Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edwind 05-13-06, 11:27 PM	Alright so, currently my character is a Lizardfolk Paladin5/S.O.R3 I have reached all the requirments to become a Vessle Of Buhumat exect the killing of a red dragon. I've almost reached a next level, but I don't want to take it cause I want to get into V.O.B right away. How can I do this? This may seem like a stupid question but I don't know what to do. I have no idea when my DM is going to make me fight a red dragon and I don't want it to be like 9 sessions away. Anybody?
TheChilliGod 05-14-06, 12:10 AM	Simple. Keep track of your experience as per normal, but don't level up when the time comes. I know that, most of the time you're supposed to level up as soon as you get the xp, but it should be alright to get a house rule from your DM to just 'store' the excess xp until you feel it's alright to level up with it. To avoid metagaming, claim that your character is trying to focus on becoming a Vassal of Bahamut, but isn't quite able to concentrate until he feels the thrill of destroying one of Bahamut's worst enemies. Also, try your best to find a red dragon's lair somewhere, anywhere! Have a spellcaster research on some red dragon's name in the largest library you've ever been to, find the name of a red dragon, cast Scrying if you can't find the location, and hone in. If you're desperate, refuse to continue with the current quest you're on until you've destroyed a red dragon. Say something about personal insecurities in your character's mind, or deteriorating mental condition based on unfulfilled aspirations, if you want to avoid metagaming.
Mitchell 05-14-06, 12:14 AM	Option 1) Go out of your way to find a red dragon. Don't do anything until you do. convincing the rest of the party to roam about in search of a red dragon that isn't too tough may be difficult. Option 2) Depending on how your DM does leveling... If it's an automatic process, well, it's an automatic process and there isn't a whole lot you can do about it. You get the XP, you level, and that's that. If it isn't an automatic process (you have to find a trainer or whatever), then just don't train up. The problem here is that you will be stuck at a maximium XP of 1 point below your next level, so if there isn't a red dragon coming down the line, then you may fall behind the party by a level or 10.
Koretsu 05-14-06, 12:33 AM	I can get you to your next level and get you that red dragon kill at the same time. Buy 3 Quall's Feather Token: Tree. They cost 400 GP each. Find yourself a red dragon, stand back, and get it's attention. Set a readied action against it opening it's mouth (most probably for fire breath). As soon as it opens it's mouth, throw your 3 feather tokens into it's jaws (You may want to try using a sling). BOOM. 3 60-foot oak trees, each going 30 feet each way in random directions. instantly exist inside the dragons mouth. Congratulations. You've killed the dragon, got more than your money's worth for the tokens (You have a dragon's horde), and you have the exp needed to level up.
Edwind 05-14-06, 01:13 AM	I'd imagin my DM would allow me to just let me not level, but have it stored. But then again he is a bit of an ass and would say no just to spite me. Also the feather idea is a really good one, but I'd imagin he wouldn't let me do that, even to go as far as reverse time back five minutes, but thats if I secretly keep that plan to myself. If I told him what I was going to do he'd say no or just not let me find someone who sells that item. The whole campaign is pretty much "everyones evil, theres no good gods existing because they were run out by the evil ones." So me finding a library would be almost to near impossible. Same with the wizard thing. He's told me he had actually planned on putting a red dragon into his game even before I said I was going to go V.O.B but he also says I couldn't take it. I countered with setting an ambush, but he countered with the Paladins code of conduct. He didn't really get me on that point, but he can just take my paladinhood away like that so it seems I'm going to have to find some other ways to fight it. Any ideas on how to fight a dragon head to head? you got 16 12 20 7 9 16 AC 28 HP 107 12/7 +1 Heavy Pick d6+4 x4 To work with. SO what can I do?
Wolfpack 05-14-06, 01:27 AM	Someone posted a thread along the same lines of fighting the red dragon one on one last week so do a quick search and you'll find it, as for the original question according to the phb or dmg (I'm too tired to see which) you do not have to level up once you reach the xp needed to level, this is done this way due to item creation xp costs sometimes exceeding the amount of xp you can gain between two levels or something along those lines. I wish I could be of more help but I've been awake way too long already.
