Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Amnarii 06-02-06, 09:32 PM	Okay, my party and I are setting out on a quest to retrieve a magical golden bell, which is roughly 18 feet tall, 16 feet diameter at the base, and hollow (about 8" thick walls) - but made of gold. We do not know exact weight, but dimensional size would be roughly the cube root of 16x16x18... not wanting to figure out that math, my colleagues and I went the long way about it and came up with the following; the circumference of the 16' circle is roughly 50' (pi(d)). If the curves were pounded out of the height, it would reach roughly 20' (DM input, so not subject to real world physics on that one). Since it will be a trapezoid if flattened out, roughly half the width at the top as at the bottom, we now have an 8" plate of gold which is 20' on 2 sides, 25' on the top and 50' on the bottom. That comes to roughly 750 square feet (for the trapezoid) times 3/4 (8" is 3/4') or 562.5 cubic feet. With gold weighing in at 1188 pounds per cubic foot, that comes out to roughly 670,000 pounds of a bell to move. Not accounting for its size, which will be awkward to say the least, if we encounter any doorways etc. On top of all of that, I'm going to up the above figure (670,000 pounds) to about 850,000 pounds based on some hints given by the DM that it may be heavier than we were thinking... (I figure 850,000 by using a full 50'x20' rectangle instead of the trapezoid it really should be). Because it is a magical item, the shrink item spell won't work. Levitate or a similar spell would need to be cast at CL 8500 (or only 6700 if my calculations ARE correct) to take effect. Teleport won't work because of weight... so it seems to be an impossible task. What suggestions could you come up with, magical or mundane, to transport such a bell with us, definitely across a sea (we are sailing to find it), and then to an as yet unknown final destination?
utilitarian 06-02-06, 09:35 PM	Well the first question is, what do you have access to? Are we talking 4th, 9th, 15th level characters or what?
SilentOne 06-02-06, 09:45 PM	Best I can say are two gate spells, for travel. One gate to the astral below the bell, then another right after to where you need it to be. Then cut the supports, and watch the bell fall through both to the destination. Now you need to be either 17th level, or be able to roll well on UMD for a pair of scrolls, or hire a 17th lvl caster.
Amnarii 06-02-06, 09:46 PM	well, while we are 3rd and 4th level characters, we have a lot of gold and will be having a magic item (scroll, wand, potion, wondrous item, etc.) or two made to use for this. We have been given a ridiculous amount of gold for a 3/4 level party. Plus, our magical abilities are limited to a druid and a warlock (UMD). As far as the amount of gold - we currently have roughly 100,000 GP (give or take a few thousand); but we will be able to make a lot more soon...the DM is being too generous I think, overcompensating for throwing us against stuff way beyond our means, and it is not really that much fun anymore... but hopefully we will soon catch up to the level he is wanting us to play at, and things will level out... [edit] The second reply came in while I was typing my reply to the first, lol... As to the gate spells; I hadn't thought of that because it is limited to going to a point on a different plane; but we could follow it through and cast a second one... that is where I hadn't thought of it. Thanks! Now, I have to see if I can get enough scrolls to allow me to succeed the UMD at least twice, lol.
Amnarii 06-02-06, 09:59 PM	wow, this may be easier than I thought... a pair of candles of invocation (8,400 gp each) - each one allows me to cast a gate spell. It seems to be intended to contact others on another plane, but it doesn't specify any one use of the gate spell, so could be used for this. Now my problem is actually getting the bell to move through the gate. I can cast it under the bell, but if we then cut it loose, it will fall fast... which plane has the proper gravity (or lack thereof) to allow it to float while I come through and cast the second gate?
