How valuable is Favoured Class: Any? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How valuable is Favoured Class: Any? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Reversefigure4
07-11-06, 09:36 PM Wasn't sure whether this or the Races board would be a better fit for this.

OK, here's the deal. I'm trying to make a Cleric of Fharlanghn, who walks the earth in bare feet and unarmoured, carrying a simple quarterstaff. I'd like him to be an Elf, in order to have the longest possible lifespan for all his travelling.

Flaw: The game isn't designed for Clerics to not wear armour, so I decided to put my first level in Monk, then all the rest in Cleric.
Flaw: This incurs horrible multiclass penalties forever for the character, unless I make him human or half-elf. But I'd like to be an elf.

So I'm thinking of getting the DM to trade in a few Elvish bonuses in exchange for Favoured Class: Any (or FC: Cleric, it makes no difference). What's a fair trade-off for this?

I'm thinking of dropping the immunity to sleep, the +2 saving throw bonus, and all the weapon proficiencies in exchange for the FC. Fair trade, or am I screwing the DM over? How valuable is Favoured Class?

* +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution.
* Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
* Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
* Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
* Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
* Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
* +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
* Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
* Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf’s wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

If anyone has another solution to the problem, by all means share your thoughts, but:
- It's only going to start as a Level 2 character. Monk's Belt isn't feasible.
- It has to be core only - if I can't find it in the straight PHB, I probably can't use it.

Cheers.
Nom
07-11-06, 10:13 PM You'll notice that races with Favoured Class: Any don't have ability mods, and vice versa. A fair trade would be to lose the elvish racial mods.

If I were DM, I'd keep the Con mod but give you two free points in Con (assuming point buy). This effectively removes the Con mod unless you want a score over 12.

The value of favoured class: Any is highly situational. Its main benefit is to make level-dipping a lot easier. If you want to play a single-classed character, it is of no benefit. If you want to pick up a bit of this and a bit of that, it's a huge benefit.

BTW - what's wrong with playing a half-elf? If your main concern is lifespan, then this still gives most of that flavour.
Rerecros
07-11-06, 10:24 PM Some of the racial stuff is based on biology, like low-light vision and stat adjustments.
But the rest is sociology, elves tend to be wizards because their society encourages it.
But your elf may be from a religious village of elves, so they would be encouraged to become clerics.
just talk to your DM about it.
Elthy
07-11-06, 11:23 PM "Cleric of Fharlanghn, who walks the earth in bare feet and unarmoured, carrying a simple quarterstaff"

Does anyone else smell the Vow of Poverty coming along to fix all of his problems at once?

*edit*

Sorry, I missed the core comment. Maybe you could use the vow to model something with your DM, though?
SoldierOfFortune187
07-11-06, 11:29 PM glamered armor can keep you looking the part without compromising armor / character class.
Zuj
07-11-06, 11:30 PM Isn't Fharlanghn Chaotic in alignment? Doesn't this disqualify monks of worshipping this deity?
SoldierOfFortune187
07-11-06, 11:34 PM Isn't Fharlanghn Chaotic in alignment? Doesn't this disqualify monks of worshipping this deity?

True Neutral (unless that has since been changed). Also worshippers (clerics) may be within one step of their diety's alignment.
Alynn
07-12-06, 03:45 AM But monks must be lawful.
Aricandor
07-12-06, 03:57 AM And Lawful Neutral is one convenient step away from Neutral. ;)
Solian
07-12-06, 05:49 AM Some of the racial stuff is based on biology, like low-light vision and stat adjustments.
But the rest is sociology, elves tend to be wizards because their society encourages it.
But your elf may be from a religious village of elves, so they would be encouraged to become clerics.
just talk to your DM about it.

THis is the option i would take a p[layer to take if i was the DM. It's Quick, Easy and doesnt compromise anything ingame except fot XP. Peoples Backgorunds may be different and so may have a different Favored Class from that of their race because of it.
WayneTheGame
07-12-06, 07:08 AM Just ask your DM to waive the favored class garbage for the character. My group routinely does away with it because all it does is limit your options with character concepts and doesn't really "balance" anything.
babysamurai
07-12-06, 07:43 AM But monks must be lawful.

