Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Anoyomus 08-27-06, 11:55 AM	Hopefully I can get both player and DM's opinions on this. A player from my game is running a game. However he does a lot of railroading (quotes are actual quotes) " If you had done this then the town would have been destroyed this way and if you had done this it would have been destroyed this way...." It always gets destroyed. " Its your fault you shouldn't have picked up that item that was on that corpse because that was what destroyed the town." Does a load of "NPCs on parade" Every single NPC that you meet is a least 10 levels higher then the party, " So you can't kill them ". Far-fetched "The king has an army of 1000+ Level 17 characters " " when you reach level 20 the army entire army will be level 38 to keep you in line" "All the bandits (several hundred) are werewolves" "Vampires are your friends but their weakness are reduced" Incidently you have to go save the world. And you're level one. "Oh all the high level NPCs are too busy to do it so off you go" "Heres the broken artifact though if its gets fixed you automatically lose it cause I can't have the players having it" Ok the above is more of a rant then I'd like but unfortunetly its all true. Now the person themselves is an ok guy but how do you actually go about telling them that their game sucks? He has a fear of PC power and does not actually belive that he is heavily railroading. The other current players (two) are pushovers and just follow the crowd. Other new players are joining but I don't want their first DnD game to be this. So other then being honest (without being too honest) and calm about it what actually can you say to the guy.
Obscurum101 08-27-06, 12:02 PM	Consult him mano 'e' mano and tell him that he is a bad dm, tell him the stuff you've yold us and see if it improves if not, Kill him in his sleep find a new dm
Anoyomus 08-27-06, 12:06 PM	Actually I'm the previous DM of this group so finding a new DM is very very easy and requires only the use of a mirror. The trouble is he really wants to DM and he's only run a few games so there is hope for improvement. Anyway anyone else got any nice ways of putting it?
Stormbrand 08-27-06, 12:19 PM	How about pointing out that PCs hate feeling powerless. If everyone grossly overpowers the PCs then there is little they can do and not much point in playing if none of their decisions matter. Tell him you have DM'd longer than he has and you think it would be best for you to DM when the new players first join up - he can DM later. Approach him from the stand-point of a more experienced DM giving pointers to help him out because he's new to it. Find a few good points about his DMing if you can to mention so it doesn't feel like criticism when you point out his flaws. If he has a problem with that then he is a :censored:
Anoyomus 08-27-06, 12:32 PM	How about pointing out that PCs hate feeling powerless. If everyone grossly overpowers the PCs then there is little they can do and not much point in playing if none of their decisions matter. Tell him you have DM'd longer than he has and you think it would be best for you to DM when the new players first join up - he can DM later. Approach him from the stand-point of a more experienced DM giving pointers to help him out because he's new to it. Find a few good points about his DMing if you can to mention so it doesn't feel like criticism when you point out his flaws. If he has a problem with that then he is a :censored: I'm certain he won't be an ass about it but I'm trying not to hurt him. Still the rest is good advice.
danielinthewolvesden 08-27-06, 01:22 PM	So other then being honest (without being too honest) and calm about it what actually can you say to the guy. You sit down, be calm and honest with him and discuss the situation like rational adults. (I think I have given this same advice about a zillion times now) *WHY* not be "honest and calm about it"?:confused:
Anoyomus 08-27-06, 01:44 PM	You sit down, be calm and honest with him and discuss the situation like rational adults. (I think I have given this same advice about a zillion times now) *WHY* not be "honest and calm about it"?:confused: Actually I stated that other then being honest (not too honest) and calm what else could I do. Mainly writing on this thread is helping me form the method by which I will talk to him about it.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-27-06, 01:46 PM	*WHY* not be "honest and calm about it"?:confused: I think the OP gets that part, but has a low Diplomacy mod and isn't sure how to phrase what he wants to convey. I think you should just be honest and don't worry about hurting his feelings (that's not to say be unnecessarily brutal, but give it to him straight). If this new DM is the type that would get offended at an honest straightforward discussion of his talent or lack thereof in a given field, he needs to be offended a bit - good way to encourage him to thicken his skin via negative reinforcement. Furthermore, the alternative of stringing him along making him think he's doing well when he isn't, by being too nice and too hesitant to point out problems, will just lead to bigger disappointment when you must eventually tell him the truth.
