Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilIdiot 11-01-06, 08:09 AM	I'm playing a LN necromancer, who has spent his childhood in a pelor's shrine, because of a serious illness. He became necromancer because he was very intelligent, and used his skills to help his tutors (pelor's clergy), then he studied wizardry, gaining spell and greater knowledge....and now he's still close to pelor's clergy. Technically I'm at 1st level, and I've got Greater Fortitude and SpellFocus(necro). How should I advance in terms of feats, spells and prc? So far I have had these ideas: - spells:avoid spell which create ,help or improve only undeads, and those ones with evil-descriptor -skills spend some skill points in <heal> - prc if there's nothing better, I could take the "disciple of the void", CDiv, which reflects part of his character ,and can be useful to help allies with save DCs and similars... uh! last question: should I get a familiar? which one?
pita 11-01-06, 08:27 AM	Ask your DM if you can have a skeletal familiar. I wouldn't be one to ask, because I think spells that have something to do with undead should have their evil descriptor removed and have undead change alignments. You better ask one of the "undead are evil" camp about it.
EvilIdiot 11-01-06, 11:56 AM	Unfortunately, I strongly believe that negative energy isn't evil, but undeads are. ehm... please note that "having a familiar" is a marginal question, less important than the other ones... thanks anyway for your attention ;)
Shaggy_Shaggs 11-01-06, 12:41 PM	You might want to pick up the feat Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine) and add the spells from Pelor's Healing domain to your class spell list. Healing spells have always belonged in the Necromancy school anyway - they're just killing reversed. This current Conjuration school for them is utter crap. Depending on the books available, you might want to consider multiclassing with druid and eventually going something like Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Heirophant 10. (Mystic Theurge in DMG, Arcane Heirophant in Races of the Wild.) You'd be freaking powerful (9th level arcane spells and 9th level divine spells by 20th level), you'd have a cool companion familiar buddy to help you, and you could be a totally non undead focused necromancer - instead wielding and manipulating the energies of life, death, growth, and entropy.
Cifer 11-01-06, 12:50 PM	I wouldn't be one to ask, because I think spells that have something to do with undead should have their evil descriptor removed and have undead change alignments. You better ask one of the "undead are evil" camp about it. I think in this case it's not even necessarily "undead are evil" but "the church of Pelor, which this character likes, is not exactly fond of undead" which is a valid stance for a church whatever undead alignment is.
EvilIdiot 11-01-06, 12:57 PM	@Shaggy: really good suggestion, but I'm not going to multiclass with druid, mainly because character's grave digger, and with any other divine spellcasting class, because it wouldn't fit character bg ;), I wasn't clear since the beginnig about that in fact thanks a lot
Pegasos989 11-01-06, 02:08 PM	So, arcane necromancer? Naturally, the first suggestion I will give is "Don't mess with the undead". Undeath, sure, but not undead. Not only are arcane necromancers specializing in raise dead, create undead, etc. less good than divine ones, but it is really annoying to play when someone in the team has horde of undead going around. Not that you couldn't create a ghoul as a servant at some point but creating a horde of undead is a big no-no. Then to spells... There are a lot of good ones. Trying to tell you which necromancy spells are worth taking is like trying to decide at which casino is jackpot worth winning - some are better than others but nearly all are nice. Ray of enfeeblement is a good spell for making any fight easier (Even around 8th level, 1d6+4 str from an opponent is worth the spell slot. This is especially good when you are at a boss fight and don't want to ruin your DM's encounter by using save-or-lose spells. Also, 1st level spell can be quickened relatively easily.) False life is very good at low levels, so is blinding opponents... So, practically, while illusion and enchantment is owning opponents with poor will saves, necromancy wins opponents with poor fortitude saves. As such, when you get spells that you can use to fight against the good fort-save types, take them (fear comes to mind, for example).
EvilIdiot 11-01-06, 02:37 PM	True, they're good spells, I'll check them, thanks. What about prcs?:D Other ideas are welcome as well ;) Which familiar ,if any, would you suggest?
xdahnx 11-01-06, 03:57 PM	You might want to pick up the feat Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine) and add the spells from Pelor's Healing domain to your class spell list. Healing spells have always belonged in the Necromancy school anyway - they're just killing reversed. This current Conjuration school for them is utter crap. Depending on the books available, you might want to consider multiclassing with druid and eventually going something like Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Heirophant 10. (Mystic Theurge in DMG, Arcane Heirophant in Races of the Wild.) You'd be freaking powerful (9th level arcane spells and 9th level divine spells by 20th level), you'd have a cool companion familiar buddy to help you, and you could be a totally non undead focused necromancer - instead wielding and manipulating the energies of life, death, growth, and entropy. Agree and Agree. I really like the second paragraph in view of the druidic outlook. It's very yin/yang, and I see druids as having that balance. Entropy is my favourite word in your paragraph. I see druids who fall out of balance as emphasizing too much of any one quality (artificially prolonging life, causing extra death, unsustainable growth, utter destruction and negation...respectively). I always approach the Druid class with caution. It's hard to play, when a 'cure light wounds' spell becomes a serious philosophical issue. But that's what makes it rich. Sorry this is an aside, but yes. thanks.