Not all monks.
pres_man
07-12-06, 08:46 AM Why not instead take a level in wizard (elf's fav'ed class) and then take the spells mage armor and shield. Blam! +8 to AC right there, and who knows maybe Mystic Theurge later on. ;)
Millennium
07-12-06, 09:09 AM There's no Core way to do what you want. However, since you only intend to take one level of monk, I'd recommend working this into your character's backstory. Perhaps he started out as an ascetic in a monastery, but found himself longing for travel, and eventually found the church of Fharlanghn. Although he clings to his ascetic ways, he has cast off the trappings of monkhood, and now walks the Earth in homage to his new god. In other words, he's a convert.

Represent this casting off of the trappings of monkhood by changing your alignment to one prohibited for monks. This locks you out of advancing as a monk, but allows you to keep your monk abilities, and it conveniently ensures that you're close to Fharlanghn's own mindset. Once you've done this, ask your DM if he might allow you to stop counting the monk class for XP penalties, since you're no longer able to advance in it anyway. It's not core, but since you've locked yourself out of the class many DMs will probably agree to it.
DarknessEternal
07-12-06, 09:57 AM Wear a Monk's Belt.

Take the feat Extra Favored Class from Unearthed Arcana.

Take one of the jillions of feats that make Cleric a favored class.
feartheinvinceblehamster
07-12-06, 10:01 AM Wear a Monk's Belt.

Take the feat Extra Favored Class from Unearthed Arcana.

Take one of the jillions of feats that make Cleric a favored class.

DID YOU EVEN READ HIS POST?

He starts at level 2. Can't get a monk's belt

CORE ONLY!!!
babysamurai
07-12-06, 10:13 AM Or, you could just suck it up, and take the -20 xp penalty.

Really, not a big deal.
Tormsskull
07-12-06, 10:40 AM If everything you say is true, as a DM I'd allow you to wave the exp penalty by reassigning your favored class to cleric. If you are trying to bend/break some rules that I am just seeing, then I'd just say "No" when that situation came up.

It seems like you are basically taking an unoptimized character for a character concept, and assuming you are going to be role-playing, I don't think it is too much for a DM to help you in this regard.
TarlSS
07-12-06, 01:42 PM Favored class doesn't really affect anything on the game side of the table.

A dwarven Cleric/Wizard is more or less going to be as effective as a human cleric/wizard in play. A 20% XP surcharge doesn't do much but unbalance things by forcing people who use builds that are already unoptimized to be even WORSE. They don't equalize optimized builds, so it's more of a questionable flavor issue; a throwback to earlier editions.
Crimson_Concerto
07-12-06, 01:57 PM Not all monks.
Where are there non-lawful monks?
Besides Dragon Magazine?
metamind
07-12-06, 02:07 PM Or, you could just suck it up, and take the -20 xp penalty.

Really, not a big deal.
I agree with samurai. Just suck it up.

Or play a human. Elves aren't that great anyways.
NightBreeze
07-12-06, 02:20 PM Where are there non-lawful monks?
Besides Dragon Magazine?

IIRC, Faerun Campaign Setting
moscatabaco76
07-12-06, 02:52 PM OK, here's the deal. I'm trying to make a Cleric of Fharlanghn, who walks the earth in bare feet and unarmoured, carrying a simple quarterstaff. I'd like him to be an Elf, in order to have the longest possible lifespan for all his travelling.

Flaw: The game isn't designed for Clerics to not wear armour, so I decided to put my first level in Monk, then all the rest in Cleric.
Flaw: This incurs horrible multiclass penalties forever for the character, unless I make him human or half-elf. But I'd like to be an elf.

Well, if you're playing strictly core only, with no house rules and no sourcebooks, there's little you can do. What I understand is that you want the monk class to get your wis modifier to AC; well honestly this will harm you at low levels, but apparently you're ready to sacrifice a lot for role playing; and being an armorless cleric is not as bad as being an armorless wizard, and the can manage, In other words, I'd sacrifice the armor and stay pure cleric to follow the character concept.

I'm thinking of dropping the immunity to sleep, the +2 saving throw bonus, and all the weapon proficiencies in exchange for the FC. Fair trade, or am I screwing the DM over? How valuable is Favoured Class?

