Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Old_One 09-08-05, 08:18 AM	Ok I am a DM, but wouldlike to get some PC perspective here. I took over ou curent campagin (FR) from someone else (a curent player). The prior DM alowed a custom feat that alowed our fighter to use 2 bastard swords (Two Wepon fighting style). Yeas thats true the guy charges in weilding two bastard swords with only -2/-2 peneltys. Normaly I wouldn't have any problems just taking the ofending feat out back and shoot it in the haed, but as it is the fighter has alerady devoleped a character around that trait. He seas himself (the character not the player) as his gods wepon of destruction. And a wepon of destruction he is, especealy when the wizard got enlarge person. Now he is able to destroy 150hp monsters with 2 crits. And now the questio (finaly): What can I give him in return of the 2 feats I will take away? See he took a feat wich is just a prerequsit. I wan't him to keep his characters "wepon of mass destruction" feal but I can't keep maikin 200hp monters for him to kill while the rest of the party bufs him and does very little less.
Warchicken 09-08-05, 08:34 AM	There is a feat in Complete Adventurer: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting that allows a character to weild two one-handed weapons without the normal penalties to do so. The only prereq is Two-Weapon Fighting. Of course with the Bastard Swords there's the EWP and STR 13 to take in account, but I doubt that's a problem. If you have to replace the offending feat with a legit one from the Complete Series.
jasper 09-08-05, 09:08 AM	prior dm are the magic words here. You could be very very nice and allow this pc to keep the feat but allow no others to pick up. I would only do this is if the game is beer and preztels type game. Have either drop the feat and rework the pc is what I would do.
konrad_the_tall 09-08-05, 09:13 AM	Thats just stupid. slap him upsid ehis head IC. chop off one of his arms and refuse to allow a spell to heal it.
ShadowDragon8685 09-08-05, 09:23 AM	First off, ignore Konrad, who is ~100% likely to be a troll. Secondly, there's nothing wrong with dual-wielding bastard swords. They are not light weapons, so apply the usual penalties for wielding two weapons that are not light. But it can be done.
lonesoldier 09-08-05, 09:24 AM	To answer the OPs original question: If you find that a certain combination of classes/feats/templates/whatever is being highly disruptive to your game, try to talk to the player and the entire party. If everything is as you say it is, the other players will feel undervalued. Is the player competant and mature? If so, he will understand that he cannot be in the spotlight all the time and that everyone else is not enjoy this as much as he is. OTOH, you could make encounters that are: 1) Roleplaying only 2) Traps 3) Riddles/Puzzles/etc
Salla 09-08-05, 10:00 AM	Well, let's see. First, I would recommend NOT taking feats away; however, do tell people that you're finding that combination to be overpowered, so you won't be permitting that feat on *future* characters. Second, so what if he busts up monsters with crits? Crits make anybody bust up monsters; if they're happening that frequently that he seems to always crit, check his dice (his threat range is only 17-20 if he has improved critical, so he crits less than 20% of the time), or use more monsters that aren't susceptible to critical hits like Elementals, Oozes, and Undead, or things that fly or can otherwise keep their distance. Third, don't worry about smashing him up with bigger monsters. If he's a fighter (and it sounds like he is), just throw a Dominate on him and have him attack his party of otherwise waste his time. More information might be helpful, though ... what level is this guy? What level is the rest of the party? Are the swords magical? What CR of monster are you throwing at them (in general)?
Phrennzy 09-08-05, 10:13 AM	One more time, for emphasis: To answer the OPs original question: If you find that a certain combination of classes/feats/templates/whatever is being highly disruptive to your game, try to talk to the player and the entire party. Communication is key. Explain your misgivings. See his reaction, and go from there.
Gurthoron 09-08-05, 10:19 AM	Umm, the fact he is dual-wielding Bastard swords is not your problem. That is an average of 2 damage more than a bastard/short sword dual wielder (And that is per two strikes). And that bastard/short would have an extra feat. I'd let him have the feat, because it is far from overpowering. Hell, I play dual-wielding characters often, and I wouldn't bother taking that feat. What you need to look at is the other things adding into damage. You need to remember a couple things with dual wielders. 1.) They only get 1 attack on the charge or if they move. The exception is the Tempest class and the feat from CA that gives you 2 attacks, at a hideous negative to hit. 2.) The off hand weapon only gains 1/2 Str as a bonus to damage. Now with that in mind, take a look at the guys damage tables. If everything is legit, then you change up the encounters. An easy way is just giving critters max HP per HD. My DM often gives creatures bonus hit points to keep the fight going. Change up encounters he can't just end in a round of hits. (incoporeal, flying, etc.) Good luck.
Sir Knight 09-08-05, 12:35 PM	Well, wielding two Bastard Swords is completely allowable in Core Rules. They wouldn't be light weapons so assuming he is proficient (EWP) and has TWF, he would be at a -4/-4 penalty to attack. The other feats, just tell him to pick something else with them and you're done (I mean, he spent two feats to get -4/-4 to -2/-2 right?). Suggest Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword and other feats like that. No problem here. Problem I'm having is that in Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2 there is a feat that allows you to weild TWO-HANDED weapons in one hand and I have a player who wants me to incorporate that feat and be able to use TWO Greataxes!!! That would be too much and I won't allow it. I thought that is the problem you're having but 2 Bastard Swords isn't a problem at all.