Thubby 11-01-06, 04:05 PM	i love snake familiars personaly. you should take the anti undead spells (seriously, their all necro) and insta death spells are good. the exhaust spell tree is amazing, and not considered evil. necros deal with life energy, not just undead, he has probably had to deal with prejudus, and be ill trusted
Salla 11-01-06, 04:11 PM	Well, one of my most enjoyable characters in recent times was a Lawful Good Necromancer, so I can tell you ... it ain't that hard to do. There are approximately six Evil spells in the PHB (defined as spells with the Evil descriptor), so all you have to do is not cast those, and you're fine on the magic front. Necromancy is a LOT more than shambling hordes of skeletal minions.
Ryu Katsuragi 11-01-06, 04:54 PM	Technically, I find the idea flawed. Not in my opinion, but by RAW. You want to play a Lawful Good Necromancer, the art of raising the dead and such, when in the DnD universe, channeling negative energy is evil? I don't know how undead work, but I find it particularly evil to forcefully bring someone back in service to you, in the form of some kind of rotting cadavar, unable to do anything for itself.
Thubby 11-01-06, 05:11 PM	Technically, I find the idea flawed. Not in my opinion, but by RAW. You want to play a Lawful Good Necromancer, the art of raising the dead and such, when in the DnD universe, channeling negative energy is evil? I don't know how undead work, but I find it particularly evil to forcefully bring someone back in service to you, in the form of some kind of rotting cadavar, unable to do anything for itself. undeadifying has no effect on the persons soul, ever. i dont want to start another "undead evil?" thread, so ill shut up now. necromancy isnt just undead making, realy.
Vashwood 11-01-06, 05:19 PM	Mindless undead don't have souls ... you're just re-using a body that some careless person left laying around. =P Creating intelligent undead, however, does tamper with the soul of the deceased ... so I could see that as an evil act. With mindless undead, on the other hand, you're not hurting anyone ... so I typically rule that they are not evil, nor is creating them evil. After all, your clerics aren't "stealing the souls" of furniture when they animate objects, are they? That being said, I rather like the concept of a good variant of the Dread Necromancer. Maybe give him the ability to speak with dead at will (to ask the departed permission for using their bodies), healing spells in place of his stupid summon undead spells ( he controls life and death, so no conjuring), and a variant of Turn/Rebuke Undead (perhaps call it Redeem Undead?) that would restore the alignment and memories of turned intelligent undead. Hrm ... maybe I should work on this ...
Salla 11-01-06, 06:12 PM	Technically, I find the idea flawed. Not in my opinion, but by RAW. You want to play a Lawful Good Necromancer, the art of raising the dead and such, when in the DnD universe, channeling negative energy is evil? I don't know how undead work, but I find it particularly evil to forcefully bring someone back in service to you, in the form of some kind of rotting cadavar, unable to do anything for itself. As I said, necromancy is a lot more than just hordes of shambling minions, and channeling negative energy is not inherently evil (bolstering and creating undead is, and uses negative energy, but that's not the same thing). Notice that the various Inflict spells do not have the Evil descriptor, for instance? Because channelling negative energy is not inherently evil; it can simply be used for evil purposes, like fire can. That doesn't make fire evil.
Ryu Katsuragi 11-01-06, 06:24 PM	As I said, necromancy is a lot more than just hordes of shambling minions, and channeling negative energy is not inherently evil Infact, by RAW, channeling negative energy is an evil act. Neutral Clerics and Undead A cleric of neutral alignment can either turn undead but not rebuke them, or rebuke undead but not turn them. See Turn or Rebuke Undead for more information. Even if a cleric is neutral, channeling positive energy is a good act and channeling negative energy is evil.
Salla 11-01-06, 06:25 PM	Infact, by RAW, channeling negative energy is an evil act. That specifically refers to turning undead. Which, I suppose means that divine spellcasters don't channel energy, which leaves my point intact; Necromancy is not inherently evil, creating undead is.
Ryu Katsuragi 11-01-06, 06:49 PM	That specifically refers to turning undead. Which, I suppose means that divine spellcasters don't channel energy, which leaves my point intact; Necromancy is not inherently evil, creating undead is. I would believe you, if it said something like 'If a Cleric channels positive energy, he is good'. But it specifically states that channeling (therefore, the use of) positive energy is a good act (therefore, by RAW, heal spells) and that channeling negative energy is a evil act (inflict spells).
