Post/Author/DateTime	Post
raistlin_devreault 01-13-04, 05:20 PM	Here's my question... how to tell a Dm that your quitting his campaign, creating your own the same day, and half the crew(4) is coming with you?? Before you post anything about me being evil and all, here's why! 1- Been a Dm for 20 years he says, yet i have more knowledge of the rules and i only played for about a year. 2- He invent stupid, i mean really stupid rules that make no sens ex: A- Roll a knowledge Goblin language to know if you can read the runes.... I explain to him that you either know Goblin or you dont, he says : Well, how many points do you have in language goblin . :confused: B-You detect a symbol of death, make a will save..... That was on a succesfull spellcraft check.. c-His campaign is based for 9to14 lvl character, and he let us start at 14.. no challenge at all.. 3- He's not fair: His Gf is never the target of any monsters, and she always get the best "broken" magic items (ex: you find a quiver with 4 arrows of cone of cold, 20 charges each(10d6).. and she's a deepwood sniper :eek: ) 4- His story is always, always based on 2 character, his best friend and his Girlfriend, the others(we are 8), we are just the secondary character let's say, first one to die... The guy is not a bad person, it's just that he doesn't know poo poo about Rules.. He's a great storyteller, but that's about it! Me and some friends are just fed up with that and thinking of me creating a new games(since i DM before and play by the book). If it was one of my friends i would just ask him if i could be his helper, some kind of rules reference but i know how he his, probably too stuborn to say yes.. even if it mean loosing half the party(mage-cleric-rogue-huge fighter).... I need your help guys! If i really wanted i could just say : Your game was fun but you knowing nothing about the rules killed the game for us.... but it's a bit harsh.. PLease help me find ways to say it, or ways to make him change!!
adiaven 01-13-04, 05:48 PM	just tell him politely that you guys are leaving the party. No need to say you are starting a new campaign or go into why you are leaving. Just wish him good luck, and be off. Best if you just did it by email or phone, not at the time your group normally gets together.
gleep 01-13-04, 08:08 PM	A) tell him in as far advance of the game as you can. Don't leave him hanging. B) Be honest. Be direct. Be polite. Just like you'd want your players to be if they decided to leave your game. C) Don't assume anything about him without proof. You never know... he may feel pressured to give his best friend and girlfriend preferential treatment. He may be more than happy to let someone else DM so he can play himself (and be relieved of the pressure above if it exists). 3rd edition is a vastly different game than the AD&D of 20 years ago. There's quite a bit about it that really doesn't make a lot of sense. But then, there's a lot of the old game that doesn't make much sense by today's standards. :) Of course, it's always possible he's an immature bint and my advice is wasted. Roll with it, don't get mad at him, and just get on with life. And the game. :D --gleep
Eldren 01-13-04, 08:32 PM	I hate to disagree with Adiaven here, but DO NOT quit the group over e-mail or via telephone! That's just lame. Be a man (or a woman, if you're female) and say it to his face. You can be as omissive as you think is necessary to spare his feelings (i.e., you can tell him that you're leaving the group, but you don't have to tell him that you're starting another group), but if he's your friend, he deserves for you to tell this to his face. Anything less is cowardly. I recommend telling him this at the close of the last session, a week before you're going to start your new group. It doesn't sound like all of your group is leaving him, just the majority, so he'll still have a campaign (although it might go on hold for a couple of weeks), he'll just need to find some new players to fill in the empty slots. Leave the other players to tell him, on their own, that they're leaving, but appeal to their higher instincts and encourage them to be up front and honest with him. "Up front and honest" doesn't have to mean "mean and nasty". The truth is the truth; it isn't always easy to take, but often results in better outcomes in the long run. I still recommend, personally, not telling him that you're starting your own group with the majority of his players. That's just being petty, and serves no purpose other than hurting his feelings, which shouldn't be your goal here. Just tell the rest of the group, once you've all left the Dungeon Master's house (ideally tell them by telephone or through e-mail; you never can tell when someone can hear you talking as you're walking away from their home; I've had that one bite me in the ass more than once...), what time you're all to gather at your new playing location, and go from there. The old Dungeon Master knows not to expect you the following session, and in the interim, will probably learn not to expect the other players as well. Hopefully they'll show some discretion and not reveal to him that they're joining a new group that you're forming. It seems dirty, double-dealing and backhanded, but it really isn't. A lie of omission is still a lie, but in this case, I think most people would be comfortable with the moral ramifications of this manner of "white lie". Try to be kind, respectful of him and his girlfriend (and whoever else is choosing to stay with him), and just leave peaceably. Collect any gaming books that are yours at his place before you leave, and encourage those who are going to tell the Dungeon Master about their departure at a later date to do the same not too long after they notify him. Rifts tend to form amongst friends when they cease gaming with each other, and it takes time for those rifts to heal. They more often than not do heal, but it still takes time, and one thing that you shouldn't do during that time is hang around each other. Give each other some space. But whilst giving space, you can obviously realize that you wouldn't be able to stop by and pick up gaming materials you left behind, so it's better to do an inventory of your gaming collection, find out which pieces are at his place, and acquire them before the split. I hope it goes well for you.
