Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Another_Poet 11-07-06, 08:52 PM	Hi everyone. My regular group finally started a brand-spanking new Forgotten Realms campaign. I am playing a ninja (one of two in the party). It's my first time playing this class, and so far I am a little disappointed (especially by the low AC--ninja can't wear light armor? This is neither true to life nor balanced for gameplay!). I am hoping the character will get to be more fun as he levels up and his ki powers become useful. But... Who here is big on playing this class? Any tips on how to make it fun and useful? Which skills do you find most useful? How do you make yourself an asset to the group? I am not going for an optimised character here, just a fun one who can show off from time to time. One other note: DM doesn't allow evil PC's so some of the more likely prestige classes (like assassin) aren't gonna work. Thanks, AP P.S. If you offer a brilliant suggestion and I don't respond right away, please don't be offended. I am doing a lot of Get Out The Vote work tonight and will definitely check back as soon as I can.
Salla 11-07-06, 09:14 PM	Well, basically, compared to a rogue, a Ninja is a worse combatant, but a better infiltrator. Keep your scouting/infiltration skills up (Hide, Move Silent, Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device, etc.), and make sure you have a good Wisdom (since you get to add that bonus to your AC). You'll have to be even more opportunistic than a rogue ... your invisibility power *is* going to save your life. Keep in mind that it doesn't fade after you attack; it lasts until your next turn unless you get Glitterdusted or something. Also, remember that poison use (even lethal, aka Con Drain poisons) is not evil. This is never stated anywhere in any book (save, perhaps the extremely iffy Book of Vile/Exalted), so as soon as you get poison use, make use of it.
Ashok_Lal 11-07-06, 10:04 PM	A Ninja in a party isn't IMHO a Ninja, just a dude who thinks wearing black PJ's is cool. A Ninja should be in a clan. Obay orders without question. Place honor above all else. They have the same devotion to a code as a Samuri.
TheChilliGod 11-07-06, 10:21 PM	I play a ninja. Had only one session with the character so far, but he's already proving to be among the more valuable party members. Everybody wanted my ninja to search this door for traps and to scout ahead; the only place where my ninja sucked was in combat. Probably because he's multiclassed to wizard. Seriously, the party's only arcane caster, and the party's only expert! I'm doomed to be loved in the party! :cloud9: Anyway, I agree with getting yourself a good Wisdom score. Not only does it improve AC, but you get bonus Ki abilities. More invisibility. Makes for awesomeness. Also, I would recommend sticking with long-range stuff. Just stay within 30 feet of the bad guy, ghost-step a lot, and you should be as sweet as if you were a rogue in melee. Get to use dex-based weapons for attacking too; better attack bonuses without need for Weapon Finesse. Good luck with your ninja!
Another_Poet 11-07-06, 10:30 PM	A Ninja in a party isn't IMHO a Ninja, just a dude who thinks wearing black PJ's is cool. A Ninja should be in a clan. Obay orders without question. Place honor above all else. They have the same devotion to a code as a Samuri. The class description states that while most ninja are part of a clan, some learn from solitary training with a single master. That is the deal with my ninja, who was tought by his Sensee in an underground tomb for many years. His Sensee is dead now (not murdered, no cheesy revenge goal, don't worry), so he struck out on his own to put his skills to use protecting others. Interestingly, he is currently lawful good but is also young so I wonder if that idealism will go away after a few levels of seeing the real world. He might become neutral eventually, who knows. As for obeying orders without question... no. The whole point of a ninja is that they are unpredictable, sneaky, and break all the rules. A ninja will undoubtedly obey his own sensee or clan leader but other than that they do what they think is best to get the job done. That's my two GP. AP
Another_Poet 11-07-06, 10:35 PM	Salla--I agree about the poison but how should I make a case for it if the party members or DM think it is too sinsister? TheChiliGod and Salla--My Wisdom score is good. I don't have the char sheet in front of me right now but it was either my 16 or my 18; I rolled great on that one. Definitely appreciate the tip. And whoever mentioned using mostly ranged weapons--Yes! That is what was missing for me, I think. I was very befuddled about not yet qualifying for Weapon Finesse at L1 (didn't have the +1 BAB prereq) and having such low atk rolls. I didn't even think of standing back and letting someone else do the charging in while I snipe... duh! Thanks. Still would be open to more suggestions. AP
TheWerg 11-07-06, 11:46 PM	I think that the +1 BAB prereq on Weapon Finesse nerfs it severely by making it crappy to the few classes that need it. I house-ruled it out in my campaign. I just wanted to stick that bit in there, I don't know much about Ninjas. I just know that Sudden Strike is the non-flanking version of Sneak Attack and that they get ki abilities. It seems that the people who have posted before me know what they're doing, though. Since TheChiliGod talks about being a skill character, I might recommend getting a decent intelligence, since most skill characters need, well, skills.
Fox Reeveheart 11-08-06, 12:25 AM	Ninjas are in of my top favorite classes but i never got the real chance to play one (done a session with him but never got to roll a dice). I want to play a campaign where its very sneaking and such but we don't seem to do that, I dont want to make a ninja and just end up a skill monkey or play the part of a rogue.
