Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Slider33 01-12-05, 02:49 PM	I've got kind of a concern. I've decided to play a rogue in my friends upcoming campaign. Thinking long term, I'm not really sure what to do. I'm not really looking at it from a min/max standpoint, but I do want to remain competitive with my fellow party members, who tend to be geared towards powergaming. (THis much I'm sure of I've DM'ed for them in the past.) From a roleplaying standpoint I think I will really love being a rogue. I know I will like being that type of character. Problem is, since my other player friends are geared toward powergaming classes, so I worry at later levels I may become useless (if that's even possible). From my standpoint, I am not an experienced player. (I've done more DM'ing than playing) So from a player perspective, I'm basically a n00b that knows the rules. Even as a DM I'm relatively new, and we haven't progressed to very high levels yet. I don't have any experience with having a character of any medium to high levels. I really want to stick with the rogue, but I don't want to fade into the background and just be a lockpicker/disarm trap-guy. My friends are going to be a couple of psionic classes. I have no knowlege of their capabilities, so I worry I'll be too underpowered, or how useful I will be later on. Depending on how powerful they get I don't just want to have a useless character who's just good at finding traps and stealing things. The way they speak of psionic classes, makes them *sound* incredibly overpowered so I don't know if that's all fluff or not. So, it boils down to this: Should I multiclass, and if so, what should I be? What types of things could I be to compliment my party members? I am leaning toward a sneak-attack style rogue at this particular time, which should be fun to play, but I worry about if that will be "competitive" later on. I've also considered taking on the Assassin PrC later on too. I think the use of poisons and special abilities will be fun and interesting. Although the Assassin class typically leans towards evil alignment, there are exceptions, but I'll have to play it carefully. Mostly because I expect myself to roleplay into that PrC... I assume my DM will also expect us to roleplay into any PrC's we want. If rogues are fine in later levels, then no worries I'll be more than happy with it. If it's wise to multiclass then I should probably do that. So my question is basically, what should I do with my rogue? And the other is, what can I expect of Psionic classes? You'll have to forgive me for worrying, as a DM I have grown suspicious of materials that I haven't studied/played with. I never know how balanced they are. ;)
Avatarblu 01-12-05, 02:58 PM	Well, the first question I have is what are the other characters in the campaign? Are they all combat masters? The second question is what type of campaign is it? Will it be a hack and slash dungeon crawl? Or will it be a more character driven storyline? A rogue with the proper feats can be quite deadly if it is hack and slash as well. There are the bow feats, the improved feinting feats, the move and hit feats, the move and coup de grace (sp?) feats. Anyway, hope this helps. :)
Slider33 01-12-05, 04:17 PM	I'm pretty sure about the campaign, will be geared towards dungeon crawl/hack and slash type things. Or it is safe to say that will be the major part of it, character driven things and roleplaying will take a back seat. There will be 4 of us, counting me. 2 psionic characters and 1 other unknown but probably a fighter type or mage. (which raises the concern of our party not having a cleric but that's another subject altogether). If I don't play rogue, I'll definetely play the cleric. That's what I have my hopes set on since I really want to "play" with a rogues capabilities doing sneaky, thieving type things in non-combat situations. My best guess is that the 2 psion classes will very likely be heavy combat oriented if that helps at all.
Maerdash 01-12-05, 05:05 PM	probably be a psychic warrior/soulknife wilder combination but thats beside the point you were asking about the rogue. Well if you focus on skills such as tumble and balance and use terrain and flanking to your advantage you can deal out horrible damage, im currently playing in a game with a 9th level rougue with two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting as two of her feats she does anywhere from 22 points an average with a hit while flanking(single hit) to 88 points when she hits with all four attacks. I dont know what other feats she has but she is proof that when a player puts their mind to it any class can become an absolute terror on the battle field. Just imagine thise rogue balancing on a roof top taking on a fighter in full plate. ouch :D
spasheridan 01-12-05, 05:16 PM	Lucky for you, the complete adventurer came out.. so check it out for PrCs, neat feats, gear, and ways to use your skills. As far as is the rogue a competitive PC all the way through.. well here's a few things to consider: 1 - the main "power" of a rogue is it's skills. Not just pick locks / traps / sneak but bluff, diplomacy, and Use Magic Device. A rogue will ALWAYS have those skills and as long as you have opportunities to use them you will be competitive. 2 - What is your role? A rogue is not a tanker, a rogue is not a caster. Your role is scouting, dealing with traps, and sneak attacks if you can get away with them. If you try to tank you will die. But you can help a tanker. You can't be a caster but you could help a caster (use magic device and wands of cure light wounds) 3 - What is fun for you? If fun for you as a player is tanking, a rogue is a poor choice. If fun for you as a player is dropping nukes, a rogue i not for you. If fun for you as a player is sneaking around and using skills... well, here's your class. Finally, if you're thinking about how to build your PC... consider a halfling rogue / master thrower. They're deadly if the thing can be hit with sneak attacks.