This is between a fair trade and a rip-off against you. If I was the DM I'd let you do it in trade of weapon proficiences, as you clearly are sacrificing power for character concept. The favored class thing is usually not a big deal.
wonlee76
07-12-06, 04:43 PM The value of favored class for races is either it is worth nothing or its worth something.

Its worth nothing for a single class type. No penalty, no harm, no foul.
Its worth nothing for a PC that only uses 1 base class + a bunch of prestige classes.
Its worth nothing for a PC that multi-classes between 2 base classes but keeps the two classes within 1 level of each other at all times.

Its worth 'something' to those who multi-class between 2 base classes and there is more then 2 levels difference between the 2 base classes if one of those base classes is your favored class.

Its worth more to someone who multi-classes between 2 base classes and there is more then 2 levels difference between the 2 base classes that are not favored classes for the race in question since now there is a tangible penalty for doin this.

In all honesty, I dislike the idea of changing the racial benefits that you are even considering. I know it seems minor but I just don't like the precedent. Next thing some other player wants to change the racial benefits of human for "something". Or the dwarf wants to get something extra by switching darkvision for low light vision. etc. etc.

So my recommendation: Convince the DM to houserule that there are no "favored" classes that way all races get the benefit (and makes half-elf even more unappealing then they already are).

Otherwise, suck it up and take the penalty.
The man they call Boxhead
07-12-06, 06:52 PM Either sacrifice the XP or play an unarmoured Cleric. You'll need a better Dex than most clerics, but so what?

