Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Falkthorn 10-22-04, 10:38 PM	I have a dilemma.. One of my fellow players are becoming a Lich, and I know that sooner or later he will try to take my life and the lives of the rest of the party. I am a 15 lvl wizard with the heart of an old paladin and in our party we have the lvl 14 cleric (who at lvl 15 will turn Lich) wich we call Necrolic to his irritation because of his dark powers, a incredebly fat sailor/pirate with "you-name-it-he`s-got-it" diseases and some incredebly sharp swords and a incredibly stupid, but (of course) strong samurai who follows in own stupid little code. The problem is that I might not convince my fellow party mates that the Lich will kill us, so atleast I have to get ready.. Any suggestions?
Blackloch 10-22-04, 10:41 PM	since Im the DM in this session; I only say lol ;) can't wait for the fiiiight!!! :D
The_other 10-22-04, 10:55 PM	Watch carefully on what he makes his Phylactery. When you find it out, you know his weakness. Always keep your eye on his Phylactery since he can't leave it somewhere without telling them dm, unless he is alone, so never leave him alone. And remember, never trust him. Do you have a paladin(which i doubt since you have a evil player) or cleric? If so have them cast Zone of Truth or Discern Lies and question the lich. If he refuses to answer, then ask the party if they feel safe enough to travel with a person that might kill them. If he lies or is forced to tell the truth, destroy his Phylactery.
Arcen 10-22-04, 11:10 PM	I agree with The_other. Also try to get your hands on the Phylactery. If you could catch him with his guard down and get ahold of it, that would be one sweet peice of black mail. Just make sure you put some type of contingency on it. He could just blast you otherwise. Lich's are incredibly powerful and if played correctly almost impossible to destroy. (There's a thread around here somewhere that deals with hiding a Phylactery).
Blackloch 10-22-04, 11:41 PM	you could scry on the lich now and then if he disappears from the party or so once in a while..to see where he hides his lich stone..maybe?! :D dunno for sure if it's possible.. hehe :)
Melpomene 10-23-04, 12:38 AM	My players invented the best way to stop a litch. The big one (orc barbarian/rogue) enhanced with invisability started a grapple. Litches are hard presses to break a grapple like that, and even harder pressed to cast spells while in one. The other party member then took turns kicking the ever-loving c(rud) out of the soul jem. (The LE wizard of We Jass identified it with an arcana check nearly instantly.)
J.B. 10-23-04, 02:54 AM	I agree with Blackloch. Watch him subtley (possibly w/ scrying or invisibility) for the creation of his phylactery. While he rests, sabotage his phylactery in some way as to be useless (work something out with the DM). Feel free to bribe his magic suppliers into selling him shoddy/faulty merchandise so his phylactery will fail from the get-go. Maybe instead, just bribe them to keep an eye out for you and alert you to his activities. If this isn't possible & he becomes a lich, then cast "Sunburst" on his butt if he tries anything.
Lord_Gema 10-23-04, 03:16 AM	:mage: Why does the lich PC always try to kill other pc's.He has more power with you guys around and you with him.Most of his mortal pc's would be dead in 80 years anyway mortals tend to do that and maybe when you are close to death you'll wanna join him in lichdom instead of rotting in the ground.Assasin using high DC poison on his blades he's all yours lich, OHHH NOO!! level draining monk vampire go get him lich also he can pick all cure spells to heal the pcs which he can spontaneously cast as inflict to cure himself.This is how my group handles it.Now the wizard wants to become a lich no more nasty criticals or sneak attack damage.The DM rolling a 20 no longer makes me cringe join us in lichdom:mage:
Blackloch 10-23-04, 10:36 AM	true true. can sense the power questioning, but the day a Falkthorn decides to go undead instead of to "valhall" as he says, is a day the necrolich will start collecting flowers instead of black opal stones... =p there is only one way outta this..through magic and swords :D ;) :cool: what's a good spell to use at a lich? hmm :rolleyes:
Falkthorn 10-23-04, 11:04 AM	I always got a fireball or two to dish out..... ;)
Doh-Doh-Doh 10-23-04, 11:37 AM	I had a dwarf cleric PC turn lich in a party where I was a mage. Personally didn't have a problem with it since I was a necromancer, but the pesky lich started getting out of control. So, my solution was to anonymously inform the local church of Pelor that he was a lich. Shortly after this a group of high level paladins began hunting him down. Falkthorn, I suggest you seek out possible allies in the NPCs you've encountered. Let them loose on your lich "friend". Remember that it was his choice to become a lich, and there should be consequences for his actions.
