread now. I like what you did there with the planning. The tunnel was a good idea, but the biggest hole, I found, was cutting down the trees to build your seige and bows. The moment the elves sense it, they go on the offensive, making the real key of the plan - the first step - fall apart. Preparing the materials beforehand is of huge importance; unless you have a major foothold already established, then I'd advise preparing outside the forest, or in another forest ... even with a foothold the elves will go on the offensive and make your plan shaky. Building things, especially seige engines, takes time; the more time they have to prepare, the worse for you. Catching them with as little warning as possible is your best first-weapon. God, I haven't had this much fun since grammar school.
Zanedor 10-27-07, 02:26 AM	:snip: Thank you for the input sadly it's too late at night for me to make a full blown response right now, but I'll give you a bit of my ideas that I've gathered together. It would seem that building siege and other preparations will have to be made else where a good distance from the forest and the wood brought from another forest. Any strike is going to have to be fast, hard, and undiscovered until the last moment before the attack, maybe causing a distraction like sending in a small stealthy party of goblins to start some forest fires off away from our attack corridor that are big enough to get them to send guys to put out. Also by the looks of it hiring units excelling in forest combat is a must. I'm going to be a bit busy for a wile but I'll keep developing attack plans. Man I love doing this!:w00t:
Sezarious 10-27-07, 02:55 AM	I've got to say, you people are geniuses. Another clear advantage this guy is going to get is simply all these ideas. So unless his DM has been following this thread, he will have a lot less counter measures. The tunnel idea is good and i'm assuming Goblins and Kobalds are fast diggers, so how long would it take to build a tunnel system under the city/ies since he has such a large force?:w00t:
Zanedor 10-27-07, 03:30 AM	I've got to say, you people are geniuses. Another clear advantage this guy is going to get is simply all these ideas. So unless his DM has been following this thread, he will have a lot less counter measures. The tunnel idea is good and i'm assuming Goblins and Kobalds are fast diggers, so how long would it take to build a tunnel system under the city/ies since he has such a large force?:w00t: Sapping takes time and goblins would have a hard time staying on track, Kobalds on the other hand are organized and mass diggers by nature that work tirelessly until a task is complete. My guess is that if you get them to start digging at the beginning of your preparations and start the tunnel in a cave or some thing a bit out from the forest by the time you're ready to attack they should be under the city.
Sezarious 10-27-07, 04:40 AM	You know, if his vampire character could still create spawns, he could have snuck in and taken over some key officials. And entrances to the city through basements could be secured by biting the building owners. Then, bite the high level mages when theyr'e sleeping (making sure you have your wizards help in breaking in safely). Command them to act as normal, to always memorise spells to disguise themselves, to take out other mages at night, and have them disguises themselves, and have the effect multiply. Now you have taken care of the mages and gained your own powerful magic inside support, use your imagination to do the rest.
Naze 10-27-07, 02:55 PM	THE FOREST IS ABOUT THE SIZE OF TEXAS, THEIR IS 1 MAJOR CITY AND 4 SMALL TO MED SIZE CITYS. IT IS THE LARGES ELF CITY IN OUR WORLD. ALL WE HAVE IS ABOUT 10000 HUMNOIDS FROM 4000 GOBLINES TO 20 HILL GIANT. RAN BY A PC HUMAN WIZARD THAT IS ABOUT 16 LEVEL. AND THEN THEIR IS ME, A 16 7'4 500 LBS HUMAN VAMPIRE. AND A 14 LEVEL ELF ARCHER. WHO IS A PC ALSO, THE COOL THING ABOUT MY GUY IS THAT IS IS ALOT STRONGER THAN A NORMAL VAMPIRE BUT I CANT MAKE SPAWNS OR CHARM, BUT WITH THIS COOL ITEM I AM PROTECTED FORM SUNLIGHT :) Anyway, there you have it: no spawns. The tunnel idea, in my opinion, still stands at the best, but it should be a reserve in case the seige goes sour, or you need a quick fix or finishing move. Also, create more than one tunnel: three at most, to come out at different points at the city. This way, the chances of the elves collapsing all three swiftly enough decrease dramatically, and it will force them to spread out to destroy them. This means that the gates have less to brace them and the walls have less defenders. Out of the PCs, send the vampire and 14th level elf archer into the tunnels, and send them with the first wave. That way, if they're caught in a tunnel that is hit first, they'll be outside before it collapses. Then, as PCs, they can go about the city playing cat-mouse, hit-and-run, and all those other jolly games that PCs are good at doing; killing high level mages, destroying gate mechanisms, assasinating leaders. Keep the ma Keep the 16th level human wizard outside to direct the seige. If this is the largest elven city in the world, and there are four other, smaller cities around it in this forest-the-size-of-Texas, something tells me that a little more than 14 020 troops are not going to be safely enough. Biggest elven city in the world? They might actually have stone walls. This battle sounds pretty epic.
taradusis 10-27-07, 09:43 PM	Consider importing thrikeen and modifying them to survive in a temperate forest,they like laying eggs in elves and have psionics to counter magic?