Mitchell 01-14-04, 02:43 AM	I tend to believe that honesty is the best policy. Tell him, tell the others to tell him, and let him know that you are planning on starting a campaign of your own with the others. He will still have four people, plenty to play with, and if he gets overly upset at this, then how much more upset would he be if he finds out later? Maybe he'll take it well, and can set up heroic deaths for your pc's, at least those that he doesn't want to keep around as npc's. If he doesn't take it well, well, he'll get over it unless his life priorities are screwed up.
Tenzhi 01-14-04, 02:58 AM	He's a great storyteller? Personally, I'd rather have a GM who created a great story than a GM who was a stickler for the rules. Without a great story you may as well be playing Monopoly, but without the rules you're still roleplaying. In any case, I'd tell him why I was leaving his group and I might even invite him to play with the new group. I'd be thrilled if one of my players would run something and I could play for a change.
raistlin_devreault 01-14-04, 07:51 AM	Wow! im surprised how many replies i got! thanks guys & girlz... To answer you question Tenzhi, the guy like i said is a great storyteller, but that's it.... Trust me, his misunderstanding of the rules is really killing it for us. What i was planning on doing is to go over at his house a couple of days before the game and ask him if we could delegate someone in the party to be the rules Enforcer, someone that has true knowledge in 3.0 rules. So when a skill check need to be made or special attack movement in combat, "The Rules enforcer" could give the right rules for that. Right now we have built our character for 3.0 game but most of our skills are useless cause he uses some real rules.... Hopefully, all will work out, if not, well i wont feel bad about leaving... with half the party..
Gothic_Demon 01-14-04, 07:59 AM	I agree with the option for a Rules Lawyer to sit at the table, but have you thought to speak to your DM and say "I understand you've been playing for years under the old systems, but this is 3.0, and works very differently. Because the rules aren't being adhered to properly it's making it difficult for us to play properly. Can we sit down and go over the rules system properly so we all understand it?" You don't place the blame on him but he should quickly catch on to the fact that he doesn't know the rules properly, and hopefully make some effort to learn. I don't think you should lose such a good storyteller over the rules unless you absolutely have to. A friend of mine walked out of a game he'd only played for three weeks recently, because the DM had no concept of the rules at all. Helmets protect a character from all criticals, asking players whether they had taken proficiencies with all the weaposn they were carrying. A DM doesn't need to know every rule, but he does need to know the basics and understand them.
Nei 01-14-04, 01:06 PM	You seem to have quite a large playgroup. You could tell your DM that you and the others feel that your group is too big (people hardly get a chance too shine, combat with so many characters is messy, etc.) and that you're splitting because of that. That way you can leave without hurting his feelings (I hope...). Nei
Crossover-Chronicler 01-14-04, 02:05 PM	"I'm leaving you. I'm taking the kids, the car, the dog, and half the good cheese." :P I all seriousness, I think the simplest tactic is to just tell the guy you're leaving the game. And if he asks for reasons, tell him. Don't "soften the blow," but don't be aggressive either. And, if at all possible, find a way to pull your characters from the game non-disruptively.
