Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hyphz 10-25-04, 11:38 AM	Well, we've been playing an Eberron campaign for a while and I was interested in trying out the new stuff, so I've been playing an Artificer character. The adventures we've played have been the back of the Eberron book adventure, Shadows of the Last War and we are now starting on Whispers of the Vampire Blade. They've basically been run as per book except they've been toughened up a bit and the DM has replaced many of the major enemies' weapons with spiked chains to counter the multiple chain users in the group. (We fought a Warforged servant of the "Lord of Blades" who was using a spiked chain...) But as an artificer I'm just coming to terms with the fact that I, to be blunt, suck. My build seems fairly reasonable, and yet in a fight I can do nothing but hang back. Oh, yea, hang on.. I get to buff the fighters, but I only get to do that 7 times per level (AP expenditure for fast infusion). Oh, and I get to shoot with a crossbow of my own, but any buff I put on that will AT MOST get me to do as much damage as the other party members are doing anyway. I think the ultimate absurdity was when the party found a load of gold and all went shopping and there was nothing I could buy because I wasn't doing anything. Items with stored spells are usually overcosted compared to "naturally" casting those spells and buffing weapons is pointless for a non-fighter. "Metamagic rods!" cried all the other spellcasters, but I have no infusions that would be affected by them, and Metamagic Item requires that you have actually have the feat on your character rather than just being able to cast spells with it. I guess I could have spent a couple of thousand GP on a wand of 7th-or-so level Magic Missile, because that'll be really useful while the other spellcasters are throwing empowered or even maximised fireballs via metamagic rods (we're 5th level). Not forgetting I have to roll UMD to use the wand because it would be so brokenly powerful for me to use it on top of all the other things I can do... About all the other class abilities come down to is that, whenever I level, there is an extended shopping expedition in which the other party members pay me to make stuff until my craft reserve runs out. (Or, at 5th level, until we run out of stuff for me to essence reclaim.) Then, back to sleep. So it seems that the artificer is another class which is really just there to give NPCs as excuses for them having lots of magical items. A bit like the rogue which is really just an NPC class because it depends on setting up situations which in most cases players can't do as they have to go to the dungeon. Is there any way to fix it?
kevmarq 10-25-04, 12:29 PM	Until 7th level when you can apply metamagic to your wands you will only be able to deal average damage with wands. These are the Artificer's best friends use them extensively especially with spells that don't allow a save (Magic Missle, Scorching Ray) and buffing spells(Divine Favor/Might). Take the artisan feats to reduce your crafting costs(xp and gp) and then take lots of metamagic (Quicken, twin, empower, energy admixture). Then when you hit 7th you'll be able to use those on your wands and deal damage easily equalling any regular casters, and many times more each day. Make sure you keep UMD maxed and craft an item to boost it further so that you only have to worry about failing if you roll a 1. The hardest part for an Artificer is affording all the wands you will need, they may seem expensive but they are well worth it. Also don't overlook the infusion(I forget its name) that lets you put a spell of up to 4th level into an item like a 1-shot wand. This will let you help with general adventuring pulling spells nobody else has out to get around obstacles. Check out the Eberron boards for other helpful things for Artificers as well as the character optimization boards for the blastificer builds.
hyphz 10-25-04, 12:46 PM	Until 7th level when you can apply metamagic to your wands you will only be able to deal average damage with wands. These are the Artificer's best friends use them extensively especially with spells that don't allow a save (Magic Missle, Scorching Ray) and buffing spells(Divine Favor/Might). Take the artisan feats to reduce your crafting costs(xp and gp) and then take lots of metamagic (Quicken, twin, empower, energy admixture). Then when you hit 7th you'll be able to use those on your wands and deal damage easily equalling any regular casters, and many times more each day. It sounds pretty good, but does that really work? Bear in mind, the DM in this campaign makes it quite easy for us to leave areas and rest or timewaste so that the other spellcasters can recover spells, so the advantage of not having a per-day limit is relatively minor, and replaced by the disadvantage of a total limit that has to be paid for. I already have the two artisan feats for xp and gp, I guess the time one isn't worth it because for most DMs, including ours, downtime is downtime. infusion(I forget its name) that lets you put a spell of up to 4th level into an item like a 1-shot wand. This will let you help with general adventuring pulling spells nobody else has out to get around obstacles. Spell Storing Item (IIRC) costs XP to cast, and - if I understand correctly - I can't use craft reserve to pay it because I am not crafting an item.