Tempest Stormwind 10-28-07, 12:23 PM	Consider importing thrikeen and modifying them to survive in a temperate forest,they like laying eggs in elves and have psionics to counter magic? Thri-kreen aren't about the eggs. They're intoxicated by elf scent, and elf meat is basically solid heroin to them.
Zanedor 10-28-07, 06:59 PM	Thri-kreen aren't about the eggs. They're intoxicated by elf scent, and elf meat is basically solid heroin to them. Ok there goes that idea. :eek:
taradusis 10-29-07, 05:46 PM	Actually if you read thru the AD+D supplement to thri-keen(THRI-KEEN OF ATHAS) it mentions that elves are hunted by the thri-keen because they're a challenge,unlike most races.Elvish meat tastes good to thri-keen and they're a rarity,not a drug.
snakeman830 10-29-07, 08:53 PM	Step 1: Find the Tarrasque Step 2: Cast Dominate Monster on it. You probably won't get it first try, but keep going until you succeed. Step 4: Cast Greater Teleport and take it into the middle of the elf city. Step 5: Teleport away. Step 6: ??? Step 7: Profit. If this dosn't destroy them all, it will definitly drain a large amounts of resources from them. Once the Big T is dead, attack with your method of choice. (or attack with Fire spells while the Big T is still going.) Wait, did I leave out Step 3? How silly of me. Step 3: cast Clone, creating a copy of the Tarrasque. This way, if things don't go well, you can try again with the creature they thought was dead and done with forever. :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh I see your Vampire being of use for another possibility. Have the vamp bump up on his stealth skills (namely, hide and move silently) as much as possible. Then have him go into the city at night and place Blast Disks all over the place, set to go off on Proximity. (perhaps and exploding spike or two as well). Set the last 9 at the base of a building (if necessary, on the outside) on decreasing intervals until detonation. After placing the 9th, shift to bat form and fly away. 1 round later, the nine disks will detonate, damaging (if not collapsing) the building they were on. The elves will promplty come out to see what happened, triggering the other disks (and perhaps spikes). Even if elves don't die in large enough numbers, plenty of damage would have been caused to the city to make it difficult for them to properly organize. Also, plant Exploding Spikes in the armories so as to destroy the largest possible numbers of elven weapons and armor (as well as the elves that go get them). Granted, this won't win the battle for you, but it's nice preperation work for your attack.
Mock26 10-29-07, 11:01 PM	As an aside.... R.I.P. Dungeons & Dragons 1974-2007 MURDERED BY 4TH ED AND WOTC'S GREED That could just as easily read: R.I.P. Dungeons & Dragons 1974-2000 MURDERED BY 3RD ED AND WOTC'S GREED A lot of people said that 3.0 would kill D&D, but it didn't. Given that fact, especially in light of how radical a change 3.0 was from the previous edition, I seriously doubt that 4.0 will kill D&D.
