Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BobtheBiotitan 04-23-06, 10:04 PM	My character is a Halfling rogue. The only weapon that he will use is a dagger. Daggers aren't the best weapons out there, and his regular damage output is only 4 points per round. The only way that I have seen to overcome this is to be able to get my sneak attack every round. I have been thinking about going into the Invisible blade prestige class, or master thrower because each can do the above stated. I also want to take these classes because my DM loves to think of ways to deny me my sneak attack. I am level 3 and have yet to use it on anything. We have had 8 sessions with a combined gaming time of around 24 hours. Monster encounters have totaled 6. Are there any other ways of overcoming a low damage output? I would really like to not involve spellcasting, because my character does not like magic one bit. Another thing to thing about is this: My DM only allows ONE sneak attack a round even if the conditions are right. His thoughts are that after the initial attack the attacker is alerted to your presence. Anyone wanna give a stab at it?
Lord Ian Stark 04-23-06, 10:52 PM	You probrably have a higher DEX than STR so why not used a ranged weapon to do more damage?
BobtheBiotitan 04-23-06, 10:59 PM	The reason I do not use a ranged weapon is the fact that my character uses daggers. He uses daggers exclusively. He has at least 10 on his body at a time. This is all because of his backround/character. The thing I want help on is how to make him a more effective party member during combat. I am sorely lacking when it comes to damage. The average damage output for my fellow players is 8 while mine is trailing at 4. It is true that I hit more often because of Weapon finesse, but I have yet to actually kill a monster. I always "Weaken them up" for the fighter to smashes them in the face with a maul. I figure going for the most attacks possible is the best way to go. Either two weapon fighting, or the master thrower Prestige class would help me with that.
ressurrector 04-23-06, 11:09 PM	Flanking. Tumble. Tumble around or through enemies into a flanking position, and all attacks in the round get Sneak Attack dice vs the flanked target.
cutsleeve 04-23-06, 11:26 PM	Jump on his back grab him by the hair and stab away. Grab him by his legs and pull. Caltrops? Poison. Make him believe you have poison (purple dye on the blade). Marbles. Make a small scratch on the blade and apply water occassionally to make rust( that way youll have the knowledge that he may run away but he'll die in a few days anyhow). Miniature Pet Rust Monster. Riding dog that happens to be a rotwieler. Bigger Daggers. Hire a Bodyguard. Skill levels in bluff and a really good costume that makes you look like an insane man eating Halfling(not as good as an insane man eating dwarf but you have to work with what you have). Get a fork to go with your dagger and then just lick your lips when approaching an enemy. Snoopy Snow Cone Machine ( let the others fight while you relaxe and have a snowcone). Hostess fruit pies( just throw them at you enemies).
FlameLover 04-24-06, 12:36 AM	Your problem isn't the character - it's the DM. If your level 3 and haven't had one chance to SA yet, plus only 1 allowed per round - then slap the DM for me. And then you. And then for every other D&D player out there. My advice is to give the DM a choice. Either start giving you a chance to shine (inlucindg allowing more than one SA per round) or you'll have to make a new character. The DM has it in for rouges and I see no way to get around this besides what I said above.
Reversefigure4 04-24-06, 01:08 AM	Flanking. Tumble. Tumble around or through enemies into a flanking position, and all attacks in the round get Sneak Attack dice vs the flanked target. Bingo. Amp up your tumble skill, and use it to tumble past your opponents. With the other characters in the group doing decent damage, I'm guessing one of them must be a melee fighter. While he's slugging it out with the opponent, you tumble on past and throw your daggers into your opponent's back - it's flanking, you're within 30 feet, instant sneak attack. As a halfing rogue, you probably don't want to be slugging it out toe to toe in melee, especially with a dagger - plus, thrown daggers are cool. Consider Point Blank Shot to amp the damage a little more. My DM only allows ONE sneak attack a round even if the conditions are right. His thoughts are that after the initial attack the attacker is alerted to your presence. Methinks your DM has the wrong idea about what a sneak attack actually is. "Sneak" is simply the word used to describe it. It is NOT neccessarily catching your opponent by surprise (although that's one way to do it). It's catching your opponent in a vital spot. The idea is that while he's somehow distracted or unable to defend himself (surprised, flanked, vulnerable due to being prone and lying on the ground, etc), you stab out and hit a vital spot, like the jugular - hence the massive damage.
