Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fanged Fremont 02-02-06, 04:40 PM	One of the players in a gestalt campaign I play in is min/maxing his character to have an ac of around 70 and saves through the roof. To help our somewhat inexperienced DM fight this monster, I've decided to ask you all for help. With uncanny dodge the guy is never flat footed and only loses a max of 11 ac while not fighting defensively. The vast majority of his AC applies to his touch AC as well so wraithstrike and touch spells are no good. His saves will be pretty good since this is gestalt, dipping into a dozen classes, and he'll be getting a plus 5 to them all from his 20 cha and hexblade. So save or die spells are pretty much ousted as well. Baring someone rolling a 20 on an attack roll or him rolling a 1 on a save, how can somebody effect this guy? The only weakness I see with him is his 12 str.
kraegor 02-02-06, 04:53 PM	Magic Missle. to the extreme. Twinned, Maximized, empowered magic missles or something. No saves, auto hits. Harm will still hurt him for 100 damage after a will save from a 20th level caster Holy Word (blind, deaf, paralyzed) have no saving throw. If you throw a 25th level caster at him and he is 20, he is paraylzed for 1d10 minutes (nasty I know, but.. evil yes) Ice Storm (saving throw none) 3d6 bludgeoning and 2d6 cold damage Insect Plague (saving throw none) swarms of insects attack him Irresistable Dance (no saving throw) subject looses -4 ac, negates shield bonuses, and -10 reflex saves (then you can throw some lightningbolts at him) This was only looking at H-I of the SRD of magic spells. I imagine you can find lots, lots more :)
Fanged Fremont 02-02-06, 04:56 PM	*Slaps Forhead* Of course, magic missle. It's so basic I overlooked it.
Gnomes_are_Monsters 02-02-06, 06:16 PM	The DM hits when he wants to hit, besides the DM sets the save DC, so basicly you cannot outsmart or outbuild your DM. So what to do; Slap the player with a hammer and tell him to make a character that is fun to play and fun to play with.
Radijs 02-02-06, 06:22 PM	SorcerorX/fatespinner5 Make a whatever save. But I've heightened the spell to lvl 9, added 5 spin points to increase the DC even more. I'm sealing your fate. Make the save with a -10 penalty. Better throw that natural 20 if you want to make it. Made it? No you have to roll again.
MoogleEmpMog 02-02-06, 06:48 PM	First off, what offensive options does he have? Buff the party? A particular combat schtick? If he's harmless but invincible, he's basically just a cleric with an impenetrable sanctuary spell and no worry to anyone. However, assuming he is, in fact, dangerous, give him a kraken to chew on. A 44 hit dice kraken is CR 20, with an attack bonus of +57 for its primary attacks, +55 for its secondary attacks. The important thing is that it attacks nine times per round. If it hits just once, it grapples, and it wins. End of problem. If you were REALLY evil, you could always use the Paragon Half-Dragon Half-Fiend Half-Troll Pseudonatural Awakened Kraken of Legend Skeleton Monk 20. It's only a CR 20 creature. Honest. :evillaugh
tak3thatback 02-02-06, 07:29 PM	A Great Wurm Force Dragon Base attack: +99 AC: 102 Rawr!
Otto the Bugbear 02-02-06, 07:31 PM	Go around him and attack the other party members. Any foe with half a brain, or any foe that's seen him in action, knows to -- or will learn to -- stop even trying. Swarms of low hit die creatures. A 20 still hits. If he gets attacked 40 times in a battle, he'll get hit. Of course, that's not much damage, but still. Swarms ignore armor, don't they? Stop targeting him with spells that allow a save. Traps. 200' pit traps. With spikes at the bottom. And poison on the spikes. And acid below the spikes. Flammable acid. :devil: Cheers Otto :)
kraegor 02-02-06, 08:11 PM	Traps. 200' pit traps. With spikes at the bottom. And poison on the spikes. And acid below the spikes. Flammable acid. Its true what they say.. pit traps always hit. You forgot the flesh eating leeches that are immune to fire and acid that swim around near the spikes.
trapspringer 02-02-06, 08:56 PM	...and the two-ton marble block cut to exactly the size and shape of the pit trap.
trapspringer 02-02-06, 09:00 PM	Oh, and poison that will knock his strength down will likely leave him severely burdened if he is an AC build heavy with armor. Food pwns.
