Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deviknyte 10-22-07, 09:30 AM	I've got a puzzler. And to make a long story short the only game that I can play in right now (with people I know) is being run terrible. I've only played twice but the DM just isn't with it all the way. I thought it'd be great role-playing (DM is a writer, although now I really have to read something of hers) and I'd be explaining a little rules here and there because they're new but not so much. My first complant is that she's got a character. Now this is fine. I've done it before. Usually in same groups or just to give the characters a healer or rogue. Guidance NPC to move the chapters a long. Or a comic outlet for me (considering most NPC aren't jokesters and I've got a strict in character rule). But her character is a blatant character. She cares for her alot. But she's the MAIN character, which is bad form for any DM. Just in the last adventure we were all in this helpless spot (bad DMing), trap in a village full of NPC's whos powers went beyond the rules (which is okay until this next sentence), who were forcing us to deal with a monster problem. They all control sand at will with ease and one of them controls time! Why are they asking me to deal with the giant sand whale? Anyways, than her character takes their leader aside and extorts him for information (which none of us saw). Why would they be afraid of her? I know she's got the potential but because she can describe a scene, box text and monologue like no tomorrow. But when it comes to PC/NPC interaction it seems a little lacks. She does the n008 mistake of "she tells you," and "he says." During our last adventure she was describing things to us that our characters shouldn't/wouldn't know. Cool stuff but just giving it away instead of us finding out through interaction with the environment. Rule wise she's letting the other two experienced players beat her around. Really cheap stuff that they've got to know better (although this is my first time playing with them). Also the new players aren't doing to well. The fourth level wizard didn't know just to add two spells to his book at each level without a scroll or another wizards book. The characters are poorer than dirt. They barely know how actions work. Now here's my question. I love all these guys... well I love 4 of these guys and tolerate 2 of them. I never get to play, I'm always DM. I don't know if I can deal with the lacks rules in the game. I got out of d10 and d100 games because of lack of the rules controlling the game and even more so lack of balance. I also want to help them out. I love teaching people how to play the game right, you know like spreading what you love. But I don't want to be helping out and have her feel like I'm taking over her game or feel insulted. What should I do? Do I continue to not play? Deal with it just to hang out?
deathbane 10-22-07, 12:08 PM	You should just tell them what they are doing wrong and be prepared to show them the rules in the book. Just be honest
Dog_O_War 10-22-07, 12:38 PM	You need to have a face to face talk with the DM, outside of the game (and preferrably a few days before the game so she has a chance to alter it). Maybe start off with, "I want to continue to play your game - I see great potential in it". Then explain to her that being a side character to the DM's PC is every players' worst nightmare. As much as it is good for the story, it is more-so detrimental for the game. Also, an explanation on why balance is important would be needed (sand-controlling people? I'd ask why we're so special and why they can't do it themselves). As for the rules end of things; this is what I do (whether asked or not; players hate me for it and the DM actually tolerates my rules-lawyering because of it) I give the proper ruling whenever I smell abuse on the horizon. Cleave while moving? not on my watch. DM forgot an AoO? that's me piping in, "...attack of opportunity..." Because I do this, the players have changed the way they play to a more fair style, which meant I don't have to do this as much. As well, maybe sit down beside the "noobs" when you play to offer hints and tips while they play. You don't have to do it all the time, but I find that new players appreciate a hand once in a while (a friend of mine does this for new guys; I tend to sound like I'm giving orders, so I don't do it). Your position is a hard one, one I've only seen (a couple of the DM's I play with have the same situation - I have only recently attempted my turn behind the screen; I enjoy it, and it gives them a chance to play).
trapspringer 10-22-07, 12:48 PM	Can't go wrong with honesty. Here's a couple 'a easy ways to minimize your chances of an incident: 1. Do it in private 2. Start out talking about what a good job she's doing with [something she's good at] and how you really want her to keep DMing because she's so good at [what ever it is she does really well). 3. Be constructive, be positive. No one likes to hear "You are doing a bad job," so instead talk about ways to improve, not points she's failing on. Things like "Your DMPC is stealing the spotlight" can be as easily communicated with "The players would like to spend more time in the spot light, feeling more in control." 4. Conclude by talking about the strong points of the game and what you are looking forward to. "I sure am looking forward to that fight with the dragon. I can't wait to see your take on it!" Keep it positive, after all the game should be fun for everyone and rubbin' a little ego to get where you're goin' never hurt anyone (well, except that one guy...).
ff6shadow 10-22-07, 01:05 PM	I pretty much agree with everyone else. Talk with her privately well before the game, and be honest. And definetly compliment first. Don't know about anybody else, but when somebody in my group comes with a complaint, I appreciate it when they start talking about what they like first.