Edwind 04-24-06, 02:07 AM	Sounds like my ranged rogue, sept he's human so I guess he has a bit of an edge over you. My friend at the same problem when he made a halfling rogue, but of course he didn't use ranged. He used daggers, but he wouldn't throw them. He just ran up and stabbed away...I hated that rogue. I was actually planning on killing him until he came to me and we desided to kill the wizards cohort cause he was taking all our XP and money lol. But ANYWAY, go rogue5/invisible dagger 5/ master thrower5 Thats my ranged rogue build and he owns, once again you have to be working towards it from the start so you taking weapon finesse kinda puts a dent in it. and if you throw the daggers, don't you add your dex to the throw already? So you wouldn't really need to be taking WF now would you? Anyways my idea for your problem. Make sure you have a desent Int score too, or get a magic item so you get the invisible dagger AC bonus.
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-24-06, 03:08 AM	Your problem isn't the character - it's the DM. If your level 3 and haven't had one chance to SA yet, plus only 1 allowed per round - then slap the DM for me. And then you. And then for every other D&D player out there. Make sure to catch him when he's not expecting it so you get the added sneak attack damage. :devil: Maybe start off with a below-the-belt kick to stun and then slap him to demonstrate the viability of multiple sneak attacks per round. ;)
ressurrector 04-24-06, 03:16 AM	Explain to the DM that sneak attack is not really a "sneak attack" It's stabbing the enemy in a vulnerable spot whenever he is unable to defend himself. (When flanked or denied his dex to ac.) I refer to it as "stabbing them in the kidneys" myself.
Valthonis 04-24-06, 03:52 AM	Bingo. Amp up your tumble skill, and use it to tumble past your opponents. With the other characters in the group doing decent damage, I'm guessing one of them must be a melee fighter. While he's slugging it out with the opponent, you tumble on past and throw your daggers into your opponent's back - it's flanking, you're within 30 feet, instant sneak attack. Now I play 3.0, so correct me if it's been changen in 3.5, but dosen't a flanking attack need to be melee? if so then your thrown daggers won't do it. Other than that I'd agree completly. tumble around into flanking position and let em have it with your SA. If your DM dosen't let you have more than one SA, even if the conditions are met, sit down with him and show him just how much he nerfing your character in combat. You have lower BAB, HP and AC then the average fighter type of your level and your damage is going to be lower with more risk of your character being killed. As far as combat goes, SA is one of the few (if not only) things that makes you able to survive in melee. If he still won't listen to reason, sit down and think of how badly you want to play your rogue. It may be time to roll up a new character.
Flushmaster 04-24-06, 04:57 AM	A few PrCs and maybe an epic feat or such allow one to flank at range, but normally you're required to actually "threaten" your target, which requires a melee weapon. I think a Master Thrower (Complete Warrior) and maybe Halfling Rogue substitution levels (Races of the Wild) might allow one to threaten from ten feet (2 squares) away, and I might have seen some archery based PrC or epic feat that allows you to threaten adjacent foes with a bow, but that wouldn't apply here. I know that's a lot of "mights" and "I thinks" but it has been a while since I looked any of those things up. Either way, as is, your best bet is to go for sneak attacks. The easiest way is to tumble behind the opponent that your party's frontliner(s) is fighting and stab them in the back. No need to go far past them and throw, just stop when you're flanking and it's stabbity time with full sneak attack damage (unless the target is an undead, construct, ooze, plant, or otherwise somehow immune to critical hits, which also makes them immune to sneak attacks). Heck, you only provoke an AoO by leaving a threatened area, so if there aren't any other foes next to the target, don't even bother with tumbling. Remember that a flanked opponent gets a -2 penalty to AC, so it's easier to hit them. Also consider feinting, particularly if you have ranks in bluff: you make a bluff check against the target's sense motive check (a straight up wisdom check if they have no SM ranks) as a standard action (meaning no attacks for this round) and if you win then they're flat footed against your next attack, meaning you get sneak attack damage (unless, again, they're somehow immune). Don't forget that "flat footed" also means that they lose their dex bonus (if they have one) to AC, so they're likely also easier to hit this way. Also, if you and/or your party get the jump on your opponents (ie an ambush) then all opponents are flatfooted until their first actions, so you get sneak attack damage there, even with ranged attacks (ie a thrown dagger) as long as you're within 30 feet. If you see an enemy coming, just hide; a halfling rogue is likely to evade the spot checks of most opponents of appropriate CR and as long as they're within 30 feet that first attack you make is a sneak attack. Even if they're already fighting your party mates, if they're unaware of your presence then they're flatfooted to your attack. If your DM sends you up against nothing but undead, constructs, plant creatures, and oozes so that critical hits are impossible, then he's a dick and you should kick him in the nuts and then shoot him in the face repeatedly with a hammer.