utilitarian 06-02-06, 10:06 PM	The Ethereal plane has no gravity (see: Manual of the Planes) so you could also potentially Etherealize it and transport it that way, though this would be extremely slow) The Gate spells are the quickest way to get it done (to the Astral plane and back as suggested) but if you're planning on putting it onto a boat or something keep in mind the positioning on the second gate, you don't want it to crush something coming out of the Astral Plane. As an alternate and somewhat unconventional tactic, there is a sneaky little creature in the MM2 called a Gravorg that posses the ability to use Reverse Gravity at will to create up to 5 10 foot cubes of antigravity at once. If you were to dominate one of these critters and have it use it's antigravity to create a sort of platform of antigravity under the bell, you could slowly push the bell along on a 40x40x10 "platform" of antigravity cubes, and use the 5th cube to "push" the bell in the desired direction. Now admittedly you'd need to control a fairly nasty 10hd creature for an extended period of time, but it's nothing that couldn't be done given the excedingly HUGE amount of money you apparently have at your disposal. *edit* also, the wording of the Candle of Invocation seems to suggest that it's Gate is used for summoning, though you're right in that it does not SPECIFICALLY state that you can't use the transportation version of the Gate spell.
stargate525 06-03-06, 01:08 AM	Right off the bat I was going to suggest a portable hole be placed underneath it, but it's just a smidgen too big to fit. I agree, the gates are probably the best bet.
X-Codes 06-03-06, 03:08 AM	Hmm... Search the CO Boards for the Hulking Hurler thread. In that thread is just about every trick in the book for increasing carrying capacity. A character can lift his carrying capacity over his head, which would assume he uses both hands, so anything thats half his carrying capacity could be considered hand-held (if he can lift it over his head with one hand, he can hold it in his hand). In other words, use the Hulking Hurler thread to get up to 1.7m carrying capacity and then use a Glove of Storing to pick up the bell and shrink it down nigh-infinately small into the palm of the glove, and hope to god nobody casts dispel magic. It shouldn't be that expensive since you are going to be using almost all one-shot items instead of things that can be used repeatedly. When you are ready to bring the bell back, take the glove off and put it in the middle of a room and cast Dispel Magic on it.
X-Codes 06-03-06, 03:34 AM	Erk, ok. Not in CO, at least not anymore. Now it's here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=142565&page=1&pp=30
Amnarii 06-03-06, 04:42 AM	thanks for the link; I've seen the thread long ago... didn't think of it for this problem. Now, my problem is trying to scan through the whole thread for the relevant bits. Can someone just post the various one-shot or inexpensive magical items and spells I could purchase to accomplish this feat? Class levels and racial abilities can't be used, since we won't be building a new PC just for this task....
Shaggy_Shaggs 06-03-06, 05:39 AM	Alternately you could just use the money to buy a whole lot of styrofoam padding and hire on an actual hulking hurler, wrap the bell and have the HH throw the thing to where it needs to go.
Pajaul 06-03-06, 06:02 AM	Forget that! do it old school! BRUTE STRENGTH BABY! Cut down some trees, buy a few thousand pints of oil, and place the bell on top of numerous logs. Then push the bell over the logs, taking the last log and placing it in front of the other logs and roll it along! Egyptian style! Or do it Stone Henge style! Strip the bark from trees, cover them in oil, and push/drag the bell across your gigantic bark slip and slide! OR build wheels for the bell, cut out the supports for the bell and let it drop on the wheels, roll it on out of there! OR make the worlds largest air balloon heated by magical fire, tie it to the bell and float it across! OR Melt down the F***king bell into various gold bars, ship it to the destination, re-smelt it. I didn’t see anything about not damaging the bell. Inventing is fun! PC: ARGH MAGICAL HERNIA! DM: you know the answer was to use a legion of squirrels with tiny harnesses… PC: ARGH MAGICAL ANEURISM!
Fireclave 06-03-06, 06:49 AM	Sometimes the simplest answers are the ones right in front of your face. Do you have any idea what kind of magic the bell has. Perhaps the person that made it added a spell to it to help move it around. Get some info with some knowledge checks, bardic knowledge, lore, Detect Magic, Identify, Analyze Dweomer, Legend Lore, and Commune. If you have access to psionics, try Object Reading and Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions to see how the bell got there in the first place.