Salla 11-08-06, 12:28 AM	Salla--I agree about the poison but how should I make a case for it if the party members or DM think it is too sinsister? Well, the easy solution would be to stick to nonlethal poisons ... knockout drugs, and those that affect the mental ability scores (very useful for use on enemy spellcasters). Other than that, all I can really think of is to present the books and say 'Show me where it says poison use is evil'. The rules are on your side, and DMs are not always right. If they're intent on suffering from revisionitis (Poison was evil in 2e), well, you'll just have to suck it up and take another tack.
Rowan_Whispercloak 11-08-06, 12:46 AM	Until you can get Weapon Finesse you might want to use the aid another action in combat, especially if you can get you sudden strike ability this will help other characters and mostly keep you off of most opponents radar. I noticed that as soon as I landed a sneak attack (or several at later levels) with my rogue if that didn't end the fight most oppenent were then set on smashing me, so I would think that the ninja would have similiar things going on as well. As for prestige classes unless there is one that really catches your eye then I would say try to go all the way through ninja. You could multiclass a few levels to fighter to help you BAB and pick up a couple of feats. One thing I wanted to try was a Ninja/Wujen/Daggerspell Mage, but that was more for the image I was wanting for the character. I haven't played a ninja yet, but a friend of mine basically took levels in it to get poison use without going through an evil class. Good luck.
Prak, the Mad 11-08-06, 12:57 AM	one of the best ways to play a nina accurately: don't say you're a ninja. don't wear black, don't carry ninja-to and shurikin openly. dress like a wood cutter, or some other innocuous thing, and hide your gear.
Judging Eagle 11-08-06, 01:10 AM	I've got a level 7 Ninja 5/Rogue 1/Spell Theif 1/Targeteer 1 in my Eberron group, and let me tell you, he sucked at anything save trapfinding/disabling (and even that was lucky, only in Eberron do you You are a scout You are a trapfinder You are an opportunistic combatant. That means stay out of melee whenever you can, instead focus on ranged combat. Your going to suffer early on in the game for combat. This will change so drastically at level 6 onwards that you will outdamage almost anyone in the party every single round. I will show you how. I really, really reccomend you do the following. Buy every Plant-based poison you can. Terinav Root and Black Lotus Extract are two very, very good bets. Both are Contact poisons, so you can affect things with DR (undead, constructs and demons you won't be able to however, look at the Book of Exalted Deeds for Ravages, they will affect Evil creatures, Look at the Libris Mortis for Positoxins, those affect undead). Make sure you have someone in the party capable of casting Minor Creation by level 7. If it's a wizard, buy him the 700 gp scroll and tell him you will give him the xp for him to make new scrolls of it for your personal use. If you have an Archivist, they can learn it from the Creation domain. Minor Creation will create 1 cubic foot per caster level of the stuff you are 'copying' via the spell (the spell requires you to have a sample of the 'original' material you are trying to copy). These cubic feet last 1 hour per level. Look up the PHII Web Enhancement, it describes how xp can be transferred for item creation from a willing person to the creator. One scroll would cost 700 to buy, or 350 + ?? xp to have made. One dose of Terinav Root costs 750 gp, Black Lotus Extract is 4,500 gp. That's per dose, so one missed arrow makes you lose 750 or 4,500 gp. That scroll lets you get tons of use per single dose. At level 7 Minor Creation creates seven cubic feet of the substance you want! That translates to 144 x 12 1 inch cubed sized doses per cubic foot. That means..... 1728 doses per cubic foot or 12,096 doses per casting. Yes, 12 thousand doses to use up in 7 hours, trust me, you won't use that many doses up. One casting will be enough for you to coat all of your crossbow bolts or arrow heads. Not 50, not 100, all of them. " Yes, 12 thousand doses to use up in 7 hours, trust me, you won't use that many doses up." But you can damned near try, get your parties arrow-users and maybe spell-casters to use the poison. Have your parties spellcaster-item crafters create themselves and/or other party members cloaks of Delay Poison for 1000 gp each. If you have 24 hours of effective immunity to poison, you are pretty much immune to poison at all times, so your party can help you try to burn through your poison doses. Every party member can use poison on their weapons in advance (or on every arrow they have) and they will deal with enemies much faster. Coming up with a cool ability you can use is great. Coming up with one your entire group can abuse will make them survive longer. You however may also consider going and taking the Crossbow Sniper feat (to sneak attack from 60 feet away) and gain + 1/2 of your dex mod to damage. Taking 2 levels of Targeteer for Arrow Storm and Vital Aim. The class comes from a Dragon mag full of alternate fighter types. Arrow Storm gives you 2 more attacks at your highest attack bonus, but all of your attacks take a -5 to hit; Vital aim lets you apply your dex mod to ranged damage rolls are long as your Str mod is not negative. (look up www.crystalkeep.com in their alternate base classes .pdf) With arrowstorm you can sneak attack more often in your Ghost Step'ed rounds (dipping for levels of rogue or spell theif will help you maintain your Precision Damage