Blackloch 10-23-04, 11:48 AM	Tel Dara is a paladin u know Falkthorn..? ;)
Grox 10-23-04, 12:15 PM	Can't you always just MDJ the phylactery? If you're a high enough rogue, put it on a trap that he's likely to spring, so that you and your buddies can arrange to be far away from it when it happens. Once that's done, reduce him to 0 hit points, and let the fat lady sing :D
ck2001wendt 10-23-04, 12:56 PM	Does your character KNOW he's turning into a Lich now? If you do, and you suspect he's going to be an EVIL lich (there are good liches out there...see Monsters of Faerun), the easy answer is just kill him in his sleep. Of, if you want to be tricky, sabotage his process by swapping out material components. He drinks the draught and dies...but doens't come back. :mymy: If this is only Player knowledge, and your PCs don't know what's happening, well he's only really vulnerable to Fire or Sonic spells at this point (I believe). The other optionis to get a bad-ass cleric cohort capable of vaporizing him in one shot (see my "Turning Lord of Pelor" build on the Char Op board...can vaporize a 30 HD undead on a Turn attempt at level 13/14). Take leadership at 15th level, then attract the cohort for the express purpose of killing the Lich, and pay for outfitting him. Once your former party mate is dead, the cleric will still make a great healer and undead slayer.
Blackloch 10-23-04, 01:14 PM	the easy answer is just kill him in his sleep. does a Lich sleep? eat? .. I don't think so.. haven't met many undead who do..that's another good thing about becoming a Undead..
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 01:40 PM	Kick him in his piece and run.
Blackloch 10-23-04, 02:01 PM	rofl =) ^^
Lord_Gema 10-23-04, 02:40 PM	Once are group was fighting a vampiric wiz he tried to charm DC30 my lich cleric no dice wasted round.If he would have choose any other we most likely have ended up fighting a party member.Later in the battle the vamp cast 2 fingers of death one quickened finger of death at my lich "wasted" and the other on the fighter fighter which saved.Lich wears armor with face helm to pass himself of as normal.I just want to know why the lich pc is gonna turn on the others you figure if he survived this long he'd realize the need for allies.My lich always applies the poison to the parties rouges weapons to avoid accidental poisoning.Room's floor covered in 100's of poisonous scorps or ability and level drainers I handle it it's almost like I'm a walking dead meatshield vs certain problems.Its a fun group.They had worries when I took up lichdom they were sure that I was gonna turn on the party but we help each other obtain goals we could not do on our own like I posted before the wizard wants to become a lich also.But he wants to enjoy life some more and try to extend his life other ways first I can wait I have till the end of all time. :schemes:
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 02:48 PM	I thought liches became evil when they turned undead. I have only fought against them. Hey, are undead vulnerable to everyman's weakness?
ck2001wendt 10-23-04, 02:53 PM	the easy answer is just kill him in his sleep. does a Lich sleep? eat? .. I don't think so.. haven't met many undead who do..that's another good thing about becoming a Undead.. That's why you kill himi in his sleep BEFORE he's started the process...that's only if you know what the PC is doing, however. Yojimbo99 said: I thought liches became evil when they turned undead. I have only fought against them. Hey, are undead vulnerable to everyman's weakness? Not entirely true. There are indeed benign undead. Monsters of Faerun has the Archlich (generally Human) and the Balenorn (elven), a good Cleric or Wizard that sacrifices his soul in order to better serve the forces of Good, or protect his community, or whatever. Doesn't sound like that's the way this situation is headed, however. Kill him in his sleep or sabotage the process, before he can achieve Lichdom.
Blackloch 10-23-04, 03:04 PM	ck2001wendt: ehh okey sorry there =p misread hehe ;)
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 03:08 PM	My answer still remains kick him in his piece and run.
ck2001wendt 10-23-04, 03:16 PM	Does a Lich even have a "piece?" If not, kicking him there might just remind him of his lost humanity and make him super angry....
Melpomene 10-23-04, 03:18 PM	Phylactery of Faithfulness: The best good thing to do in this situation is simply: Ask him not to. Covince them that becoming a litch is counterproductive, less efficient, too darn evil, etc. If you can convince them that the path is not the best, you don't have to kill them later. You can tell them that, but it might sour things more.