kelvinaw273 04-24-06, 05:24 AM	You will need Two Weapon Fighting and then Dual Strike (Complete Adventurer). The latter allows you to make both attackas a sneak attack. Sadly, it is perfectly in keeping that only your first attack is a sneak attack. If somebody stuck you bad in back, you'd immediately (a) be aware of them and (b) not want them to do it twice! Hence the Dual Strike feat; it imposes a penalty on your attack chance, but both attacks sneak. Now, as to other options, there is a drow blade called a Drow Long knife (Races of Eberron) that is a long dagger that inflicts 1d6 damage and can be thrown or used in melee as a knife or dagger. Kukris are knives of a special sort with a good threat range. Master Thrower or Invisible Blade would help a lot in combat, in fact Invisible Blade is right down your character's street. The tactic of Tumble in, strike, and Tumble out works well. If you keep shifting position you should be able to get an attack each round. The feats Mobility, Spring attack etc. will be of great benefit as well. If you are going to be a rogue that focuses on combat, a few levels of fighter will get you a good BAB and some extra feats, even if you don't want the armour or weapon choices.
geekling 04-24-06, 05:47 AM	I can sympathise, my favourite character a gnome rogue/spellthief suffered much the same early on in the game. (Or well using the word suffer may be a missomer, I thourougly enjoyed the game even if she was fairly useless on the killing stuff front in those early days.) In fact her first kill ever was at lvl3, when she caught a rat by surprise. The next one wasn't until months later at lvl5.... On the other hand, once we left the lower levels, she's now one of the major damage dealers of the party. If the individual body-count per character is important to you. Just wait, bide your time, let the tanks have their glory now - it won't last long. So first of all, have patience. Small dex based characters take a while before they come into their own. But when they do, oh boy! they really do. Secondly, the individual body-count is absolutely immaterial, the party success is important. So even if you don't kill anything, you can still be devastatingly effective. Team work between you and a fighter, where you tumble in to aid him/her by flanking plus aid another in melee +2 to his attack and the fighter deals all the damage as with +4 on attack rolls it's pretty hard not to hit. Can be much more effective use of the party resources than you working seperatly to a little bit of damage each. Thirdly - did the DM announce that he had a house rule to totally gimp rogues before you chose to play one? If so, well tough luck - you made the choice to play a class that he obviously have some personal beef with. If not, hit him over the head with the PHB a few times. And make him read it. A sneak attack is not a surprise attack. A surprise attack is ONE of the conditions that lead to a sneak attack - but not the be all and end all of it. It's when you can sneak in an extra damaging attack because the opponent is unable to defend himself properly (denied dex to AC). But I'm sure you know all that stuff, so I don't have to preach it to you.