Tyler Do'Urden 02-02-06, 09:13 PM	Depending on how much of his AC is armor type stuff and how much of his AC is dodgy type stuff, you might try psychic warriors with Deep Impact, monk/clerics with antimagic field, and lots and lots of acid fog (no attack roll, no save, no spell resistance).
BlueFlames 02-02-06, 09:54 PM	Let's not forget swarms. All they have to do is occupy his space to deal damage. Granted, the nausea and any effects unique to the particular swarm will probably be rendered worthless, but they'll be able to chew away his hitpoints. Don't forget that they can hide quite easily, given their size modifiers to the skill. It's always memorable when hell wasps start pouring out of holes in the walls as you enter a room.
ShadowDragon8685 02-02-06, 09:55 PM	Drop him down a 30 foot pit trap. A 30 foot pit trap that promptly seals shut, airtight shut, and has about 10 Cloudkills (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cloudkill.htm) and a Transmute Rock to Lava (Spell Compendium) affect the bottom of the pit. So he's standing waist-deep in liquid-hot magma, and taking 10d6/2 CON damage per round. Failing that, introduce him to an 11th level Kobold (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801&page=1&pp=50)/ The One.
firduvin 02-02-06, 10:29 PM	Failing that, introduce him to an 11th level Kobold (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801&page=1&pp=50)/ The One. Shadowdragon check him out again they made THE ONE a 5th level kobold!
Mr_Smiley 02-02-06, 11:32 PM	He's a munchkin, so he has most likely left his charisma as a dump stat yes? If so, hit him with a few psions with Ego Whip (a level 2 power that can be augmented). 19th level psions can deal 5d4 Cha damage per manifestation, and even though you can save for half, it's still an average of 6 damage when he saves. Get him to 0 Cha and put that munchkin into a coma!
ShadowDragon8685 02-03-06, 01:26 AM	Shadowdragon check him out again they made THE ONE a 5th level kobold! Yes, but it's more classic to do it at level eleven.
Jherid 02-03-06, 05:26 PM	If so, hit him with a few psions with Ego Whip (a level 2 power that can be augmented). 19th level psions can deal 5d4 Cha damage per manifestation, and even though you can save for half, it's still an average of 6 damage when he saves. It's likely he took at least three levels of Hexblade (since the OP said he has the Arcane Resistance ability) which means he has Mettle so he'd take no charisma damage if he saved.
Good Agnostic 02-03-06, 05:39 PM	You said you were trying to help your "rather inexperienced DM." The real problem here is that a "rather inexperienced DM" should not be allowing Gestalt characters. This new DM should allow CORE BOOKS ONLY. CBO! Yes, the PHB, DMG, and MMI. And absolutely nothing else. He should run a full campaign with just that. Then another campaign where he allows in the Complete Series. And another where he allows Psionics. THEN, then he should think about letting the optimization monkeys in.
SargonnasZ 02-03-06, 06:00 PM	First off, what offensive options does he have? Buff the party? A particular combat schtick? If he's harmless but invincible, he's basically just a cleric with an impenetrable sanctuary spell and no worry to anyone. However, assuming he is, in fact, dangerous, give him a kraken to chew on. A 44 hit dice kraken is CR 20, with an attack bonus of +57 for its primary attacks, +55 for its secondary attacks. The important thing is that it attacks nine times per round. If it hits just once, it grapples, and it wins. End of problem. If you were REALLY evil, you could always use the Paragon Half-Dragon Half-Fiend Half-Troll Pseudonatural Awakened Kraken of Legend Skeleton Monk 20. It's only a CR 20 creature. Honest. :evillaugh Explain how that is only a challenge rating of 20? That makes no sense. The CR bonus from paragon would be +15, half dragon +1, half fiend +3 because of the krakens standard HD, pseudonatural would be +13, not to mention the kraken itself is a CR of 12, and the 20 levels of monk?... Come on dude think before you post more rambling garbage like that. Further more, you can not have all of those templates mixed together. I hate stupid posts.