psionichamster 10-25-04, 12:53 PM	well...i am not sure where to start commenting on your post, but here goes... So it seems that the artificer is another class which is really just there to give NPCs as excuses for them having lots of magical items. A bit like the rogue which is really just an NPC class because it depends on setting up situations which in most cases players can't do as they have to go to the dungeon. Is there any way to fix it? besides the assertion that rogues are ONLY fit for npcs (which i shall defer to another time) you are making a few basic mistakes 1. scrolls...i have an artificer in my party who carries his own body weight in scrolls...it helps that he's multiclassed as a cleric with domain:magic, so those wiz/sor spells are on his class list, but the UMD check on them is ridiculously low anyways 2. wands...get them low level ones now, and keep em...when you get slightly higher level and you have wand mastery, retain the essence and make new ones 3. items items items...utility items (boots of speed, decanter endless water, bags o holding) are your friend...make sure you aren't overlooking that aspect of your char... 4. skills...you prob have a high int. that translates into decent scores on your craft: anything rolls...alchemist fire, tanglefoot bags, other nifty alchemical and not items 5. SUPPORT...you are not the front line fighter, nor are you the blasterific sorcerer/wizard/druid...your role in a party is the make sure everyone has what they need to survive...not all your buff infusions take all that time to cast, and they DO have a 10min/lvl duration...that's almost an hour for some of em...take the time in the beginning of your adv. and STICK together...noone's saying you can't aid another to help them spike chain wielding trip-monkeys do their trip-monkeying... 6. i would take another look at just WHAT you want your character to do...your game style seems to be more of the enter dungeon, slay monsters, get phat lewt, spend phat lewt for uber-kewl monkeynation spikey chains of death and dismemberment™...if so perhaps an artificer simply wouldnt fit in your party... 7. buy a warforged. no, seriously. buy a friend who you can drop all kinds of stuff onto/into/etc...they are DESIGNED to go together, and if you have a 6'5" tall hunk of adamantium with weapons and nastiness between you and the dungeon, you should be set. remember, repair light damage (and the rest of the repair chain) is a standard action to effect... ok enough points... no, the artificer class is NOT just for NPC's no, it is NOT a front line fighter type no, it is not a blaster mage buy and make magic items it makes mouths happy! the hamster ps...rogues do more damage on average than pretty much any other melee class, and have better skills and typically more money...theft and treachery do pay you know...
hyphz 10-25-04, 01:10 PM	besides the assertion that rogues are ONLY fit for npcs (which i shall defer to another time) you are making a few basic mistakes Well, that was based on our last adventure in which our party had the pleasure of being humiliated by an NPC rogue, who I think might actually have been lower level than us, purely because she knew she could set up whatever traps she wanted and we had to come to her because she was the adventure. 1. scrolls...i have an artificer in my party who carries his own body weight in scrolls...it helps that he's multiclassed as a cleric with domain:magic, so those wiz/sor spells are on his class list, but the UMD check on them is ridiculously low anyways Yea, I did a bit of that early on as well. But why bother when I can just spend the craft reserve on making the fighter a permanent item of Enlarge that will last forever? 2. wands...get them low level ones now, and keep em...when you get slightly higher level and you have wand mastery, retain the essence and make new ones That's mention above. 3. items items items...utility items (boots of speed, decanter endless water, bags o holding) are your friend...make sure you aren't overlooking that aspect of your char... We don't generally check provisions or encumbrance, so the latter two are irrelevant. Boots of speed? Unless the whole party had them, all they do is make me alone faster, and artificer alone at any time when speed is being checked (ie, combat) = dead artificer. 4. skills...you prob have a high int. that translates into decent scores on your craft: anything rolls...alchemist fire, tanglefoot bags, other nifty alchemical and not items Except that they take a huge amount of time to make. This is thanks to the bizarre craft skill system whereby making a basic item often actually takes longer than making that item magical. 5. SUPPORT...you are not the front line fighter, nor are you the blasterific sorcerer/wizard/druid...your role in a party is the make sure everyone has what they need to survive...not all your buff infusions take all that time to cast, and they DO have a 10min/lvl duration...that's almost an hour for some of em...take the time in the beginning of your adv. and STICK together...noone's saying you can't aid another to help them spike chain wielding trip-monkeys do their trip-monkeying... Sure. So at the start of the adventure I can do a bunch of buffing and then mise well go home (IRL) since I'm done playing for the night. Oh, except for the fact that most of the really useful buffs require advance knowledge of the situation to know which to apply. 6. i would take another look at just WHAT you want your character to do...your game style seems to be more of the enter dungeon, slay monsters, get phat lewt, spend phat lewt for uber-kewl monkeynation spikey chains of death and dismemberment™...if so perhaps an artificer simply wouldnt fit in your party... That's the kind of style the other players like.. actually, I played the artificer in the hope it would be a less hack-n-slash game, and the DM commented that it'd be sad to use Eberron for just dungeon crawling, so I tried to write some background for the Artificer. After we did Shadows of the Last War I said my character wanted to go find the other Cannith forges that were mentioned on the map in that adventure, to see if he could get any other valuable artifacts in order that he could influence Cannith (since he started adventuring because he was tired of being their "*****" as a result of having neither a dragonmark nor phat cash). Next thing I knew, I was.. well, sitting in a tavern and going to look for the Vampire Blade in exchange for some gold. Guess I brain-farted one morning and forgot my plans. (To be fair though I should not complain about this, because it is due to the fact that the GM is busy IRL and didn't have time to write those other sites up as adventures; I guess it isn't his fault that D&D requires DMs to do hours of mathematical work in order to let the players RP) 7. buy a warforged. no, seriously. buy a friend who you can drop all kinds of stuff onto/into/etc...they are DESIGNED to go together, and if you have a 6'5" tall hunk of adamantium with weapons and nastiness between you and the dungeon, you should be set. remember, repair light damage (and the rest of the repair chain) is a standard action to effect... Yes, there is actually a warforged PC in the party, I get to heal him ever-so-often. But the only modification I can do is to make.. umm, those little sphere things whose name I can't remember (donal or something?). Now, if I could start making my own Constructs I could look into modding them, but that's a long way away. ps...rogues do more damage on average than pretty much any other melee class, In the right circumstances, yes, but those circumstances are easily avoided by enemies once they know there's a rogue in the group. Smart tough monsters will just quickly head for open areas where there's nowhere to hide, use true seeing/tremorsense etc..