WarRabbit 01-12-05, 05:58 PM	Other classes which blend well with rogue are swashbuckler(get 3 levels to add int bonus to damage) and invisible blade (add int bonus to AC plus free action bluff means sneak attack at will).
Slider33 01-12-05, 06:02 PM	Thanks for the feedback! That helps a lot, and the information everyone gave me is good news for me. I'll definetely have fun with the rogue class, I look forward to trying to utilize my skills in different situations as opposed to straight nuking or tanking. So I'm good there. I think it will be a blast! I'll enjoy the rogue style. A lot of it depends on the DM too I suppose, and depends on the type of game he runs and if he can accomodate things for everyone's class. Like cover, traps, locked doors etc. etc. If those things don't exist there's not much to do for a rogue (unless of course I create my own situations) Like one of you said "as long as there are opportunities" for me to use those skills. I'm pretty hyped about playing a rogue, I think if played well, it should be a really fun class to play. Since I mentioned that I'm leaning towards a sneak-attack rogue for combat purposes, should I invest in two weapon fighting? For the most part, I am going to take improved feint and try to utilize sneak attacks that way with a high bluff skill. Plus I'm going to try and utilize tumble to get into positions. Would it be more advisable to go with a 2 wpn fighting rogue, or will it be sufficiently effective to go with normal 1 weapon style?
Slider33 01-12-05, 06:11 PM	Another quick question.... would a Rogue/shadowdancer be a pretty nice class to play as opposed to a Rogue/Assassin or straight Rogue?
Maerdash 01-12-05, 06:48 PM	As far as two weapon fighting goes it can be nice even better when mixed with weapon finesse and weapon focus so that you hit more reliably, as for shadow dancer oover assassin ive played both and both have their good points but in my experience the hide in plain sight ability tops anything you get as an assassin( other than death attack and if your doing nothing for three rounds DURING a battle your not gonna be that effective. Keep in mind this is just my oppinion i know there are better players out there who can list off steams of reasons why this is better than that, i cant i just give advice based on what works best for ME. have fun game hard enjoy the look on the barons face when he realizes you arent the kings cousin thrice removed :D
evangelion1010 01-12-05, 09:50 PM	In general, rogues are considered the only non-caster class that continues to keep the same general amount of power as them, even at higher levels. Their skills make them invaluable, buying a ring of blinking (27k, DMG) for 50% concealment, auto sneak attack, and only 20% miss chance for you... not a bad deal. Not to mention UMD makes them able healers at higher levels, running around with CMW and such. Also, taking out guards and in general making combat very hard for the enemies before it starts...thats the rogue. If you're a wisper gnome, consider yourself set for usefulness throught the entire game.
arphaxad 01-12-05, 09:59 PM	As someone who enjoys playing rogues of all levels, I can say yes you can be competitive with the psions and all that at high levels, of course you will die in one on one combat with a psion if you don't get the drop on one, but i digress. Invisible blade is one of the best fighting rogue prestige classes imagineable, plus having so much bluff, nobody in the party beleives a word you say is fun. My high level rogue probably has about the same amount of skills as any other two party members put together. (it's always fun to say that you got a 60 on a hide check or a 45 taking ten on a search) If you do multiclass make sure you find one with good fort or will saves, because you'll never make any of those save otherwise. If you want to play a rogue/cleric pick up the complete adventuer which has the shadowbane inquisitor and the other one. Cleric/rogue can synergize well, because of the saves, and if you need a healer and trapfinder, maybe that's your calling.