DracoPhoenix 05-14-06, 06:58 AM	DOn't know if htis is going to be of any help or not: IIRC, there is a cap to the amount of xp someone can get from a single encounter that is basically equal to +2 levels -1xp. This may impact on the amount by which you can off set level up. Failing that talk to the DM and either waive or bring forward the dragon encounter.
runestar 05-14-06, 07:12 AM	I thought you are allowed to store your xp and choose not to level for any reasons that are your own? :confused: Maybe like in the case of a lv17 wizard who wishes to hoard xp to wish for an epic magic item...
Witch 05-14-06, 07:17 AM	I thought you are allowed to store your xp and choose not to level for any reasons that are your own? :confused: I believed so too. The computer games handled it that way as well.
Nomad16 05-14-06, 07:24 AM	With your class selection i cant think of any items to make, also wouldnt help much considering the loss of the feat. Another option would be to die, thats 1 level of loss there, and i dont believe you must level the same way as you did previously. Example, keep going along xpin as normal adding levels in anything, when the story is at a good stoping place go find your red dragon and kill it. Give enough gold for npc spellcasting to a trusted friend. then kill yourself, and your buddy will res you. Repeat untill you are the desired level. Remember that xp will fly in if your a few levels behind the party. Or plan b...stop the DM right where you are and tell him your finding a red dragon, if he protests slap him in the face, if he protests more offer the ultimatum waive the req or gimmie my dragon. But im curious why play a VoB in a campaign that isnt overrun with dragons?
Sphyre 05-14-06, 09:38 AM	Find yourself a red dragon, stand back, and get it's attention. Set a readied action against it opening it's mouth (most probably for fire breath). As soon as it opens it's mouth, throw your 3 feather tokens into it's jaws (You may want to try using a sling). BOOM. 3 60-foot oak trees, each going 30 feet each way in random directions. instantly exist inside the dragons mouth. Congratulations. You've killed the dragon, got more than your money's worth for the tokens (You have a dragon's horde), and you have the exp needed to level up. This is a commonly misconceived problem on the forums. That there are very easy ways to overcome challenges with obscure ways, that net relatively no danger at all. 99% of them involve something that doesn't have specific mechanics to it, and are upto interpretation. Yes, while the concept of making something small grow large would "explode" a dragon if it were in him may seem like an easy kill that's uncircumventable... but there's a problem with this. Players are assuming they know the ingame reprocussions of un-defined scenarios. If such things were given mechanics what mechanics would they be given? From a mechanic perspective this would probably net in: Ranged Touch attack roll to get the tokens at the dragon. How do you get it in the mouth? there's no called shots. Not to mention activating an item is a stardard action, how can you activate it after you've shot it off? Ok, lets just assume you were in the dragons mouth, activate it as a stardard action, drop it in as a free action psionic dimension door as a move action (or quickened dimension door, or something of the type). So the trees grow and the dragon dies, no save? No, I think there'd be a save involved at least. And would it result in death? Maybe there's a reflex save to spit them out, and a fortitude save to resist damage from the expansion? How would you like it if i stuck one of those in your mouth and killed you no save... sound fair to you? It makes sense too. You're also assuming the dragon is stupid enough to just swallow whatever you throw in it's mouth. Now we have something even more that stops your plans in it's tracks even more. If you've read the core rules in and out, almost every single magic/psionic effect that increases size of something is stopped or fails if it can't fit in the space that it's trying to expand to. Why would the tokens be any different? Sure they don't have mechanics saying that they don't but at the same time, they don't have mechanics that say "As a ranged touch attack you can throw this in the mouth of an enemy with a range increment of 5. If it hits your target dies from the trees expanding in the mouth/stomach of it, no save." As a general rule, if something doesn't have a mechanical effect when used a certain way, that effect is subject to DM discresion, or has no effect. I personally, enjoy creativity in my players, and when someone does something not covered in the rules, I generally rule something that makes sense and is relative in power to the effort invested. If for some reason you activated one in the dragons mouth, it would expand to the size of the mouth dealing 3d6 bludgeoning damage, with a reflex save DC 17 (The spell needed to create it is Major creation, a 5th level spell, which minimum DC of a 5th level spell is 17) negates the effect, meaning the dragon spit it out. Damage being a little weak for a nonconventional use of an expendable 400g item. I give that to my players at least as opposed to "it doesn't work." or "congratulations, your breaking of rules has netted you one dead dragon. By the way someone with a silence spell active pops into your room at night, walks over to you, pops one into your mouth and you die in your sleep" Dragons are not easy targets... gullible DMs are.