MSW 09-08-05, 12:36 PM	Third, don't worry about smashing him up with bigger monsters. If he's a fighter (and it sounds like he is), just throw a Dominate on him and have him attack his party of otherwise waste his time.This is a particularlly useful tactic to show the other players just how unbalanced the character is. A lot of players won't care, since he kills the bad guys easier, and then they all split up the treasure/rewards afterwards... so they may actually help the player defend his right to keep said combination of WoMD feats and weapons. But Dominate him and have him unleash that havok on their own characters... that can change their minds real fast, and have them see your point of view.
weasel fierce 09-08-05, 12:47 PM	If his character is developed around the fact that he has 2 big swords, he doesnt have much of a character, so no worry. Just give him something reasonably equivalent, and explain that you tried out the feat he has, and realized you didnt like it.
Beamup 09-08-05, 12:48 PM	A DM taking away my feats, or doing anything else arbitrary to an already-existing character, I would scream bloody murder about. See, the critical mistake you're making is that you're deciding what you the DM will do. That's the wrong question. What you need to ask is what you and the player will do. Talk with him, discuss it, and work out a mutually acceptable solution. Doing anything vaguely like that arbitrarily will cause massive in-group friction. DM fiat should always be the absolute last resort. (Unless it's something that comes unexpectedly in the middle of a game and it's the only way to keep the game moving.)
weasel fierce 09-08-05, 01:05 PM	If it was something in a core book, I'd be a little less gung ho about it, but even the most liberal DM has no obligation to allow things that another DM made up, in his game.
Mirage_1 09-08-05, 02:00 PM	Is this actually causing any problems? The big question is whether he outshines the other characters. As long as everyone is having fun...who cares?
ProtoClone 09-08-05, 02:09 PM	Ok I am a DM, but wouldlike to get some PC perspective here. I took over ou curent campagin (FR) from someone else (a curent player). The prior DM alowed a custom feat that alowed our fighter to use 2 bastard swords (Two Wepon fighting style). Yeas thats true the guy charges in weilding two bastard swords with only -2/-2 peneltys. Normaly I wouldn't have any problems just taking the ofending feat out back and shoot it in the haed, but as it is the fighter has alerady devoleped a character around that trait. He seas himself (the character not the player) as his gods wepon of destruction. And a wepon of destruction he is, especealy when the wizard got enlarge person. Now he is able to destroy 150hp monsters with 2 crits. And now the questio (finaly): What can I give him in return of the 2 feats I will take away? See he took a feat wich is just a prerequsit. I wan't him to keep his characters "wepon of mass destruction" feal but I can't keep maikin 200hp monters for him to kill while the rest of the party bufs him and does very little less. I would have to agree with many other people here that taking the feat away right now would be crappy. There are several ways around this though. 1) Throw harder encounters at them. Just because it says the creature has 150 hit points in the book doesn't mean it has to have that much. What you see in the book when it comes to encounters are the basics. It's up to you to adjust the encounter to fit the party. This leads me to #2... 2) Let the party know that because of Mr. Uber-guy you have to adjust the party encounter level to compensate for the difficulty of Slash-o-matic. 3) This one I wouldn't recommend but it might work: Tell the party that if you don't get into the fight you don't get XP. Buffing Slash-o-matic does not count or counts to a much lower amount of XP then normally allowed. Also running up and hitting the encounter once then running away would also reward the PC with a lower amount of XP then normal. So if Slash-o-matic gets all the kills, he gets the XP or most of it. Yes this ends up benefitting the player you want to tone down. But it also makes the party realise how unbalanced he is. To take from an example of something my old group went through our DM did this. In all encounters he threw something at our uber-player to tie him up and then created an encounter for the rest of the party to handle on their own.
spectralphoenix 09-08-05, 02:31 PM	I checked the Complete Adventurer, and there is the oversized two weapon fighting feat. The only requirements are two-weapon fighting, which only a moron would not take if he planned on fighting with two weapons, and 13 STR, which he almost certainly has if he's doing too much damage. (At this point, the munchkin in me wants to say that there is no such thing as too much damage.) You mentioned that there was a prerequisite for the DM-given feat. If it was something that the character would not have taken on his own, the oversized two weapon fighting feat is actually a better feat than what he's using. Does the character have rogue levels? I doubt it from the "living weapon" perspective, but a rogue with two weapons, a decent sneak attack, and flanking will do ridiculous amounts of damage. I know, because I once made a twin bastard sword wielding rogue. What I would do in your case is this: (1) Check his math. As mentioned, he only gets 1/2 STR bonus with his off hand, and there are many other places where he could be messing up his attacks and damage. Check to make sure all of the buff spells hes getting stack. (2) Check his ability scores. Different DM's allow different methods of ability generation. I once joined a group and upon showing them my character, was greeted with "What? No 18's?" (3) Talk to the other players. If they spend all of their time buffing him, he will do most of the damage, between the buffs and their inaction. (4) Try using different encounters that his attacks are not as effective against, and hope this makes the other characters realize they need to step up to the plate. I would recommend a clay golem or a wizard with Fly, Clairavoyance, and Obscuring Mist. (5) If all else fails, just toughen up the encounters until they seem a reasonable challenge. ProtoClone's ultimatum is also a possibility
Solik 09-08-05, 02:38 PM	This is not a big deal. As stated, this feat exists validly in CW. Moreover, if you use the Goliath race, then those bastard swords could both be Large with absolutely no penalty whatsoever (except the +1 LA for the race). I suspect the actual problem is that the characters were rolled using powerful builds. What's this character's STR score? If it's extremely high, then he's hitting very often and getting massive bonuses to damage. That's what's hurting you, not the feat. Just imagine if he were using Power Attack, too. What you need to do is start getting creative with your encounters so that simple tactics like this don't dominate the game. Use more incorporeal creatures. Throw rust monsters at him. Use dominates to turn him against his party. Give enemies a significant terrain advantage and ranged weapons; he'll start missing that shield real quick. If a high-point build was used to create these characters, then your only option is to significantly boost all of the enemies. You'll probably want to focus on the defense of enemies instead of their offense (since I suspect your players have high damage ability but low damage thresholds). Boost the AC of everything by 4. Add additional HP, or provide DR. You should avoid taking away feats unless it's something that's just too drastic. In a campaign I ran, we tried to use the D20 Ultimate Feats book. One player found a feat that lets him use 1.5x his str bonus for attack rolls as well as damage rolls. That, stacking with weapon focus and so forth, meant he was never missing with a two-handed weapon and dealing massive damage. We talked about it, and agreed to reduce it to a +1 static bonus. But, that was a foreign feat; not something that actually does exist in the books.