Ultima0071 10-22-07, 01:17 PM	I have a a close scenario in my campaign. I can't player a character cause' all the players aren't good enough DMs. I get ****** off when they Dm since they don't care if their players break the rules. For example, the other day I couldn't DM so someone "subbed" for me. Turns out the most powerful guy in the party was using two weapons without penalties. For goodness sake, SHOOT ME! I almost blew up at the DM. Teach the DM. It CANNOT hurt. If it continues, leave the group. Hope I could help, Ultima0071
deviknyte 10-24-07, 08:49 AM	Thanks for the input everyone. I'll talk to her about it before the next game session. We played yesterday (I hadn't had the chance to check this before hand). And to start off with I've been trying to pipe in rules where I see them needed like you Dog_O_War, (bty, I didn't mean the n008 comment. I love new players the more the merrier). I've gone through a couple of their characters and helped them out with a correction here are there. Although a few of them haven't been happy about some of the down grades they've taken. But yesterday wasn't a good session for me or her. Everytime something came up in question everyone stared at me like I was the sage or something. I think it frustrated her. And I've got some ideas for some of the problems she's having right now. I want to just go through the PHB and DMG with her. Contrary to all my question post, I've got a pretty good handle on the rules. Do you think giving her a run through on adventure building is too much or should I just explain her role-playing mistakes to her and let the roll playing fix itself through trial and error?
deathbane 10-24-07, 09:50 AM	Thanks for the input everyone. I'll talk to her about it before the next game session. We played yesterday (I hadn't had the chance to check this before hand). And to start off with I've been trying to pipe in rules where I see them needed like you Dog_O_War, (bty, I didn't mean the n008 comment. I love new players the more the merrier). I've gone through a couple of their characters and helped them out with a correction here are there. Although a few of them haven't been happy about some of the down grades they've taken. But yesterday wasn't a good session for me or her. Everytime something came up in question everyone stared at me like I was the sage. I think it frustrated her. And I've got some ideas for some of the problems she's having right now. I want to just go through the PHB and DMG with her. Contrary to all my question post, I've got a pretty good handle on the rules. Do you think giving her a run through on adventure building is too much or should I just explain her role-playing mistakes to her and let the roll playing fix itself through trial and error? The role-playing will probably come on its own. Some people just take longer to get into that part of the game, and some don't care for it at all.
albinomonkeyking 10-24-07, 11:49 AM	And I've got some ideas for some of the problems she's having right now. I want to just go through the PHB and DMG with her. Contrary to all my question post, I've got a pretty good handle on the rules. Do you think giving her a run through on adventure building is too much or should I just explain her role-playing mistakes to her and let the roll playing fix itself through trial and error? I wouldn't worry about the sage thing, I usually DM with for my old DM, god knows he is better than me, and a rules lawyering friend who knows virtually everything better than I do. The DM doesn't have to be the omnipotent knowledge giver, just the leader. I think if you took the DM aside, as as not to possibly embarrass her, and explain calmly, and as nicely as you can your problems, and then you offer to help her out, she shouldn't take it poorly. Being ignorant is nothing to be ashamed of, if you are trying to help her improve her DMing she shouldn't take offense, especially if you are willing to do so out of sight from the other players.
trapspringer 10-24-07, 08:45 PM	The role-playing will probably come on its own. Some people just take longer to get into that part of the game, and some don't care for it at all. Story-book narration is totally valid (if you need proof beyond the fact that there are no rules, the core books expressly state this to be a "valid" form), it's just not the norm. Frankly, if the DM was an author I think I'd encourage it. You should deal with problems as soon as they arise so no one gets to frustrated or heated about it.