geekling 04-24-06, 06:45 AM	You will need Two Weapon Fighting and then Dual Strike (Complete Adventurer). The latter allows you to make both attackas a sneak attack. Sadly, it is perfectly in keeping that only your first attack is a sneak attack. If somebody stuck you bad in back, you'd immediately (a) be aware of them and (b) not want them to do it twice! Hence the Dual Strike feat; it imposes a penalty on your attack chance, but both attacks sneak. Emmm... How to say this. I think you'll find that you're wrong or have missunderstood the dual strike feat. Dual strike - read the bit labled Special: " When you make this attack, you apply precision-based damage (such as from sneak attack) only once." What dual strike does do is allow you to make both your TWF-attacks as a standard action, rather than as a full round action - ie. you still get your move action so you can tumble or move in and strike with both weapons in the same round. On the other hand, the description of your normal sneak attack, allows for both attacks while doing two weapon fighting to qualify for sneak attack damage as long as the criteria for sneak attack is fullfilled for both your primary and off hand attack. - The target is denied DEX bonus to AC (for both attacks) or flanked. Flanking - primary hand attack - target is flanked = sneak attack damage. Off hand attack, still flanked - no one has moved anywhere the target is still trying to fend off two guys trying to kill it = sneak attack damage. Prone - primary hand attack - target is prone = sneak attack damage. Off hand attack, still prone - still flat on the ground and unable to defend himself fully = sneak attack. Grappling someone that is no you... rince and repeat - the first attack with the primary hand does not change the condition of the target's defence. It's only really a few instances where that first attack will end the criteria for a sneak attack - such as an attack at a target that are unaware of you, or when feinting (as the feint specifically applies to your next melee attack - not your next round.) But then again - when it comes to surprise attacks, where you fullfill the criteria for a sneak attack due to the target being unaware of you and thus can not defend themselves fully, tend to involve a move action as well. Leaping out of cover to attack - leaving only a standard action for the attack and thus would not let you do more than a single attack anyhow. (unless you have the dual strike feat - but it'd only be one lot of sneak attack damage.) If it's a case of an invisibility spell - which can be paired with a full round attack. Get into position on round 1, round 2 is for a full round attack. - The spell ends with your first attack. As per the spell description. So no, the second attack you do not fullfill the criteria for a sneak attack. Compair with greater invisibility. Round 1 - get into position. Round 2 - Primary hand attack fullfill the criteria for sneak attack damage. But the attack does not end the spell - still invisible. Take a five foot step (you're allowed a 5 foot step during a full round). The target still can not defend himself as he might be aware of being attacked by an invisible foe. But the attack could come from any of the 5 squares threatening him that you could reach with a 5-foot step (if you count the one you attacked from as well... you don't have to move). Therefore your offhand attack still fullfull the criteria for sneak attack damage.
BobtheBiotitan 04-24-06, 06:49 AM	After I made the character I saw a thread on this website about getting multiple sneak attacks a round. I talked to my DM and he thought getting 40d6 damage per round with an optimal build is just plain ludacris. He "Interpreted' the rules differently. My only argument was 40d6 is nothing when compared to a wizard who could drop a quickened fireball and a non quickened one. Its the same amount of damage except the wizard gets to affect multiple targets. I think I will have yet another talk with my dm.
geekling 04-24-06, 07:06 AM	I think I will have yet another talk with my dm. Sounds like a good plan. Yes 40d6 sneak attack damage in one round is a whole lot of damage if you can manage to land it. But when you get to that stage, you're talking about what? a19th level character? and ludicrous amounts of damage is to be expected. The question is what are you fighting at that level, and put it into perspective of the amounts of HP and AC those guys have. It's not like you're going to be up against kobolds to a great wyrms 40d6 of damage is hardly more than a flesh wound.
ashcat_lt 04-24-06, 11:06 PM	I'd just like to mention a few things. Being prone does not necessarily allow SA damage. It does not deny the creature Dex to AC, just imposes a penalty to it's AC vs melee attacks. There is, in fact, no way in WOTC books to threaten any area with a thrown dagger. While holding the dagger, you do threaten the area within your natural reach, but you can not get "ranged flanking" with a dagger. There is a PrC which allows this with a bow, but nothing for throwers, sorry. Master Thrower does have sneaky throw, which is the next best thing. I think your DM's concern is a little unfounded. Problem is, to do all that SA damage you have to hit with every attack, far from likely... Rogues are good for a whole lot of things. The least of these is combat. Especially if you want to gimp yourself by refusing to use useful weapons, you'll have to just find something else to do. Use your skills to help the party as much as you can, and when trouble comes, go hide behind... I mean guard... the mage and let the big people take all the whacks.
geekling 04-25-06, 03:56 AM	Being prone does not necessarily allow SA damage. It does not deny the creature Dex to AC, just imposes a penalty to it's AC vs melee attacks. Inded, you are correct. Thank you.