l33t Shinobi 09-08-05, 02:54 PM	i gotta agree with beamup, if you make an arbitrary descion to take his shiz away, itll break 4th wall and besides that, mess up the party. also try to avoid heavy handed stuff, like a perfectly cast disjunction or a conviniently hidden rust monster, which would tip your hand to he player. personally, i would use illusions to distarct their hitter, then massive AoE on their group; but a dominate would always work, or hold person in short, just try to disable thier hitter, and make the party see its imbalance, but even by the RAW aslong as you allow the complete, and thats just really basic rules...
Twisted Puppy 09-08-05, 02:56 PM	I don't think there is any obligation on the part of the current DM to allow the feat. I do think it's a bit of a stretch. However, there is a way to do away with the feat in a way which will actually benefit the player in question. 1) Tell the player that you have looked carefully at the feat, and have decided that it is a bit out of balance. So, ask him to please select another feat, because you are going to 2) change one of his bastard swords to a Sun Blade, which will enable him to fight just as he was. Considering he will have an additional feat, maybe even better. This will avoid any future arguments over one player having a feat which others can't take, without doing anything detrimental to the character.
Murrdox 09-08-05, 04:08 PM	You guys who don't think this two-bastard-sword weilder is broken haven't played with one before. They can be completely game breaking. The one MY player developed had the "Monkey Grip" feat I think it is called, which allows you to grasp a 2-handed weapon with one hand. Then it was simply a matter of Improved Critical with the Bastard Sword, and a combination of other feats. The character turned into a whirlwind of death which I could not reasonably challenge. About the only thing I could do was use different types of Mind Control on him, but if I did, it threatened a total party wipe, because the other members of his party couldn't handle him even if they all teamed up on him. His equipment wasn't any more powerful than anyone else in the group. Fortunately this game didn't last too long, we only had about 4 playing sessions with it, before certain players couldn't continue, and we had to stop the campaign. He did ridiculous amounts of damage in an incredibly short period of time. All he needed was Enlarge, and Haste cast on him, and it was just really, really DUMB how disgusting he became. I think you should politely talk to the player and work out some kind of comprimise.
Gurthoron 09-08-05, 04:21 PM	You guys who don't think this two-bastard-sword weilder is broken haven't played with one before. They can be completely game breaking. The one MY player developed had the "Monkey Grip" feat I think it is called, which allows you to grasp a 2-handed weapon with one hand. Then it was simply a matter of Improved Critical with the Bastard Sword, and a combination of other feats. The character turned into a whirlwind of death which I could not reasonably challenge. About the only thing I could do was use different types of Mind Control on him, but if I did, it threatened a total party wipe, because the other members of his party couldn't handle him even if they all teamed up on him. His equipment wasn't any more powerful than anyone else in the group. Fortunately this game didn't last too long, we only had about 4 playing sessions with it, before certain players couldn't continue, and we had to stop the campaign. He did ridiculous amounts of damage in an incredibly short period of time. All he needed was Enlarge, and Haste cast on him, and it was just really, really DUMB how disgusting he became. I think you should politely talk to the player and work out some kind of comprimise. Why does dual-wielding bastard sword grant him that much more damage? Ignoring on-hand weaponry, the short sword is a typical off-hand choice for damage with a light weapon. That means he does 2 less damage with his off hand than someone using the bastard sword, but has an extra feat. I would take the feat and invest in something better than a miserable 2 damage. You enlarge the guy, and the difference is greatsword compared to longsword. Damage difference on average goes down to 1.5. As for haste, it only grants you an extra attack with your primary weapon, not both. These people should be statistically doing only 2 more points of damage than a dual-wielder using a bastard and a shortsword, or 3 points than a long and short sword wielder. Plus those people would have more feats. That couple points of damage and the feats are the ONLY DIFFERENCE between the two wielding choices. Thus, by the account here, dual wielding itself is the problem and is overpowered. I do not believe this is so, so then it must be something up with the characters or the way they are being calculated. If you would like, post the stats and I could number crunch for you to make sure what the player is using is right. Don't blame the bastard swords. They are not the cause of this hideous extra damage.