Louist 02-03-06, 07:38 PM	Explain how that is only a challenge rating of 20? That makes no sense. The CR bonus from paragon would be +15, half dragon +1, half fiend +3 because of the krakens standard HD, pseudonatural would be +13, not to mention the kraken itself is a CR of 12, and the 20 levels of monk?... Come on dude think before you post more rambling garbage like that. Further more, you can not have all of those templates mixed together. I hate stupid posts. You sir, utterly lack a sense of humor. Or perhaps you have not yet learned when someone is be cheeky and/or sarcastic. I had a good laugh at it, as did, I am sure, most others who read it. If you were REALLY evil, you could always use the Paragon Half-Dragon Half-Fiend Half-Troll Pseudonatural Awakened Kraken of Legend Skeleton Monk 20. It's only a CR 20 creature. Honest. :evillaugh I mean really... "Honest. Muahahaha" C'mon man!
SargonnasZ 02-04-06, 01:15 AM	You sir, utterly lack a sense of humor. I don't lack a sense of humor, and I do understand the sarcasm. However, its not funny, its not clever, and for you to think so makes you worse them him because your leading him to believe its funny. Sure i can pick a random creature out of the monster manual and give it the majority of the templates in the game but it is practical, logical, or funny.... just a waste of space and time.
Louist 02-04-06, 01:22 AM	Meh, a little humor (at least in my view) is always welcome. To me you came off as either totally clueless or just a troll looking to spread grief. I apologize for escalating matters.
wonlee76 02-04-06, 02:22 AM	Honestly, first thing you should do (or your DM) is make sure the fellow is adding on bonuses properly. Like kind bonuses don't stack and all that stuff. (Bracers of armor do not stack with AC bonus from a chain shirt for example). Presuming this guy still has an AC in the 60s or 70s, then the DM should get as munchy as the PC. Gestalt enemies dipping into the right prestige classes and stuff. Its a lot of work but its already suggested in UA that in a gestalt campaign, most of the major baddies should also follow gestalt rules. I find advancing monster HD gets a better turn out on CR advancement then strictly adding class levels. (2 HD increase for an outsider/dragon increases CR by +1). Its a pain to do but use demons/devils/celestial type creatures and advance their HD until their abilities and capabilities give them a reasonable shot at trying to hit the guy. Finaly suggestion: If there really isn't any good way to put enemies that have a feasible shot at hitting the guy, put in lots of weenie monsters and rely on the natural 20. Eventually one of those d20s will roll a natural 20.
MoogleEmpMog 02-04-06, 02:39 AM	Explain how that is only a challenge rating of 20? That makes no sense. The CR bonus from paragon would be +15, half dragon +1, half fiend +3 because of the krakens standard HD, pseudonatural would be +13, not to mention the kraken itself is a CR of 12, and the 20 levels of monk?... Come on dude think before you post more rambling garbage like that. Further more, you can not have all of those templates mixed together. I hate stupid posts. You sir, are bloody well wrong. So am I, albeit in a fairly minor way: It's CR 21, because it has to be awakened for it to work. There's no RAW limit to the number of templates you can stack. As the designers have said many, many times, the "half-" templates do not have to represent actual half-bloods. Now, to WHY this monstrosity is only CR 21. It has 20 hit dice to begin with, and none of the templates added, which do indeed add +32 CR, give it even one more hit dice. They do, however, increase its Strength and Dexterity, which, in this case, is ALL they'll do. Because the skeleton template bases the CR *purely* off of hit dice - NOT stats. When it dies and becomes a skeleton, our unfortunate CR 44 kraken becomes a CR 10 creature. It is then awakened, with an awaken undead spell, which, IIRC, adds +1 CR. It then takes 20 levels of monk, which is presumably a non-associated class for krakens (if you consider it an associated class, sub in cleric or wizard for even more brokenness), which add +10 to its CR. If you want to keep it CR 20, you need add a *mere* 18 levels of your class of choice. Come on, "dude," think before you post more rambling garbage like that. Further more, furthermore is one word. I hate uninformed posts. ;)
MoogleEmpMog 02-04-06, 03:12 AM	You sir, utterly lack a sense of humor. Or perhaps you have not yet learned when someone is be cheeky and/or sarcastic. I had a good laugh at it, as did, I am sure, most others who read it. I mean really... "Honest. Muahahaha" C'mon man! Actually, although I intended it for humorous effect (like the omnipotent Pun-Pun who is far greater than he/she/it, the Skeletal Kraken is not intended for use in a serious game). it honestly IS a valid creature. It's funny (or at least moreso) because it's true. :)
Ceirnian 02-04-06, 05:33 AM	MoogleEmpMog pretty much just won the thread.