Lord_Gema 10-23-04, 03:19 PM	Undead are immune to criticals,poisons, death effects unless they also work on objects,sneak attack damage, mind spells,death by massive damage,ability damage and thats just all undead liches have a few more.Why does the lich player want to turn on the others?
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 03:25 PM	What? Hah hah can't hear you. No, seriuosly I can't becuase, well, obviuosly we are typing each other messages. Just wanted to let you know, in case you didn't. Hey, does kickin' him there count as a critical? If not, I think it sould.
Blackloch 10-23-04, 03:29 PM	its just plain old PvP u see.. the wizard/arcane order player is not that found off the way the Cleric/cryptlord lich deals with NPC's / quests and how he "runs off" with all the items etc.. im the DM, I think it's just fun =) the fighter/samurai is in the middle hehe ^^
Bloodtide_the_Red 10-23-04, 03:30 PM	.......does a Lich sleep?.......... ---No, a Lich does not sleep.....but if they want to perepare spells they still need the 8 hours of rest. So is your party Evil? Do you realy want to hang out with a Lich? Even more so hang out with a Lich that you feel may someday kill you. You might want to just dump him, or even better..just attack him now. Your Evil right? You could even wait for a big fight and stab him in the back. It happens. So anyway, say he becomes a Lich. What can you do? Well, good thing your a Wizard. Sure a Lich gets some immunities and such, but they are not all powerful. --Don't use Cold, Polymorph, Electricty, Mind-Effecting spells, and anything that effects living folks. At 15th level, you have plenty of powerful magic. Sunburst will nicely do 15D6 damage to him. He gets a save, but there is no resistance/protection against 'unnamed Light damage'(except SR or such). Forcecage, Maze, The Bigby Hand spells can all nicely grab him and hold him up for several rounds. Summon up aid. A huge elemental could sure help, as can any creature that can grapple. Telekinesis-you can bull rush, trip, disarm, and grapple. Or you can use the violent thrust to toss him around. BT
Xandar Dae'Ithil 10-23-04, 03:34 PM	More info please...? How do you know he'll kill you? That's just slightly counter-productive, if he is going to kill you...but do you know this In Character? Or out of character? Or just a guess? Alignments of everyone? If everyone's evil, you should be happy someone's becoming a lich, but should prepare like crazy for a backstabbing. If the party is good, and he's good, then...well, you could try and convince him not to do it, that it's evil, ect...even if he's going for the whole "good lich" thing, although I'm going to doubt him being good, if you think he's going to kill you. And if he's going to be an evil lich, and you're a wizard with a heart of a pally, you should just kill 'em anyway. Maybe spy on him, catch him in the act of trying to become a lich, and kill him then.
Lord_Gema 10-23-04, 03:52 PM	The lich pc in your group sounds chaotic evil you have to take him out.Our group is Lawful evil and Neutral evil so we realize it's us against the world.Some players can't handle evil without becoming CE maniacs killing party members.Of course i have seen groups fall apart by LG pallys forcing there dogma on others and theives stealing from the party.
Blackloch 10-23-04, 03:59 PM	can a lich only choose from being a "Good lich" or "Chaotic Evil lich"? or can he be neutral and etc alignments.. ?!? :)
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 04:13 PM	Go for the groin! The groin!
Lord_Gema 10-23-04, 04:33 PM	The monster manual says any evil so you can have LE,NE or CE.The faerun book has a good lich in it.My lich is LE,wiz is NE,fighter is LE,the rogue/assasin is LE.We all belonged to a now overthrown kingdom as the King's retainers.Damm peasant uprising soon with will return our former King from his planar prison. We had a nice easy life on the backs of those peasants. damm!! rebellion!!!. WE were only around lvl 4 when the good times ended.We only just found out our king was serquestered and placed in a planar prison now we are all between 22 and 24.REVENGE time paladins our ruler will be restored!!!
yojimbo99 10-23-04, 04:36 PM	Not if I stop you! Mwahaha!
Blackloch 10-23-04, 05:00 PM	or Falkthorn "the Lich hater" =p hahahhe
Blackloch 10-23-04, 06:34 PM	what happens, when he becomes a lich, with the fortitude saves and the constitution base score? .. does it just reach 0? does he loose HitPoints and so on? hmm...