MoogleEmpMog 09-08-05, 04:32 PM	You guys who don't think this two-bastard-sword weilder is broken haven't played with one before. They can be completely game breaking. The one MY player developed had the "Monkey Grip" feat I think it is called, which allows you to grasp a 2-handed weapon with one hand. Then it was simply a matter of Improved Critical with the Bastard Sword, and a combination of other feats. The character turned into a whirlwind of death which I could not reasonably challenge. About the only thing I could do was use different types of Mind Control on him, but if I did, it threatened a total party wipe, because the other members of his party couldn't handle him even if they all teamed up on him. His equipment wasn't any more powerful than anyone else in the group. Fortunately this game didn't last too long, we only had about 4 playing sessions with it, before certain players couldn't continue, and we had to stop the campaign. He did ridiculous amounts of damage in an incredibly short period of time. All he needed was Enlarge, and Haste cast on him, and it was just really, really DUMB how disgusting he became. I think you should politely talk to the player and work out some kind of comprimise. I'm sorry to hear that you couldn't challenge the sub-optimal dual-bastard sword wielder. It does not logically follow that he wasn't sub-optimal. He didn't even use greatswords with Monkey Grip? :eek: EXAMPLE 1 Monkey Grip, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting attack: -2 penalty from TWF, -2 penalty from Monkey Grip damage: 2d6+s/2d6+.5s EXAMPLE 2 Power Attack attack: -x penalty, determined each round by the player damage: 2d6 + 2x + 1.5s If we assume x = 4 (Power Attack for 4) and s = 4 (18 Str), EXAMPLE 1 does an average of 20 damage with a full attack, and EXAMPLE 2 does an average of 21. Now, EXAMPLE 1 benefits more from other sources of damage (like magical plusses or sneak attack) - but either quickly overshadows the damage his greatsword does over a short sword. He needs to spend more feats (Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting) to remain competitive even then. EXAMPLE 2 benefits mostly from extra Strength. On the flip side, he can adjust his Power Attack to suit the needs of the moment, going as low as no Power Attack or as high as his BAB. If EXAMPLE 2 sticks with Power Attack for 4 to match EXAMPLE 1's penalty, the latter eventually, at the cost of four feats, a lot of versatility and some extra gp, outstrips his damage potential. Outside an antimagic zone, of course. Enlarge changes it to 27 for EXAMPLE 1 vs. 27.5 for EXAMPLE 2 - at the cost of a spell in addition to two feats, later four. And EXAMPLE 2 is still more versatile.
makeshiftwings 09-08-05, 04:48 PM	If I were a PC, and the DM wanted to take away something that was important style-wise to my character (like my weapons of choice), and claimed it was because it was "broken", when I knew full well that I could do more damage with other weapons, I would be pretty angry. I would much prefer, in the case of the OP and Murrdox, if the DM just said to me "Hey, your character seems way too powerful compared to everyone else and it doesn't seem fair." Then, he, I, and the other players would all try to come to an agreement on whether or not this was true, and work on a solution that was the best for all of us. Ideally, rather than purposely trying to make a weak character, I'd offer to help the other PCs figure out how to play their characters a little better and offer some advice to the DM as to what my character's weaknesses were. If the DM instead just said "No, I know the rules best, you lose your feats, also bastard swords now only do 1d4 and you need three hands to weild them," I would either leave the game, or, first make a super-abusive greatsword weilder just to show that they are more powerful, and then leave the game.
20goingon1232 09-08-05, 04:51 PM	You guys who don't think this two-bastard-sword weilder is broken haven't played with one before. They can be completely game breaking. The one MY player developed had the "Monkey Grip" feat I think it is called, which allows you to grasp a 2-handed weapon with one hand. Then it was simply a matter of Improved Critical with the Bastard Sword, and a combination of other feats. The character turned into a whirlwind of death which I could not reasonably challenge. About the only thing I could do was use different types of Mind Control on him, but if I did, it threatened a total party wipe, because the other members of his party couldn't handle him even if they all teamed up on him. His equipment wasn't any more powerful than anyone else in the group. Fortunately this game didn't last too long, we only had about 4 playing sessions with it, before certain players couldn't continue, and we had to stop the campaign. He did ridiculous amounts of damage in an incredibly short period of time. All he needed was Enlarge, and Haste cast on him, and it was just really, really DUMB how disgusting he became. I think you should politely talk to the player and work out some kind of comprimise. This has been done to death math-wise. TWF + ITWF +GTWF + EWP(BS) do less damage than GS + PA when you take into account to-hit penalties. That is all there is to it. Period. I up TWF abilities in games I DM. For 4 feats and a penalty to hit, it had better give me better damage than just 1 feat. You haven't seen a 60+ hp hit with a dwarven waraxe at level 7, have you? Critical? Oh, definitely! Does the wizard that got hit by that care? Heck no! DM ruling was that the mage did a NWN and just exploded all over the place. Very messy. And the spell used? Enlarge Person. What did the dwarf have? +1 Waraxe. What was the dwarf wearing? Breastplate +1, heavy shield +1. Her Str was 16 (18 after Enlarge). That's it (DM was kinda stingy with gear). She didn't even bother with Power Attack. Buff the tank works. That is called teamwork. It is what DnD is all about. It seems that some DMs don't like that and prefer that everyone play gishes or some ridiculous multi-class combos that allow them to do every iconic role. Or they get upset. You will so hate my transmutation/enchantment sorceror...