Sinner6 08-29-06, 03:47 PM	I had a DM (lets call him T) just like that, it was a Star Wars game. The players conspired against him. :D The group was playing two games with two DMs, same people in both. So everyone "forgot" their characters for the Star Wars game and "just happened to have" their characters for the M's D&D game. After a few weeks of only playing the M's D&D campaign T cancelled his Star Wars campaign. How is this for a quote? "Ok you guys are in a bar and then you realize something is not right. The guy you just did you last job for a rodian I think or something looks weird. A whole bunch people just turned into stormtroopers and stuff, including the rodian guy. What do you do?" We duck under a table for cover. "A whole bunch of rebel solders n stuff come in and capture the stormtroopers."
KnaveofClubs 08-29-06, 03:53 PM	*Real Response* Me: "Dude...You suck" Other Guy: "Why" Me: "Have you even played D&D?" Other Guy: "Well sorta, I played this one game that--" Me: "You suck" I never really even like the guy anyways so it worked out.
Wulfgar 08-29-06, 06:02 PM	Poison his Doritos and FrescaJust tell him he needs to stop DMing.
Drodain 08-29-06, 06:12 PM	We have a DM who was like this. His brother was more blunt about it because well they're brothers. I just told him, "Dude, really these adventurers aren't that great, <interesting point> was pretty cool, and it looked like it was gonna be awesome, then you got bored and just killed us or stopped trying. So for now just work on DMing, I'll be happy to try it again next time, just wait a few times and see if you dont notice things." Although the next time was also quite bad and I told him again. He fails to see how bad he is so we just don't really let him. If he ever offers to DM I might have to step up to avoid everyone else suffering, lol. You might have to do the same.
KyussWren 08-29-06, 06:43 PM	Ask him what the five fingers said to the face. Then slap him.
DarkNick 08-29-06, 07:00 PM	I think being a good DM is something you learn. There are very few people that are naturaly excellent right from the start. I started DMing in a very similar way and if I was not given the chance to grow I would not be a succesfull DM now. The worst thing you could do is just tell him he is crap. I rekon be constructive. Don't try to fix everything at once. Start with the worst thing - probably the railroading. First tell him what you like about his games "hey dude you doing a good job with the stories etc...", then tell him what you would like and sympathise with him. Tell him you have the same trouble. " The hard part about being a DM is the players can often do something unexpected. I found it really hard to let go of my story at first, but if you an it makes for a better game. It would be great if you could give us some more choice and not make everyone else so much more powerful than we are because we want to be heroes. We are not playing against you, we are just playing in your world, and it is not much fun playing in a world where everyone is far tougher than you are. How about you let me run a session/scene just like you do so you can see what it is like and where things could improve because I think you have a lot of potential to be a great DM" (redo one of his own scenes)
Archangel62 08-29-06, 07:55 PM	Explain it to him like this, "Your new rules and setup make it sound like you don't trust us, don't trust our abilities to roleplay, and are very afraid of your story not working out. You don't need to put us into a straightjacket to make things work...look I've DMed before, maybe you might want some help." If you can handle it offer to sit out a few games and sorta coach him. That can do wonders because it will let him see where problems are and also if he and the group enjoyed your games he might also want to figure out how to make his games as fun for the group.
STAT 08-29-06, 08:30 PM	I'll agree with approaching him and being honest but make sure you bring a corresponding solution for each problem. Just make sure that you get it across that you're not out to ruin his campaign but have a genuine intrest in improving it. Point out things that are making the campaign less fun and give him some pointers that you've picked up from dm'ing. If he responds positively cool, if not, well then you start considering other people's less polite reccomendations.
Archmage_Vall 08-29-06, 08:50 PM	*Rolls Diplomacy* "You know, Mr. DM, the other players and I were thinking of a few things you could change about your game to make it more fun." " :eek: ....like what?" "Well, D&D PCs are usually among the best their races have to offer in terms of heroism, and are generally assumed to be larger-than-life characters that the commonfolk tell each other tall tales about." "right, so.....?" "We feel like you're holding the PCs back away from that role. They are outshined by (high-level NPCs), and not allowed any real heroics." "What do you mean? Last session... (details)" "Yeah, but... (details)" and so on. It helps if the other players are present and agree with you. If you get him to ease up a bit, and relax his deathgrip on teh pwower, then whatever you do, don't come back with super uber powergamed monstrosities for PCs, or you'll just validate his fears of giving players, and their characters, freedom. Or, if the calm, adult approach doesn't work, then consider getting a bass drum with "You Suck!" written on it, and pound on it whenever he tries to speak. Also, get a megaphone and heckle him while he tries to DM crappily. Of course, you could find a different DM, or DM yourself, but what fun would that be?
Voran 08-30-06, 05:47 AM	Yeah honestly the best thing I can think of is "Suck it up and just tell them you're not having fun." Be specific, be useful in your criticism and offer advice as needed.