1 ton ghost 10-26-07, 03:51 PM	"it takes a village" so to speak. you hae to groom a DM, they don't just pop up ready to go. that being said, some PCs give each other $hit for noting negatives that would happen to them the DM has forgotten. you should reward this initiative. if you don't, you're cheating. when we catch you cheating in my campaign, yoink! character sheet becomes mine, often in twain, and you often are shown the door, sometimes violently on more than one occaision, not by choice. all PCs are mini DMs in there own right. don't just make her look up a spell you don't know, beat her to the punch, give her tha page number so everyone can hear and throw in their 2 cents. group learning. i use the term loyal opposition for this all the time. taking advantage of her is going to screw all PCs and stunt her growth. be merciless for those that are exploiting her green status. she'll respect you more for your honesty, but critique her gently. the DM's NPC choice character needs to go. i understand the need to have a guide or glue for the party, but it smacks of an attention-getting element that just happened to work in game. PCs are the "players", not the DM. open and shut case.
DM_Shonuff 10-26-07, 04:36 PM	I had this issue exactly myself. I was my DM for my crew for a long long time. I moved for work reasons for a year and had to find a new game. I thought " yes I finally get to play. I found a gods-blessed crew that just lost their DM and they wanted to have me DM. "what? wait..No no, I want to play." So one of the girls of the group got up and thought she knew enough to DM. We let her start a campaign that she seemed she had worked out already. it seemed fine until she had a DMPC in the group,(her own) and the story was ACTUALLY A STORY, she wrote about her character... No rules were used..she shrugged when someone asked to roll a die (for combat even!) She had the results alreeady written out in her novel, so the combats and even the player actions were moot. Get on the train boys and girls... I took this railroad of a campaign for about 2 sessions, then this is what I did: I privately pulled her aside, and discussed her "DM Style" with her and compared her to me, with neither the "right way" or the "wrong way" just differences.. Then I complimented her on her ideas and suggested something that YOU might want to look into. I suggested we CO DM a new campaign. She could spin a yarn like no one and I had the rules down in my brain and I had all the books. Ever see multiple lawyers in a courtroom sitting at one table? they write notes to each other? That's how we ran it. I did NOT want to DM again. I comprimised that I would co-DM a group with her, doing all the crunch, leaving the fluff to her. She sat and told the story, the players would ask a question, and she'd look at me when the Players looked at me too. I would NOT answer the players. I'd write the answer out on the paper as it was being asked...and let the DM, (her) answer using my answer.since I slid the note in front of her books, it looked like that she was looking the answer up. This helped her LEARN the rules...Learn what is YES and NO, and when dice are needed.(or wanted from the player's perspective.) Since it was a new campaign, she saw that the player's actions NEED to affect the story, or else you're reading them a bedtime story with no interaction. As my teacher in school once showed me... "Teach from the side, not from in front." Don't sit out as a player and expect to teach the DM..that's disrespectful. Don't sit out there or beside her and answer the questions to her game..let HER answer with your answers...don't look at the PCs unless they're looking at her. you don't want the players to think you are the DM..all you are, from her side, is a rules lawyer..but from her perspective..you're HER rules lawyer. Be that walking rulebook and know-all sage for one full campaign. (yes I KNOW IT SUCKS) ,but if one campaign of CO-DMing, prevents future campaigns of crappy gaming...isn't it worth it? Just thought this may help your group. Good luck.
Man in the Funny Hat 10-26-07, 07:40 PM	And I've got some ideas for some of the problems she's having right now. I want to just go through the PHB and DMG with her. Contrary to all my question post, I've got a pretty good handle on the rules. Do you think giving her a run through on adventure building is too much or should I just explain her role-playing mistakes to her and let the roll playing fix itself through trial and error?Start by telling her just about the problems that YOU have with her inexperience and style. Don't tell her how to do her job - just tell her that you have issues with how she does it. Of course, tell her that you are more than willing to offer suggestions based on your own experience that would make the game better for YOU. It's hardly surprising that new DM's (and especially authors-turned-DM's) become overly fascinated with the position of control and power that they find themselves in and try to force a story or make the game all about what THEY want, not what the players might want. Simply pointing out that it's disappointing to play second bannana tagalong PC in a game run by the DM AND dominated by the DM's character should generally be enough to demonstrate the error of her ways and she'll correct it on her own. The game is about the PC's and what the players have their PC's do, NEVER EVER about the DM and what the DM's NPC's and characters do. If a DM wants to play they need to give up the seat to do that. If they want to DM then they WILLINGLY sacrifice direct control over unfolding events - that control belongs to the players. No matter how willing experienced players are to provide help and advice, no matter how many DMing tips and instructions a DM might get, the only way to REALLY learn to be a good DM is to simply DO IT, and that means making the mistakes - but accepting that you WILL make mistakes and be willing to accept criticism and make changes to fix them.