per round as high as possible; 5d6 isn't shabby at lvl 7. Doing 5d6 up to 5 times a round from 60 feet away with a Contact Poison with a DC of 20 that deals 3d6 Con damage is brutal, you'll kill people faster than the wizard or raging barbarian could, every round. Also, getting gear to up your hide checks into the stratosphere is also very handy. If you Ghost Step in your 1st round of combat, and make a suitibly high hide check in your next rounds (with a -20 penalty since you're trying to 'snipe'; that is attack at range and still remain hidden) you'll actually have to use only one, maybe two ghost steps per combat. Ways to get really high hide checks include: -An amulet of Alter Self (turn into a Skulk, they get +15 racial bonus as long as they wear no armour, which you won't since you want your Wis to AC) -Robes of Camoflauge (+10 circumstance bonus on hide checks) -Cloak of Elvenkind (+5 competence to hide) So... +15 Racial, +10 Circumstance, +5 Competence, +Y dex, +X ranks You should be able to reach hide checks of +30 before dex (assume +3) and ranks (assuming level +3; so, by say... level 7, +10). Averaging about +40, +20 since you're sniping. Oh, one more thing. I say this b/c the party ninja has been screwed of his abilities b/c the DM forgets one thing over and over again. Enforce the PENALTY of -1 to Listen Checks per 10 feet. Your enemies will have a -5 to -6 Listen check penalty, and you will or could have a +20 modifer when sniping. You should be able to hit your foes without them being to know where their doom stands. Up until that point, don't worry if you're just a trap-breaker. Just be a brooding silent pragmatic Shinobi no mono; oh try to call yourself that instead of the modern shortening of Shinobi no mono that 'ninja' is. Yes, I know you may look like a copy-cat of someone else, but most people that excel at one concept tend to 'mechanically' do the same thing. If you want to do melee... you should have built a rogue, they're better for melee since they can flank for SA damage. Shinobi no mono are pretty much stuck using their invisibility and sniping, using poisons that have been applied to their arrows/bolts in advance. Yeah, the doses on your arrows will last until used or the Minor Creation used to create our poison wears off. So takk all of your bolts and shove them into the giant pile of poison you will have cast into either a large leather sack (or a piece of hide that you place on the ground before the spell is cast to support the created material).
X-Codes 11-08-06, 02:08 AM	At level 7 Minor Creation creates seven cubic feet of the substance you want! That translates to 144 x 12 1 inch cubed sized doses per cubic foot. That means..... 1728 doses per cubic foot or 12,096 doses per casting. Yes, 12 thousand doses to use up in 7 hours, trust me, you won't use that many doses up. The DM decides how much space one dose of poison takes up. Also, whether or not you can create the finished product or the raw materials is also up to the DM. This matters because you can't just take a Terinav Root and rub it on your knife to get a poisoned weapon, most plant-based poisons are refined. Have your parties spellcaster-item crafters create themselves and/or other party members cloaks of Delay Poison for 1000 gp each. If you have 24 hours of effective immunity to poison, you are pretty much immune to poison at all times, so your party can help you try to burn through your poison doses. Again, this is subject to DM approval. The item creation rules in the DMG are not RAW, they are self-described guidelines and suggestions. You however may also consider going and taking the Crossbow Sniper feat (to sneak attack from 60 feet away) and gain + 1/2 of your dex mod to damage. Crossbow Sniper is nice in that you can snipe from 60' away, but you can only attack once a round unless you get the Rapid Reload feat. Plus, it also requires BAB +4 and Weapon Focus. Taking 2 levels of Targeteer for Arrow Storm and Vital Aim. The class comes from a Dragon mag full of alternate fighter types. Arrow Storm gives you 2 more attacks at your highest attack bonus, but all of your attacks take a -5 to hit; Vital aim lets you apply your dex mod to ranged damage rolls are long as your Str mod is not negative. (look up www.crystalkeep.com in their alternate base classes .pdf) Again subject to DM approval, most DMs don't allow Dragon Magazine in my experience. Ways to get really high hide checks include: -An amulet of Alter Self (turn into a Skulk, they get +15 racial bonus as long as they wear no armour, which you won't since you want your Wis to AC) -Robes of Camoflauge (+10 circumstance bonus on hide checks) Two more items subject to DM approval, and probably going to come out much more expensive than you suggest considering that the bonuses they give are much more numeric than spell effect. Enforce the PENALTY of -1 to Listen Checks per -1 feet. If you want to do melee... you should have built a rogue, they're better for melee since they can flank for SA damage. It's 10', not 1', and Ninjas are better combatants because they can easily get their SS damage from a distance using their Ghost Step ability. What I don't get is how someone can make a weak ninja. You can probably get a +6 bonus on your attack rolls at level 2 while ghost-stepped. Weapon Focus to qualify for Crossbow Sniper at level 3 brings it up to +8, and you should be able to get a Cat's Grace or Reduce Person buff semi-consistently after that for another +2 bonus. Always against the flat-footed AC of enemies, too. Basically, the on-demand greater invisibility the Ninja has is an incredible ability that should not be underestimated.