2nd Ed Paladin 08-30-06, 01:05 PM	There is a section at the beginging of the DMG that tlaks about how to structure adventures while avoiding railroading, deus ex machina and uber-NPCs. Say something like " We enjoyed the last session but here's a few tips I picked up when I was DMing... Try reading this section of the DMG too." Hope it helps
bubba boi 08-30-06, 10:54 PM	i first started DMing that time i first started playing. My friends had been playing for a year, i joined in, wanted to start a new game with me in it, so i asked to start Dm'ing, they thought that was fine, so i did. They tell me when i suck, and i change things, best way to learn is through your mistakes.
Aeromus 08-30-06, 10:57 PM	"Dude you're a horrible Dm, HORRIBLE!"
TheMeanOne 08-31-06, 12:05 AM	I'm learning to DM right now by running a solo campign with my current DM. She is a really good DM, I really like her style. Because it's just the two of us and because I'm not afraid to ask her for help I feel like I'm learning a lot. Talk to them about the problems you've noticed with the game and offer to help them during the game. Sit beside him, offer to look things up to save time if he seems a bit lost and just be supportive. It'll probably make him feel more comfortable, and that will probably let him relinquish some of the control.
lousywithnames 08-31-06, 03:07 AM	I think being a good DM is something you learn. There are very few people that are naturaly excellent right from the start. I started DMing in a very similar way and if I was not given the chance to grow I would not be a succesfull DM now. :rofl: Flashbacks to my first DMing session. Oh god I was bad. "You search the scene-dressing rubble and find a magical mace +1". (wipes tear from eye) Ahem, anyway. To the original poster. You know this guy, I don't. I can only assume that you have a better idea of what to say to him. Try to include some positives, where appropriate. If you can start off with that it's usually a good idea. Of course I'd probably start, "You know how much it sucks in Oblivion that the guards are always ten levels higher than you? Yeah, well Bethesda called, they want their campaign setting back". But maybe you should be a tad more tactful. He's your friend, you should know how to talk to him better than me.
MrPiskie 08-31-06, 10:17 PM	I agree that some honest, polite, constructive criticism is probably in order. On the other hand.... One of the first times I DMed, I was really taught a lesson. I don't think I was even a teenager yet, and I started a casual solo campaign where the player was running some kind of halfling. The first (and only) session of the campaign went something like this: Me: "Okay, you're frolicking in the woods when you find the entrance to a dungeon. What do you do?" Player: "I'm going back to town." Me: ":eek: WHAT?!?!" Player: "I'm not going down some random hole." Me: "But... but..." Player: "You can't just force me to do things." I was more than a little angry, but you can bet that since then I've been triply careful to craft good plot hooks. I've DMed for well over a decade since then, and I can truthfully say that I've progressed from a truly lousy DM to a mediocre one. :king:
theotherdraxen 08-31-06, 11:59 PM	I've read alot of serious bad-DM bashing. Am I wrong in assuming that most of these people are players who have yet to experience the extreme difficulty in DMing? I know how frustrating it is to have a bad DM, but you have no idea how hard it is to be a DM in the first place. Don't just shut him down. Be nice, and constructive. If you can tolerate it, maybe allow him to DM a little longer, and see if he improves. Maybe he'll improve over time. At the same time, don't just let things continue. When I first started DMing, most of my players pretended they were having fun, expecting me to use my telepathy to find out that they were miserable. Eventually, they all left, with little explantion as to why. Even if the games have to stop, at least let him know why and how he can improve. Try recommending DMing for Dummies (in a non-offensive fashion). After 3 failed attempts at DMing, I'm gonna get it myself.
Sinner6 09-04-06, 10:27 PM	I've read alot of serious bad-DM bashing. Am I wrong in assuming that most of these people are players who have yet to experience the extreme difficulty in DMing? I know how frustrating it is to have a bad DM, but you have no idea how hard it is to be a DM in the first place. You are wrong in assuming I never DMed. Being a DM is about give and take not just writing a story. Player liked my campaigns because they felt like I really understood where they wanted to take their charaters. In my experiances and from what I have read on the board what happens is a lot of DM just write a short story and put the PCs in their and expect the players to just go along. Don't just shut him down. Be nice, and constructive. If you can tolerate it, maybe allow him to DM a little longer, and see if he improves. Maybe he'll improve over time. Maybe not; not everyone is ment to DM. Given you believe that being a DM is extremely difficult it is not very hard to imagine he is just a wash out. At the same time, don't just let things continue. When I first started DMing, most of my players pretended they were having fun, expecting me to use my telepathy to find out that they were miserable. Them assuming you have telepathy is a human trait not just a player trait. Even if the games have to stop, at least let him know why and how he can improve. Try recommending DMing for Dummies (in a non-offensive fashion). After 3 failed attempts at DMing, I'm gonna get it myself. It does sound like they really should stop. Perhaps when the campaing ends it could explained that fun includes a sense of self control ( that is what is appealing about video games you feel like your actions change the world or at least some small part of it ) DMing for Dummies ( or something like it) sounds like a good thing for everyone who even thinks of DMing, but have fun dropping that hint in a non-offensive fashion.