Tempest Stormwind 06-03-06, 04:08 PM	thanks for the link; I've seen the thread long ago... didn't think of it for this problem. Now, my problem is trying to scan through the whole thread for the relevant bits. Can someone just post the various one-shot or inexpensive magical items and spells I could purchase to accomplish this feat? Class levels and racial abilities can't be used, since we won't be building a new PC just for this task.... Page 14 by default forum settings has the general basis for carrying capacity (Without using template cheese). It's the foundation from which the rest of the advancements have been based on (most of which involve the ball rather than the hurler, so they'll be unimportant). Suffice it to say, though, the hurler depicted there would be capable of JUGGLING three or more of these things, assuming my back-of-the-envelope calculations are close enough (I'm going from memory here, as I was the guy who crunched most of the numbers on the super-hurlers -- the ones you hear about doing a few quadrillion damage in one blow). However, I do support the divination approach (assuming that the bell wasn't built on the spot). The psionic powers in particular should reveal what you're looking for, although you need to get to the bell in the first place. Just duplicate that measure somewhat, resorting to a pair of Gate spells as a backup plan. I just hope that after the long hike to find it, when you ask how it got there, the answer isn't "throw enough slaves at a problem and it isn't a problem anymore." I don't think you brought that many loincloth-clad individuals with you in your Bags of Holding.
greatamericanfolkhero 06-03-06, 05:07 PM	Do you know any friendly high level druids? Maybe some who have enslave.. er, I mean befriended some dire bears, hopefully the kind of dire bears that enjoy the simple pleasures of hauling things through the woods. Or do you know any friendly giants in the campaign? or better yet, gnomes. No, hear me out, with just a handful of gnomes, some pullys, and all the rope the kingdom can spare, some heavy logs, and a hireling or twelve, you should be able to move it anywhere you want to. Just not realy fast. Rome wasn't built in a day, and most likely, neither was this bell. Best of all, with the gnomes, it should only cost a few grand, as opposed to most of the party's wealth. And remember to hire a bard, to sing the tale of your greatness in moving the bell, and to keep everyone motivated, because once the hirelings see the bell, morale is going to fall faster than a puppy kicking paladin
Amnarii 06-03-06, 06:09 PM	And remember to hire a bard, to sing the tale of your greatness in moving the bell, and to keep everyone motivated, because once the hirelings see the bell, morale is going to fall faster than a puppy kicking paladin Now that is a great quote, lmao. I thought of the rope and pulley route, but by standard physics, if my college days aren't TOO far behind me to remember this properly, it would take roughly 1,000 pulleys and 1,000,000 feet of rope for a few dozen (30 ish)average hirelings to move the bell, and they would have to pull the rope 1,000 feet for every foot the bell is actually moved. Then strip the whole setup down after each foot (or thousand feet, depending on your perspective), and set it all up again to move it another foot... not very efficient or cost effective if paying laborers by the day. Just the time to have them move 1,000 feet under heavy load and then back again under no load is roughly 8 minutes when they're fresh... I'm guessing the DM will make sure to throw in some fatigue and exhaustion to slow things down too... The divination might be the best route, except I think the DM has no idea how it got there in the first place; he was immensely surprised when the calculations starting coming to find out the actual weight of such a mass of gold... he probably expected a couple thousand pounds, not 300 or 400+ tons. either he will now adjust his history to have it built on the spot, or since we are being divinely led by the nose at the moment, it may be a divine intervention thing which brought it to the world (of cuorse, why not bring it where we need to take it, if that was the case?) In any case, I mentioned the gate spells to him, and proposed a limited version of the spell which allows for travel only (eliminating the XP cost) put into a scroll or wand, which makes it 3,825 per scroll or 114,750 for a wand - 2,295 per charge if I can talk him into selling me a half-used or lower wand (all I need is 2 charges). We can afford a few of those and I should be able to use them even with my pathetic 3rd-level (6 ranks, total modifier of 11) UMD check.
greatamericanfolkhero 06-03-06, 07:17 PM	Wouldn't you need 4 charges? Two to get it on the boat and two to get it off? I only ask because you said that you didn't know the final destination of the bell. Oh, and make sure the bell doesn't get away from you with the gate spells. My suggestion, ride it "Dr. Strangelove"-style while in the astral. I can't remember off hand, but since it's an unattended object, wouldn’t it just keep moving at the same speed while on the astral it was moving when it dropped into the gate?
utilitarian 06-03-06, 07:29 PM	now, do you NEED the bell to be magic? why not just dispell or negate it, then use reduce item or similar magic to transport it since it then becomes a mundane non magical unattended object.
