Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kimokeo 01-18-08, 09:28 PM	Your group is a standard set of four 8th level characters. Using only the DMG, PHB, MM, Complete Arcane, Divine, and Warrior... your party enters a very large cavern. It is over 60' high and the size of this cavern is over 200' wide by 300' long. It's not perfectly rectangular but you get the idea. In the center of this room is the treasure and there is, so far, only one way in. A red dragon lives inside this cavern. Because there is no light, this creates the problem. The party can see 60' with darkvision and the rest require light. But, whether it is 60', 40', or 20, no one can see the entire length of this cave. So, how do you work in the dark with your characters in order to fight the dragon. It's darkvision is 120' and it prefers flying and breathing on you.
KyoMamoru 01-18-08, 09:29 PM	What size of a dragon?
Thubby 01-18-08, 09:31 PM	Your group is a standard set of four 8th level characters. Using only the DMG, PHB, MM, Complete Arcane, Divine, and Warrior... your party enters a very large cavern. It is over 60' high and the size of this cavern is over 200' wide by 300' long. It's not perfectly rectangular but you get the idea. In the center of this room is the treasure and there is, so far, only one way in. A red dragon lives inside this cavern. Because there is no light, this creates the problem. The party can see 60' with darkvision and the rest require light. But, whether it is 60', 40', or 20, no one can see the entire length of this cave. So, how do you work in the dark with your characters in order to fight the dragon. It's darkvision is 120' and it prefers flying and breathing on you. daylight spells always works. torches aren't tied to you, light a bunch and throw them around. its a red dragon, spewing fire, readied actions to shoot when it lights itself up works.
Kimokeo 01-18-08, 09:38 PM	It's large. HD unknown. Age unknown. Daylight 60' with the additional 60' dim light. That'll help with the upward view. Torches don't cut it. 20' with an additional 20' shadow. The dragon likes to breathe from above 60'. The Daylight spell helps. 3rd level spell used. Good spell. ok.
kelvinaw273 01-19-08, 07:40 AM	Rule #1: never fight a dragon on IT's terms! Don't fight the dragon in the cavern, lure it into a more confined space where you can surround it. Use traps and snares to entangle it, tie it down. Buff with fire-proof spells WHATEVER you do. Use Daylight and Light spells on arrows and slingstones (you can use lumps of clay in a sling to stick on walls and roof) to light the cavern if you have to, but trust me - lure that dragon some place else if you can!
Chrono Nexus 01-20-08, 04:24 PM	I would steal an item the dragon highly values, and flee. Chances are, the dragon will pursue me out of the cave. If possible, I would try to lure him into a smaller tunnel or into a trap. Alternatively, own something the dragon wants to take.
CryoSilver 01-20-08, 04:26 PM	Summon monster 4 can summon Lantern Archons, which, if they dont shed light, well that's just silly.
StevenO 01-20-08, 04:35 PM	Although they may have trouble "sticking" you could always try lighting up the dragon itself with magic. A spell like Faerie Fire would illuminate the dragon so you'd know where it is and could attack and defend against it normally. Why light up everything else when there is hopefully only one thing you REALLY need to be aware of.
Angus Cotton 01-20-08, 06:53 PM	How big is the actual entrace of the cavern--what is its dimensions?
Lincoln Hills 01-23-08, 04:40 PM	"Uh... I brought you the prisoners, Sire." (Point to the other PCs.) Oh, why not? He can't laugh and breathe fire at the same time, can he?
toucanbuzz 01-23-08, 04:48 PM	Have the donkey pull in the gatling gun and set it up near the entrance. Spray the area until you're out of your first string of ammo. Then send in skirmishers. Errr.... Never fight a dragon in its lair unless you're just plain cocky about your abilities. While you're lighting up the place, he's probably already sensed you and is arranging a defense. Likely he's got another way out. If not, he's in the class of dragons held back several grades for just being dumb as he's holed himself up and allowed folks to just lob crap in the lair. Summoned monsters, clairvoyance, even mage hands to flick some coins might all be a way to "scout" the area. Just don't be surprised if the dragon is on the move.
Angus Cotton 01-23-08, 11:25 PM	If not, he's in the class of dragons held back several grades for just being dumb as he's holed himself up and allowed folks to just lob crap in the lair. And we have all fought this dragon all too often.