Shaggy_Shaggs 11-01-06, 06:55 PM	I would believe you, if it said something like 'If a Cleric channels positive energy, he is good'. But it specifically states that channeling (therefore, the use of) positive energy is a good act (therefore, by RAW, heal spells) and that channeling negative energy is a evil act (inflict spells).The problem with this perspective is that "channeling" is never explicitly defined; and given that cure spells are not good and inflict spells are not evil, one cannot safely assume that "channeling" means "casting a spell using". If there is any implied definition there, it's that "channeling" means "turning or rebuking with".
Callista 11-02-06, 01:00 AM	*sigh* The OP does NOT want to create undead! The character worships Pelor and believes undead are Evil. Necromancy deals with life and death and the energies associated with them--Evil spells are only a very small part of that branch of magic! Back to your regularly scheduled thread. Read the original post, people. :rolleyes:
xdahnx 11-02-06, 02:48 AM	The Best thing to do, for all confused parties, is to go to the SRD or a real book, and look at all the necromancy spells in and of themselves. You will realise there is a balance. Paladins get Necromancy spells (Mark of Justice).
EvilIdiot 11-02-06, 04:00 AM	what a tempered discussion!:P hmm..I have to say that I agree with Salla... but we're a bit off topic. Let's come back to the topic @Salla: was there a particular strategy you used while playing yor LG necromancer? (llittle note:my wiz isn't LG, but LN, and he officialy worships Boccob, but believes firmly in Pelor's ideals, as the best way to solve ethical questions....) what about prc? Is disciple of the void valuable or should I pick another one? or not at all? Thanks a lot!
X-Codes 11-02-06, 04:58 AM	Anyway, being a neutral-to-good aligned necromancer is a perfectly viable option. You'll be somewhat restricted in the "good necromancy spells" department, since a number of them are undead related, but adding in books outside the core enviroment helps that.
EvilIdiot 11-02-06, 04:11 PM	:bump:
xdahnx 11-02-06, 05:56 PM	I don't know why you are bumping this. How is it still an issue. You can be neutral. and cast the neutral and good necro spells. It's a done issue.
xdahnx 11-02-06, 06:07 PM	Here are the list of all the Potential Necromancy Spells you can cast from the PHB: O Level * Disrupt Undead: Deals 1d6 damage to one undead. * Touch of Fatigue: Touch attack fatigues target. 1 Level * Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds. * Chill Touch: One touch/level deals 1d6 damage and possibly 1 Str damage. * Ray of Enfeeblement: Ray deals 1d6 +1 per two levels Str damage 2 Level * Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blinded or deafened. * Command Undead: Undead creature obeys your commands. * False Life: Gain 1d10 temporary hp +1/level (max +10). * Ghoul Touch: Paralyzes one subject, which exudes stench that makes those nearby sickened. * Scare: Panics creatures of less than 6 HD. * Spectral Hand: Creates disembodied glowing hand to deliver touch attacks. 3 Level * Gentle Repose: Preserves one corpse. * Halt Undead: Immobilizes undead for 1 round/level. * Ray of Exhaustion: Ray makes subject exhausted. * Vampiric Touch: Touch deals 1d6/two levels damage; caster gains damage as hp. 4 Level # Bestow Curse: -6 to an ability score; -4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance of losing each action. # Enervation: Subject gains 1d4 negative levels. # Fear: Subjects within cone flee for 1 round/level. 5 Level * Blight: Withers one plant or deals 1d6/level damage to plant creature. * Magic Jar F: Enables possession of another creature. * Waves of Fatigue: Several targets become fatigued. 6 Level * Circle of Death M: Kills 1d4/level HD of creatures. * Symbol of Fear M: Triggered rune panics nearby creatures. * Undeath to Death M: Destroys 1d4/level HD of undead (max 20d4). 7 Level * Control Undead: Undead don’t attack you while under your command. * Finger of Death: Kills one subject. * Symbol of Weakness M: Triggered rune weakens nearby creatures. * Waves of Exhaustion: Several targets become exhausted. 8 Level * Clone M F: Duplicate awakens when original dies. * Horrid Wilting: Deals 1d6/level damage within 30 ft. * Symbol of Death M: Triggered rune slays nearby creatures. 9 Level * Astral Projection M: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane. * Energy Drain: Subject gains 2d4 negative levels. * Soul Bind F: Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection. * Wail of the Banshee: Kills one creature/level. There are only 4 I believe, that you cannot cast (because they are Evil). Though, you are Neutral, and I would argue could cast them under circumstances as well. (though why you are a child of pelor is a separate issue). They are Animate Dead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead, and Eyebite. cheers. now go play with life.