BW0222 04-25-06, 04:26 AM	Two weapon fighting, rapid shot, and quick draw. Toss out 3 or 4 daggers per round. 4d3+4*str adds up and crits come out a lot. If you are in melee, use TWF and try for flanking and or sneak attack. Try getting a flaming or frost dagger. At least you do 1d3+1d6+1+str. Try poison if you are evil.
BobtheBiotitan 04-25-06, 08:40 PM	I just ran some numbers trying to figure out my max damage at 20th level. I dont' mean to derail my own thread, but to me 500 average damage in one round is a little much. I dont want quite that much. I agree with the person stating the TWF and Rapid shot. That is what I am going to take next level. I'm taking fighter at lvl 3. After that I will go with quickdraw so I can get out more than 1 attack a round throwing. (1 throw as a standard, drawing 1 dagger is a move), unless I am holding two at one time of course. I came to these conclusions today before I checked up on this thread. Thanks for the help. Anyone else want to chime in?
Count Arioch the 28th 04-25-06, 09:13 PM	You're not going to get that much damage in one round. you might hit with two attacks at the most, going TWF. I'm speaking from my experiences DMing rogues at high level play, they have troubkle hitting with their second and third set of attacks.
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-25-06, 09:14 PM	Yeah, that you're not going to do 500 average damage per round. Look at your BAB. Now look at the armor class on, say, a balor demon (35 if you can't be arsed to pick the book up). At high levels you're not going to be hitting consistently against things of an appropriate CR. Try figuring out average damage taking into account average number of times you'll actually land your attacks, tiger. ;) Oh, and remember: average doesn't equal max. 1d4 average = 2.5 1d6 average = 3.5. 1d8 average = 4.5. 1d10 average = 5.5. 1d12 average = 6.5. 1d20 average = 10.5. 1d100 average = 50.5. Did I miss any die types?
Edwind 04-25-06, 09:16 PM	It could just be me but I do believe you can sneak attack up to 30ft away. I could be wrong but I just remember reading it in PHB or in another D&D book...
Duration_10_Rounds 04-25-06, 09:29 PM	Well its not going to be 500 when you figure in: Your lower BAB attacks probably wont hit a lot, MANY eneimes at that level wont be elagable for sneak attacks (which makes you damage SUCK!), DR Average = HALF! of max ... or the fact a lvl 10(ish) enemy can insta-kill you in 1 spell.... As a rogue your best save is Ref... thats handy at low levels (fireballs, etc)... BUT the nasty-pasties are the Will saves based spells and to a lesser extent the fort saves. So basicly at level 20 you wont hit much and what you will hit will be mostly immune to your sneak damage.... the rogues life aint looking so peachy now is it ;)
BobtheBiotitan 04-25-06, 09:31 PM	Are you sure about the whole hitting predicament? The way I am taking my character I can imagine myself easily hitting with two attacks, normally hitting with one, and rarely hitting with the last. If you take into account TWF or Rapid Shot then things change a bit. My character currently has +10 to hit at 2nd level. The way I will take my character will at least have him at +16/+11/+6/+1 BAB. Lets take a look shall we? BAB:+16/+11/+6/+1 Bonuses +10 from dex(20 dex+4 abilitiy raises+6 from gloves of dex) +1 from Point Blank shot +1 from halfling bonus to throw +1 from being small +5 from magic weapon(8 +5 daggers of returning) That alone gives you +34/+29/+24/+19 If you add in Rapid shot then you have +32/+32/+27+22+17 Adding in TWF, ITWf, and GTWF to Rapid shot +30/+30/+30/+27/+25/+22/+20/+15 The only attacks that I would be iffy for hitting would be the +25/+22/+20/+15 Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Yes. Rogues can't hit? Its a myth I tell you. :D If it proved nothing to you then I would have you know that it proved something to me. I probably missed a few ways of upping the attack even more, but didn't take the time to look thoroughly.