MaximumPain 09-04-06, 10:45 PM	To hear some of the responses it sounds like its soo easy to be a good DM. Well its not it takes a lot of work. The best thing you can do IMHO is to help him with what you think is wrong and get a consensus from your other players especially the other DM. You aren’t going to fix all of the problems in one shot. I have been running and playing in various types of role-playing games for over25 years ( and we had to walk 30 hexes through the snow up hill both ways to get to the dungeon). Over the years my skills have improved but it didn’t happen over night and I still make some mistakes. So give this guy a break and try to help him learn to be a better DM.
theotherdraxen 09-04-06, 11:42 PM	The problem with you, Sinner6, is that you sound like you're a natural DM. The rest of us don't have your inheirent skill at DMing, and we have to learn it. Good DMs don't grow on trees, ya know.
SnowSage 09-05-06, 02:55 AM	1: I'm on Sinner6's side here...Not everyone is cut out to be a DM, heck, I'm still struggling to be a better DM, and I've been giving it my all since only weeks after I first picked up a book, and my friends tell me that I do well considering the materials I work with... then again, they may be lying like this person is to his DM, in which case, I wish they would tell me, using the rules I list under #2 so I can get better or go back to being a player and letting everyone enjoy themselves. 2: Be brutal with him. He has to hear it. A lot of DMs, myself included, actively search for it, and then explain to our players why we do the things we do, but try to take their oppinions into account when preparing the rest of the game. Encourage him to ask people how they are enjoying the game after each meeting, and encourage the others to be brutally honest. Worst that happens is he over-compensates and get's a little frustrated, but hey, that's how you get it right.
Man in the Funny Hat 09-05-06, 12:01 PM	Being new to DMing makes it a tough gig. There is SO much to do and so little real understanding of how to go about it all. The best way to learn it though IS to just DO it and damm the torpedoes. Unfortunately this means that players under new DM's WILL suffer through that learning process. Your problem is really not how to tell him he's a BAD DM. Your problem is finding the best ways to tell him how to be a BETTER DM. The former is a negative approach. The latter is the much superior positive approach. Don't tell him that he's railroading, arbitrary, and restrictive and to stop doing that. Give him options instead. Tell him that players always enjoy it when they ALWAYS have options in where to go, what to do, and HOW to do it; they enjoy being allowed to have their characters REALLY good at what they do, and that you attract more flies with honey than vinegar (so while it's best for new DM's to stick to the Core Rules for at least their first campaign or three it's better to LET the game get out of control than to prevent it from ever hitting its stride). And of course, it simply has to be stated directly: D&D is NOT about NPC's. It's NOT about the campaign world. IT IS ALWAYS ABOUT THE PC'S AND THEIR EXPLOITS. THE REST OF THE GAME EXISTS SOLELY TO SUPPORT THAT - NOT TO RESTRAIN THAT.
was_fired 09-05-06, 03:31 PM	I have to agree with sinner not everyone is cut out to DM. Am I a naturally good DM? Nope, but that doesn't stop me from running games and having my players enjoy them. A DMs job is four fold: 1. Make the players feel their characters have power. 2. Make an interesting story. 3. Make an interesting world. 4. Run a fun game and keep the game from falling apart, but this is everyones job. As a DM I am great with the rules which is useful. My ability to make a world and an interesting story are subpar at best. My players however always have a sense that they effect the face of the world, and they like that. The combats are challenging enough to keep them interested as well so I have a steady player base. This year I'm trying to sure up my weak storytelling abilities by running a more RP intensive campaign. Will it work? Lord if I know it's one of my weak points as a DM, but I want to improve it and a trial by fire is the best way to learn to DM in my experiance.