deviknyte 11-01-07, 09:52 AM	Thanks for all the suggestions guys. Haven't gotten the chance to get with her yet. But I asked if I could help and she seems up for it.
Etarnon 11-10-07, 03:33 PM	Well there are two ways to go. Be gentle, and suggest out of game, that you need less of the DM NPC "Star" and more for the players who need to be challenged, and need interaction with the story. Let it remain as it is, and she'll learn, sink or swim. You were DM, and are no longer. Let her run it her way, if people hate it, they'll bail. This does not suggest that you don't help her, but be careful that you aren't doing it to make her style more like what seems to be yours. Seems to me like you like a rules heavy game, and she likes a story / plot heavy game. Best practice is as you suggest likely a mix between the two. An interesting, and enjoyable thread, lots of good ideas here. The game is about the PC's and what the players have their PC's do, NEVER EVER about the DM and what the DM's NPC's and characters do. I disagree. My NPCs do background stuff, all the time. Big Bad overlord guys burning villages spark an adventure. 3 paladins rush off to slay evil, 2 are killed, one is near dead, and needs rescued. All adding to the game history. Nations composed entirely of NPCs, fight each other in wars, for the background story which spurs adventures for the PCs in nation 3, which plays both sides. Perhaps you meant "Railroading style DM NPCs?"
Man in the Funny Hat 11-11-07, 12:51 AM	The game is about the PC's and what the players have their PC's do, NEVER EVER about the DM and what the DM's NPC's and characters do. I disagree. My NPCs do background stuff, all the time. Big Bad overlord guys burning villages spark an adventure. 3 paladins rush off to slay evil, 2 are killed, one is near dead, and needs rescued. All adding to the game history. Nations composed entirely of NPCs, fight each other in wars, for the background story which spurs adventures for the PCs in nation 3, which plays both sides. Perhaps you meant "Railroading style DM NPCs?"Do the players gather together to mostly listen to you tell them all about what the NPC's did this week? Are their characters present in the game world simply to give them a first-person window into the game history while they watch from the bleachers? Or are they actually there to PARTICIPATE in it? To create that history, to influence it and drive it forward with their actions, however far removed and tangential those actions may be? Yes, NPC's do things when the PC's aren't there, and game events will occur whether the PC's affect them or not - but the players don't play to support what the NPC's do. The NPC's exist to give a framework and interactivity to what the PC's do. No matter how involved and dynamic the world and people around them are the game is played to show what the PLAYER characters do. It is about them - always.
Etarnon 11-11-07, 08:34 AM	With all due respect, that's one way to play it. People like Ed Greenwood, et al think differently, else we wouldn't have such massive works as Grand History of the Realms, and such. My thesis is that NPCs have a place upon the stage and not all worlds revolve directly around the PCs, or should, unless the game is some setup such as "King & Advisors." Not all games have the scope and scale of "A party of 4 adventurers raid dungeon X."
Man in the Funny Hat 11-11-07, 09:05 PM	With all due respect, that's one way to play it. People like Ed Greenwood, et al think differently, else we wouldn't have such massive works as Grand History of the Realms, and such. My thesis is that NPCs have a place upon the stage and not all worlds revolve directly around the PCs, or should, unless the game is some setup such as "King & Advisors." Not all games have the scope and scale of "A party of 4 adventurers raid dungeon X."You miss the point. You're only correct when you say that the "world" doesn't necessarily revolve around the PC's. Particularly at low levels it is obviously the NPC's who are the movers, shakers and important persons in the world. Even at high PC levels that may still be true. But the "campaign" sure does revolve around the PC's; the game sessions the players participate in are about what THEIR characters do, not what the NPC's do. The players don't gather together at the table to hear readings from Grand History of the Realms. GAMEPLAY is about their own characters. The GHotR is simply material for the DM to use as backdrop to what the PC's do.