darkdragonk 11-03-06, 01:44 PM	you could always act like a true necromancer and then have some kind of inter conflict it could be a great role-playing opportunity :angel: vs :devil:
trapspringer 11-03-06, 04:26 PM	Talk to your DM and work with him to come up with some uniqe necro-based healing spells. I would suggest something operating on ranged touch and healing d6's. Watch some Venture Bros.
xdahnx 11-03-06, 04:45 PM	Talk to your DM and work with him to come up with some uniqe necro-based healing spells. I would suggest something operating on ranged touch and healing d6's. Wizard healing at range? That's not going to overshadow a Cleric or Druid's ability to heal?
X-Codes 11-03-06, 11:42 PM	Wizard healing at range? That's not going to overshadow a Cleric or Druid's ability to heal? No, it's not, because Clerics and Druids have the Heal spell. Besides, Wizards can *already* heal at a range if they take Arcane Disciple (Healing) and cast Spectral Hand.
xdahnx 11-03-06, 11:49 PM	No, it's not, because Clerics and Druids have the Heal spell. Besides, Wizards can *already* heal at a range if they take Arcane Disciple (Healing) and cast Spectral Hand. But those are two spells and a feat, instead of the proposed single spell.
X-Codes 11-04-06, 12:00 AM	But those are two spells and a feat, instead of the proposed single spell. Spectral Hand hardly counts as a spell in this sense, it's 2nd level, easily quickened, and lasts for multiple healing spells. Arcane Disciple (Healing) is also a very good feat for versatility reasons. Besides, the idea that elven high mages can't heal a papercut is laughable.
xdahnx 11-04-06, 12:12 AM	Spectral Hand hardly counts as a spell in this sense, it's 2nd level, easily quickened, and lasts for multiple healing spells. Arcane Disciple (Healing) is also a very good feat for versatility reasons. Besides, the idea that elven high mages can't heal a papercut is laughable. Ok Sure. But he's not an elven high mage. He's a level one necromancer. already outside the alignment restrictions to worship pelor, but afraid of the dead. He's an enfeebler.
trapspringer 11-04-06, 03:36 AM	Right, but remember this guy wants to play a healer-type. Besides, I imagine there will be some trade off. That's why he needs to work with his DM. A third restricted school seems appropriate to me, but I dunno.
UnrelentingHoror 11-04-06, 04:14 AM	Spectral Hand hardly counts as a spell in this sense, it's 2nd level, easily quickened, and lasts for multiple healing spells. Arcane Disciple (Healing) is also a very good feat for versatility reasons. Besides, the idea that elven high mages can't heal a papercut is laughable. What is this arcane disciple you speak of?
Dargan Griess 11-04-06, 04:43 AM	Try this its one of the old characters I had lying around. Doctor Bob the Good Necromancer. Human Neutral Good Worships Pelor (N/G) Specialist Wizard Necromancer Level 3 Forbidden schools Evocation and Illusion Int 18 Wis 16 Dex 13 Con 12 Str 10 Cha 9 stats rolled 4d6 drop the lowest and I was lucky Feats Able Learner Level 1 Arcane Diciple Level 1 Spontaneous Healer Level 3 Skill Focus Heal (optional but recomended) Later Skills 42 Points Knowledge Anatomy 6 Ranks Some DMs dont like home made Knowledge skills so Knowledge Nature can be used in a pinch Knowledge Arcana 6 Ranks Knowledge Religion 4 Ranks (4 Needed) Craft Alchemy 6 Ranks Heal CC 3 Ranks Concentration 6 Ranks Spellcraft 6 Ranks (4 Needed) Profession Doctor 5 Ranks Healing Domain Cure Light Wounds Cure Moderate Wounds Cure Serious Wounds Cure Critical Wounds Cure Light Wounds Mass Heal Regenerate Cure Critical Wounds Mass Heal Mass This build needs good Int and Wis
JulesCARV 11-04-06, 04:50 AM	I'd say that if you want to be a white necromancer, try to bring some form of sunblock if you're going to be adventuring outdoors a lot. Whites get sunburnt more easily than blacks. On the other hand, you don't have to worry too much about vitamin D deficiency, because your skin will be pretty good at synthesizing it from a normal diet + sunlight, which you'll get plenty of if you're a typical adventurer.
EvilIdiot 11-04-06, 08:35 AM	arcane disciple would be a good choice, but I'd need a decent wis score (now I've got 10), and I never said I'd liked to cure people as a cleric would, in fact, it is a bit "expansive"... xdahnx got right, I'm an enfeebler, more or less ehm... however my last questions were about prc :D