Tempest Stormwind 10-30-07, 12:55 AM	Actually if you read thru the AD+D supplement to thri-keen(THRI-KEEN OF ATHAS) it mentions that elves are hunted by the thri-keen because they're a challenge,unlike most races.Elvish meat tastes good to thri-keen and they're a rarity,not a drug. I have read that book. It's one of the best fluff books I've ever read. I've used it to demonstrate to others that there's more to thri-kreen than four arms and a bug face, and it gave enough information for me to deliver my single most convincing non-human RP ever, hands down (three separate thri-kreen in three separate DMs' games, each of which got applause at the table. I even went so far as to practice emulating their language, substituting rapping on the table for mandible clicks.). The book does, however, say that elf flesh and the smell of an elf in fear are both addictive to thri-kreen and that those who have eaten elves in the past tend to keep doing so. The exact quote is: Still elves hate thri-kreen. From the elven view, the hatred is probably valid; seeing one’s friends eaten by a creature is likely to give one a poor impression of the entire race. The majority of elves have little reason to believe that most thri-kreen simply are not like that. To make the situation worse, thri-kreen really do enjoy the taste of elf flesh; once they taste it, they tend to want more. Because elves fear thri-kreen as much as they hate them, and the elves’ fear-scent is attractive to thri-kreen, this is a problem. A thri-kreen might be perfectly willing to meet with and talk to an elf, but an elf who runs into a thri-kreen almost immediately produces the fear-scent, creating an instictive reaction of hunger in the thri-kreen. To a thri-kreen who has tasted elf flesh, this hunger creates an urge to kill the elf. In a thri-kreen who has not tasted elf, the hunger seems unnatural and can make the thri-kreen uncomfortable. Since elven merchant caravans and nomadic tribes also compete for the same prey, and occasionally water, as the thri-kreen, difficulties are to be expected. I should note that the second bolded part is also how humans tend to feel about drugs. That's what led to my analogy to heroin. Suffice it to say, a few thri-kreen clutches aren't going to kill an elf city, although a few clutches who are desperate for food and who have eaten elves in the past might attack one. They'd *die* (as incredible hunters as they are, thri-kreen tribes simply aren't equipped to lay seige to elven cities -- they equal the elves in Dark Sun pretty much solely because they are all subject to the same pressures of the deserts of Athas, while the typical Faerun-style elf city is a fortress that could withstand planar invasions. Hardened dasl chatchkas aren't going to be much help there, unless George Lucas is directing it.). I stand by my first post in this thread as your best bet.
Mock26 10-30-07, 02:24 AM	Just say NO! to thri-kreen!
Ichon 10-30-07, 02:46 AM	Well, frankly, I think the forces you have been given for the task are somewhat less than optimal. Yet, you do have several advantages that may make success a possibility. First, you have numbers and specialized forces. That is to say, you have hill giants, the PCs, and goblins. Hopefully, you also have some other capable monsters or characters, or can hire them. For the purposes of this little study, I will assume that you do not. Second, you have initiative. Unless you have been extraordinarily unintelligent or unlucky, the elves have neither a grasp of your intentions nor any idea of the specifics of your army. Third, you have mobility, in ways that the elves do not. Since they are bound to protect their cities, they will have less mobile forces to direct against you, at least at first. You also have several disadvantages: You are probably outnumbered. Unless these cities are fairly small, there are almost certainly more than 100,000 denizens altogether. Since elves are typically good, and typically close-knit when dealing with other races, you will be facing a fairly well trained militia of probably 10,000-15,000, plus a skilled core of warriors numbering at least 5000, including nobles, casters, and other really irritating threats. Clerics are, however, possibly the biggest threat, with wizards not far behind. Second, you face the fact that even an elven commoner has a fair chance to put a typical goblin down, provided he has a weapon of some sort. Granted, it isn't a great chance, but it's enough of one that marching your army in a frontal attack would be very unwise even if there were no trained fighters at all. Third, you face an enemy that is more mobile than your troops on a tactical level, better trained, better armored, has a better logistical base, and has much better battlefield support, both medically and in terms of magical artillery. So how do you fight this kind of a war? You don't. Going up against these elven cities is suicide, in this situation. Even forcing them into a siege will be almost impossible, if they have any kind of decent commander (dm). What you do...well, you need to change the situation. This is a long term plan. The following stages are developed to ensure your ultimate victory. However, these are guidelines, not rules. Adapt, adapt, and think. Step 1. Dissension: The first step in your campaign of conquest should be the creation of conflict between the various elves, and, better yet, the elven cities. Determine which is easier/more likely to occur, and run with it, while subtly encouraging the other, as well. Since you have an elf and a vampire in your party, this should be easy. By far, the greatest benefit of a good alignment in society is the general cohesion it brings (to those who share it) with other members. What you want is not for the elves to become evil, but for some of them to become evil. Moral differences can prove to be some of the most effective forces in dividing a culture. To this end, you should encourage the pursuits of evil amongst