Galahad the Pure 01-14-04, 02:26 PM	I can tell you from experience how I dealt with a VERY similar situation. It's similar in that my DM didn't know the rules so well, but the difference was he wasn't that great of a storyteller. Anyway, I digress. I'd say his biggest flaw was his inability to keep things moving. We had a group with 8 players (which didn't really appeal to me) and the adventures were very slow. I know, you'll all say that 8 players are going to make things slow, but I've played in large groups before, and even for a large group, he ran slow. The last night I played in that campaign, we were supposed to gather at 7 at night, and we were waiting for him to get his act together until 9 at which point I decided to walk. I basically said, "Look, I'm sorry, but you're taking too long, and there are too many people. I'm lightening your workload by leaving too. See ya." A week later, I DID start a new campaign, stealing 2 players from his campaign, and I never told him. I don't really agree about the lie of omission business. It's your campaign, and you're entitled to tell only the people you want to know about it. Since your ex-DM is not going to be a part of this new campaign, he doesn't need to know anything about it, since it's really none of his business. If the other players leave his campaign for yours, that's their problem and not yours, and hopefully he'll take that as an indicator that his skills need improving.
Bonemage 01-14-04, 09:08 PM	I would advise against the rules lawyer thing that could get really annoying for all involved especially the DM. I know as a DM I went with the flow of story telling but this DM seems to delight in making new rules and things overly complex.... In any case if you really do want to save the group sit down and talk with him about the problems in the campaign and be fairly frank although don't go as far as accusing him of favoring other players... that seems petty and if it is true he likly thinks he has a good in gamer reason for doing so. In short tell him what you think is wrong and talk to him about how to make it better if you want to stay. If your heart is set on leaving just be honest and tell him with as much notice as possible and perhaps all of you telling him at once could work better. I can see if you all quit over a few days and somehow he finds out you are all gaming together he thinks there was some sort of "conspiracy" so I think better for the long term just to be honest up front and do what is going to be more fun for you and the other players.
Edymnion 01-14-04, 09:54 PM	Yeah, I'd try going with the Rules DM first before I split off completely. If your DM is a great storyteller, but a lousy rules man, present him with the option of you being the "Combat DM". He gets to tell all the story, but when it comes to crunchy rules, you're in control. You run combats, you run skill checks, you run traps, whole nine yards. This frees him up to focus solely on his story (which if he's as bad at the rules as you say, he'll probably appreciate). Will probably mean you would have to give up playing a character as you'll know about encounters and such ahead of time, but if you were going to go DM anyway, its not much of a loss. I've been in a group where this worked quite well. Story DM came up with what he wanted to happen, and wrote out the sort of encounters and traps he wanted, and handed the description over to the Combat DM. Combat DM then worked out the exact monsters to include, set up the whiteboard, etc. It also allowed the players to have a little side discussion with the Combat DM about how something would work without having to interrupt the Story DM (well, not enough to make him lose his train of thought, anyway). This lets you all get the best of both worlds, a good storyteller and someone who knows the rules backwards and forwards. It also means that YOU will get Veto power over what Story DM hands out, and you can have the girlfriend and best friend take their fair share of licks.
raistlin_devreault 01-15-04, 11:55 AM	Thank you all again for your opinions.. Im going over there tonight to grab my stuff and bring the bad news. I think and re-think about it and have decided it will be better to just quit. I guess im just sick of how he plays the game, and i want out. Of course im not the only one feeling this way, so might as well create our own game, with everything by the book... Here a few other example of how bad he is.. A - In combat Vs "kiraansali", in City of spider queen.. she pulls a hand from her pouch(a magic hand casting 5 spells per round).. First ray hit's me : destruction dc25 or something Second ray: touch of death dc 26 or watever.. All rays(5) are like that except one, cast on his Gf, he said she made her save with 17.... I mean cmon... B- Combat vs a Chimera: Me: I cast Prismatic spray, roll 1d8 DM: 8 Me: good, 2 rays.. roll again twice.. Dm: 3 and 4 Me: ok first one is electric rays, roll reflex save Dm: 26 Me: dammit right on it.. half damage, 40hp Me: roll another, poison fortitude save.. Dm: oo look 26 again.. 10+16 = 26 right? Me: ggrrrrrrrrrrr.... (knowing fully well that Chimera only has 9 of base fortitude) All kinds of thing like that.... that's enough for me! im gone! see ya! chow ming!