Judging Eagle 11-08-06, 02:32 AM	one of the best ways to play a nina accurately: don't say you're a ninja. don't wear black, don't carry ninja-to and shurikin openly. dress like a wood cutter, or some other innocuous thing, and hide your gear. Ugh. Shinobi no mono wore blue, because you know, the sky is blue, so you blend in a natural outdoor surrounding easier with a natural colour. The 'black' outfits were actually the outfits that stage hands wore in theatre to move sets, when they wanted to show 'ninja' on-stage, they simply used the black outfits since they were already made. Making deep blue outfits would have been unnessecary costly, since they had the 'costumes' already done. Also, theatre is never accurate, it's entertainment. Ninja-to never existed. They're also a construct of theatre. The samurai carried curved blades, and the 'ninja' needed to be distinguished, so they go straight blades. The rest is spot on though. You're the group's porter, carry the wizards textbooks, then vanish, or pull out a +1 Repeating Light Crossbow and make a hide check to start firing nearly a half-dozen poisoned crossbow bolts into unsuspecting enemies. A hat of disguise helps with this. Use is in addition to the Amulet of Alter Self.
Darth Sephiroth 11-08-06, 02:34 AM	I'm playing one at the moment and one word of advice is to take a good look at the Ki or Jutsu feats from Dragon Magazine. The DM for mine also let me have a unique "Jutsu" that let me spend a Ki point to use Darkness as a spell like ability. Play sneaky and fast, if you can amp up your Speed (Fleet of Foot [regional] or Dash feats or the Quick Trait) to get up close and away as needed. Don't overlook thrown weapons like the Shuriken and the Improved Unarmed Strike feat gives you an excelent backup combat ability. If you go for thrown weapons, quickdraw becomes essential. If you don't mind some LA look at the Shadow Bound template. The only drawback to the template is the Will saves you'll have to keep making, but you'll have a high Wisdom modifier and a bonus as long as you have some Ki points left. The template adds a bunch of useful abilities for any sneaky character and the Ninja's sudden strike ability is seriously amplified by the templates abilities. Improved Initiative is another must have for getting that first attack in the fight, especially later on when you can eliminate some opponents in the first round of combat. Put ranks in Craft (Poison) and you'll be set due to Poison Use. Craft (Trapmaking) is something that would also be useful. Treetopper and Rooftopper are great feats for mobility as well
Judging Eagle 11-08-06, 03:10 AM	The DM decides how much space one dose of poison takes up. Also, whether or not you can create the finished product or the raw materials is also up to the DM. This matters because you can't just take a Terinav Root and rub it on your knife to get a poisoned weapon, most plant-based poisons are refined. That's why I said to buy the finished products before creating more. The finished product is used to help conjure more. If you have finished product, instead of incomplete product (Like the spell asks for) you will can can only get either the exact same product you have on hand or something more complex. One dose only affects a weapon for one attack, from arrowhead to fullblade. I'm pretty sure that 1 cubic inch is more than enough for a crossbow bolt head. Again, this is subject to DM approval. The item creation rules in the DMG are not RAW, they are self-described guidelines and suggestions. True, I threw it in to help use up all of that poison so it doesn't get wasted. Crossbow Sniper is nice in that you can snipe from 60' away, but you can only attack once a round unless you get the Rapid Reload feat. Plus, it also requires BAB +4 and Weapon Focus. Get a +1 Crossbow of Reloading (6,335 gp), no feat burned for rapid reload. Non-casters get told "you can't cast spells, you get nothing nice" often enough. That crossbow begins to erase that problem, in one area, a little. Also, there's no really large Bab pre-req for Crossbow Sniper that I've read, just the weapon focus (any crossbow) and a BaB of +1. Again subject to DM approval, most DMs don't allow Dragon Magazine in my experience. Two more items subject to DM approval, and probably going to come out much more expensive than you suggest considering that the bonuses they give are much more numeric than spell effect. 24 Hour duration Alter Self Ammy (18,000 gp) -Alter Self Spell (PHB) -You can't really price this any other way, the spell lets you do tons of things, you can turn into a human for their bonus feat if you wanted to, or a dwarf for more saves (not darkvision though) or any racial bonuses any creature with your type with 3 or less base hit dice has. 24 Hour Robes of Camouflage (3,000) -As per the Camouflage spell (Comp Div, p 157) -lvl 1 ranger/druid spell, 2000*1 spell lvl*1 caster lvl*1.5 duration (10 min / lvl) modifier= 3.000 gp The reason other bonuses aren't listed as possible to skill checks is that you need a spell capable of granting that kind of check, such spells usually can affect multiple skills, so they are harder to get higher bonus versions of said effects. The specialized spells that affect one skill check result in much cheaper items, whose benefits only apply to that one check. The 'alternate' class can be looked up at Crystal Keep, the classes are official material, Crystal Keep simply compiles tons of different sources of info into one page and organizes it all into nice and neat .pdf's. Unless the DM is saying 'core-only' Crystal Keep is usually kosher as a reference point. It's 10', not 1', and Ninjas are better combatants because they can easily get their SS damage from a distance using their Ghost Step ability. Typo. Fixed. My mistake. In any case, I was emphasising the fact that a lot of the time the distance penalties are never used. The DM has had enemy guards over 80 feet away hear the rogue if the rogue