Mock26 01-23-08, 11:47 PM	At 8th level I would metagame and get the heck out of there!
Caeric 01-24-08, 08:00 PM	First off, if it were my choice, I would NOT attack that dragon. But assuming you have to... I would suggest getting everyone as vision-capable as possible with the least detriment. You can't fight the thing blind. Second step, you're gonna need to gauge its power to your own. If it seems capable, then maybe you should get a trap set up. Put it somewhere it can't fight you as well in. If it can't fly, it can't evade melees. If you get close, it won't use its breath nearly as much as it will its claws and such. Surround it, and it'll DEFINATELY not use its breath. But it's true for certain that you should never fight a dragon on its own terms. Especially with their keen senses, you'll need to be able to see it.
Mock26 01-24-08, 08:22 PM	Reduce the character with the most hit points, give him an immovable rod, and let him get swallowed by the dragon and then activate the immovable rod. The character can then cut his way out from the soft inside while the rest of the character attack the trapped dragon.
Master_of_Rouges 01-24-08, 08:27 PM	well i would make the dragon disciple who worships the red dragon go in and talk to it. If thats not an option then i would have someone who speaks draconic go in and say he wanted to be a disciple of the red dragon. if that wasnt an option then umm send in the rogue and pray to god he has invisibility potions. and if he doesnt run.
PopcornPirate 01-24-08, 09:22 PM	A group of 8th level whatevers should not even think of attacking a dragon. Unless the DM is a pushover or real easy on them. I personally do not kill charaters unless they do something stupid......... DUH..... Attacking a dragon, in his own lair.........DUH........I hear the stupid bell ringing......Do you?:P
Silverthumb 01-25-08, 12:44 AM	A group of 8th level whatevers should not even think of attacking a dragon. Well, its only a Large dragon, so its obviously fairly young. Its hoard won't be as big, and it shouldn't be the tactical threat that a dragon that's had hundreds of years to build its lair would be. The class variation will be important, but beating the dragon is feasible with planning.
deduke 01-25-08, 06:41 AM	spells are important to beat a dragon. Since you say typical party i assume you have a cleric and an arcane caster. Let the cleric cast mass energy resistance fire, this will give the entire party 20 fire resistance as a third level spell, this will make the breath weapon pretty useless. The arcane caster can cast stoneskin on the big stupid fighter who can then proceed to whack the dragon to pieces. A dragon of this age has a weak breath weapon and decent melee but no spellcasting itself, it should not be very hard to beat.
M-bark 01-25-08, 01:33 PM	Stun or paralyze it in some way, then pull out the immovable rods to pin it down. Then position yourselves as such so that its breath weapon cannot reach you. Pulling a sack over its head would be good, too. After that, since it's helpless due to the immovable rods pinning it down, coup de grace. :P
Mooncalf 01-25-08, 02:32 PM	Get the wizard to learn Improved Invisibility (a lvl 4 spell). Cast it on the rogue. Even though the dragon has Blindsense, he's denied dex against invisible opponents, so the rogue can sneakattack. Ability damage spells can cripple a dragon... keep track of which ones ignore SR, saves, etc. Touch attack spells work fine too, since dragons usually rely on natural armor. (Which means that warlocks have a definite advantage.) Spread out so the breath attack can't hit you all. Recognize what sort of breath it uses; reds have a cone area. Bring cold-based damage, and leave the fire at home. If the wizard only has fire-based spells, something very wrong is with him. Dragons have massive attack combos, and many take the Multiattack feat so they can use their secondary attacks better. Unless you're a definite tank with maxed AC, you should NOT leave yourself within its reach. Make it come to you, so it can make only a bite attack. Reach weapons are great, as is multiple ranks in tumble.
Voran 01-25-08, 05:50 PM	At 8th level I would metagame and get the heck out of there! Winnah. :) My variation would be to reach across the table and whap the DM for making us do this.