LittleKey 11-12-07, 01:29 AM	Really, if you just show her what you posted, that could help.
deviknyte 11-15-07, 11:06 AM	Hey guys here's an update. She's under my wing and she's pretty much enjoying it. We've only done one sessions due to scheduling, dirty Wal-Mart, but things went a lot smoother. The get togethers we've had have taken an ease on her fustrations with the rules in general. And she understood completely that I wasn't telling her what to do, I just thought that structure (that and the excitement of chance are the reason we play a GAME versus just pretend), would give her and her players a more statisfying game. I definitly loved DM_Shonuff's Co-DM idea, especially the pass the paper one. I pass her blank notes during random times so it looks like I'm just sending her info about what my character is doing that the other players wouldn't know, to throw everyone off. I'm hoping that within a few sessions are too everyone will be looking toward everyone for rulings and her as a moderator. But like a good player I'm piping in whenever someone's trying to pull a fast one, even if it's not intentional. Her "character" has taken on more of a plot-guider role. The first thing she did was came to us with information. After the plot hook dropped the other players moved forward with the story with the captian right behind us. I think she quickly got the it's the players show thing. In fact I've never been opposed to a "DM pet," as me and my old group called them, so long as he/she doesn't run the story and it depends on the "pet's" personality. I've also helped her with her other NPC (the ships crew), because the higher level guys on the ship were a big problem. I'm teaching her things like using a cool concept within the rules. Her sand manipulaters became wizards, just shield became sand shield. I'm working on teaching her when rolling should be used and when rolling is what the players want. I'm also trying to teach the players and keep fair play in their minds. One of them got mad at me because I spoke up about him casting in melee. I told him it's in the rules and your going to have to play like very mage that came before you. And to Etarnon. NPC's are important. Your not suppose to just be going into dungeons. There is no emotion or depth to that. No intrigue or suspense. They're the people who make the world a world. And even if they have storys, probably very good storys, they shouldn't be the focus of the game table. Your characters are going to hear about other heroes and villians doing things. But hearing about them and being force to watch them is something different. But like Man in the Funny Hat said, no one wants to support a NPC or a favored NPC. No one wants to be led around by the DM's star who's apparently the only hope to save the multiverse when that could be Jeff's character, or all our characters? NPC's are out there with motives and lives and have to be protrayed realistically without stealing the show. Next, a DM star/pet should never be there to threaten and keep the players in line. Unless your all the characters are slaves to some drow or diety or etc. If a player gets out of line in power or roll playing, that's why they have house rules and house bans and talking. Or the tried and true, kill off than ban it. If a player is uncontrollable role-playing wise than when PC vs PC (combat or social) fights keep happening, the DM and or players are going to talk or boot him. The worst way to deal with a problem started is to keep him in line by making his character a slave. That's why a lot of campaigns or no evil or good only for a better way to deal with that. To my I love a rule heavy game. Yeah. I love rules. I've played in many role-playing games and although you can be more cinematic in combat for other games D&D is my favorate system. I don't get into arguements about how my character can't do that or yours can't do that or that NPC can or can't do that. Structure keeps the game flowing and out of game resentment down. The time it takes to look up something or debate over interpretation takes far less time than in free form role-playing or loose ruling games. But rules have nothing to do with getting the story out. Just like converting a book to the stage or screen. You can convert a story to D&D with just keep in mind that anything can happen because your dealing with improvisation. I'm focusing on basics right none and which is unfortunately causing me to step on toes with laters things like exp and loot. Focusing on the basics helps me focus on the lack of player experience as well. My only worry is that I might be hurting her creativity and story style. As per hurting her DMing style... I'm not sure she has one yet.... One of my old group buddies found and read this and said that he felt for me. And someone said this is an interesting thread and when I read it from a different prospective it is. I'll keep everyone updated. Thanks for the ideas hope for more and later days, Deviknyte
Etarnon 11-15-07, 12:33 PM	For certain, keep us posted, it seems like you have been successful, so far.
deviknyte 12-31-07, 08:29 AM	Things are going okay.... The group is taking well to having the rules more reasonable enforced (I'm not shoving them down everyone's throats). She still needs work but she's getting better. Right now I have her giving out reduced exp. That way the group can get used to the rules while I prep her for higher level tactics (spells and other FX's) and it's giving me time to work on a banned list to help the non-powergamers not feel overshadowed.