Findarato 01-13-05, 01:23 AM	As a rogue, you also have a couple options you may not have considered. Ranger skills mesh nicely with those of a rogue, combine your rogue abilities with carefully selected favored enemies, an animal companion at later levels to help get you the flank you need, and free two-weapon fighting to take advantage of your flanking. Another build that I currently am using and finding success with is taking a couple levels of Fighter and using those fighter feats to learn to use a Spiked Chain and take Weapon Finesse. Chain's do good damage, threaten both adjacent and 10' away, and can be used with finesse. The fighter skills work well if you build towards the Thief-Acrobat PrC which isn't a bad idea for a combat character either. Also consider adding druid levels, as you can summon flank buddies, heal and have the animal companion from the start to help your flank. Druids also have the saves to make up where the rogue lacks, fortitude and will. Druid skills mesh nicely, and the restriction to leather armor isn't likely to hurt your rogue much, since most rogues I've ever played don't wear armor that is much heavier than that anyway. PS: 3 seperate characters, not one with a bunch of different classes
PhaedrusXY 01-13-05, 04:39 AM	I think along the same lines as Findarto. If you want to be able to dish out massive damage, go with the Two Weapon Fighting feats. A high level rogue can deal a devestating amount of damage to targets that aren't immune to Sneak Attacks. If you want to be more defensive, you might consider the Spiked Chain. It is finessable, and with it's large threatened area it synergizes well with Spring Attack. Hide in Plain Sight is very useful, but the Assassin also gets that ability now, just not as soon as a Shadow Dancer. I don't care for the Shadow Dancer PrC, except for maybe taking a single level of it for Hide in Plain Sight. Otherwise, it is kind of weak. I think it should probably get full base attack progression, but I guess whoever designed it disagreed.
Derren S. 01-13-05, 05:12 AM	The only problem is that the rogues sneak attack can easily be negated by concealment or later fortification. If you think your DM is also a minmaxer rogues would at high level drop in effectivness as many enemies will have fortification armor. And skills in a h&s game are as good as useless.
CaoSlayer 01-13-05, 05:50 AM	power wise there is one thing that it is a must at the later levels: spellcasting every class that lacks some kind of spellcasting tend to fall behind in power. a diferent twist would be to use the arcane trickter, you will be a rogue with a touch of spellcasting that will be very useful, just use haste twice per day and your mates will love you, or then isntead of spending a million gp in a ring of blink, learn blink and cast it yourself (and later improved inv. or improved blink)
Dunelord 01-13-05, 06:15 AM	A psyonic rog. on the website. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b The Invisable Blade is a good PrC, and the author has his own version that I like better on his web site. http://www.wakinglands.com Sorry you have click on the links at the page, the way it is set up you can't do a direct link.
Nom 01-13-05, 09:05 AM	Don't forget the Rogue bonus feats. Some of them are really good. A high level rogue plays much like a low level rogue, but moreso. At low levels, the rogue's skill in combat is to be there then not there. To strike fast, hard, and be gone before the enemy realises what just happened. This gets easier at higher levels, due to some rather nifty feats. But at higher levels, the hp difference between the rogue and tanks is marked. At low level, you can occasionally get away with trying to stand and fight with the big boys. At high levels, you deserve to die, and probably will.
Slider33 01-13-05, 12:39 PM	I think I'll be limited when it comes to PrC's that I'll be able to pull from. My DM only has core materials, counting the SRD, so any other sources I'm not sure if I'll be able to pull from those or not. So my PrC's are limited to what's in the 3.5 DMG pretty much, although I do like the sound of some other suggestions that were mentioned. I'm not sure if I should go with an assassin really, in the right situations it would be really nice but in general combat I'm not sure. As someone mentioned the drawback of death attack takes a long time to set up, and once combat has started that may not be the best option. I really like the sound of the shadowdancer class, it didn't appear weak to me but I have no experience with them at all. I am pretty much leaning towards a support role anyway, since I can safely bet the other guys will be the heavy damage dealers. As long as I can hold my own I'll be happy. I think the shadowdancer should come in handy being a great spy and thief, so although it may not be combat oriented I think it will be fun to play, don't you think? It's a tough decision creating a rogue there are a lot of options to consider like this. Thanks for the feedback!