Malek2991 01-25-08, 06:31 PM	Stun or paralyze it in some way, then pull out the immovable rods to pin it down. Then position yourselves as such so that its breath weapon cannot reach you. Pulling a sack over its head would be good, too. After that, since it's helpless due to the immovable rods pinning it down, coup de grace. :P just a heads up all creatures of the Dragon type are immune to Stunning and Paralysis so that would not work well. As for advice I would make sure I had a movement rate faster than the slowest character and run like the wind! Seriously a large red dragon ranges from CR 5-10, at level 8 the dragon should be within the range of CR's you can handle. As many people said try to lure the Dragon out of the cave into your own terms, do NOT fight it in a large spread out area (while you'll be less vulnerable to its breath, it can fly around and avoid melee attacks). The good news is a large Red Dragon does not posses either spell resistance or Damage Reduction and thus if you hit it hard and fast with ice spells and melee attacks you should be able to rip it apart. The bad news is unless it is very young it would be able to cast some weak sorcerrer spells against you, if it's smart (and dragons usually are), it will try to use magic to protect it from cold magic.
M-bark 01-26-08, 08:36 AM	just a heads up all creatures of the Dragon type are immune to Stunning and Paralysis so that would not work well. Dragons are immune to magic sleep and paralysis effects, but stunning still works and non-magical sleep and paralysis effects also still work.
Dog_O_War 01-26-08, 11:06 AM	Your group is a standard set of four 8th level characters. Using only the DMG, PHB, MM, Complete Arcane, Divine, and Warrior... your party enters a very large cavern. It is over 60' high and the size of this cavern is over 200' wide by 300' long. It's not perfectly rectangular but you get the idea. In the center of this room is the treasure and there is, so far, only one way in. A red dragon lives inside this cavern. Because there is no light, this creates the problem. The party can see 60' with darkvision and the rest require light. But, whether it is 60', 40', or 20, no one can see the entire length of this cave. So, how do you work in the dark with your characters in order to fight the dragon. It's darkvision is 120' and it prefers flying and breathing on you. Fighter and the cleric fight close to eachother on the dragons' hoard (reds will not under any circumstance breathe on their hoard). The rogue skulks about reasonably close, shortbow at the ready. Meanwhile the wizard waits patiently near the entrance with a clairvoyance spell active. Fighter engages with bow (or harpoon if optimized) until dragon realizes that an enclosed arial battle does not bode well for him. once dragon lands, wizard teleports dimention doors in and rock to mud's the ground the dragon is on (via scroll). Then rogue mud to rock's the same ground (via umd scroll) hopefully encasing a few of the dragon's limbs. Fighter and cleric charge, rogue moves in for SA, battle goes as regular combat with a gimped foe. If dragon isn't caught with this trap, or will not (willfully) decend, then threaten distruction of hoard; wizard teleports in and uses an acid shatter bomb (bag of holding filled with flasks of acid - about 50 or more) and the shatter spell on decended dragon. He (the wizard) should have major fire resitance on, since he'll be the target not on the dragon's hoard. Cold spells and weapons are obvious; if party was aware beforehand of the dragon type, meta scrolls are wise choices. If the dragon is only large, then battle is ruduced to an "easy" encounter with liberal use of tanglefoot bags. The save is something the dragon is in danger of failing, and if he does, he's stuck fast meaning the rogue is striking a very vunerable target, as the fighter is. even with a successful save, he has reduced stats and mobility.
FrostWolf 01-27-08, 02:30 PM	Ballistas at the mouth of the cave. Hide them and lure the thing into a cross fire. Offer half of the red's horde to another (Good) dragon in return for help. Get swallowed, Use Sovereign glue on it's mouth on the way in. Then use an Endless flask of water in it's tummy and hack your way out. Lets see it survive internal drowning after it's stomach heals up. (Make sure you glue the flask in place also.)
Voran 01-27-08, 04:54 PM	Dragons are immune to magic sleep and paralysis effects, but stunning still works and non-magical sleep and paralysis effects also still work. Where's that from? My MM notes (Magic sleep) and Paralysis effects. It doesn't say (magical paralysis).
Mock26 01-27-08, 08:01 PM	I think Larry Elmore summed up perfectly in a drawing an example of a group of 8th level characters who have slain a dragon. Dragon Slayers, by Larry Elmore: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/Mock26/elmore_p012al.jpg
Malek2991 01-27-08, 11:01 PM	Dragons are immune to magic sleep and paralysis effects, but stunning still works and non-magical sleep and paralysis effects also still work. True, but how are you planning on non-magically paralyzing a Dragon? I thought dragons were immune to stunning too, but it looks like I'm wrong.