Etarnon 01-07-08, 09:38 PM	I detect the scent of Win.
Sereetha 01-08-08, 11:11 AM	You sound like you would be a hoot to play with. Congrates on working with your DM. I have recently switched to DMing 3.0 & 3.5. I am still working with some of the rules, my group when I first started bought me the rules compendium so I could have a quick reference. My players are all tenured players so the advice and help before taking on the task was appreciated. I am sure she appreciates the support. It takes a good player to help a DM rather than use her inexperience with the new systems as an advantage to get one over on the DM
deviknyte 01-09-08, 08:37 AM	Thanks and thanks, Sereetha. Everyones advice is helping me help her a lot better. Thanks to everyone and send more if you have it. And some of it I'll tuck away for my own use later. Good luck with 3.5 Sereetha. You'll love it and probably never want to turn back. If anything someone has posted helps you, all the better.
old_dm 01-09-08, 09:54 AM	Seems to me that most of you are missing out on the basic psychological mechanics at work here. The OP is a HE. His DM is a SHE. In the normal world perhaps this fact is meaningless, but in Geekdom this fact bears being pointed out. I say that if not for this fact there would be no "how to teach and not insult" thread, but instead there would be a "god my dude DM blows" thread.
deviknyte 01-10-08, 10:36 AM	Lol. Good points. But I hope that anyone who reads this isn't as gender bias as I am (although it be subconsciously). I think the "Dude my GM sucks thread," would only be with someone that I didn't concidered a friend. And for the curious thinking it, no, not my girlfriend/wife, crush, or anything along those lines. My girlfriends is joined her group when I did.
JerichoAlar 01-10-08, 03:03 PM	Seems to me that most of you are missing out on the basic psychological mechanics at work here. The OP is a HE. His DM is a SHE. In the normal world perhaps this fact is meaningless, but in Geekdom this fact bears being pointed out. I say that if not for this fact there would be no "how to teach and not insult" thread, but instead there would be a "god my dude DM blows" thread. I disagree. this is pretty much exactly what happens when a career DM ends up as a player under a new DM ( just not a competent one with a different style) it has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with a recognition that one can help by providing their expertise.
deviknyte 01-15-08, 08:08 AM	Yes. Agreed.
Etarnon 01-17-08, 01:29 AM	I wouldn't think it would matter, gender-wise. If he was gonna be that way, it would be: "Doodz, my DM sux th donk." I mean, we've seen it and seen it. With semi-apropos appends by the spelling nazis to follow.
I_roll_ones 01-17-08, 02:05 AM	Seems to me that most of you are missing out on the basic psychological mechanics at work here. The OP is a HE. His DM is a SHE. In the normal world perhaps this fact is meaningless, but in Geekdom this fact bears being pointed out. I say that if not for this fact there would be no "how to teach and not insult" thread, but instead there would be a "god my dude DM blows" thread. Or...We could assume that the OP is not a sexist piglet until he proves himself as such. Personally, he is willing to work with the DM, showing a large amount of maturity in solving the issue without making her feel uncomfortable or threaten her ego. I think that this is a fact that many(But not all!) men miss, in which they tend to come across as condescending rather then helpful. However, he doesn't even want to do that, and takes the time to make her feel secure and work with her, not against. I think that this behavior warrants an examination of his motives that reflects this maturity and insight. He has not done anything that suggests a sexist attitude. Sure, some men might, but what has the OP done to suggest this? I hate it when people think that all women think the same, and the same courtesy should be extended to men. Just because some suck does not mean that all do. Also, we're all geeks, but no one, male or female wants to DM all the time. That's probably more of a motivation, really.