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-25-06, 09:37 PM	+5 from magic weapon(8 +5 daggers of returning) :rofl: I like how the kid assumes that he's going to get away with investing 578,416 gp of a 20th level character's expected 760,000 gp in money AND gear including expendables and found/traded loot that only sells back for half value over the entirety of his career, on just these 8 daggers, and that they won't be sundered, stolen, or lost when he throws them and finds he has to flee before he can retrieve them, and that he can survive with only what's left over for the rest of his gear, if any. I also like how he assumes he's going to manage 62.5 damage average per attack and land them all. More optimistic than I thought. ;)
a_psh 04-25-06, 11:03 PM	Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Yes. Rogues can't hit? Its a myth I tell you. :D If it proved nothing to you then I would have you know that it proved something to me.8 +5 returning daggers? That's basically all your resources put into attacking to get something like 500 points of damage against one target. Ranged sneak attack means you have to find ways other than flanking (e.g. denying the enemy's Dex bonus) to be effective. But, still, yeah, a fairly reliable attack... Now compare that to a well-done nova and you'll cry.
Rolof 04-28-06, 09:55 AM	I'm no good at the whole optimization thing like some folks on these boards, for one thing I'm an old school player; of the days when a fighter with a 2handed sword at 7th level with weapon specialization and a strength bonus did about as much damage as could be done sans magic. So I can't really advise you on what to do for long term whoop-butt megadamage. But if you're just looking to feel more useful in the shortrun and tired of feeling piddly with your d4-I would first of all advise point blank shot. Sounds like you're mostly throwing your daggers anyway, and most thrown daggers are going from short range, so you get the extra plus 1 there. And if you're willing to multiclass, then go fighter and get weapon specialization: dagger, same thing applies there for +2 with the limitation of 30 ft or less. You've already got the right idea with increasing your number of attacks with rapid shot so I'd go with combining all the above as soon as you can. If melee attacks are more to your liking, there is a feat that is called 'dirty fighting' that adds 1d4 to your damage; Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +2 Benefit: Make a melee attack roll normally. If successful, you inflict an additional +1d4 points of damage. This feat requires the full attack action. That might be a good option for you to get in a little extra damage if you feel like your DM is nerfing your sneak attack ability.
Kikoskia 04-28-06, 01:33 PM	Are you sure about the whole hitting predicament? The way I am taking my character I can imagine myself easily hitting with two attacks, normally hitting with one, and rarely hitting with the last. If you take into account TWF or Rapid Shot then things change a bit. My character currently has +10 to hit at 2nd level. The way I will take my character will at least have him at +16/+11/+6/+1 BAB. Lets take a look shall we? BAB:+16/+11/+6/+1 Bonuses +10 from dex(20 dex+4 abilitiy raises+6 from gloves of dex) +1 from Point Blank shot +1 from halfling bonus to throw +1 from being small +5 from magic weapon(8 +5 daggers of returning) That alone gives you +34/+29/+24/+19 If you add in Rapid shot then you have +32/+32/+27+22+17 Adding in TWF, ITWf, and GTWF to Rapid shot +30/+30/+30/+27/+25/+22/+20/+15 The only attacks that I would be iffy for hitting would be the +25/+22/+20/+15 Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Yes. Rogues can't hit? Its a myth I tell you. :D If it proved nothing to you then I would have you know that it proved something to me. I probably missed a few ways of upping the attack even more, but didn't take the time to look thoroughly. One problem. You have to be able to catch all the daggers again otherwise they'll just fall on the floor nearby. And if memory serves, a halfling only has two hands.
Arbitrary Aardvark 05-23-06, 05:10 PM	It could just be me but I do believe you can sneak attack up to 30ft away. I could be wrong but I just remember reading it in PHB or in another D&D book... You don't count as flanking, so the only way you can get a sneak attack in that situation is if the opponent is flat-footed, or otherwise denied DEX bonus.