rolls a 1 to get an move silently check of 12 (lvl 5, 8 ranks + 3 dex +1 on the roll) while the guard who 'heard' him only rolled a 13, instead of 13 with a -8 distance penalty, resulting in a listen check of 5. :rolleyes: It's just a part of the opposed check that people forget; often screwing hiding characters b/c someone forgot the rules or never read them, which is why I am reiterating it. What I don't get is how someone can make a weak ninja. .... It happens in large enough parties...unless you're able to do ludicrous damage (say.... minimum 20 at lvl 5...), you'll always be outshined in an eight person party. Even when most people don't opt their characters. ... You can probably get a +6 bonus on your attack rolls at level 2 while ghost-stepped. Weapon Focus to qualify for Crossbow Sniper at level 3 brings it up to +8, and you should be able to get a Cat's Grace or Reduce Person buff semi-consistently after that for another +2 bonus. Always against the flat-footed AC of enemies, too. Basically, the on-demand greater invisibility the Ninja has is an incredible ability that should not be underestimated. Yes, ghost step is their really big trick. The best is that they can up their hide checks to 'remain' hidden in their subsequent rounds, that way they're not burning through their Ghost Steps in one encounter. They don't get many, and they never want to burn their last one (since it grants a bonus to will (?) saves). The ninja in our group saved his Ghost Steps for 'when he needed them' which really turned out to be never, and was stuck plinkin with a light crossbow. If he could achieve exceptionally high hide checks, he wouldn't burn as many Ghost Steps per encounter, and thus be more willing to use them per encounter.
X-Codes 11-08-06, 03:46 AM	That's why I said to buy the finished products before creating more. The finished product is used to help conjure more. If you have finished product, instead of incomplete product (Like the spell asks for) you will can can only get either the exact same product you have on hand or something more complex. One dose only affects a weapon for one attack, from arrowhead to fullblade. I'm pretty sure that 1 cubic inch is more than enough for a crossbow bolt head. Actually, I just read the spell. You need to succeed on a skill check to create a complex item, which refined plant-based poison most certainly is. Also, there's no really large Bab pre-req for Crossbow Sniper that I've read, just the weapon focus (any crossbow) and a BaB of +1. Re-checked, and found I was talking about Deadeye Shot. Still, you have to wait just as long because you don't qualify for Weapon Focus until level 3, which pushes this back to level 6, when you get +4 BAB. This assumes no multiclassing, which isn't a particularly good idea with a CAdv Ninja, especially this early. 24 Hour duration Alter Self Ammy (18,000 gp) -Alter Self Spell (PHB) -You can't really price this any other way, the spell lets you do tons of things, you can turn into a human for their bonus feat if you wanted to, or a dwarf for more saves (not darkvision though) or any racial bonuses any creature with your type with 3 or less base hit dice has. I can price it at 12934652347609237460234620346320 gp if I want. The custom magic items section of the DMG is all suggestions and guidelines, not hard-and-fast rules. Besides, a Wand of Alter Self (CL 3) costs 4,500 gp. Invest a little in the UMD skill and it's really worthwile. 24 Hour Robes of Camouflage (3,000) -As per the Camouflage spell (Comp Div, p 157) -lvl 1 ranger/druid spell, 2000*1 spell lvl*1 caster lvl*1.5 duration (10 min / lvl) modifier= 3.000 gp ...and a Sword of True Striking costs 8,000 gp. It's the same thing, even if yours is on a smaller scale. The reason other bonuses aren't listed as possible to skill checks is that you need a spell capable of granting that kind of check, such spells usually can affect multiple skills, so they are harder to get higher bonus versions of said effects. The specialized spells that affect one skill check result in much cheaper items, whose benefits only apply to that one check. Your item costs 3,000 gp, while the guidelines suggest that an item giving a +10 bonus on Hide checks costs 10,000 gp. The guidelines suggest that the DM use the 10k gp cost because it's more in-line with what the effect really is. The 'alternate' class can be looked up at Crystal Keep, the classes are official material, Crystal Keep simply compiles tons of different sources of info into one page and organizes it all into nice and neat .pdf's. Unless the DM is saying 'core-only' Crystal Keep is usually kosher as a reference point. Most DM's don't allow Dragon. It's not because of lack of access, it's because Dragon material is often poorly-balanced. Only in cases where something simply cannot be done with a hardcover WotC book do I even consider Dragon material. It happens in large enough parties...unless you're able to do ludicrous damage (say.... minimum 20 at lvl 5...), you'll always be outshined in an eight person party. Even when most people don't opt their characters. Party size has nothing to do with an individual character's strength. I have no idea where you came up with the idea that a level 5 character sucks if it can't do 20 damage a round, minimum. Yes, ghost step is their really big trick. The best is that they can up their hide checks to 'remain' hidden in their subsequent rounds, that way they're not burning through their Ghost Steps in one encounter. They don't get many, and they never want to burn their last one (since it grants a bonus to will (?) saves). The ninja in our group saved his Ghost Steps for 'when he needed them' which really turned out to be never, and was stuck plinkin with a light crossbow. If he could achieve exceptionally high hide checks, he wouldn't burn as many Ghost Steps per encounter, and thus be more willing to use them per encounter. Remember that you can only take 1 attack a round when sniping.