Master Agnald 10-23-04, 10:50 PM	what happens, when he becomes a lich, with the fortitude saves and the constitution base score? .. does it just reach 0? does he loose HitPoints and so on? hmm... My guess is that you just have to reroll all the HP die (as it becomes a d12), CON modified=+0. Now... as to the fortitude saves... they're pretty much screwed, as it'll be only the base tests (and equipment granted stuff). But anyways, who needs FORT when you're immune to poison, diseases, instant death and 95% of things that allow FORT saves... ...now, as to destroying him... sunburst away! Maximize, potentialize, whatever (is Sunburst's save a FORT save? if so, then... :D ). Use haste to get an extra spell per turn. Kill him as fast as possible. And make sure you keep a safe distance from him... don't let him touch you if he's got Harm as a prepared spell that day... Harm is one nasty cleric spell.
Falkthorn 10-23-04, 11:52 PM	Ok, for those who asked why I want this Lich dead.. Blackloch (my DM) already mentioned that he tries to mess up with NPC`s we have met and steals items etc, and just beeing pure evil, here are some examples : We are walking towards the dwarven city through the mountains to meet some pepole who we need to see about our quest. We come over some dwarves that have been ambushed a little while back, one of them a dead dwarf woman cradling a dead dwarf baby. We were in no shape to give them a proper burial so we move on, but in a act of goodness (atleast we thought so) the cleric (who is becoming a lich) ressurected the dwarven baby, only to brake is neck soon after. I actually think that the rotting baby still lies inside his bag of holding. We find the fallen dwarven city and manage to find a few surviving dwarves and try to get them all in the spirit to fight back the underdark threat that still remains. Among the surviving dwarves there were a few powerful clerics holding up the spirits of the dwarves. The samurai and me are out exploring the caves with some dwarves when we hear a loud noise and run back towards the city. In some strange way the statue of Moradin (a HUGE HUGE HUGE statue wich brings the last hope to the survivors) breaks apart, and with it all the cleric powers of the surviving clerics disappear.. And our cleric was "sleeping".. We are on a quest that will, if succeded save mankind (and dwarfkind), and this quest were given to us by a Paladin order. When we have done this quest, and if we succeed we will go back there to report to them what have happened. We all know that the Lich cannot enter that city, or the sacred lands for that matter. They will sense his evil from afar, and with this I think he will try to have som fun with us at the end of this quest.. I`m a high ranking member of the Arcane Order and have thought of a possible plan made after reading the suggestions that`s been written here. None of my order would like a powerful Lich to roam the lands, and with this I plan to make a quest for the other lower members of my order. They will have 24/7 scrying of him and report to me everything that he does, what spells he memorizes, that foul gods he adress and one more thing.. Where he hides his phylactery.. And when they sense the final battle coming, they are to teleport and assist me in ridding our world of this evil..
Lord_Gema 10-24-04, 03:44 AM	So why don't you just do this with every enemy?HMMM..? Who is gonna waste their time 24/7 scrying a newly formed lich when there are older and more dangerous liches out there.Not to mention devils, demon lords other evil wizards and clerics. If the DM lets you enlist aid he will probaly do the same for the lich and he can make allies level draining allies,he could get a fellow evil cleric to true res some villians you killed that hate you or have that priest true res him when he dies sure he'll be alive now but angry also.He could leave his phylactery at a temple protected from scrying filled with undead, other clerics,blackguards and others that follow his dark god.
Falkthorn 10-24-04, 08:30 AM	Well, the thing is that when he goes Lich he is level equivilent (if I spelled that right) of a lvl 19, and that`s his ace. My ace is the Arcane Order. And as a higher ranking member, soon a Regent, I have the power to use the members in my Order. And the Lich doesn`t suspect, yet, that we know of his evil plans..
ck2001wendt 10-24-04, 10:48 AM	And the Lich doesn`t suspect, yet, that we know of his evil plans.. You just said the magic words, Falkthorn! Because he's not a Lich yet, and you know he's going to try and become one! Here are the 3 steps to overcoming your problem. 1. Make SURE you know what's going on. Have a Good/Neutral Cleric cast Divinaiton, or Commune, or something and confirm that the Cleric is trying to become a Lich. 2. If your party has a Paladin, tell him to "go take a walk in the woods for a half hour." 3. Kill your Cleric friend in his sleep, when he's not wearing armor and he's burned most of his spells. 3a. At some point during the battle, as Yojimbo99 suggested, kick him in his piece. But do NOT run away...at least not until you've killed him and Disintegrated the body. If you KNOW he's going to do something down the road that's going to potentially kill you, why are you sitting around waiting to react? Why not just be proactive and deal with the problem while it's still managable (before he's four ECL higher than the party)?