BeyondFated 09-08-05, 04:56 PM	You guys who don't think this two-bastard-sword weilder is broken haven't played with one before. They can be completely game breaking. The one MY player developed had the "Monkey Grip" feat I think it is called, which allows you to grasp a 2-handed weapon with one hand. Then it was simply a matter of Improved Critical with the Bastard Sword, and a combination of other feats. The character turned into a whirlwind of death which I could not reasonably challenge. About the only thing I could do was use different types of Mind Control on him, but if I did, it threatened a total party wipe, because the other members of his party couldn't handle him even if they all teamed up on him. His equipment wasn't any more powerful than anyone else in the group. Fortunately this game didn't last too long, we only had about 4 playing sessions with it, before certain players couldn't continue, and we had to stop the campaign. He did ridiculous amounts of damage in an incredibly short period of time. All he needed was Enlarge, and Haste cast on him, and it was just really, really DUMB how disgusting he became. I think you should politely talk to the player and work out some kind of comprimise. I am a dual-bastardsword wielding fighter, and I still can't do the damage that the cleric, wizard, and archer-build-rouge deal. It's only game breaking in a low PC power game, which is obviously what you play (though there's nothing wrong with that). It's not a bad build by any means, in fact its one of my favorite builds, but its far from the best out there. Also, we suffer from the same things that other TWF builds do, things like Damage Reduction. Anyway, to the OP, just replace the feat with OTWF, and your golden. Just challenge him by throwing monsters with a moderate DR, and he's suddenly not such a machine of doom anymore. also: Why does dual-wielding bastard sword grant him that much more damage? Ignoring on-hand weaponry, the short sword is a typical off-hand choice for damage with a light weapon. That means he does 2 less damage with his off hand than someone using the bastard sword, but has an extra feat. I would take the feat and invest in something better than a miserable 2 damage I disagree. For that extra feat, OTWF, we from then on only need to spend one feat on our weapons of choice instead of two. I.E. we only need Wep Spec., Wep. Focus, Imp. Wep Spec, Imp. Wep Focus, and Imp. Crit once. To get all those, you effectivly need to spend twice as many feats, once for your main weapon, and once for your off. You could ignore your off weapon, but that would make it almost useless in the long run.
feartheinvinceblehamster 09-08-05, 05:00 PM	if i was the player, i would probably just make a new character
Merestil Haye 09-08-05, 05:38 PM	If you were going to take that feat away from him, you should have done it at the first session - it's too late now. Besides, as others have pointed out, Oversized 2-Weapon Fighting does the same job. One thing I will address though.The one MY player developed had the "Monkey Grip" feat I think it is called, which allows you to grasp a 2-handed weapon with one hand. Then it was simply a matter of Improved Critical with the Bastard Sword, and a combination of other feats.Monkey Grip worked like this in 3.0. It does not work that way in 3.5. In 3.5 Monkey Grip allows you to wield a weapon made for someone one size larger than you are with the same amount of effort at a -2 penalty. So it does not allow you to wield a bastard sword 1 handed. The feat that does that is called Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). It would allow you to wield a Large longsword in one hand (which has the same game stats as a Medium Greatsword but is probably harder to come by) - and you cannot use such a weapon in your off hand. So no dual wielding Large longswords. Using oversized TWF does has one other advantage over the normal state of affairs; any Power Attack damage bonus will apply in full to the off-hand weapon. Probably the best way to challenge him is throwing him encounters with DR he cannot beat, things which Dominate him (hint to the party; Magic Circles do prevent the domination from working when he's close up) and things which hurt him badly; Things with trip, Hold the Line and reach, then watch him go flat on his face and never get an attack.
SwiftFox 09-08-05, 07:50 PM	To those who think the CONCEPT of wielding a bastard-sword in each hand at merely light-offhand penalties is overpowered... Consider the Gythka, an exotic weapon from the expanded psionics handbook, a thri-kreen weapon. It does D10 damage and is a double weapon. If this guy is wielding even one bastard sword one handed, hes taken an exotic weapon feat to do so, so one exotic weapon is as good as another. The drawback in using a gythka is it only does a x2 crit, but on the upside you can wield it as a two-handed weapon when you can only make a single attack, ie. on a charge. So whats the big deal in accomplishing EXACTLY the same thing with bastard swords instead, and oh, spending an extra feat to do so? bunch of crybabies. Besides, the 'complete' series of books allows it, and theyre completely legitimate WOTC D&D suppliments.
Tedly224 09-08-05, 08:38 PM	If I were the player and the DM wished for me to change the character, I'd hear him out as to what his point was and then consider my alternatives available to the character if was I to make the change. The first thing I would say to the DM would be " I already built the character around this concept, including feat choices and attribute adjustments from leveling involving it. Also, I made magic item selection choices and sales/purchases involving this route, because I was allowed to use it at the time. Could I rework my character to build towards a different fighting style that you do approve of? " At that point, with me being reasonable about it the DM would more or less have to. So I'd go the 2 handed weapon route, take less dex, have more strength, and save on feats and take Power attack, Cleave, and maybe Combat Reflexes as well. But in responding to the question as a general thing, I'd say " Sure. " as a player as long as the DM is willing to take a look at things from my point of view as the player. If the DM is out to screw the player over, I'd walk. If the DM is out to compromise with the character, then that's a different situation.
20goingon1232 09-08-05, 11:20 PM	To those who think the CONCEPT of wielding a bastard-sword in each hand at merely light-offhand penalties is overpowered... Consider the Gythka, an exotic weapon from the expanded psionics handbook, a thri-kreen weapon. It does D10 damage and is a double weapon. If this guy is wielding even one bastard sword one handed, hes taken an exotic weapon feat to do so, so one exotic weapon is as good as another. The drawback in using a gythka is it only does a x2 crit, but on the upside you can wield it as a two-handed weapon when you can only make a single attack, ie. on a charge. So whats the big deal in accomplishing EXACTLY the same thing with bastard swords instead, and oh, spending an extra feat to do so? bunch of crybabies. Besides, the 'complete' series of books allows it, and theyre completely legitimate WOTC D&D suppliments. Be glad. The Gythka used to be a 2d6 double weapon. Which means that you are dual wielding two Greatswords at -2/-2. I'd agree with the cry-baby comment. Some people just like to yell OVERPOWERED! or BROKEN! at the drop of a hat without actually considering the situation first. I mean, 2 crits on the same guy and he is yelling overpowered. Nevermind the CRITS. He had OTWF. That MUST be the problem. Screw the crits. They mean nothing. Can you imagine how much MORE damage the monster would have taken if that was a double crit with a Scythe and Power Attack? 150 hps? Pfft! I can see the "Scythe is OVERPOWERED and it is only a MARTIAL WEAPON!!!!!!" screams already or "TWO-HANDED WEAPONS are OVERPOWERED!!!!" Seriously. Does it give people some sort of gratification to yell out those two words?