Ut-Napishtim 09-05-06, 04:26 PM	There is a section at the beginging of the DMG that tlaks about how to structure adventures while avoiding railroading, deus ex machina and uber-NPCs. Yeah, there's also a section on what level NPCs there are in assorted population centers of varying sizes. I think you should go through the DMG and mark the sections for everything he's doing wrong, and then bring them to his attention. Sounds like the dude really needs to actually read the DMG, but maybe if you steer him towards a few passages he'll do the rest on his own. :twocents:
Sinner6 09-05-06, 10:09 PM	D&D is NOT about NPC's. It's NOT about the campaign world. IT IS ALWAYS ABOUT THE PC'S AND THEIR EXPLOITS. THE REST OF THE GAME EXISTS SOLELY TO SUPPORT THAT - NOT TO RESTRAIN THAT. That is my philosophy. The PCs are the stars, treat them as such. That doesn't mean the PCs don't have bad times but that the bad times they have they can dig their way out of in some way. Remember players help tell the story, giving a vile necromancer a chance at redemtion or a paladin a chance for a fall can be lots of fun. One time I had my players argueing about the ethics of POWs. They were doing some recon at an enemy ( but still good ) fort and had gotten the drop on a sleeping guard. Some players wanted to kill him, some said tie him up. That was really good roleplaying and I didn't have to say a word for 15 minutes. Another thing that I once did that was good fun was a player getting into a rules lawyer rant, I said "Shut Up!, This is a dramatic moment, the rules don't count!" Also while some people will never be a good DM others just need a kick start. My first few adventures/campaings were not very good, and virtually no advice I got from any DMs seemed to do any good at all. Which was sad I was decent at writing short stories, 2-5 pages. Then a DM friend gave me an adventure plus some campaign ideas that he wasn't going to have time to run because of work. I asked him what was with all the white space on the sheets. He said oh the charaters fill those parts in. And it clicked, I never asked for DMing advice again. After 3 failed campaigns (and one was a real disaster), boom! my fourth was a HUGE success. 6 months later once the campaign drew to a close I had too many people asking to be in my next set of adventures. So in summary 1) Some people will NEVER be a good DM. 2) DMing usually requires at least a little trial and error. 3) Sometimes a mentor/co-DM can kickstart a person's DMing or maybe the ONLY way it will "click". If this is the DMs first campaign be nice but make sure he understands he needs help, alot of help.
stevetom 09-06-06, 12:33 AM	this is great advice to be sure. i recently started DMing, and i fear i have some of those nasty tendencies to railroad and have invulnerable NPCs its always one thing to play as a PC; only worrying about yourself and your party. but when you start playing god...well all i have to say is, it's a rough start.
theotherdraxen 09-06-06, 04:10 PM	Shut Up!, This is a dramatic moment, the rules don't count! :clap: There's my new signature. Thanks, Sinner6. But I still think that you shouldn't have him give up hope. The only kind of person that will NEVER be a good DM is one that will not change. Everyone else has got a shot.
fatchuck 09-10-06, 01:30 AM	Then a DM friend gave me an adventure plus some campaign ideas that he wasn't going to have time to run because of work. I asked him what was with all the white space on the sheets. He said oh the charaters fill those parts in. And it clicked, I never asked for DMing advice again. After 3 failed campaigns (and one was a real disaster), boom! my fourth was a HUGE success. 6 months later once the campaign drew to a close I had too many people asking to be in my next set of adventures. Woah Nelly, will you further explain this? I re-started playing DnD 3.5 last year (monthly) after a 15 year hiatus from 2.0(?), and am looking into beginning DM'ing. For now, I'm mastering all the rules and rolls so that I don't have to hit the book for every call, but that's the easy part of DM'ing. What did you mean by "the characters fill those parts in?" The obvious inference is that PC actions dictate the plot so that they don't have be railroaded, or am I wrong? If correct, how do you build the world around them when you don't know where they're going? This is clueless inexperience asking. Chuck
Conshey 09-10-06, 01:43 PM	I'm learning to DM right now by running a solo campign with my current DM. She is a really good DM, I really like her style. Because it's just the two of us and because I'm not afraid to ask her for help I feel like I'm learning a lot. Talk to them about the problems you've noticed with the game and offer to help them during the game. Sit beside him, offer to look things up to save time if he seems a bit lost and just be supportive. It'll probably make him feel more comfortable, and that will probably let him relinquish some of the control. wow, exactly on the money. What i do when one of my players (i've DM'd almost consistantly for 5 years now) want to run a game or a campaign is that i'll play a character and offer to Co-DM. DMing is a lot easier if you dont have to worry about how certain things effect what. Help him prep his game, and help the players from railroading the DM (this happens often with begining DM's and often results in overcompensation by the DM), while prepping ask for reasons behind certain aspects of the adventure, and make him think about how this would affect that, or even how it would affect a PC. Just because it isn't mentioned in the Adventure doesn't mean the DM doesn't know it's there. DMing is a very complex version of storytelling, that involves integrating choices and consequences that the players make and experience, while trying to move the story forward using the same method (basically extreme cause and effect done over a large scale method). You being the experienced DM should help him understand that the PC's are the heroes and that not every NPC is going to be high level, infact most are level 1, and they are depending on the heroes to save them. Work with him on some town demographics found on pg 136 of the DMG to help him understand that fact. Try drawing up a Metropolis on that basis and he might discover that 25000 out of the 26000 ppl in the metro are lv1 and will prolly die level 1. Hope that helps Conshey
Magnus Magus 09-10-06, 04:33 PM	How to Tell Someone They're a Bad DM? Quick answer nobody's suggested: Send them a link to this page. Sure they might be offended at first, but maybe they'll see a few of your points. Of course, it's ruder than actually sitting down and speaking to the person like a human being... you know... like they had to do before Al Gore invented the internet. While some people are born to DM, most good DMs usually evolve from bad ones. It takes a lot of insight to make that first step out of the primordial ooze...or sometimes a push from outside. If you can't find the cajones to confront him/her, perhaps you can research a bit and find articles on the web or in Dungeon Magazine (or other publications) that might steer them in the right direction. All you have to do is say "Hey, check this article out! I think there are some really good ideas here." At the very least, it is a good icebreaker and a bit more respectful than saying "DOOD! UR GAM3 SUXXXXXXXX!!!"