Alternatively, I'd probably allow an "Extra Favoured Class" Feat. I may change the favoured class (probably to Monk), but that would only be if I were feeling particularly generous.
Dougan Axehammer
07-14-06, 01:23 AM If you're looking for longevity, there is another option you can take, though it's not entirely core. The Epic Level Handbook contains a feat called Extend Life. It allows you to add a number of years to your characters life span, thereby increasing your longevity for awhile. You can also take it more than once, stacking the extra years to your life (this may have errata so don't quote me yet.) It doesn't take away any of the age modifiers, but it can essentially allow your character to live forever. That way you can be human instead, and you wouldn't have to worry about "favored class" issues.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Reversefigure4 07-11-06, 09:36 PM	Wasn't sure whether this or the Races board would be a better fit for this. OK, here's the deal. I'm trying to make a Cleric of Fharlanghn, who walks the earth in bare feet and unarmoured, carrying a simple quarterstaff. I'd like him to be an Elf, in order to have the longest possible lifespan for all his travelling. Flaw: The game isn't designed for Clerics to not wear armour, so I decided to put my first level in Monk, then all the rest in Cleric. Flaw: This incurs horrible multiclass penalties forever for the character, unless I make him human or half-elf. But I'd like to be an elf. So I'm thinking of getting the DM to trade in a few Elvish bonuses in exchange for Favoured Class: Any (or FC: Cleric, it makes no difference). What's a fair trade-off for this? I'm thinking of dropping the immunity to sleep, the +2 saving throw bonus, and all the weapon proficiencies in exchange for the FC. Fair trade, or am I screwing the DM over? How valuable is Favoured Class? * +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution. * Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. * Elf base land speed is 30 feet. * Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. * Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. * Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. * +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. * Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan. * Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf’s wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. If anyone has another solution to the problem, by all means share your thoughts, but: - It's only going to start as a Level 2 character. Monk's Belt isn't feasible. - It has to be core only - if I can't find it in the straight PHB, I probably can't use it. Cheers.
Nom 07-11-06, 10:13 PM	You'll notice that races with Favoured Class: Any don't have ability mods, and vice versa. A fair trade would be to lose the elvish racial mods. If I were DM, I'd keep the Con mod but give you two free points in Con (assuming point buy). This effectively removes the Con mod unless you want a score over 12. The value of favoured class: Any is highly situational. Its main benefit is to make level-dipping a lot easier. If you want to play a single-classed character, it is of no benefit. If you want to pick up a bit of this and a bit of that, it's a huge benefit. BTW - what's wrong with playing a half-elf? If your main concern is lifespan, then this still gives most of that flavour.
Rerecros 07-11-06, 10:24 PM	Some of the racial stuff is based on biology, like low-light vision and stat adjustments. But the rest is sociology, elves tend to be wizards because their society encourages it. But your elf may be from a religious village of elves, so they would be encouraged to become clerics. just talk to your DM about it.
Elthy 07-11-06, 11:23 PM	"Cleric of Fharlanghn, who walks the earth in bare feet and unarmoured, carrying a simple quarterstaff" Does anyone else smell the Vow of Poverty coming along to fix all of his problems at once? edit Sorry, I missed the core comment. Maybe you could use the vow to model something with your DM, though?
SoldierOfFortune187 07-11-06, 11:29 PM	glamered armor can keep you looking the part without compromising armor / character class.
Zuj 07-11-06, 11:30 PM	Isn't Fharlanghn Chaotic in alignment? Doesn't this disqualify monks of worshipping this deity?
SoldierOfFortune187 07-11-06, 11:34 PM	Isn't Fharlanghn Chaotic in alignment? Doesn't this disqualify monks of worshipping this deity? True Neutral (unless that has since been changed). Also worshippers (clerics) may be within one step of their diety's alignment.
Alynn 07-12-06, 03:45 AM	But monks must be lawful.
Aricandor 07-12-06, 03:57 AM	And Lawful Neutral is one convenient step away from Neutral. ;)
Solian 07-12-06, 05:49 AM	Some of the racial stuff is based on biology, like low-light vision and stat adjustments. But the rest is sociology, elves tend to be wizards because their society encourages it. But your elf may be from a religious village of elves, so they would be encouraged to become clerics. just talk to your DM about it. THis is the option i would take a p[layer to take if i was the DM. It's Quick, Easy and doesnt compromise anything ingame except fot XP. Peoples Backgorunds may be different and so may have a different Favored Class from that of their race because of it.
WayneTheGame 07-12-06, 07:08 AM	Just ask your DM to waive the favored class garbage for the character. My group routinely does away with it because all it does is limit your options with character concepts and doesn't really "balance" anything.
babysamurai 07-12-06, 07:43 AM	But monks must be lawful. Not all monks.
pres_man 07-12-06, 08:46 AM	Why not instead take a level in wizard (elf's fav'ed class) and then take the spells mage armor and shield. Blam! +8 to AC right there, and who knows maybe Mystic Theurge later on. ;)