High Octane 11-08-06, 04:03 AM	I keep saying it. A ninja is a monk with some rogue sneakiness. Play it like a monk with some rogue sneakiness.
cog_and_taz 11-08-06, 04:22 AM	Here's some advice, Fr so no warforged, but it'll still be a bit nice. Get ascetic monk/rogue/whatever and get some levels of monk. It will improve your BAB and saves, plus give you evasion and such. Ghost step behind something, and flurry of blows/sudden strike, you get damage on all the hits.
Another_Poet 11-08-06, 10:15 AM	one of the best ways to play a nina accurately: don't say you're a ninja. don't wear black, don't carry ninja-to and shurikin openly. dress like a wood cutter, or some other innocuous thing, and hide your gear. I'm with you on this. My ninja says he is a fighter and dresses in a blue robe that would cover any leather armor he might be wearing (but of course he isn't). We've only had one session so far and the other PC's haven't figured out yet that he is a ninja, though the players know it out-of-game and keep trying to come up with ridiculous reasons why they would figure it out in-character (We notice you're walking more stealthily than most people. You must be a ninja!). We'll see how long it takes before I have to do something openly ninja-esque. ap
Another_Poet 11-08-06, 10:23 AM	What I don't get is how someone can make a weak ninja. You can probably get a +6 bonus on your attack rolls at level 2 while ghost-stepped. Weapon Focus to qualify for Crossbow Sniper at level 3 brings it up to +8, and you should be able to get a Cat's Grace or Reduce Person buff semi-consistently after that for another +2 bonus. Always against the flat-footed AC of enemies, too. Basically, the on-demand greater invisibility the Ninja has is an incredible ability that should not be underestimated. I guess I'll find out if that holds true when I get to level 2... so far nothing to write home about. I think the weapon focus/crossbow sniper path sounds like a good idea but then it would take me forever to get the prereq feats for any of the prestige classes I was thinking of taking. Also, someone above mentioned Wis bonus to AC--did I miss that in the class description? Should I add my Wis to my AC? At all times or just in certain circumstances??? ap
Kradlo 11-08-06, 11:00 AM	In reply to the claim that the only "real" ninjas are part of a clan, this is D&D, not feudal Japan, so we have monks, samurai, and ninja walking around nowhere near their respective Eastern lands. Heck, note the Drow ninja mini (and her statted card) for D&D minis (a darned nice sculpt, too - wish there was a metal version for painting). I've played a Goblin ninja in an Eberron game. It was fun having a Charisma 6 and become the party spokesperson when questioned by the Dwarf sergeant of the guard in Sharn over two dead bodies. "Honest, sir, we were witnesses to a murder, and as concerned citizens we attempted to apprehend the culprit. The warforged attacked us with the very axe he used to kill the human, and we were forced to defend ourselves. So he died." All true, of course, but the Dwarf didn't like hearing it from a Goblin one bit. So much fun. :D Oh, and just so you know, others have gone with the Goblin ninja (and samurai) mode: Rackham, with their Confrontation miniatures (awesome sculpts). How can you not like them? http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics10/img4443774eafcbe.jpg
elondir 11-08-06, 11:05 AM	Use the anthropomorphic turtle for your race and use the words "totally" and "dude" a lot! (joke) :D
SeattleLightning 11-08-06, 11:49 AM	Is the ninja a class or a PrC? What book can they be found in?
ProZocK 11-08-06, 12:06 PM	You made me register so i could say this.... FLIP OUT AND KILL PEOPLE!!!! :D
Another_Poet 11-08-06, 02:02 PM	Is the ninja a class or a PrC? What book can they be found in? It's a base class. I believe it is the first entry in Complete Adventurer. ap
High Octane 11-08-06, 02:44 PM	You made me register so i could say this.... *snip* :D TAKE A FEW OF YOUR NAMESAKE! Seriously, HISTORICALLY ninjas were essentially agent assassins for their respective families. They were not psychos, they were cold efficient killers. They were actually honor bound to their families and killed in their name, but kept their identities secret at all times to those who were not also ninja, or POSSIBLY family leaders. That was the HISTORICAL ninja. The D&D ninja need not be anything like it. The D&D ninja is very roguish, but focuses more on infiltration and combat prowess over the rogues technical trapfinding. Ninjas often have more dex and str based skills like balance climb and tumble, whereas a rogue CAN have those, but just as often focuses on more int or charisma based skills like bluff and disable device and search. Ninjas and rogues can serve the same basic functions in a party, so it basically falls to personal taste. In roleplaying terms, the only difference between a rogue and a ninja is that a ninja will have more formal training in martial arts disciplines. So the character will be much more likely to be lawful. He will probably have no respect for "honorable" combat.