Righter8 09-10-06, 05:14 PM	Hopefully I can get both player and DM's opinions on this... Now the person themselves is an ok guy but how do you actually go about telling them that their game sucks? He has a fear of PC power and does not actually belive that he is heavily railroading. The other current players (two) are pushovers and just follow the crowd. Other new players are joining but I don't want their first DnD game to be this. So other then being honest (without being too honest) and calm about it what actually can you say to the guy. Since I'm a player & DM, I'd say- As a player: "As DM, you suck." As a DM: "As a DM, You suck BAD!"
Dwarvenforged 09-10-06, 10:59 PM	Well, a few of the players that I play with are bad DMs as well. Everybody else in the group knows it, so we simply muscle them out of DMing. Whenever the bad DM wants to DM, we'll just say, "Oh, I already said I was DMing this Friday" or something similar. Eventually, the player gets the picture, and he just doesn't try to DM for awhile. Also: When the bad DM does fight his way into DMing, we break his spirit. That may not be a very good way to handle things, but it's a lot of fun for us. For instance, one of our bad DM's ran a Kingdoms of Kalamar adventure, so we all created Halfing Pig Farmers wielding pig sticks that only do subdual damage. We also all rode pig mounts into battle. We turned what would have been a horrible night into one where we couldn't stop laughing. If we're getting railroaded we push back. One of our player's characters commited suicide because he was tired of being railroaded. The DM made his character the key to saving the world, and when he died, the whole campaign ended. (A very bad idea) Of course, you could just tell him that the way he DMs isn't the way you guys want to play the game. It might hurt his feelings, but it's more upront and honest than what we do. :D
Sinner6 09-11-06, 01:18 PM	Woah Nelly, will you further explain this? I re-started playing DnD 3.5 last year (monthly) after a 15 year hiatus from 2.0(?), and am looking into beginning DM'ing. For now, I'm mastering all the rules and rolls so that I don't have to hit the book for every call, but that's the easy part of DM'ing. What did you mean by "the characters fill those parts in?" The obvious inference is that PC actions dictate the plot so that they don't have be railroaded, or am I wrong? If correct, how do you build the world around them when you don't know where they're going? This is clueless inexperience asking. Chuck They don't dictate the plot but fill in the gaps. Let me put it this way you don't railroad pc but some things are inevitable. The showdown with the bad guy for example, The real deal trouble maker has something the pcs want (the girl, the treasure, the land) or may be causing trouble ( hiring goblins, orcs, kobolds to sack towns, usurp a kings, or spread her religion, be it Mammon, or whatever, or the villian just wants to kill and eat elves). Unless the PCs flee the area they WILL have deal with the villian, he is just to omnipresnt to ignore. In when/how is up to them, do they raise an army to shatter the orc army or just behead the villian in a sneaky raid or wait till winter and poison the villians food supply or send in a spy and incite a riot, perhaps and evil adventuring group my seek to join up and usrup the villians position as top bad guy in the region. Of course their can be distractions on the way, like if a paladin wants to go smite some undead, maybe the you can have an excess of ghouls in the area. After killing a bunch of ghouls and poking around the ghouls hangout, the PCs just happen to discover that the villian is responseable for the ghouls raising them directly or accidently raising them dabbling in dark magics he didn't understand. There are lots of ways to get the PCs from point A to B, why do all that that work to decide how when within 2 minutes players will have shot the plans straight out the window, and come up with something just as intersting. Just setup a handful of breadcrumbs in a couple of spots and it tends to work itself out. The hard part is giving the PCs a reason to get out the door, once they are out adventuring they will be happy to have the characters on the road for months/years at a time. A few tips that might help -- Be a player for at least 3 or 4 campaigns first, just being familiar with D&D is good. -- Make your first campaign a dungeon crawl or creature kill fest. And tell your players upfront, that puts the players certian mindset that helps keep them on task, plus it gives you some experiance with combat rules. -- Being a co-dm or dms helper can really help you alot. An experianced DM shouldn't need alot of help but assisting in a large group can really help you with the rules and mechanics. More importantly you get some practice making judgement calls. -- Make sure you have and understanding of ALL the classes your allowing in the campaign. The bad DM I mentioned earlier never plays spellcasters and just doesn't get them, thus in his adventures NPC spellcasters are wildly ineffective; by the same token he always underestimates what the PCs can do with their spellcasters, so we would kill all the monsters about as twice as fast as he planned. Does anyone know of a good Tips for First Time DM thread?