raistlin_devreault 01-16-04, 08:26 AM	OK so it's done! I went with the ommision part but i didn't lie.. i just didn't elaborate on what was my reason. example. Me and other Pc(crazy elf Witch) went over to his house to get stuff. Dm: hey, last game was cool right? very cool.. CEW: (are you crazy!! worst game ever).. Yes yes.... well i hate to say that but im done with the game ...I won't be playing anymore... DM: aaww for real? why CEW: Well, i want to do something else.. make new plans... DM: OK.. we are still 6 players so that's good. Me: well.. not really.. im quitting too.. Dm: Why? Me: Well... a friend of mine is starting a game and i dont have time to play 2 a week(lie) and his game is lvl 1 pc with only 3 other guy.. i dont really like game with too many pc's...... Dm: Is this what you want? start at lvl1? Me: well yes... but (YOU DONT KNOW SKWAT ABOUT RULES).. i dont like when there's too much PC's.. yes.. that's right.. Dm: Well ok.. ummm.. i had other player on hold anyway so.. it's not that bad(lie, lie! he's a bad lier).... So we left.. At this point we could see he was sad... but hey! So techniquely we didn't lie, CEW told him he wanted to do something else(play my game) and I told him i was starting a new game, i just forgot to tell him i was the DM.. o well... I think what's really worst about loosing us two, was the fact that by loosing CEW, he also lost his GF, and with me, he lost my brother-in-law.... Thank you Guys & girlz about the advice, i feel much better now..
PSchirf 01-16-04, 11:09 AM	A DM who is a good storyteller and who looks for feedback from his players (which you indicate he does) isn't going to have a problem finding players who enjoy his stye of play. I have to say that I don't, from your posts, see anything wrong with the DM. In fact, I'd love to play in a game where the DM is more into the story than into the rules. If a good session (meaning everyone has fun) can be run without ever using a single "rule" from the books then that's great. The rules are only there to help the storyline make sense, not the other way around.
raistlin_devreault 01-16-04, 11:16 AM	Your right PSchirf, but in this case, it doesn't. How can you play a game or plan anything if you can't rely on the rules? How can you play a game when some players are treated differently from others, how can you play a game with a DM that ask you to roll a knowledge language goblin?? You can't... as for "a good storyteller and who looks for feedback from his players ", this isn't true. When we tell him that something is wrong or not true.. he blames it on 2nd ed. He may change some things, but a session or two after, he forget. A D&D game needs 2 things, which needs to be in perfect balance: Story & Rules.. Story may be "good" but if the rules doesn't make any sens, there's no fun...
PSchirf 01-16-04, 12:27 PM	> How can you play a game or plan anything if you can't rely on the rules? Some players don't need rules to have fun playing. Others do. I've run games for many people who have no clue that there ARE rules. I've run games for people who have them memorized. Both can have fun if they remind themselves that the "rules" are not really rules... they are there as guidelines, nothing more. > How can you play a game when some players are treated differently from others This is the one issue that I can see as a problem. Talking to him about THIS issue makes sense. > how can you play a game with a DM that ask you to roll a knowledge language goblin?? What was wrong with rolling to see if your understanding of Goblin was sufficient to read some obscure goblin runes? That's a perfect example of how a DM should handle something. Your repeated claim that this was an issue makes me think the DM isn't the one with a problem.