Falkthorn 10-24-04, 12:02 PM	Ok, my character is not entirely certain of his plans, but he knows his evil and got alot of knowledge about the arcane and religions, he`s got a feeling of what`s to happen. But when it comes to killing him before he turns a Lich there are some other considerations. There are players behind each character, and if I were to kill him now before he reaches power he will certainly rip up all his character sheets and run out of the house crying. So I cannot really do anything before he is "ready", or someone will just be mad..
Darkness_Falls 10-24-04, 12:05 PM	Liches take d10 days to 'respawn' after dying, right? While he's 'away', take his phylactery to the order of paladins you mentioned, cast a quick Gate spell to take them to the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, and get them to chuck the thing into the infinite lake of holy water that surrounds it. D10 days later, the local archons hear a strange hissing noise, and cries of 'IT BURNS! AAAGGHH!' floating across the water... :D
ck2001wendt 10-24-04, 12:07 PM	But when it comes to killing him before he turns a Lich there are some other considerations. There are players behind each character, and if I were to kill him now before he reaches power he will certainly rip up all his character sheets and run out of the house crying. So I cannot really do anything before he is "ready", or someone will just be mad.. He'll feel better if you kill him AFTER he reaches power? Honestly, if the player doesn't see this confict coming and throws a tantrum, maybe he's not someone you want to be playing with, friend or no...
Blackloch 10-24-04, 12:51 PM	whittter; when he becomes a Lich I doubt a PvP fight between the two of u will be fair when considering his new powers.. don't sit and wait for the rogue to go behind your back as I say..what happened to your wizards Intelligence?.. no wizard of my knowledge would let an enemy of his become more powerful before he is to challenge/kill him.. BUT, as the DM once again..I only hope this doesn't ruin my campaign hehe * :weep: * remember; keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.. ;)
Mind Rogue 10-24-04, 01:16 PM	You better kill him before he finishes crafting that phylectory, or else you might actually be doing him a favor. Once he makes that phylectory, the next time he dies he becomes a lich (hence most perform ritual suicide) and will rise in 1d10 days with all of his lich powers (which will make him very powerful). Thus, be sure to interrupt him from completeing his phylectory. Its not as important to get him while he's sleeping because if he stops to fight you all the work on his little box is ruined and he will have to start all over again, even if he does defeat you (hopefully you have an escape plan). If you wait, you will have to find the phylectory and destroy it, otherwise he'll just keep coming back, and one of these times, he will win.
Blackloch 10-24-04, 01:34 PM	how does the construction of the phylectory work again? don't have my books where I am now :( does it require a lab or such? :confused: :)
Mind Rogue 10-24-04, 02:01 PM	It's just like crafting any other item. You need to have craft wonderous item and be at least 11th caster level. Then you acquire the materials (which cost 120,000 gp) needed to craft the item (many are probably illegal and/or only available in larger cities). Then you sit down in quiet seclusion for about 4 months and build the thing, during which time you can perform no combat or spellcasting, although you can eat, talk to your assistants, cooks, friends (or former friends) who stop by and the like. After this time, you have finished constructing the little box or amulet, and the 4,800 Xp that you expend go into your phylectory to be a "back-up" soul for you. When you die, your spirit homes in on your phylectory, no matter where it is, and travels to it. It broods there for 1d10 days as it strengthens itself for reanimation. I think in previous versions of the game, it would take over a new host to revive if your own body was not in close proximity to your own body. I also think that you had to drink special potions that were incredibly hard to concoct, but they did away with that. Don't hold me to that, since I've never actually played anything earlier than 3.0. I do believe though that the act of creating the phylectory alone does not make you a lich. There are probably other things rolled into that too, which should be talked over with your DM if you plan on becoming one. However, I think that the rules mostly roll them in with actually creating a phylectory. After that, I guess you remain alive and without any of your lich powers until you die, afterwhich you raise as a lich after 1d10 days (meaning if you need to, you can remain as a living character to take care of some unfinished business after creating the phylectory but before becoming a lich). Once you die though, your raise as a lich in only a few days. At this point raise dead cannot affect you, but ressurection can return you to your living self, sans lich powers, but only if you are willing.