Aliandrin 09-14-06, 10:18 PM	Why be angry when NPCs are always twenty levels higher than the PCs? I seriously don't get this... The PCs should be the strongest characters in the world just because they're the PCs? This to me is intuitively illogical. There is nothing wrong with a strong kingdom having an army of level 17 Fighters. The cost to hire such individuals certainly isn't greater than the assets of a kingdom or even the loot the fighters will produce - just send your army to slay a few dragons once in a while. Experience Points are not a commodity the player characters have a monopoly on. Some people may be used to soft DMs that let the PCs go willy-nilly around the universe, slaughtering foes and defeating enemies, but a true DM allows the possibility of failure, even the probability of it. It may be fun to always be on the winning team, but honestly, D&D isn't a video game and if you think you should always be able to level up and get stronger without the NPCs doing so as well, go play a video game.
was_fired 09-15-06, 12:47 AM	Aliandrin, you reversed it. D&D is a game of heroes sure your not meant to be the world's top dogs early on, but your meant to become major players in the world (or at least where the game takes place). Video games are the exact opposite. No matter how strong you get in a video game you still are only just as good as the enemies your fighting. A level 1 fighter fights a level 1 skeleton then a level 60 fighter fights a level 60 skeleton. The only things that changes as you level is the amount of eye candy. In a normal D&D campaign you start out being impressive people from a village (level 1), but maybe not the absolute best. Then you become skilled warriors better than all but the elites of most armies (level 5). If you keep going you end up as strong as all but the most famous figures of the material and on par with some of the middle weights on the planes (level 10). Continuing up your actions can reshape the world, crush economies, and level cities, but normally your too busy making sure things don't do this to do it yourself (level 15). Then you end up on par with all but the highest layer of beings in exisitance possessing the ability to reshape the fabric of the world (level 20). If you keep going godhood awaits (or epic levels, but frankly those rules sort of suck).
Aliandrin 09-15-06, 02:08 AM	What makes you think that NPCs don't level up too? They have in every game I've ever been in, and it's always made sense to me. Go to a castle, and the elite guard may consist of ten 8th-level Fighters. By the time the PCs come back a year later, who is to say that the guard won't have led a few quests to wipe the area clean of red dragon younglings? There might be eight 15th-level Fighters when the PCs return a year later. The other places in the game do not freeze when the PCs leave them - again, this is not a video game - do they? It is simply a mathematical certainty that you can't deliberately level-up to beat someone who is stronger than you because at their level, the rate at which they gain XP is phenomenally faster, even if they only level up as quickly as you do. Don't forget that the higher-level NPC has resorces to help him level that players probably don't, like being a part of an army and automatically getting paid, or whatever resource the DM decides to give them. The king probably owns massive amounts of magic weapons, a comparable-level soldier NPC is probably better equipped most of the time than a PC - he just doesn't own any of his gear. What would the kind do with all his money, NOT buy the best instruments of war and NOT give them to his soldiers to use?
pokemaniacbill 09-15-06, 05:09 AM	I just wanted to respond to a point about NPCs levelling. I don't DM. I probably never will, I love the rules too much and plan too meticulously to ever write one session's general ideas. Maybe a module. But I'd probably suck at that too. But you know, here's... here's the thing. NPCs? They die. Yeah. I know. It's shocking. They fight things and they don't do as well because they're the PCs, and PCs have a bigger bump then most of the NPCs in terms of how powerful they are. That's why you're playing them and not the NPC. A powerful NPC or NPC party? Interesting. Ultrapowerful NPCs everywhere? Pitiful. NPCs are not active adventurers. A non-player character, unless they have another specific designation like "Rival", "Fellow Adventurer", "Head Priest of the biggest temple in the land", is not as interested in active adventuring. They don't level up. For anyone to have a class level is rare, for them to have a level 8 is damn near impossible. You want a Level 2 Warrior/Level 6 fighter? Make them a middle ranking fighter like a Sergaent. You want a 13th level fighter? They're probably WAY higher up. When you get to personal bodyguards, then yeah, you probably have a case for levelling up. But if you don't keep the world realistic by keeping people in the right positions ("The farmer had a +5 Flaming WHAT?") is just stupid and insecure as a DM.