Tein 01-13-05, 02:15 PM	A rouge made right will be useful in higher levels because of skills. Because of the fact in epic levels everthing and a half has heavy fort or is a golem of some kind.
Cole 01-13-05, 03:10 PM	Have you considered a Rogue/Cleric? That would satisfy your desire to play the sneaky, skill-driven character, as well as giving your party some of the healing spells and assistance spells that are to be found with the divine spellcasters. Also, some of the stealth, shadow, and related domains can add interest to the class combo.
Slider33 01-13-05, 03:31 PM	I've definetely considered multiclassing a rogue/cleric. Would be a very interesting combination of a character I've never really given much thought on the roleplay aspect of that type of character. May have to move my stats around a bit though, don't know if I had originally planned on putting a lot of points into wisdom but my charisma score I planned on making decent because of CHA based skills like bluff (for feinting). I may have to play around with some character builds but it would at least give me a touch of both worlds.
Bane 01-13-05, 10:07 PM	Play a Rogue 13/Assassin 1/Invisible Blade 5/Shadowdancer 1 +11d6 Sneak attack pretty much every attack. Poison. Hide in plain sight if you need to get somewhere undetected. Take Arterial Strike, Hamstring, Crippling Strike, a pair of wounding Daggers, and stat damage anything that gets in your way. Strike and fade. You'll be giving the DM reasons to nerf rogues left and right.
shallbehealed 01-14-05, 11:22 AM	I've definetely considered multiclassing a rogue/cleric. There's a great build on the C/O boards called the Divine Trickster. It's probably one of the most thought out and intelligent builds I've seen, and seems playable from low levels. I'd link it, but I'm must too lazy, so you'll have to use the search future yourself.
PaTRiXXX 01-14-05, 02:05 PM	If you visit the CO board and ask around you will be surprised to find that rogue 20 is a very respectable build, and you know how are things there. You just have to learn to use your skills, get good charisma and inteligence scores as long as dexterity and constitution, at high levels all those abilities are needed at almost the same level. The only thing magic will not be able to copy is your skills, for example a high hide score is better than invisibility, UMD can make you a very good magic user (secondary caster) and bluff and diplomacy can be very powerful even at high levels.
Snap Agro 01-14-05, 04:05 PM	Hello :), I am currently playing a 16th level halfling rogue under 3.5 rules. She is so much fun when I play her right & a source of frustration if I don't play her right. :P Anyway, I am about to multi class to a Shadowdancer next time she levels & I'm looking forward to trying my first mc'd character. I think you will enjoy your rogue in the higher levels, they are so versatile & complex. I was torn between staying straight Rogue or taking Shadowdancer or Cleric to make her a little more fun & useful during higher levels. I thought the Hide in Plain sight & Darkvision features of the Shadowdancer would make her more deadly & round her out nicely. The Shadow companion could be fun & helpful to my party as an extra scout, plus the d8 hit die will add to her hit points nicely. I have been wanting to put my rogue on the Optimisation board to get some advice on her from this community, so I will be doing that soon. PM me if you have any questions, I'm really not an experienced gamer like the helpful people on these boards, but I can tell you of my experiences playing my rogue. Be well & enjoy your rogue! Snap :)
Bopple 01-14-05, 07:32 PM	If you want to be a combat rogue, be sure to have high Con. Because of the low hit dice and Con bonus, rogues cannot withstand much damage. Then, you cannot deal much damage, even if you have high sneak attack damage dice.
spasheridan 01-14-05, 07:41 PM	I think I'll be limited when it comes to PrC's that I'll be able to pull from. My DM only has core materials, counting the SRD, so any other sources I'm not sure if I'll be able to pull from those or not. So my PrC's are limited to what's in the 3.5 DMG pretty much, although I do like the sound of some other suggestions that were mentioned. 1) Psionics is OK, but no supplements for the other classes?? sounds a little stingy but OK 2) Shadowdancer is the way to go. Trust me. Just 2 levels for HiPs and Darkvision. All the rest is sneak attack dice.
Dunelord 01-14-05, 11:05 PM	You can always play a Shadow Dancer who uses his Shade to attack for him. The str drain helps.