Amnarii 06-03-06, 07:37 PM	I may need 4 gate spells, if it does indeed go on the boat. However, once we figured the weight, we decided not many boats in the D&D world we're in will hold a 425 ton bell. So, we will have to first locate the bell and find out what it is exactly, how it will be used, and then take that info to find out where we need to get it. Once we discover that, trek back (or maybe teleport back) and then do the gate trick to get it to the final destination. As to dispelling it, we are not sure of any of its properties; however I am fairly certain it is a major artifact and we will be needing its magical properties whenever we find out where/how/why to use it. I did consider something, though - at 50 coins to a pound, 425 tons of gold is worth, in pure metal value alone, 42.5 million gold pieces. If we find the bell, melt it down, and take the money, we could have enough funds to do just about anything; even split 4 ways to make it equal in our party, that is over 10.6 million GP each. And bags of coins are certainly potential targets of the shrink item spell, and they also fit into bags of holding nicely. If we do that, we could have several dozen wish and miracle spells cast, with plenty left over for fun, or starting a few businesses to keep bringing in more money... at which point whatever crisis the bell is supposed to help avert can be taken care of with our ridiculous innate super powers. 30 wish spells, to get +5 to all ability scores, would cost 795,900. Each character would still have over 9.8 million left. With another 30 wish or miracle spells used to grant some supernatural abilities which duplicate low-level spells (spells which were never meant to be usable at will and become almost broken), it still leaves over 9 million gold to spend on magic weapons and armor (and rings of wishes). You'd have plenty left of that 9 million to go and create a city or two, and own all the shops and such in the city, paying hirelings to man the shops; you start generating amazing levels of wealth (like 10 million gold wasn't amazing enough)...any problems that come up you just throw some money at, and/or use your rings of wishes to take care of, or have another specific magic item made, or... ... ...
greatamericanfolkhero 06-03-06, 07:58 PM	I would love to see the look on your DM's face when you turn his Major artifact plot device into enough gold coins to bribe a god.
Fireclave 06-03-06, 10:29 PM	Unless, of course, the bell is indestructible by normal means. Artifacts tend to be rather sturdy. Also, destroying an artifact tends to attract unwanted attention from the powers-that-be-bigger-than-you. Hopefully the gate idea will work. If not, you are going to need something big and scaly. Now might be a good time to befriend a huge sized dragon or a druid with a t-rex animal companion.
utilitarian 06-04-06, 01:35 PM	Make sure to use some Legend Lore and Identify and stuff before you look at melting it down. Most Artifacts require very specific conditions to be destroyed. If it turns out not to be an arifact, go nuts.
Planar Wanderer 06-04-06, 02:44 PM	An idea I've been toying with, you'd have to check it with your DM first but how about taking some wooden cubes or similar, casting levitate on them and placing them under a sheet of wood/metal and using the combined upthrust of the wooden cubes to lift the bell (attempted diagram below), could that work? I /\ ____ oooo where I=bell's support (do not cut until sheet is fully supported and only a small distance from the bell) /\ = bell ___ = wooden sheet o = cube with levitate cast.
Amnarii 06-04-06, 02:50 PM	good idea; I am not sure how many cubes it would take to support 425 tons... will have to look into that. Cubes with permanent levitation would be best; even if it was only just enough to make it movable (i.e. still very ehavy, but 4 people can push it around) - that way it could be loaded onto the ship, still on the levitating cubes...