kevmarq 10-25-04, 01:15 PM	It sounds pretty good, but does that really work? Bear in mind, the DM in this campaign makes it quite easy for us to leave areas and rest or timewaste so that the other spellcasters can recover spells, so the advantage of not having a per-day limit is relatively minor, and replaced by the disadvantage of a total limit that has to be paid for. If casters are able to have nearly full spell slots for each battle they will be able to dish out quite a lot of damage. However one advantage you will have is that you won't be limited by your highest available spell slot. So go ahead and fire off that sonic admixed+twinned scorching ray. Normally that takes a 10th level spell slot but you can do it all by expending 9 wand charges. Sure that means you will go through wands like mad but it sounds like your party has plenty of gold (metamagic rods at 5?) The Artificer is the ultimate support member, but with some tweaking it can deal some nasty damage just with a high gold cost. Spell Storing Item (IIRC) costs XP to cast, and - if I understand correctly - I can't use craft reserve to pay it because I am not crafting an item. True, but the xp cost is pretty minimal. Especially when you can pull out the "spell that nobody would ever consider useful except in this one case where it is perfect"
kevmarq 10-25-04, 01:21 PM	Oh and don't forget to use the infusion(wow I can't remember the name for anything today) that will let you apply a metamagic feat to a wand for x minutes. That way you can do the big blasting without wasting extra charges. Just need a couple minutes prep time, or use those action points (why waste them buffing others be selfish :D )
eRaz0r 10-25-04, 09:12 PM	While I'm interested in your predicament (since I'm playing an Artificer in a game right now, only 1 Art/1 Fighter right now), I can't help but feel you're feeling left out. not because of the class limitations, but because of your games structure. You're feeling like your damage output is important, and the support role isn't really working out for you. That's a problem, since you really can't change the fact that the Artificer is heavily item-reliant, and support-oriented. If you want damage output - sorcerer or barbarian might suit you. On the other hand, with the Artificer you can up your damage output by getting lots of metamagic feats. If you build him right, you can cast MetaMagic Item to enhance a wand of Scorching Ray (say with Empower and Maximize or something) and output more damage than the Sorcerers at the same level. With your higher BAB, you should hit with the Rays more often. Also, make yourself a Wondrous Item of UMD. That will make your life easier. You could also go with Persistant Spell. With a wand of Divine Favor you can mix it up with the melee boys for a bit.
scrollreader 10-26-04, 03:10 AM	I'm surrently playing a higher level artificer. And uh ... you kinda have me shaking my head. Metamagic Item is your friend. (and possibly one of the most broke/awesome INfusion/Spells/Abilities in the game). But don't overlook your ability to burn through wands. A wand of true strike is 750 gp. A quickened shot of it uses five charges. That's 75 gp/true strike (as a free action). Doesn't that seem rather nice to you? With your bane light crossbow, you should at least be doing respectable damage, on the cheap. Once you get to a slightly higher level ... scorching ray. or lesser orb. Twin. Admix. Quicken. That's /6/ times the damage output, right there. With a wand of scorching ray (minimum caster level) that's 24d6 points of damage. Bam. Buy better wands, and it only gets worse. Also, if your DM allows it: Artificers make Persistant Spell cry out for mercy. Persistant Divine Favor/Might yourself. Persistant Draconic Polymorph. And the list goes on, all the way up to Persistant Shapechange (at level 15).
Dracoulis The Phyrexian 10-26-04, 03:25 AM	Spell-Storing Item. That is the Artificer's mantra. What does it do? Well, it allows you to cast any level 4 or less spell. Oh, but it only cost you the level 1 slot to cast SSI. Who's the best now? Oh, wah, it costs you a tiny amount of experience. I do mean tiny; around 28 at most, if I remember right. And don't forget: If you're desperate, use higher level slots to cast it. Quite often, this one little spell is better than your entire list. Why? Because it gives you everyone else's spell list!
Airsucker 10-26-04, 08:44 PM	Get the party to love you for your support. "If you happen to have a few gold to spare towards components cost, I could make that sword into <nice shiney pointy item>." Also, a mental quirk or touch of insanity makes everyones day more interesting. "Why don't you want a flaming sword? Everybody wants a flaming sword! Fire is pretty!"