heretic888 11-08-06, 03:43 PM	Just a quick note, guys..... Seriously, HISTORICALLY ninjas were essentially agent assassins for their respective families. They were not psychos, they were cold efficient killers. They were actually honor bound to their families and killed in their name, but kept their identities secret at all times to those who were not also ninja, or POSSIBLY family leaders. That was the HISTORICAL ninja. The D&D ninja need not be anything like it. Your information is considerably inaccurate, High Octane. I challenge you to find reference of just one confirmed assassination attributed to "ninja" in Japanese history. Just one. A warning, though. Military historians like Stephen Turnbull can't seem to find any (and he can actually read and write Japanese!), so you'll probably have a hell of a time doing so. What the historical record actually tells us about these people is that they specialized in the gathering and acquisition of military intelligence (whether it be through scouting or direct espionage). Some "ninja" groups, such as the famous Iga and Koga bushi, also specialized in small-groups military tactics and commando warfare. But, sorry, no assassins to speak of. The notion that the "ninja" kept their names secret from everyone but other "ninja" in their families is, to be blunt, ridiculous. In Iga Province, the names of the bushi who pledged their fealty to the regional federation were posted by temple entrances. These were the "ninja" you are making so much fuss about. Please, people, don't represent something as "history" that you read from comic books. Laterz.
coolpenguin410 11-08-06, 04:19 PM	I don't know why everyone is so afraid to get the Ninja into melee. The Invisible Blade PrC works very well with a well built ninja. I agree that the ninja is opportunistic, but that doesn't mean he can't pick his fights! Can't use SS while flanking? Flank anyways! Use aid another in combat. You have a built-in way of getting SS, use it. Also, find other ways to get you SS. Flick of the Wrist, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, and there are MANY feats that allow for creating diversions and hiding in combat. Yes, many of these feats lend themselves easier to ranged combat, but that doesn't mean melee isn't an option. With the money you're saving from not buying armor, buy some potions of mage armor or shield. Or both! You can easily get your AC into the 20's by level 2. Get a good finessable weapon and have at it!
Kradlo 11-08-06, 06:21 PM	Ninjas delivery your burgers in 30 minutes or less or they commit seppuku. And they're the only ones with Fries of their Ancestors and Dim Mak death touch!
High Octane 11-08-06, 09:17 PM	I challenge you to find reference of just one confirmed assassination attributed to "ninja" in Japanese history. Just one. Historically, you cant confirm CRAP, much less than an assassination. I cant think of ANY assassination that a government takes credit for! You are correct, assassin is the wrong word. Secret agent is more accurate. Espionage agent, which would probably INCLUDE assassination, but that wouldnt be the alpha and the omega of it. They probably did assassinate but never admitted it, and probably did it very rarely. I mean, think about it. Think the CIA will ever admit to an assassination ever? No. Think they never assassinated anyone ever?
Leress 11-08-06, 09:49 PM	I suggest later on getting some levels in shadow dancer...there is some fun to be had when you jump through the shadows to sudden strike.
heretic888 11-09-06, 08:47 AM	Historically, you cant confirm CRAP, much less than an assassination. Only if one is dealing in a deeply uneducated and impoverished view of history. I cant think of ANY assassination that a government takes credit for! First off, historical ninja groups were not a "government". Secondly, the issue is whether there is evidence of such assassinations in the first place. In Japanese history, all such assassinations were either: 1) Myths - Ashikaga Yoshihisa and Uesugi Kenshin were sometimes believed to have been killed by "ninja", but in actuality both died of natural causes (pnemounia and alcohol-induced stomach cancer, respectively). 2) Not Quite Ninja - Sometimes, people that are described as "ninja" are not quite the people we would expect. In the Taiheiki, for example, a "ninja" is described as killing a warlord in his sleep --- but the "ninja" in question was the son of an executed noble who just happened to be in the room next to him and just happened to pick up the warlord's own sword and kill him with it. A secret agent, he was not. 3) Betrayal - By far the most common occurence of assassination in Japanese history was at the behest of a close retainer betraying a daimyo. No secrets are involved. The best example of this is Akechi Mitsuhide's betrayal of Oda Nobunaga. I mean, think about it. Think the CIA will ever admit to an assassination ever? No. Think they never assassinated anyone ever? What I think is irrelevant because, when dealing with history, it is a matter of actual evidence. We are talking about a social science here, after all. Here is a better question: given that you have absolutely no evidence for your claim, how would one go about falsifying or disproving it?? It's like demanding someone to disprove the existence of invisible flying elephants in the sky. An unfalsifiable claim is a matter of quasi-religious faith, not empirical history. Laterz.