Silverthumb128 02-04-06, 07:08 AM	If you were REALLY evil, you could always use the Paragon Half-Dragon Half-Fiend Half-Troll Pseudonatural Awakened Kraken of Legend Skeleton Monk 20. It's only a CR 20 creature. Honest. :evillaugh Skeleton? Go with Bone. Skeletons would lose non-magical flight, skills, and feats. No bueno, muy no bueno. And add on Corrupted. Vile templates rock. :D Eat my evil. :D :D :D
MoogleEmpMog 02-04-06, 12:49 PM	Skeleton? Go with Bone. Skeletons would lose non-magical flight, skills, and feats. No bueno, muy no bueno. And add on Corrupted. Vile templates rock. :D Eat my evil. :D :D :D I'm not familiar with the Bone template (Libris Mortis, perhaps?). I was going purely off of templates available to the op free via the System Reference Document; otherwise I would have suggested a reptillian, insectile, winged, paragon, pseudonatural, woodling, paragon, half-dragon, half-fiend, vile, half-celestial, fiendish, corrupted, celestial, pseudonatural (lesser), farspawn kraken of legend skeleton Monk 20. :cool: Is Bone based entirely off of the creature's hit dice, rather than applying a flat CR adjustment? Because that's the entire point of the creature being structured this way.
Father Tim 02-04-06, 04:59 PM	Green slime, DMG pg 76, a CR 4 "encounter" - no roll needed to hit, simple d6 CON damage (no save) per 5' square he comes in contact with. Be cruel, dump him in a pit of five 5' squares of slime (floor plus four walls), or be extra cruel and dump him in a hexagonal pit of seven 5' squares (tell him it's an old map, drawn on hex-paper).
Otto the Bugbear 02-05-06, 10:58 AM	When it dies and becomes a skeleton Ironically enough, the Kraken is an invertebrate, and thus has no skeleton. Though the rules don't account for this annoying fact. Does this mean we can take dead oozes and make them skeletal as well? Or dead invisible stalkers and make them skeletal? :P It's a strange, strange, strange, strange, strange game. Cheers Otto :D
kraegor 02-05-06, 10:32 PM	Aren't krakens assumed to have exoskeletons? If they are then they can be used as skeletal creatures, if not they have to be used as zombies, or they will just fall apart to flopping cartiledge.
Timlagor 02-06-06, 04:57 AM	It sounds like this guy is much tougher than the rest of the party. There are really only three sensible options: 1) Give the other party members some major magic items (or non-item plot effects) to catch up. 2) Advise your DM to just make the character go off on his own and leave the campaign. 3) Abolish the campaign completely (preferably with a nice satisfying session) and start again at Level 1 (with CORE rules). Anything that is just designed to hit this character will either kill the rest of the party or cause bad feeling between players. Don't do it.
Xeviat-DM 02-06-06, 05:26 AM	Wait till he's sleeping; coup de grace always hits, and when it's from a half-orc greater wearwolf, power attack 10, with a scythe, it deals 126 damage (I kid you not, that happened on a crit between PCs while they were fighting each other). The army of mages with magic missile was fun too. Technically skeletal won't work on a Kraken; squid have one bone in their body and it's a little ridge in their head. Now, you could make them zombie ... which have a lower CR per HD ratio than skeleton does. But the krakan skeleton is more ironic. Kudoes for the rules lawyering, you make me proud.