the arcane classes. Arcane casters have always been relatively easy to corrupt with the pursuit of knowledge and so forth: oblige them. Seed the studying areas of apprentice mages with minor treatises on demonology, and place evil-but engaging-objects for study in the reach of high-level mages. Demon-related devices are wonderful for this, but even more appealing to the mindset of mages are devils, with their attention to detail that so closely mirrors the mind for discipline required for spellcasting. For the clergy, you want to encourage a rigid and Pharisaical attitude. Try to divorce them from seeing their faith or deities as a person with character, and more as a force, and then an ideal. Then twist that ideal. An elven god should become an outgrowth of the elven idea of superiority, and finally a paragon for racial supremacy. It is difficult to make clerics fall, so make them slide. Sponsor xenophobia. Frame an outsider for a crime at least every two months, and do it well. They don't need to be convicted, just suspected. And vary them. Frame dwarves for armed assault, since they "aren't good at sneakin', the clumsy oafs!". Frame humans for depraved violence, or whatever seems best, gnomes for crimes against young elves, etc. Exploit racial prejudices. Don't just turn elves against non-elves, but dwarves against everyone, humans against half-lings, and so forth. Start rumors constantly through the your PCs (Alter Self on the Wizard and Vampire). At the same time, begin a campaign of alienating the smaller cities from the big one. This should not be difficult. Focus it on inequalities, playing off lower classes against the richer and more powerful ones residing in the larger city. Inflame the nobles in the smaller cities by suggesting that the larger city intends to replace them, or is taxing them overmuch, or any particular item which is already a sore spot. Expand from this topic into other areas. Step 2: Decay If you have performed step one correctly, this step is primarily capitalizing on the results while increasing their intensity. Keep doing everything you are doing, but now prepare to begin inflicting actual damage on the power structures of the nation. First, make every effort to summon succubi. Why succubi? Because a devil, the traditional corrupter of mortals, is interested in order. You do not want order. You also do not want a large demon clomping around on Mainstreet. The stealthy succubi, with its focus of forbidden love and destruction, fits perfectly with elven society and your goals, together. Seed every city with them, but have them focus on arcane casters. If you cannot summon succubi, make every attempt to have the arcane casters revealed to be in league with some kind of dark force. Your goal is to discredit both the clergy and the arcane casters, thus weakening your two primary obstacles to success. Plant evidence, if necessary. Acquire a disease that uses a CON check and is easily transferred, and a CON draining poison. Poison major water sources. Plant evidence of the poison in arcane workshops and in the personal belongings of wizards, where it is sure to be discovered. Have the vampire do this, to avoid detection. Infect several goblins with the disease and use Alter Self to disguise them as half-lings. Send them through the major towns spreading the disease as much as possible. Spread the rumor that the church is responsible, trying to assert its power by making it necessary to rely on them for the cure. Begin seeding the woods with dangerous magical creatures. Try to use them to wipe out a few outlying villages, and so forth. Isolate the elves from the woods as much as possible. Begin to assassinate prominent leaders, clergy, and wizards. Use the vampire to Coup De Grace them while they sleep by misting into their dwellings. Always pin the crime on a logical scapegoat...a prominent political rival, a clerical member, a wizard, or, best of all if the figure was much loved, a member of another race. Spread apocalyptic rumors of disease or political corruption. Especially concentrate on destroying the careers of military leaders, but do not assassinate them directly unless it is critically, absolutely necessary. You do not want to attract attention to an outside force. From here on out you should begin to formulate military strategies based on how the situation is progressing. I can't really describe a possible military strategy more detailed than those outlined above because the situation becomes more fluid. Remember, elven warfare depends on movement, not toughness. Try to increase your own strengths by adding better armor during these months. Train spell-casters to cast web. Use elven movement against the elves, by creating situations where mobility means being cut off. Divide their forces and maximize your efforts against individual enemy detachments, all the while sowing dissension at home and in the ranks. Even amongst those still loyal, create the question of HOW the war should be prosecuted. Unify your own forces, and lead appropriately. Joke with the troops occasionally, make sure they are fed and cared for. Train clerics. Make elven archery ineffective, commission tower shields - especially for the front lines. Use biological warfare as much as possible, but don't let it be traced back to you. Avoid detection at all costs. Try to form a calvary detachment, even if it's just goblins riding war dogs. Ask me for advice if this isn't enough.
Naze 10-30-07, 03:04 PM	Adapt, adapt, and think. I love you.
Jarsallen 10-30-07, 04:04 PM	...just remember that the best laid plans will be totally fouled up by four moronic kids and their stupid dog.
Ichon 10-30-07, 06:29 PM	I love you. It's my motto! :D (One of my many.)
snakeman830 10-30-07, 09:37 PM	...just remember that the best laid plans will be totally fouled up by four moronic kids and their stupid dog. So, first do a genocide against all dogs in the area (disguise yourself first!). If anyone asks, you are cynophobic.