Revan54115110 11-09-06, 09:22 AM	I suggest later on getting some levels in shadow dancer...there is some fun to be had when you jump through the shadows to sudden strike. He is right, I have played a ninja / shadow dancer and it made him a very good at scouting and more options in combat. Or I just enjoy using the shadow dancer class
Neratos 11-09-06, 11:39 AM	There is a major loop hole in the game. If you are a warforged Ninja/Dread pirate with handle animal riding a battle titan, you automatically win DnD due to pure coolness factor. Nothing like a Robot Pirate Ninja riding a T-Rex wearing full-plate lmao
High Octane 11-09-06, 01:07 PM	Only if one is dealing in a deeply uneducated and impoverished view of history. First off, historical ninja groups were not a "government". Secondly, the issue is whether there is evidence of such assassinations in the first place. In Japanese history, all such assassinations were either: 1) Myths - Ashikaga Yoshihisa and Uesugi Kenshin were sometimes believed to have been killed by "ninja", but in actuality both died of natural causes (pnemounia and alcohol-induced stomach cancer, respectively). 2) Not Quite Ninja - Sometimes, people that are described as "ninja" are not quite the people we would expect. In the Taiheiki, for example, a "ninja" is described as killing a warlord in his sleep --- but the "ninja" in question was the son of an executed noble who just happened to be in the room next to him and just happened to pick up the warlord's own sword and kill him with it. A secret agent, he was not. 3) Betrayal - By far the most common occurence of assassination in Japanese history was at the behest of a close retainer betraying a daimyo. No secrets are involved. The best example of this is Akechi Mitsuhide's betrayal of Oda Nobunaga. What I think is irrelevant because, when dealing with history, it is a matter of actual evidence. We are talking about a social science here, after all. Here is a better question: given that you have absolutely no evidence for your claim, how would one go about falsifying or disproving it?? It's like demanding someone to disprove the existence of invisible flying elephants in the sky. An unfalsifiable claim is a matter of quasi-religious faith, not empirical history. Laterz. So tell me, what was the price of tea in Japan?
Leress 11-09-06, 03:02 PM	Okay, Heretic and Octane, stop right now...you are getting off topic. Let's help the OP with their problem not get in to a debate that has be done already. The OP is playing the CW version of the Ninja, so there is no reason to bring things about real ninja and what is or is not true about them. If you want to have a debate make a new thread...don't take the OP's. @the OP (Another_Poet) Could you give more details about your Ninja...like level, equipment and the like?
heretic888 11-09-06, 03:49 PM	Okay, Heretic and Octane, stop right now...you are getting off topic. Let's help the OP with their problem not get in to a debate that has be done already. The OP is playing the CW version of the Ninja, so there is no reason to bring things about real ninja and what is or is not true about them. If you want to have a debate make a new thread...don't take the OP's. No worries.
High Octane 11-09-06, 07:49 PM	Okay, Heretic and Octane, stop right now...you are getting off topic. Let's help the OP with their problem not get in to a debate that has be done already. The OP is playing the CW version of the Ninja, so there is no reason to bring things about real ninja and what is or is not true about them. If you want to have a debate make a new thread...don't take the OP's. @the OP (Another_Poet) Could you give more details about your Ninja...like level, equipment and the like? My apologies, but when someone personally insults me I tend to get a bit mad. Especially when the tone is very codescending. In any case Ill be on guard to not do that again. Again I apologize to you and the OP.
Another_Poet 11-10-06, 01:09 PM	Okay, Heretic and Octane, stop right now...you are getting off topic. Let's help the OP with their problem not get in to a debate that has be done already. The OP is playing the CW version of the Ninja, so there is no reason to bring things about real ninja and what is or is not true about them. If you want to have a debate make a new thread...don't take the OP's. @the OP (Another_Poet) Could you give more details about your Ninja...like level, equipment and the like? Sure! Human, L1, male, young adult, claims he is a fighter and hasn't yet told anyone in the party he is a ninja. Feats: Combat Expertise, Imrpoved Feint Base attack: 0 Armor: None Armor class: 14 IIRC Weapons: sorry, don't recal offhand. Pretty basic stuff though. The char sheet is with my DM. Skills: I maxed out bluff (for my feint), sense motive, tumble, I think Sleight of Hand, search, and spot I think. Probably put a few points in a few others too. High Octane-- apology accepted. No prob. AP
Senevri 11-10-06, 11:10 PM	Is this the "Ninja" base class from Completes? Best Ninja class was in old Sword and Fist... The Crescent Moon one... *sigh* What books do you have access to? Okay, enough 'bout the crunch. Jokes aside, popular culture teaches me: - Ninjas act according to a personal code of honor - Ninjas go on missions: Assassinate, Investigate, Protect, Fetch, Deliver - Ninjas are sneaky - so be sneaky - THINK sneaky. - Ninjas are acrobatic - get your Jump checks in the high 30s. - Ninjas use a lot of gear - check out alchemical items, carry rope etc. - Ninjas often serve others - look for a ( worthy )master to serve. ...What else? Umm...
High Octane 11-11-06, 07:43 PM	Is this the "Ninja" base class from Completes? Best Ninja class was in old Sword and Fist... The Crescent Moon one... *sigh* What books do you have access to? Okay, enough 'bout the crunch. Jokes aside, popular culture teaches me: - Ninjas act according to a personal code of honor - Ninjas go on missions: Assassinate, Investigate, Protect, Fetch, Deliver - Ninjas are sneaky - so be sneaky - THINK sneaky. - Ninjas are acrobatic - get your Jump checks in the high 30s. - Ninjas use a lot of gear - check out alchemical items, carry rope etc. - Ninjas often serve others - look for a ( worthy )master to serve. ...What else? Umm... Nothing! You nailed it! Take a lap then hit the showers!