Maerdash 09-08-05, 11:56 PM	Ok first off talk to the player, because if you just told me you were yanking a couple of my feats without talking to me I would most likely go find a new dm. Next. The dual wielding bast. swords is a joke its inferior in many, many ways. Lets take a look at something that can be truly nasty (though I don't consider it broken by any means) A spell sword (complete warrior) with the class ability channel spell, using a spell storing scythe, and the channel spell ability. The scythe contains a maximized (using a rod of maximization) scorching ray caster level 11, the spell channeled shall also be a maximized scorching ray at caster level 11. Ok the character scores a hit and deals average damage 5pts (scythe)+6 pts(18 str) + 144 (two maximized scorching rays) =155 points of damage. now lets say that was a crit 155 x 4 = 620 points of damage.
Bopple 09-09-05, 12:22 AM	1. Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting gives you avg. +2 damage boost. One of good feats, but far from overpowered, since TWF itself is not powerful, in the first place. 2. 150 damage on 2 crits? It's very easy to do that amount of damage with crits, when using a 2H weapon. But with TWF, crits don't add much damage. I think your critical rule is different, or his other custom feat or weapon is unbalanced. Of course it depends on your lvl. At high level, TWF can dish out such amount of damage easily. 3. It's good to adjust feats to make them balanced, compared to 3.5 change. It's BAD to remove feats during the campaign.
Bopple 09-09-05, 12:24 AM	Spell storing weapon can contain spells of 3rd lvl or lower. As Maximized Scorching Ray is 4th lvl, you cannot put it in a spell-storing weapon. Spell damage on top of weapon, is extra dice. Even if maximized, it's still extra dice on maximized roll. As such, it doesn't get multiplied by crit.
Maerdash 09-09-05, 01:13 AM	Spell storing weapon can contain spells of 3rd lvl or lower. As Maximized Scorching Ray is 4th lvl, you cannot put it in a spell-storing weapon. Spell damage on top of weapon, is extra dice. Even if maximized, it's still extra dice on maximized roll. As such, it doesn't get multiplied by crit. Well first off a MAXIMIZED scorching ray is a 5th level spell not a 4th, thats empowered, second read the rules for metamagic rods, they apply the effects of the feat without adjusting the spell level so there is where you get the spell into the spellstoring weapon( didn't I already say this?) Third spell damage on top of dice is extra damage, well I could see some people ruling it that way, but my WotC books say that weapon like spells can crit, ergo when you roll a crit with a weapon and a weapon like spell they both crit. Just my understanding of the rules.
King_Bulba 09-09-05, 03:40 AM	OMG let the man keep his homebrewed feat! This homebrew feat is the equilivent of oversized two weapon fighting, just have him rename it to OTWF if you must. This isnt overpowered as others have said, if you want overpowered then go the power attacking monkey grip greatsword route. It will do MUCH more damage. Your problem isnt with the feat, it's with high str melee builds. All I can say is that throw monsters from time to time that the warrior is weak to, try to balance things so the casters can be the heros of the party too. The others have given you some good options I would try them. GL
King_Bulba 09-09-05, 03:49 AM	Spell storing weapon can contain spells of 3rd lvl or lower. As Maximized Scorching Ray is 4th lvl, you cannot put it in a spell-storing weapon. Ummm sudden maximize doesn't raise its spell level, nor does a rod... The question if the spell damage is multiplied, is an interesting question. Im not sure what RAW would say. Ray spells can have critcals, if the sword hit a vulerable spot then why wouldn't the ray that shoots off the sword not hit the same spot and thus do more damage, but that's logic and we all know RAW doesnt always follow logic.
Old_One 09-09-05, 04:14 AM	Wow ... just wow. I did not expect this amount of responses. Gues now I'll have to reply to them all? Ok for those asking waht lvl and stats they have: They are now mostly 8th to 10th lvl, the stats are all roled and yes the guy in question got an 18. He has all the feats for his bastards (WF, WS, IC etc). He does use power atack. His equpment is on par with everyone elses. For those of you mentioning the OTWF feat from CW: Thank you for pointing it out, now that I am aware of it I'll probably keep thing as they are. My rulings are always based on what I can find in the books. Somehow I have faith that if someone like WotC prints them they know what they are doing (yeah right :rolleyes: ) For those mentioning how much more dmg he would be doing with another build, and how underpowered the 2 bastard swords are: I don't want to go into a math contest on this matter. My post was made becouse I felt this build is disrupting my game and that he is overshadowng my players (primerly the other fighter). The conclusion: I'll most likely wont touch the feats (he did scream bloody murder when I brought it up yesterday :) ), but I WILL make the party feel that havoc (Feel the pain :evillaugh: )
ShadowDragon8685 09-09-05, 05:40 AM	Old_One, this is the inevitable outcome of one person being competent in the mathematics of D&D, and the others not being as much so. You, as a DM, however, reacted poorly when your thought was to whip out the Nerf Stick. You don't nerf this guy. He got his schtick fair and square. What you DO have to do is boost the other players. Give the other Fighter a Weapon of Legacy or something. Sure, the other guy is a two-bastard slaughtermachine, but he is the chosen of Exordius, the sword redeemed! Or something along those lines. If you want to be really technical, examine 2BS's build on a damage/round basis, examine what non-2BS's damage/round is, and create a Weapon of Legacy specifically designed to boost non-2BS's damage to an equal rate. PS: DON'T engineer a situation in which the rest of the party has to kill or incapcitate 2BS before he kills them. That will only create bad blood.