monkadin 05-14-06, 10:53 AM	I thought of a way that you could find a red dragon even if the DM says you can't find a lair. Get someone to cast astral projection (or is it astral traveler) and take you to the astral plane. Thenfnd some githyanki, befriend them. Because githyanki have the Red Dragon Pact ability, chances are you'll come across a githyanki using one as a mount. Then, well, I think you know the rest.
FeceMan 05-14-06, 01:08 PM	I'd imagin my DM would allow me to just let me not level, but have it stored. But then again he is a bit of an ass and would say no just to spite me. Also the feather idea is a really good one, but I'd imagin he wouldn't let me do that, even to go as far as reverse time back five minutes, but thats if I secretly keep that plan to myself. If I told him what I was going to do he'd say no or just not let me find someone who sells that item. The whole campaign is pretty much "everyones evil, theres no good gods existing because they were run out by the evil ones." So me finding a library would be almost to near impossible. Same with the wizard thing. He's told me he had actually planned on putting a red dragon into his game even before I said I was going to go V.O.B but he also says I couldn't take it. I countered with setting an ambush, but he countered with the Paladins code of conduct. He didn't really get me on that point, but he can just take my paladinhood away like that so it seems I'm going to have to find some other ways to fight it. Any ideas on how to fight a dragon head to head? you got 16 12 20 7 9 16 AC 28 HP 107 12/7 +1 Heavy Pick d6+4 x4 To work with. SO what can I do? Wait...evil doesn't have libraries? :confused: And, if your DM is going to be an ass about your character development, just tell him to **** off. If you fear he's going to screw you over in some way, just don't say anything and hold off on leveling. What's that saying, "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission"? Anyway, as for fighting a red dragon... Grab protection from energy and resist energy (yes, both). Make sure you have a strong magic weapon to overcome DR, though this is kind of a 'duh'. If you have any way to boost your reflex saves, that would be a good decision. Try to find a way to keep it from flying. Depending on its size, you'll probably provoke a lot of AoOs from charging/moving in to attack, so you'll want to...um...not die by that. [Actually...with a dragon's crappy DEX score, you won't, so yay for that?] If the dragon does attack from overhead, take advantage of its poor manueverability. Also, be sure to take advantage of the dragon's poor touch AC--have the party arcanist use powerful spells that require a ranged touch attack (since those tend to do more damage that those that are automatic hits). Orb spells are very, very useful for this. Personally, I'd opt to find a spell that does DEX damage (I'm pretty sure there are some out there). If you can, you will be able to incapacitate the dragon fairly quickly. If, however, you cannot, just use general tactics that have worked against powerful opponents in the past. And hope for crits. Lots and lots of crits.
Traevanon 05-14-06, 01:19 PM	Generally if something expands inside of something else (see Enlarge Person) there is a strength check, which if it fails the effect fizzles. If I was the DM, since killing a dragon via Quaal's feather token relies on my allowing it, I would rule that since the token lists no strength score it automatically fails the check and fizzles. Remaining a token. What the OP needs to find is some evil wizard with a Draconic Familiar. :schemes:
SokenzanMarauder 05-14-06, 02:08 PM	Alright, if I remember correctly to qualify you must kill an ADULT (see the edit) dragon. At level 8 you are going to die. Period. The Vassal of Bahamut is meant for higher level characters not eighth level characters wanting to get one up on their buddies. I say give it up for awhile then once you're tougher, then try to kill one. Think of it this way. A single Adult Red Dragon is CR 15. You're a member of a party of (I'm assuming) 4 characters of eighth level. That's CR 8. Now, to qualify, you have to fight the thing alone. Yeah, I don't see a level 8 PC doing anything more than maybe scoring a hit or two then being incinerated by its breath weapon. -Gene Edit: After diggin up the BoED I read it's juvinile or older. Alright, so you have to kill a CR 10 creature. Alone, at 8th level. I can see you MAYBE winning if you drag along a couple dozen heal potions and some buff scrolls with luck on your side. Aside from that, you'd better wait awhile.