Wood 06-04-06, 05:28 PM	The answer to this dilemma is one word... Wish
darksamuari 06-04-06, 08:36 PM	What about finding a Zaratan ( turtle island creatures) to bring you to this island. Then hire a large work force to move to bell onto the Zaratan, and have it swim back to the desired destination. The only hard thing about this plan is finding and convincing a Zaratan to help you out.
psionichamster 06-05-06, 08:00 PM	well, how about this: Skate Psychoportation Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1 Display: Material and visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal or touch; see text Target: You or one willing creature or one unattended object (total weight up to 100 lb./level); see text Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: Yes (harmless, object) Power Points: 1 You, another willing creature, or an unattended object can slide along solid ground as if on smooth ice. If you manifest skate on yourself or another creature, the subject of the power retains equilibrium by mental desire alone, allowing her to gracefully skate along the ground, turn, or stop suddenly as desired. The skater’s land speed increases by 15 feet. (This adjustment is treated as an enhancement bonus.) As with any effect that increases speed, this power affects the subject’s maximum jumping distance. The subject can skate up or down any incline or decline she could normally walk upon without mishap, though skating up an incline reduces the subject’s speed to normal, while skating down a decline increases her speed by an additional 15 feet. (This adjustment is treated as a circumstance bonus.) If you manifest skate on an object, treat the object as having only one-tenth of its normal weight for the purpose of dragging it along the ground. 1st lvl psionic power now, it can't make the bell slippery, but how about a platform (akin to the levitated cubes above)...skate a bunch of cubes, make them "permanant" w/ the incarnate power, and use them a a slippery platform o' bell-movin' not perfect, but it drops wt by a factor of ten hell, you've got the money...make an adamantine wagon, use the pulley/ropes trick to get the bell ON said wagon, skate the wheels, and get the army of slaves/beasts of burden to pull the bad boy across land. there is NO way (short of making it non-massive or eliminating gravity) to get that on a typical DnD boat. they displace a couple hundred tons, MAX. this thing would top that. um... best bet: get the hurler up to the carry capacity, and carry the damn thing back. simple, effective, not going to make your DM cry. (of course, if the hurler gets angry, and chucks the gigantic golden bell of weird, that's some serious ouchy to whatever it lands on/near) namaste' the hamster
Kalrin 06-05-06, 09:23 PM	Off hand? Con the BBEG into moving the Bell where you want it to go. If you don't have a BBEG, make one (it shouldn't be too hard to tick off a noble... they are touchy after all). Failing that (and/or any hulking hurler ideas), you could try the Grease Spell (to make it easier to push), a couple of Shovels (to create a slope and roll it to it's destination. Or you could just slice it up (cause gold is fairly soft) and then reassemble it at the target zone (requires a Wizard to fix the thing). Maybe a targeted Dispel Magic (to turn it into a non-magical item temporarly) and then shrink it. A favor from some powerful extradimensional being to move it, or to at least give you one heck of a good pully system. A Greedy Dragon. It'll give it an incentive to figure out how to move the thing. A Greedy Bureaucrat (in case you don't have a dragon). Find an Alchemist who can turn Gold into Copper? (or maybe paper?).
The_Bibliobibuli 06-05-06, 09:53 PM	I'm gonna copy Darksamurai and suggest something from the Arms and Equipment Guide: Soarwhales. ten thousand gold for a creature that can lift 134,400 lbs. you'd only need six or seven, even if it did weigh 850,000 lbs. they even have a relatively low Handle Animal (18 young/25 adult), and if you stuck a howdah and a few archers on each one, your caravan would be decently defended form attacks.
greatamericanfolkhero 06-06-06, 04:16 AM	is there a weight limit on polymorph any object? If not, just hire a wiz who can cast it, and then carry the resulting pebble to where you need it to be and dispell. Just don't be holding it at the time.
Missing Minds 06-06-06, 09:57 AM	You could always "shrink item" it. *edit* oops.. no you can't. Also, as much as I'm *loath* to suggest it, this is the first time on the board I've seen inthe last 2 years that would be perfect for a calculus solution for the volume of the bell. I much perfer algebra. What would really make it easy to move also, 100% frictionless material. coat the bottom of the bell with it, and then just start to push it.