Blackloch 10-24-04, 02:44 PM	hehe 4 months.?!?! are u sure? ... omg.. this will be a drawback in my campaign since the PC's are in a rush to stop the portal.. well well =) have too cook something up then =) ^^ ;) thanks for the info MindRogue!
Mind Rogue 10-24-04, 03:14 PM	actually, I think it might be 8 months. The MM lists the cost to create a phylectory as being 120,000 gp. You need to double that to find its market price. Then you take one day per 1000 gp to make it. Since there are roughly 30 days in a month, that would take 8 months to build, 4 months if you don't double the cost to create.
Blackloch 10-24-04, 03:24 PM	8 months?!?! hahaheh are u REAAAALLY sure about this? omg.. dunno if the player knows this hehe.. maybe he does and wants to trick me and not mention it hahahe :mad:
Falkthorn 10-25-04, 01:15 AM	He'll feel better if you kill him AFTER he reaches power? Actually yes, because then it would be a fair fight (blah blah, uberpowerful Lich). I know he would whine the DM and me to death if I were to kill him before he becomes a Lich.
Galen McGown 10-25-04, 01:21 AM	As far as fighting a lich goes (if you can't get directly at the phylactery) disintegrate can be a useful spell. It is one of the few spells against which undead have to make a fortitude save and they just aren't that good at it. Though a long phylactery construction may take care of your problems before they hatch.
Blackloch 10-26-04, 12:58 AM	so, except for "Sunburst" and "Disintegrate" what other spells is good for a Lich slaying Wizard ? :)
Dargan Griess 10-26-04, 09:30 AM	Heal, but it takes a touch attack. Perhaps grapple heal, heal, smash with a rock and dont forget phalactory, volcano after its dead. Its what Im going to try on Friday.
ck2001wendt 10-26-04, 09:46 AM	If you've got a hierophant in the party, he can Divine Reach that heal (ranged touch attack). It's not touching a Lich you have to worry about...it's them touching you back.
Mind Rogue 10-26-04, 10:45 AM	How about mass cure critical wounds? Not only do you hurt the lich, but you heal your allies too!
Blackloch 10-26-04, 12:10 PM	wizard spells?! ... =p hehe not cleric Falk: how about tossing that phalactory down a "bottomless pit" spell in Relics And Rituals ^^ ;)
ikki 10-26-04, 12:23 PM	My players invented the best way to stop a litch. The big one (orc barbarian/rogue) enhanced with invisability started a grapple. Litches are hard presses to break a grapple like that, and even harder pressed to cast spells while in one. The other party member then took turns kicking the ever-loving c(rud) out of the soul jem. (The LE wizard of We Jass identified it with an arcana check nearly instantly.) Sounds like the dumbest idea ever... ya know, liches have this paralysing touch attack, and grappling... well isnt that a automatic touch? So whoever grapples ends up paralysed. Also you cannot use truth detecting or magical interrogation on liches... immune against mind affecting stuff... As for never leaving the player alone and listening on what he tells the dm, thats just so LOW. Lich, use notes passed to the dm, who then burns the note.
Gamebird 10-26-04, 06:02 PM	I am a 15 lvl wizard with the heart of an old paladin... Now that's just gross! And you're complaining about the guy who wants to be a liche? :D Oh well, that aside, it's pretty simple. Here are your options: 1. Stop adventuring with him now. You can either run for your life or plot to kill him. The deal is, if I were hanging out with someone who informed me of his intention to emulate Jeffrey Dahmer's eating habits, they would cease to be my business partner and adventuring bud. 2. Keep adventuring with him and kill him at the next convenient opportunity, BEFORE he becomes a liche. See #1 for rationale. 3. Become a liche yourself. After all, you're a wizard. It has a lot of benefits. 4. Wait until he becomes a liche. In the meantime, pen a scroll of Disintegration, Teleport and Limited Wish. Buy a scroll of Teleport Any Object that will teleport any precisely described item to you. Once he's a liche, go to a cleric who can cast Commune and have them find out where the liche's phylactery is. Use the additional questions for description of the phylactery. Use the last question to find out where the liche is. Teleport the phylactery to yourself. Cast Limited Wish that the next target for a Disintegration spell from yourself will fail their save. Smash the phylactery. Teleport yourself to the liche's location. Cast Disintegrate on him. Problem solved.