Edwind 05-14-06, 05:26 PM	Yes... I can see how it looks like it can't be done, Maybe I SHOULD hold back a few levels, maybe two. Looking for potions would be a good idea. We just finished saving some monks and priest so maybe they can supply us with some, also with a library...Maybe some arrows of dragonslaying? But since my dex is barely high, I believe it be better not too. I was thinking maybe get dragonbane, but I'd believe thats out of my price range. So what we got so far is... Get potions of energy resistance/immunity Try and deal Dex damage Deal alot of damage... And yeah, thinking about my DM I'd imagin he wouldn't make this easy so he may throw in kobolds just cause, maybe so I couldn't catch it by surprise?
SokenzanMarauder 05-14-06, 06:00 PM	Well, if your DM is worth his salt fighting a dragon with a party should be one helluva fight let alone fighting one all by yourself. As you've said, DEX damage and Potions are the ways to go. See if you can get ahold of a few Bane(dragon) weapons to assist in killing it. Aside from that you'll need a lot of luck. -Gene
Cifer 05-14-06, 07:17 PM	And yeah, thinking about my DM I'd imagin he wouldn't make this easy so he may throw in kobolds just cause, maybe so I couldn't catch it by surprise? In that case, the kobolds are fair game for your party (actually a pretty good way to keep them from boredom while you kill the reak lizard). VoB says only that you have to kill the dragon personally.
FeceMan 05-14-06, 07:35 PM	Generally if something expands inside of something else (see Enlarge Person) there is a strength check, which if it fails the effect fizzles. If I was the DM, since killing a dragon via Quaal's feather token relies on my allowing it, I would rule that since the token lists no strength score it automatically fails the check and fizzles. Remaining a token. What the OP needs to find is some evil wizard with a Draconic Familiar. :schemes: Draconic familiars can only be wyrmling age. After that, they are no longer familiars. :( The Vassal of Bahamut class is meant to be taken from levels 10-20. Period. It's not meant to be grabbed early because its abilities are damn good. However, one must remember that the OP is ECL 11--he's got eight class levels, two racial hit dice, and a level adjustment of +1. (By the way, what's the SoR?)
Edwind 05-14-06, 08:02 PM	S.O.R is Sword of Rightous, from Exalted Deeds. Pretty much a 3 level class, and every level you get a bonus exalted feat. Also, using UA and bought off my LA with experience, and I dunno how HD works with class levels and all so I assume I'm 8th level. Alright so potions are a most, what others could help me besides resist energy and those kind of things?
FeceMan 05-14-06, 08:07 PM	S.O.R is Sword of Rightous, from Exalted Deeds. Pretty much a 3 level class, and every level you get a bonus exalted feat. Also, using UA and bought off my LA with experience, and I dunno how HD works with class levels and all so I assume I'm 8th level. Alright so potions are a most, what others could help me besides resist energy and those kind of things? Errr...you don't know how HD works with class levels? You DO realize you have an extra 2d8 hit dice, additional skill points, and +3 to reflex saves [outside of the normal bonuses from your class], right?
dragonseth 05-14-06, 08:30 PM	S.O.R is Sword of Rightous, from Exalted Deeds. Pretty much a 3 level class, and every level you get a bonus exalted feat. Also, using UA and bought off my LA with experience, and I dunno how HD works with class levels and all so I assume I'm 8th level. Alright so potions are a most, what others could help me besides resist energy and those kind of things? Read up on ECL people. Think of the children!
Edwind 05-14-06, 08:39 PM	Well yeah, I knew I had all that stuff... I just thought it was covered by the LA...