M-bark 01-28-08, 01:28 PM	True, but how are you planning on non-magically paralyzing a Dragon? I thought dragons were immune to stunning too, but it looks like I'm wrong. Specially prepared poison. :D EDIT: Where's that from? My MM notes (Magic sleep) and Paralysis effects. It doesn't say (magical paralysis). I looked it up again and you're right. I mis-read it as meaning that they are immune to "magic sleep and paralysis effects". But still, specially prepared sleep poison works. :D
Sinis 01-28-08, 05:48 PM	It's large. HD unknown. Age unknown. Daylight 60' with the additional 60' dim light. That'll help with the upward view. Torches don't cut it. 20' with an additional 20' shadow. The dragon likes to breathe from above 60'. The Daylight spell helps. 3rd level spell used. Good spell. ok. Yeargh. Okay, if it's "Large" (that is, 10'x10') the worst case scenario is that it's a Juvenile, and has 16 HD and a pretty low caster level. That's about all the metagaming I'll do in my suggestions. If you can prepare before entering the dragon's lair, you'll stand much better odds. Arcane spellcasters are going to have their work cut out for them in this fight. Basically, you'll want to cast Resist Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) or Protection from Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEnergy.htm) on everyone (pick fire). Scrolls of it or other spells I'm about to mention might also help. Just before the fight, you'll also want to have your melee folks equipped with some ranged weapons, or have Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) ready. You will also want Haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm), Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm) prepared, and as many Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm)s as you can prepare. You may also want Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelmagic.htm) prepared, in case it knows Mage Armour/Shield. Clerics can also help out a bunch with these spells. If it's going to keep the fight at range, Greater Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm) on bows or arrows may be in order.
KruniacZio 01-30-08, 01:41 AM	Smile as the dragon uses Maximize Breath and Clinging Breath feats on the PC's nosey butts, doing not only Maximized damage with its breath weapon (save for half), but also even more the next round. ...Did you mean as the players? Prostrate myself before the dragon, announce that I have brought sacrifices to the Great Red Master, and assist the lizard with annhilating my companions. ...Gawd. Why anyone would kill a red is beyond me. Thats like asking for death.
M-bark 01-30-08, 02:24 AM	...Gawd. Why anyone would kill a red is beyond me. Thats like asking for death. Not unless you're character levels equal their HD. Then you can kick their ass all the way to Tiamat and beyond!
KruniacZio 01-30-08, 02:56 PM	Not unless you're character levels equal their HD. Then you can kick their ass all the way to Tiamat and beyond! I dont know about all that - Tiamat scares me :D
M-bark 01-30-08, 03:40 PM	I dont know about all that - Tiamat scares me :D Well, a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon (strongest core dragon, as well as one of the most powerful official dragons - epic monsters not included) is CR 27, meaning that a party of 4 PCs of level 27 would spend 20% of their resources as they try to defeat it. The Great Wyrm Gold Dragon also has 41 HD. If one character of a character level equal to that dragon's HD would fight it (so the character is of character level 41), it would easily dispose of the Great Wyrm. Now I don't know Tiamat's stats, but she's, what, an intermediate deity? A deity typically is an outsider of 20 HD (which Tiamat is not), and with an extra 30-50 class levels on top of that (30 for the weakest, 50 for the strongest, for a total character level of 50-80. If you'd assume Tiamat to have 20 racial HD and 30 class levels, with a party of four characters of levels into the fourties, and with appropriate equipment, I think you would stand a fair chance against her if you wouldn't be in her personal demiplane. Of course, I wouldn't bet anything on that. :D
CrimsonDeath 01-30-08, 04:41 PM	Tiamat has about 49 Dragon HD (in comparison to Bahamut's 53). But pretty much any deity has a lot of scary abilities (including Domain spells at will, which for Tiamat includes Implosion and Time Stop). Plus, Tiamat has five heads. Each head can bite, breathe, or use a spell-like ability independently, and although she can only cast one non-Quickened spell each round, that spell only takes one head's action. In case it matters, even her Avatar (which has a Divine Rank of only 5) has no listed CR in "Deities and Demigods".