Anguirus23 02-06-06, 10:03 AM	Default The DM hits when he wants to hit, besides the DM sets the save DC, so basicly you cannot outsmart or outbuild your DM. Ah, my favorite kind of DM. "He hits you because I SAY he hits you." :rolleyes:
Asciiman 02-06-06, 01:12 PM	You said you were trying to help your "rather inexperienced DM." The real problem here is that a "rather inexperienced DM" should not be allowing Gestalt characters. This new DM should allow CORE BOOKS ONLY. CBO! Yes, the PHB, DMG, and MMI. And absolutely nothing else. He should run a full campaign with just that. Then another campaign where he allows in the Complete Series. And another where he allows Psionics. THEN, then he should think about letting the optimization monkeys in. SOMEBODY finally gets it right.
Solidcobra 02-06-06, 01:32 PM	...so, why psionics and 'then' let the opti-monkeys in? Sheesh. Psionics...*shakes head slowly* ah well. i agree with the base idea. a good try. now let's correct it. A new DM should begin with only the core rulebooks, then slowly add splatbooks such as the complete *X* series of the *X* of *Y* 3.0 books as he feels more comfortable. even further down the line, he might feel like adding either of the alignment books, maybe some of the enviroment books, or heroes of *X*... and then, maybe, after all that is added and the munchkins are having a field day anyway, you might as well let psionics in if you feel like it. But psionics is the most commonly hated and ignored rulebook in D&D for a reason.
Balor von Balorvitch 02-06-06, 01:51 PM	If you were REALLY evil, you could always use the Paragon Half-Dragon Half-Fiend Half-Troll Pseudonatural Awakened Kraken of Legend Skeleton Monk 20. It's only a CR 20 creature. Honest. :evillaugh Tip of the hat! :tiphat: PS: IF you had 2 Pun Puns could you breed them? LOL.
Kresalak 02-06-06, 03:32 PM	But psionics is the most commonly hated and ignored rulebook in D&D for a reason. Psionics is not broken. It is not overpowered. I shall now be giving you a bunch of links proving this. Myth: the XPH is Overpowered (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253). Myth: the XPH is Overpowered II (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=416446).
keith187 02-06-06, 05:07 PM	A rather fun way to do him in, as long as he's inside underground or it happens at night, is to have some oozemasters with brown mold attack the party. Have the ooze master keep the brown mold in a bag with some alchemists fire then throw the bag and bang you have one big patch of brown mold. Another fun thing to do it to put a Gelatinous cube, that doesn't have anything in it so its nearly transparent, right on the other side of a door or have it inbetween some enemies and the party anyone who runs into it is going to get engulfed. If he depends on his armor then a bunch of rust monsters is an easy way to make most adventures run. A hung swaem of phase wasps is another good idea they're fairly low CR creatures and they can use magic missile once every 1d4 rounds, but being tiny you can get alot into the same space that a huge creature would take, just dont keep them bunched up or they'll die very fast. You said his weakness is his fairly low str, if thats so then you'll need to exploit that weakness. Have multilimbed creatures with multiweapon fighting use poisoned weapons. Sooner or later he's going to fail a save and it'll hurt when he does.
Ikeren 02-06-06, 07:56 PM	Or take his player sheet and create an enemy NPC that he has to fight/kill. Or clone spell...or those crazy mirrors from the SRD...one sec. Mirror of Opposition: This item resembles a normal mirror about 4 feet long and 3 feet wide. It can be hung or placed on a surface and then activated by speaking a command word. The same command word deactivates the mirror. If a creature sees its reflection in the mirror’s surface, an exact duplicate of that creature comes into being. This opposite immediately attacks the original. The duplicate has all the possessions and powers of its original (including magic). Upon the defeat or destruction of either the duplicate or the original, the duplicate and her items disappear completely. The mirror functions up to four times per day. Strong necromancy; CL 15th; Craft Wondrous Item, clone; Price 92,000 gp;Weight 45 lb. Create two of them opposite each other. Have him kill two of himself at the same time.