Darth K'Trava 10-26-04, 06:15 PM	Sounds like you need to "fight fire with fire". The lich was a former cleric? Then sic a good cleric on his butt.... with lots of undead-damaging spells, turning attempts, mass cure spells, ranged touch attack to use Heal on it. And add in holy water, holy weapons, etc....
Falkthorn 10-26-04, 11:46 PM	4. Wait until he becomes a liche. In the meantime, pen a scroll of Disintegration, Teleport and Limited Wish. Buy a scroll of Teleport Any Object that will teleport any precisely described item to you. Once he's a liche, go to a cleric who can cast Commune and have them find out where the liche's phylactery is. Use the additional questions for description of the phylactery. Use the last question to find out where the liche is. Teleport the phylactery to yourself. Cast Limited Wish that the next target for a Disintegration spell from yourself will fail their save. Smash the phylactery. Teleport yourself to the liche's location. Cast Disintegrate on him. Problem solved. This sounds like a well thought out plan :)
Mind Rogue 10-27-04, 12:08 AM	Well, limited wish only instills a -7 penalty on the lich's next saving throw, but that is still enough to almost guarentee that he fails. If you have heighten spell or anything else that can improve the save DC (fox's intellect comes to mind) then by all means use it. You want him to fail that save. You might want to keep a backup on hand, just in case. I don't know what kind of spell you could use to teleport the phylectory to you, since you probably cannot mark it for an instant summons spell, but you can still try to divine its whereabouts. Commune might be useful, but remember that the deity responds in yes or no answers. Vision is probably going to end up being more useful to you, since it gives you a discription, but their is also possibility of failure. Once you have an idea of what the phylectory is and where it is, you should teleport there, then use locate object to find it. Since you have never actually seen it, you will sadly have to look for an object of the same type. Once you find it, pocket it, go kill your friend, then smash the phylectory. The reason for this is I'm not sure if the lich would have some way of knowing if his phylectory was destroyed, but if he does, he would certainitly prepare for your comming.
Blackloch 10-27-04, 01:05 AM	best one yet =) ^^
Gamebird 10-27-04, 01:56 PM	Commune might be useful, but remember that the deity responds in yes or no answers. From the SRD on Commune: . In cases where a one-word answer would be misleading or contrary to the deity’s interests, a short phrase (five words or less) may be given as an answer instead. The key is not to ask questions that can be answered by yes or no. Of course, your DM might be the type to say the spell doesn't work unless you ask yes/no questions. Mine isn't. I don't know about yours. A good aligned deity should be very interested in seeing a liche destroyed, thus would be willing to give a short phrase answer. Even if the deity will only answer yes/no questions, you can still just play 20 questions. Virtually any material item can be narrowed down in less than 20 questions. Just cast Commune multiple times if necessary.
Mind Rogue 10-27-04, 02:29 PM	Commune You contact your deity - or agents thereof - and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no. I think this suggests that if the question is not a yes/no answer, the question is either not answered or you recieve a non-sensical answer. The short phrase only comes into play if a yes/no answer would not properly answer your yes/no question. I could not ask, "What is the creature living in the cave by the windmill?" but I could ask, "Is there a troll living in the cave?" If there really is a troll, I get a "yes answer, and if there is not, I get a "no" answer. If there is a troll polymorphed into a man, or vice-versa, I would probably get an answer like "sort of", "in a way", or "kind of," because a simple yes or no would paint a horribly inacurate picture. Thus you do have to ask 20 questions. Good choices probably include "Is it a box?" "Is it an amulet?" "Is it made of iron/steel?" "Does it have a gemstone?" "Does he carry it with him?" "Is it buried?" and other such questions, as long as you make it clear that "he" refers to the lich and "it" to the phylectory.
Blackloch 10-28-04, 05:54 PM	Falk teh Wiz "with pally heart" will surely win over the evil lich!! ^^ :D
Galen McGown 10-28-04, 10:01 PM	One more thought on that disintegrate - might want to toss yourself a true strike if you can fit it into the timing. You need to make that ranged touch attack as well as get him to fail the save, and if he has lots of deflectiony protections, you might need a decent hit roll otherwise. Sorry, can't help on the commune - our DM is rather stingy on giving answers to that kind of thing... But maybe you can get yourself a stealthy familiar that can watch him when he hides this thing - especially if said familiar can hide in his pockets.