Sphyre 05-24-06, 12:18 AM	because my DM loves to think of ways to deny me my sneak attack. http://www.geocities.com/sphyre_san/smile/shoothammer.txt
Cifer 05-24-06, 04:45 AM	Round 2 - Primary hand attack fullfill the criteria for sneak attack damage. But the attack does not end the spell - still invisible. Take a five foot step (you're allowed a 5 foot step during a full round). The target still can not defend himself as he might be aware of being attacked by an invisible foe. But the attack could come from any of the 5 squares threatening him that you could reach with a 5-foot step (if you count the one you attacked from as well... you don't have to move). Therefore your offhand attack still fullfull the criteria for sneak attack damage. Actually, you don't even need to move - a 5 feet square is pretty much space to stand in. Your opponent possibly knows where you might stand (he can attack into the square with only 50% miss chance), but since rogues tend to attack with nimble weapons, the exact place where your first strike hit tells the opponent nothing about your next. Picture it: You get on your knees and try to cut his hamstrings - his sword moves down in an attempt to parry - you stand up and go for his neck - he pulls up his shield - you dive under his guard and strike for his unprotected armpit. He basically receives no optic warning where your next blow might land.
MongooseWarrior 05-24-06, 01:01 PM	Burst weapons?? Do an extra 1d12 normal attack, crit 2d12 I dunno jus throwin it out there :)
Pangeon 05-24-06, 05:41 PM	Befriend the party's arcane spellcaster. 'Invisibility,' anyone? Imagine: a 4th level wild elf sorcerer with 5 2nd level spells per day, and the only one he knows is 'Invisibility.' Oh, it's nice. When you get the gold, buy some slippers of spider climbing and scout ahead, invisible, and on the celing. Would make for great fun, and a surprised opponent can't very well react to sneak attacks from the screaming/stabbing halfling who suddenly appeared on their head. It's all about controling the situation. Oh, and +1 Vorpal Daggers of Venom might help. :D Edit: Actually, Daggers of Venom are scary. My 5th level rogue did roughly 70 damage with one attack to a 9th level fighter (including CON damage,) with one. Poison works reaaaaly well.
Iry 05-24-06, 07:58 PM	Get Flick of the Wrist. It works great with your dagger setup. You just walk up to an enemy and Flick him. Next round you walk up to someone else and Flick them. Every round, you slam a dagger into somebody and move on. A round should not go by that you didn't slam somebody with a dagger. Of course, you'll want to increase your ability to absorb attacks of opportunity otherwise you'll be spending undo time just playing it safe and looking for an angle to slip in. Your first priority purchase should be some kind of Custom Magic Bandoleer that enchants your daggers by +1 for a single round when you draw them.
Aldarionn 05-24-06, 09:02 PM	You're not going to get that much damage in one round. you might hit with two attacks at the most, going TWF. I'm speaking from my experiences DMing rogues at high level play, they have troubkle hitting with their second and third set of attacks. This is just simply incorrect. I've played several Rogues and one at higher levels, and there are things you can do to make it easier to hit, especially when sneak attacking, which becomes less of a problem when you are a 19th level Rogue and go into the Tactical Soldier prestige class from the miniatures handbook (you get nothing for being a 20th level Rogue). Consider the following build: Rogue 19/Tactical Soldier 1 (human) BAB +15/+10/+5 Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (shortsword), Weapon Finesse, Deadly Prescision (I think those were all the prerequisites for being a Tactical Soldier. I know it was only 2 feats though, and I think it was Dodge and Pwer Attack, I can check later when I have time) Anyway, you have an 18 into Dex, 5 points into it from leveling, a +6 item, and a +5 inherant bonus from a manual which equals out to 34 Dex (+12 bonus). You also have pair of +5, Mage Bane, Swords of Subdlety (From the DMG, +4 attack and damage when making a sneak attack, and against anything with arcane spells, or spell like abilities, you have a further +2 to attack). So, add it all up and you end up with +15 BAB -2 for TWF +12 from Dex +5 weapon, +2 flanking +4 from the Sword of Subdlety +1 from Focus = +37/+32/+27 with each hand against creatures that DONT have Arcane spells or spell like abilities. Against the Balor mentioned earlier in this thread you have a +39/+34/+29 