Deacon Liadon 05-14-06, 09:19 PM	Good grief. Is everyone going for the V.O.B these days? I'm doing it with my dragonborn paladin. Or, at least, I plan to. I have five words for you: Maximised Lesser Orb of Cold One of these baby's will hit the dragon for 60hp of damage. No save, no SR. Getting a one use item containing them will cost you 1,700 gp.
FeceMan 05-14-06, 11:47 PM	Good grief. Is everyone going for the V.O.B these days? I'm doing it with my dragonborn paladin. Or, at least, I plan to. I have five words for you: Maximised Lesser Orb of Cold One of these baby's will hit the dragon for 60hp of damage. No save, no SR. Getting a one use item containing them will cost you 1,700 gp. Damnit! That's what I was forgetting. I was considering "OOH COLD SPELL" but I couldn't remember if red dragons had vulnerability to it.
erc1971 05-15-06, 09:50 AM	Why not level up in VoB. But, take only the hit points, BAB and saves. Then, when you finally do kill a red dragon, you get all of the abilities that go with the class.
Morwen 05-15-06, 10:06 AM	He's told me he had actually planned on putting a red dragon into his game even before I said I was going to go V.O.B but he also says I couldn't take it. It, as in the Dragon, or It, as in the Prestige Class? If the latter: A DM has the right to refuse any given Prestige Class from his games.
Twippie_Diggs 05-15-06, 10:30 AM	personally, i think you should continue to work with the DM and try to find a way for him to allow you to be a VOB, i mean its his choice whether you get it or not, then you ought to check with the party to see if they dont mind a detour, or setup a night with the dm for a solo adventure. but it all comes back to the dm, if he doesnt want you to have VOB i'd say move on and do something else with your char. if you had known that you were grooming your paly for VOB, you've could have saved your self some heartache by clearing it with the gm when you made him. secondly, is this a evil campaign or just everyone but you is evil? -edit- oh ya, and just continue to level normally, you dont want to fall behind the rest of the party
DrMorganes 05-15-06, 10:33 AM	You're looking for a HUGE fight here. Red dragons are the largest and most powerful of the chromatic dragons. An average adult has just over 250HP, AC of 29, and a host of minions guarding its (volcanic mountain) lair. Just getting to the dragon is an adventure in and of itself! With an average INT of 16, they're also well aware of their vulnerability to cold-based magic. It's a fair bet that by Adult age a red dragon has learned to protect itself from such magic, either by spell (they're innate sorcerers, remember, with crazy-high CHA scores) or by magic item. The CR for Dragons of all types are also inherantly underrated. CR15 for an adult red is probably closer to CR17 when properly played by the DM. All bets are OFF is your DM has access to the Draconomicon. There's enough stuff in that single sourcebook to ensure you never, ever encounter a dragon with the same abilities as another. Honestly, I never considered VoB to be much of a PC PrC... Certainly never before epic levels!
Nimbus 05-15-06, 06:19 PM	Except that V. of B. requires you to kill a juvinile red, not an adult. A much easier task altogether.
Edwind 05-15-06, 07:46 PM	My DM was happy about me becoming V.O.B, although I doubt he'd want to bust out a solo campaign cause it would be "too much work for him". We haven't played our next game yet so I have time to think of all these ways I could possibly get my hands on these magic items. Also, what are the stats for an orb of cold or whatever? It as in dragon, although looking at my character, I believe I have a fairly good chance. Almost as much AC if not more then it really helps. I almost have the same AC as an adult red so yay. Hitting it on the other hand could get tricky though seeing how even if I hit, my weapon wouldn't like do much damage, and I believe it could hit me alot more times then I could hit it. So I guess my option is touch spells/effects? quick little question, does making a touch attack prevoke AoO? Don't wanna look, just thought to find out.
Nimbus 05-16-06, 08:30 AM	Also, what are the stats for an orb of cold or whatever? Lesser orb of cold, there's an important difference. Orb of cold allows SR. You can find it in the Spell Compendium and Magic of Faerun. It's probably in the crystalkeep index aswell.