Sapp 09-09-05, 05:57 AM	Don't punish the fighter just yet. Make sure it is really him that's over-powered and not that the other party members aren't being productive/creative/active enough. I sit through enough games where some guy just sits there, doesn't talk, and once in a while realizes that he should be doing knowledge checks after he's been told to do so by his allies or even when the DM nudges him. This is when he's the 20+ Intelligence wizard or psion. He should not have the right to complain. If he's not being active, that's his own problem. The rest of the players are doing nothing but buffing him up. It sounds like they acknowledge and accept him as the tank of the party for straight up battles. There are other challenges besides monsters, ones that a fighter can't handle. Think about it. If the players are playing like vegetables, the simplest character concepts will shine. Fighters are relatively simple in concept, and show their strengths in a simple manner: they fight. Other classes take more effort, and if the players aren't willing to put in that effort, they shouldn't expect to outshown the (very basic/simple) fighter.
q'afuu 09-09-05, 07:32 AM	They are now mostly 8th to 10th lvl, the stats are all roled and yes the guy in question got an 18. He has all the feats for his bastards (WF, WS, IC etc). He does use power atack. His equpment is on par with everyone elses. So he got an 18, big deal. Unless he got a 17 on top of that, he'll need to put that 18 in Dex to qualify for ITWF. He's still at -2 for dual-wielding, and he can only Power Attack on a 1-for-1 basis. I know you said you don't want to go into a math contest and that the simple fact that this character is disrupting your game is enough for you to want to act on it. That's fine, that's an excellent reason. But honestly, if the issue is that this character is overshadowing another fighter I can see only three reasons: something's off with how the damage is calculated, the pcs have too much gear, or the other fighter is seriously suboptimal (and maybe rolled lesser stats to begin with). I'm fairly sure it's option n° 3.
Bopple 09-09-05, 07:47 AM	Well first off a MAXIMIZED scorching ray is a 5th level spell not a 4th, thats empowered, My bad. Worked all through the night. second read the rules for metamagic rods, they apply the effects of the feat without adjusting the spell level so there is where you get the spell into the spellstoring weapon( didn't I already say this?) Hmm... I've always thought metamagic rod removes your effort only. But as RAW, you seem right. Third spell damage on top of dice is extra damage, well I could see some people ruling it that way, but my WotC books say that weapon like spells can crit, ergo when you roll a crit with a weapon and a weapon like spell they both crit. Just my understanding of the rules. I think it should be treated as extra dice, not as a weapon. But even if you treat it as a weapon, its crit multiplier is x2, not x4.
MSW 09-09-05, 04:32 PM	He did ridiculous amounts of damage in an incredibly short period of time. All he needed was Enlarge, and Haste cast on him, and it was just really, really DUMB how disgusting he became.Since Haste was brought up, damage dealing death machines like this TWF are wonderful targets for Slow. No full round attack action, only a single attack each round or a movement (at 1/2 speed) not both.
Maerdash 09-10-05, 03:21 AM	I think it should be treated as extra dice, not as a weapon. But even if you treat it as a weapon, its crit multiplier is x2, not x4. Your of course right it should be x2 not x4 I didn't think and was using a house rule instead of the RAW there.
Stev Beren 09-11-05, 07:11 AM	Shadow: Perhaps the other charachters cared mroe about giving their characters a personality than about trying to game the system purely for statistical gain? If I wanted to do mathematical equations on 'maximization' I would become an accounted. But its DUngeons and Dragons. .not accountants and bean-counters.
20goingon1232 09-12-05, 07:39 AM	Shadow: Perhaps the other charachters cared mroe about giving their characters a personality than about trying to game the system purely for statistical gain? If I wanted to do mathematical equations on 'maximization' I would become an accounted. But its DUngeons and Dragons. .not accountants and bean-counters. Then don't complain when you get overshadowed by others. You only have YOURSELF to blame. If someone like that was in my game, he'd soon be level 1 through various deaths. Then he will know what inferior is. I HATE people that insist that they are only RP-ing by making sub-standard characters and then insist on everyone else be brought down to their level because of their own preferrences. I don't mind you making inferior characters. I DO mind if you subsequently whine about it. And don't expect me to pull you out of the mire. Your choice, now live with it. There is too little of that around these days.
Sliverthorn 09-12-05, 08:08 AM	Old One, not to be pedantic, but when you listed the feats for his bastard sword, you didn't put in Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). If he doesn't have that then to slow him down a bit (not that I think he needs it) you could make him replace the current feat with OTWF and make him change one of his other feats for that otherwise he can't weild the BS one handed. Just an idea. Sliverthorn.
ShadowDragon8685 09-12-05, 08:10 AM	It's NOT a game of Min/Maxers. And any DM who punishizes his players for being more concerned about the role-play than the roll-play should himself be punished. By hammergun. It is, in fact, their right to complain. Because they are not having fun. If they don't have long enough, soon it'll be you and Mr. Magnificent. 20, that's precisely why I said the DM should fix the problem, not the players. Tailor-make them something that brings them in line with the other PC. Don't nerf him.