and you hit him on anything but a 1 with 4 of your attacks, and a 6 with your last two attacks. Sneak attack damage is not filtered out by DR IIRC, so you are dealing 60d6 per round and rerolling 1's (deadly presicion feat), plus the d6 from your weapon, streingth, and Mage Bane if it applicable. That's a TON of damage. (average is 210 from Sneak Attack alone, not counting Deadly Presicion) The reason for going into Tactical Soldier is because at first level you get the Flanker ability, which lets you chose any square you threaten, and count as being in that square for purposes of flanking, meaning you pretty much have to TRY not to flank if you have an ally nearby. The point is, don't discount Rogues as being unable to hit at level 20 with most of their attacks. With the right build (and that build isn't even broken, I could make FAR more broken builds if I had time) and the right feat selection/weapon selection you can easily make a Rogue effective in combat. Aldarionn
MindLich 05-24-06, 09:29 PM	Hey, I got an idea, but I'm not sure if it will work. Tell your DM that since you LOVE daggers that you would like to spice it up a little by creating a special Crossbow that would fire Daggers, Throwing Dagger etc. It could be fun and you could up your damage output to a d6 or d8.
freelancer_bob 05-25-06, 07:19 AM	You can THROW daggers. No need for weapon finesse, and no need to get close. DM being a dick about sneak attack? Try talking to him. Little things like game balance, fairness, and why he let you play a rogue at all if he was gonna slap you down for trying to actually use the class's ONLY offensive capacity.
kelvinaw273 05-25-06, 09:08 AM	After I made the character I saw a thread on this website about getting multiple sneak attacks a round. I talked to my DM and he thought getting 40d6 damage per round with an optimal build is just plain ludacris. He "Interpreted' the rules differently. My only argument was 40d6 is nothing when compared to a wizard who could drop a quickened fireball and a non quickened one. Its the same amount of damage except the wizard gets to affect multiple targets. I think I will have yet another talk with my dm. If it is Raven Dark's posting, forget it. RD believed that using the Adaptive Flanker feat from PHB II and using a ten-foot reach weapon (kusari-gama, and he wanted to dual wield it too - I won't even go there) he could designate the threatened square as behind the person he was fighting and sneak attack each time because between himnself and the threatened square he had them flanked. His idea falls down because you can only be in one place at a time, and you cannot be your own ally with respect to flanking. Add that to the fact that the kusari-gama is a badly described weapon in the DMG (I have used one for real, I know- it takes both hands and you cannot in any way shape or form dual-wield it) and the description of Sneak Attack which states that you only get a sneak attack when your enemy is not able to defend themselves effectively and you can pick a vital spot to strike, and you start to see why this does not and cannot work. The only way you can sneak attack every round with daggers is to do a feint and attack (max out your bluff skill), and you will get a sneak attack every round. Save your second dagger for two-weapon defence to up your AC, or use it for throwing at close range. You can use the kusari-gama or kusari-fundo as a sneak-attack weapon as follows: The weapon has a ten-foot reach (gama is chain, fundo is weighted-rope) so as an enemy approaches you make an AoO to trip/grapple them with the chain/rope. Once they are down, move in to finish them with the kusari end of the weapon - they are prone, so you should be able to full attack after a 5' move with full sneak-attack. The kusari is a kama according to the DMG, but in reality this is only on a kusari-fundo, on a true kusari-gama it is a weapon halfway to being a scythe and was weilded two-handed for added power inthese circumstances.
Pangeon 05-26-06, 11:16 PM	If it is Raven Dark's posting, forget it. RD believed that using the Adaptive Flanker feat from PHB II and using a ten-foot reach weapon (kusari-gama, and he wanted to dual wield it too - I won't even go there) he could designate the threatened square as behind the person he was fighting and sneak attack each time because between himnself and the threatened square he had them flanked. And this is relevant... how? "OMGZ he thought this, he's sooooo stupid, everything he says, ever, is wrong!" Anyway, most of the stuff he posts is made up anyway, he just does it to study people's reactions.