Millennium 07-12-06, 09:09 AM	There's no Core way to do what you want. However, since you only intend to take one level of monk, I'd recommend working this into your character's backstory. Perhaps he started out as an ascetic in a monastery, but found himself longing for travel, and eventually found the church of Fharlanghn. Although he clings to his ascetic ways, he has cast off the trappings of monkhood, and now walks the Earth in homage to his new god. In other words, he's a convert. Represent this casting off of the trappings of monkhood by changing your alignment to one prohibited for monks. This locks you out of advancing as a monk, but allows you to keep your monk abilities, and it conveniently ensures that you're close to Fharlanghn's own mindset. Once you've done this, ask your DM if he might allow you to stop counting the monk class for XP penalties, since you're no longer able to advance in it anyway. It's not core, but since you've locked yourself out of the class many DMs will probably agree to it.
DarknessEternal 07-12-06, 09:57 AM	Wear a Monk's Belt. Take the feat Extra Favored Class from Unearthed Arcana. Take one of the jillions of feats that make Cleric a favored class.
feartheinvinceblehamster 07-12-06, 10:01 AM	Wear a Monk's Belt. Take the feat Extra Favored Class from Unearthed Arcana. Take one of the jillions of feats that make Cleric a favored class. DID YOU EVEN READ HIS POST? He starts at level 2. Can't get a monk's belt CORE ONLY!!!
babysamurai 07-12-06, 10:13 AM	Or, you could just suck it up, and take the -20 xp penalty. Really, not a big deal.
Tormsskull 07-12-06, 10:40 AM	If everything you say is true, as a DM I'd allow you to wave the exp penalty by reassigning your favored class to cleric. If you are trying to bend/break some rules that I am just seeing, then I'd just say "No" when that situation came up. It seems like you are basically taking an unoptimized character for a character concept, and assuming you are going to be role-playing, I don't think it is too much for a DM to help you in this regard.
TarlSS 07-12-06, 01:42 PM	Favored class doesn't really affect anything on the game side of the table. A dwarven Cleric/Wizard is more or less going to be as effective as a human cleric/wizard in play. A 20% XP surcharge doesn't do much but unbalance things by forcing people who use builds that are already unoptimized to be even WORSE. They don't equalize optimized builds, so it's more of a questionable flavor issue; a throwback to earlier editions.
Crimson_Concerto 07-12-06, 01:57 PM	Not all monks. Where are there non-lawful monks? Besides Dragon Magazine?
metamind 07-12-06, 02:07 PM	Or, you could just suck it up, and take the -20 xp penalty. Really, not a big deal. I agree with samurai. Just suck it up. Or play a human. Elves aren't that great anyways.
NightBreeze 07-12-06, 02:20 PM	Where are there non-lawful monks? Besides Dragon Magazine? IIRC, Faerun Campaign Setting
moscatabaco76 07-12-06, 02:52 PM	OK, here's the deal. I'm trying to make a Cleric of Fharlanghn, who walks the earth in bare feet and unarmoured, carrying a simple quarterstaff. I'd like him to be an Elf, in order to have the longest possible lifespan for all his travelling. Flaw: The game isn't designed for Clerics to not wear armour, so I decided to put my first level in Monk, then all the rest in Cleric. Flaw: This incurs horrible multiclass penalties forever for the character, unless I make him human or half-elf. But I'd like to be an elf. Well, if you're playing strictly core only, with no house rules and no sourcebooks, there's little you can do. What I understand is that you want the monk class to get your wis modifier to AC; well honestly this will harm you at low levels, but apparently you're ready to sacrifice a lot for role playing; and being an armorless cleric is not as bad as being an armorless wizard, and the can manage, In other words, I'd sacrifice the armor and stay pure cleric to follow the character concept. I'm thinking of dropping the immunity to sleep, the +2 saving throw bonus, and all the weapon proficiencies in exchange for the FC. Fair trade, or am I screwing the DM over? How valuable is Favoured Class? This is between a fair trade and a rip-off against you. If I was the DM I'd let you do it in trade of weapon proficiences, as you clearly are sacrificing power for character concept. The favored class thing is usually not a big deal.
wonlee76 07-12-06, 04:43 PM	The value of favored class for races is either it is worth nothing or its worth something. Its worth nothing for a single class type. No penalty, no harm, no foul. Its worth nothing for a PC that only uses 1 base class + a bunch of prestige classes. Its worth nothing for a PC that multi-classes between 2 base classes but keeps the two classes within 1 level of each other at all times. Its worth 'something' to those who multi-class between 2 base classes and there is more then 2 levels difference between the 2 base classes if one of those base classes is your favored class. Its worth more to someone who multi-classes between 2 base classes and there is more then 2 levels difference between the 2 base classes that are not favored classes for the race in question since now there is a tangible penalty for doin this. In all honesty, I dislike the idea of changing the racial benefits that you are even considering. I know it seems minor but I just don't like the precedent. Next thing some other player wants to change the racial benefits of human for "something". Or the dwarf wants to get something extra by switching darkvision for low light vision. etc. etc. So my recommendation: Convince the DM to houserule that there are no "favored" classes that way all races get the benefit (and makes half-elf even more unappealing then they already are). Otherwise, suck it up and take the penalty.
The man they call Boxhead 07-12-06, 06:52 PM	Either sacrifice the XP or play an unarmoured Cleric. You'll need a better Dex than most clerics, but so what? Alternatively, I'd probably allow an "Extra Favoured Class" Feat. I may change the favoured class (probably to Monk), but that would only be if I were feeling particularly generous.
Dougan Axehammer 07-14-06, 01:23 AM	If you're looking for longevity, there is another option you can take, though it's not entirely core. The Epic Level Handbook contains a feat called Extend Life. It allows you to add a number of years to your characters life span, thereby increasing your longevity for awhile. You can also take it more than once, stacking the extra years to your life (this may have errata so don't quote me yet.) It doesn't take away any of the age modifiers, but it can essentially allow your character to live forever. That way you can be human instead, and you wouldn't have to worry about "favored class" issues.