Count Arioch the 28th 09-15-06, 09:49 AM	Aliandrin, that's not a problem at all. What the problem is is when everyone on the planet is 10+ levels higher than the PCs. Sure, I could see an elite group of level 15 fighters working for the King, but does the miller need to be a 19th level monk? Or the baker a 15th level wizard? How about making the tavern wench a 30th level dragon shaman? That's what the complaint is. It's not a problem when there are NPCs in the world that are just higher level than the PCs. It's when EVERYONE on the planet is higher level than the PCs, and use their levels to bully them around. "What, you won't go kill those goblins that are stealing from the supply coaches from Freeport? Then I'll just kick your ass, I'm a 40th level barbarian! now MARCH!"
Ut-Napishtim 09-15-06, 01:05 PM	There is nothing wrong with a strong kingdom having an army of level 17 Fighters. Dude, that is so going in my sig. :rofl:
Sapp 09-15-06, 03:45 PM	Let's not rush to judgment, Aliandrin might have been kidding. I know I certainly get misinterpreted a lot when I don't use sarcasm tags or smileys.
Ut-Napishtim 09-19-06, 09:06 AM	I seriously doubt it, dude. He constructed two posts explaining his reasoning behind it. I mean sure - like he says NPCs advance as well, but an army of 17th level guys? A Metropolis has pretty good odds of having one or two, but a company is like 120 men, a battalion is like 600, and a brigade (the smallest element that could really be considered an "army" for all intents and purposes) is around 5k. So, assuming some decent rolling, counting any fighters say 15th-20th level, and allowing for some that don't live in major population centers you still pretty much have to hire every decent beatstick on the planet. Assuming an average of 17th level and going by NPC Warrior wages with minimum room and board expenses of 2gp/month (yeah, these guys are really going to live in those conditions and work for silvers :rolleye2: ) that comes to an expense of 25,833 gold a day. Holy deficit spending, Batman! :uh-huh:
ShadowDragon8685 09-19-06, 09:50 AM	There's three ways that come to my mind of doing it. Four ways. Two of them at least are offensive and funny, two might work. 1: Sing it to him, a capella. You know... "You" "Youu" "Youuu" "Youuuu!" "Suuuu-uuuuuhh-uuuuuckkkkh!" 2: Take out an ad in the local newspaper advertising a complete lack of things to do for a D&D 3.5 gaming group. Specify the nights and times of his games. Give him a copy of said page, with said ad highlighted in yellow and circled five times with black marker. Have the other players and yourself sign it. 3. Roleplay it. "Well, everyone else is so much more qualified for this than we are." Go up to any random 17th level army private, tell him that this is for him, give him the broken artifact, and go home and take ranks in Profession (Pig Farmer). 4. Sit down with him, frankly and honestly explain to him that his game feels like being lead around by the :censored: and that frankly you're sick and tired of it. If his act dosen't reform in a big way, you're all going to excercize Rule -1, and vote with your feet.
FeceMan 09-20-06, 05:31 PM	There's three ways that come to my mind of doing it. Four ways. Two of them at least are offensive and funny, two might work. 1: Sing it to him, a capella. You know... "You" "Youu" "Youuu" "Youuuu!" "Suuuu-uuuuuhh-uuuuuckkkkh!" 2: Take out an ad in the local newspaper advertising a complete lack of things to do for a D&D 3.5 gaming group. Specify the nights and times of his games. Give him a copy of said page, with said ad highlighted in yellow and circled five times with black marker. Have the other players and yourself sign it. 3. Roleplay it. "Well, everyone else is so much more qualified for this than we are." Go up to any random 17th level army private, tell him that this is for him, give him the broken artifact, and go home and take ranks in Profession (Pig Farmer). 4. Sit down with him, frankly and honestly explain to him that his game feels like being lead around by the :censored: and that frankly you're sick and tired of it. If his act dosen't reform in a big way, you're all going to excercize Rule -1, and vote with your feet. I'd do it with a red marker, and number three is clearly the best option. For maximum hilarity.