Zanedor 10-31-07, 02:55 AM	Well, frankly, I think the forces you have been given for the task are somewhat less than optimal. Yet, you do have several advantages that may make success a possibility. First, you have numbers and specialized forces. That is to say, you have hill giants, the PCs, and goblins. Hopefully, you also have some other capable monsters or characters, or can hire them. For the purposes of this little study, I will assume that you do not. Second, you have initiative. Unless you have been extraordinarily unintelligent or unlucky, the elves have neither a grasp of your intentions nor any idea of the specifics of your army. Third, you have mobility, in ways that the elves do not. Since they are bound to protect their cities, they will have less mobile forces to direct against you, at least at first. You also have several disadvantages: You are probably outnumbered. Unless these cities are fairly small, there are almost certainly more than 100,000 denizens altogether. Since elves are typically good, and typically close-knit when dealing with other races, you will be facing a fairly well trained militia of probably 10,000-15,000, plus a skilled core of warriors numbering at least 5000, including nobles, casters, and other really irritating threats. Clerics are, however, possibly the biggest threat, with wizards not far behind. Second, you face the fact that even an elven commoner has a fair chance to put a typical goblin down, provided he has a weapon of some sort. Granted, it isn't a great chance, but it's enough of one that marching your army in a frontal attack would be very unwise even if there were no trained fighters at all. Third, you face an enemy that is more mobile than your troops on a tactical level, better trained, better armored, has a better logistical base, and has much better battlefield support, both medically and in terms of magical artillery. So how do you fight this kind of a war? You don't. Going up against these elven cities is suicide, in this situation. Even forcing them into a siege will be almost impossible, if they have any kind of decent commander (dm). What you do...well, you need to change the situation. This is a long term plan. The following stages are developed to ensure your ultimate victory. However, these are guidelines, not rules. Adapt, adapt, and think. Step 1. Dissension: The first step in your campaign of conquest should be the creation of conflict between the various elves, and, better yet, the elven cities. Determine which is easier/more likely to occur, and run with it, while subtly encouraging the other, as well. Since you have an elf and a vampire in your party, this should be easy. By far, the greatest benefit of a good alignment in society is the general cohesion it brings (to those who share it) with other members. What you want is not for the elves to become evil, but for some of them to become evil. Moral differences can prove to be some of the most effective forces in dividing a culture. To this end, you should encourage the pursuits of evil amongst the arcane classes. Arcane casters have always been relatively easy to corrupt with the pursuit of knowledge and so forth: oblige them. Seed the studying areas of apprentice mages with minor treatises on demonology, and place evil-but engaging-objects for study in the reach of high-level mages. Demon-related devices are wonderful for this, but even more appealing to the mindset of mages are devils, with their attention to detail that so closely mirrors the mind for discipline required for spellcasting. For the clergy, you want to encourage a rigid and Pharisaical attitude. Try to divorce them from seeing their faith or deities as a person with character, and more as a force, and then an ideal. Then twist that ideal. An elven god should become an outgrowth of the elven idea of superiority, and finally a paragon for racial supremacy. It is difficult to make clerics fall, so make them slide. Sponsor xenophobia. Frame an outsider for a crime at least every two months, and do it well. They don't need to be convicted, just suspected. And vary them. Frame dwarves for armed assault, since they "aren't good at sneakin', the clumsy oafs!". Frame humans for depraved violence, or whatever seems best, gnomes for crimes against young elves, etc. Exploit racial prejudices. Don't just turn elves against non-elves, but dwarves against everyone, humans against half-lings, and so forth. Start rumors constantly through the your PCs (Alter Self on the Wizard and Vampire). At the same time, begin a campaign of alienating the smaller cities from the big one. This should not be difficult. Focus it on inequalities, playing off lower classes against the richer and more powerful ones residing in the larger city. Inflame the nobles in the smaller cities by suggesting that the larger city intends to replace them, or is taxing them overmuch, or any particular item which is already a sore spot. Expand from this topic into other areas. Step 2: Decay If you have performed step one correctly, this step is primarily capitalizing on the results while increasing their intensity. Keep doing everything you are doing, but now prepare to begin inflicting actual damage on the power structures of the nation. First, make every effort to summon succubi. Why succubi? Because a devil, the traditional corrupter of mortals, is interested in order. You do not