Twisted Puppy 01-16-04, 12:56 PM	Originally posted by PSchirf If a good session (meaning everyone has fun) can be run without ever using a single "rule" from the books then that's great. The rules are only there to help the storyline make sense, not the other way around. I wholeheartedly agree; the rules are there to support the storyline, not the other way around!!:bow: However, it does certainly draw the ire of rules-lawyers when you choose to disallow certain rules that are stated as optional, or if you change a rule for storyline purposes. Nevermind if this ruling has ZERO effect on the PCs - doesn't disadvantage them, and will actually never be applicable to the characters. (IMC I ruled that wounds over a year old that had healed on their own, such as amputated limbs, blinded in one eye, etc. - were not affected by heal or regenerate. It was a storyline device, and since none of the characters had major injuries like that to start with, it didn't affect them personally. However, our resident rules-lawyer questioned my right to make that decision. He is no longer part of the group, and there are far fewer arguments during sessions.) Raistlin, congratulations on handling the situation without having it turn into an ugly scene. He may have seen through what you told him, but kudos for doing the best you could to spare his feelings. Who knows, maybe he'll decide he needs a better grasp on the rules to keep it from happening again.
raistlin_devreault 01-16-04, 01:23 PM	Anyway, i don't even know why i disagree with you PSchirf, who knows, i may be wrong.. me and all the freaking group!! Anyway, it's not my problem anymore...
Big Dawg 01-16-04, 01:45 PM	Here's my question... how to tell a Dm that your quitting his campaign, creating your own the same day, and half the crew(4) is coming with you?? Be a man and tell him! If he gives you lip then smack that mouthpiece back into place. :smirk: really just tell him! what are you afriad of? he is gonna know anyway when everyone leaves. better to just tell him. maybe he'll change his ways and you all can get along in a new game where he doesn't DM. if he doesn't then you still have your new game.
Mister Mayhem 01-16-04, 01:54 PM	Ignore the critics - the only justification you need for walking out of a game and taking players with you is that you and they were not having fun. Doesn't matter whose fault it is, even if its your own, if you are not having fun, there is no reason to stay. To be honest, I think both you and he will benefit. 10 players is simply too many for an ordinary game of D&D. Not saying it can't be done, but 4 players is a much more sensible number. Good luck with your new game, and if this is your first time DMing don't by shy in coming to the boards for advice. There are some incredibly experienced DMs on these boards who are more than happy to share their accumulated wisdom. But learn one lesson from your experience - the object of the game, whether you are player or DM, is to have fun, and if you want people to keep playing with you, the fun you have should never be at the expence of somebody elses chance to enjoy themselves.
Crossover-Chronicler 01-16-04, 11:25 PM	Originally posted by PSchirf [quote]> how can you play a game with a DM that ask you to roll a knowledge language goblin?? What was wrong with rolling to see if your understanding of Goblin was sufficient to read some obscure goblin runes? That's a perfect example of how a DM should handle something. Your repeated claim that this was an issue makes me think the DM isn't the one with a problem. I don't buy it. First, there's r_d's original comment: Originally posted by raistlin_devreault A- Roll a knowledge Goblin language to know if you can read the runes.... I explain to him that you either know Goblin or you dont, he says : Well, how many points do you have in language goblin . :confused: It is apparent here that the DM does not know what he is talking about. The maximum number of ranks any character can have in a language is 2 ranks (really it's 1, but it's usually bought cross-class). You can't "train up" your knowledge of the language. So the DM was demonstrating his ignorance of the rules by asking a question for which there is only one allowable answer (two, if you count "none" -- with racial languages it is possible to be fluent in the language and have no skill ranks invested, after all), and again by demanding that the player roll a skill into which one cannot put ranks instead of the skill actually intended for that purpose. Really, this should have been a "Decipher Script" check. That would have been completely valid, and is in fact the purpose of that skill. But the DM instead ignored that skill and insisted that the player roll the one of two skills ("Speak Language" and "Literacy") that you never roll. Had the player been informed that he was expected to have multiple ranks in each language during character creation, the complaint might not be quite as valid (though I'd still gripe).