want order. You also do not want a large demon clomping around on Mainstreet. The stealthy succubi, with its focus of forbidden love and destruction, fits perfectly with elven society and your goals, together. Seed every city with them, but have them focus on arcane casters. If you cannot summon succubi, make every attempt to have the arcane casters revealed to be in league with some kind of dark force. Your goal is to discredit both the clergy and the arcane casters, thus weakening your two primary obstacles to success. Plant evidence, if necessary. Acquire a disease that uses a CON check and is easily transferred, and a CON draining poison. Poison major water sources. Plant evidence of the poison in arcane workshops and in the personal belongings of wizards, where it is sure to be discovered. Have the vampire do this, to avoid detection. Infect several goblins with the disease and use Alter Self to disguise them as half-lings. Send them through the major towns spreading the disease as much as possible. Spread the rumor that the church is responsible, trying to assert its power by making it necessary to rely on them for the cure. Begin seeding the woods with dangerous magical creatures. Try to use them to wipe out a few outlying villages, and so forth. Isolate the elves from the woods as much as possible. Begin to assassinate prominent leaders, clergy, and wizards. Use the vampire to Coup De Grace them while they sleep by misting into their dwellings. Always pin the crime on a logical scapegoat...a prominent political rival, a clerical member, a wizard, or, best of all if the figure was much loved, a member of another race. Spread apocalyptic rumors of disease or political corruption. Especially concentrate on destroying the careers of military leaders, but do not assassinate them directly unless it is critically, absolutely necessary. You do not want to attract attention to an outside force. From here on out you should begin to formulate military strategies based on how the situation is progressing. I can't really describe a possible military strategy more detailed than those outlined above because the situation becomes more fluid. Remember, elven warfare depends on movement, not toughness. Try to increase your own strengths by adding better armor during these months. Train spell-casters to cast web. Use elven movement against the elves, by creating situations where mobility means being cut off. Divide their forces and maximize your efforts against individual enemy detachments, all the while sowing dissension at home and in the ranks. Even amongst those still loyal, create the question of HOW the war should be prosecuted. Unify your own forces, and lead appropriately. Joke with the troops occasionally, make sure they are fed and cared for. Train clerics. Make elven archery ineffective, commission tower shields - especially for the front lines. Use biological warfare as much as possible, but don't let it be traced back to you. Avoid detection at all costs. Try to form a calvary detachment, even if it's just goblins riding war dogs. Ask me for advice if this isn't enough. People! I present to you a truly evil plot full of equally evil WIN! :cool: You sir have come up with what I think that this is so far the best plan to weaken the cites before a attack and strengthen and prepare your troops before the attack. Awesome man. Awesome. :bow:
Sezarious 10-31-07, 08:53 AM	Heeeey, wait a minute... Where's the guy who posted the question, i haven't read anything by him in ages. Hellooooo, Beeeneeeeboooo... Are you out there? :detect: Might have to send the strategy to him in a private message maybe...
Radijs 10-31-07, 02:08 PM	Sorry to say but the OP has done that before. I recognized the bad spelling and "I'm a vampire without spawn" bit. He won't be back until he needs more advice.
Mock26 10-31-07, 04:37 PM	Create a new spell: Mass Transmute Elf to Orc.
snakeman830 11-01-07, 04:31 PM	Create a new spell: Mass Transmute Elf to Orc. It's like an episode of Tansformers where everyone kept thinking everyone else was a decepticon... I like...
Ziggaraut 11-01-07, 05:46 PM	Hmmm... speaking as a Texan, I must say that I very much doubt that a place as big as Texas has only 1 major city and 5 minor ones. Do not forget endless smaller villages and large stretches of nothing. Biological warfare on such a scale would be endlessly difficult. Do the Black Death strategy and infect local wildlife, preferably something of the migratory (or non-territorial) variety. Perhaps not as clear cut, but effective nonetheless. Previous strategies are very good, I feel honored to of read them. Adolf must be so proud.
Mock26 11-01-07, 06:43 PM	You could use mass hypnosis to make the elves think that they are living in Texas! That would really demoralize them. :D
Legdiwena 11-02-07, 11:11 AM	AMF and giants hurling shrunk boulders.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 11-02-07, 01:52 PM	Greek fire, followed by the giants hurling the goblins into combat.
Legdiwena 11-03-07, 12:46 PM	Horde of magmin
snakeman830 11-03-07, 03:53 PM	Horde of magmin Elemental Swarm! Summon Fire Elementals and tell them to burn the forest. If they are defeated, who cares? They still did some damage at least, and you haven't lost any troops. Repeat when fun. Come to think of it, summoning would be a good idea in general. However, I must conceed, Ichon's strategy is best.