High Octane 09-12-05, 08:43 AM	Kept in perspective: the dual weilding bastard swords requires 3 feats. Two weapon fighting, The new feat, AND exotic weapon proficiency (Bastard sword.) At which point you are only getting one extra attack and ALL attacks are at -2. Also remember that means you have no SHIELD and are vulnerable to attacks. You can take two weapon defense, which means another feat, and only adds +1 to AC, as opposed to a heavy steel shield which adds +2, more if its magical. On that note holding two weapons means you have to buy twice as many weapons and weapons cost more than equivelant armor or shield.
solbergb 09-12-05, 12:46 PM	You guys who don't think this two-bastard-sword weilder is broken haven't played with one before. They can be completely game breaking. The one MY player developed had the "Monkey Grip" feat I think it is called, which allows you to grasp a 2-handed weapon with one hand. Then it was simply a matter of Improved Critical with the Bastard Sword, and a combination of other feats. You're kidding right? damage potential of two bastard swords is less than a single one-handed weapon except when he can full attack. On the full attack, you are getting -2 to hit on both weapons, you aren't getting any more strength bonus. You are limited to only one off-hand attack unless you spent even more feats. You also have to spend 2x the cash to keep your weapons up to snuff, compared to the guy who just chose greatsword. Lets pick a few levels and compare cases. I'll model the extra -2 to hit by power attacking for two with the 2h guy. We'll give both people weapon spec, and strength fairly appropriate for level (starting 16 str, statbumps to strength, +2 str item upgrades each 6 levels. Your boy has power attack but we'll leave it out of the equation for now, beyond giving the 2H weapon guy an extra "power attack for 2" to even out the attack mods. Level 6: At this level you can afford gaunts of ogre power and a +1 weapon. The greatsword weilder has a +1 might bow, instead of a +1 off-hand weapon. We'll go up the power attack/cleave/great cleave route for the onehanded guy, to mimic TWF, oversized TWF, improved TWF feat use. Both need to be fighter 6 to get all those feats (5 feats for each - the bastard sword weilder needs to be human for the EWP, or dwarf to do it with waraxes or halforc to do it with a double axe (str bump for race evens out the d8 vs d10)) Greatsword: 2d6+1+6+2+4 (enhance, str, spec,power attack) +6/+1 bab damage: 20 per swing, 40 if he hits with all full attacks. If he drops an enemy, he can swing at any other within reach, adding to his potential. Dual bastard: 1d10+1+4+2 +6/+1 bab 1d10+1+2+2 +6/+1 offhand bab Damage: 12.5 on primary swing, 23 per "iterative", 46 if he hits with all 4 attacks. 6 points of damage per full attack, which will be balanced against not getting 8 points of damage each single attack, and not getting cleave. Lets go to level 12. Both get greater weapon spec, dual bastard guy needs a third TWF feat. Lets give Greatsword guy blindfight (he gets less swings he might have more trouble with miss chances). We've used up all the fighter feats to L12, but he's still got his L9 and L12 feat. By now the TWF guy can afford a single d6 enhancement on each weapon, the greatsword guy can get a 2d6 enhancement such as holy, or two single d6 enhancments, and both are using belt str+4. Both have room for improved crit. The TWF guy will crit more often, the greatsword guy will do a lot more on each crit. The numbers wash, so we'll just look at base damage. We'll also assume that both parties get a GMW spell from the party cleric or wizard (the 2h fighter gets it on a special material weapon or his bow perhaps) Greatsword: 2d6+2d6+3+9+4+4 (enhance, str, spec,power attack) +11/+6/+1 bab damage: 34 per hit, 102 if all three hit. Haste bumps this to 136 Dual Bastard 1d10+d6+3+6+4 +11/+6/+1 bab 1d10+d6+3+3+4 +11/+6/+1 offhand bab. Damage: 22 on primary swing, 41 per "iterative", 123 if all 6 attacks hit, 145 with haste. Note - damage is nearly with haste (and if they don't have boots of haste by now, they will by the next checkpoint) The 2h guy has a significant edge in the "charge into combat" round, or vs special material enemies (he has at least two weapons enchanted that do full damage) or when he can cleave or vs miss chance enemies. The dual guy has a 20 point advantage in a full attack. This advantage drops rapidly if the enemy has low AC allowing more power attack, or very high AC where the 2h guy eases up on power attack and hits more often. Now kick it up to where they have their final iterative attack, +6 str items and +4 in attribute bumps (L16). By now they WILL have boots of haste, the GMW is up to +4, there is no additional offhand feat for the bastard sword guy, but he can now afford +2d6 weapons on both hands, and have 3 examples (one of each material type) and the 2h guy is probably not able to do much better, but will pick the right weapon (ghost touch undead bane silver, holy outsider bane cold iron, construct bane adamantium or just a +3d6 elemental weapon...net about 2d6+2 extra damage per weapon, sometimes a bit more vs the right opponent). Lets just assume 2d6+2 extra per weapon. Greatsword: 2d6+2d6+2+4+12+4+4 (enhance, str, spec,power attack) +16/+16/11/+6/+1 bab damage: 40 per hit, 200 if all five hit Dual Bastard 1d10+2d6+2+4+8+4 +16/+16/+11/+6/+1 bab 1d10+d6+3+4+4 +16/+11/+6 offhand bab. Damage: 30.5 on primary swing, 26.5 per "offhand", 117 if all 6 attacks hit, 232 damage if all 5 hit. Again...a slight advantage in damage if the TH guy can be as efficient as the 1H guy in picking the right weapon for the job (and manages somehow to do so for both hands). One cleave (likely with 200 points of damage) erases that advantage. The dual weilding guy under ideal conditions SHOULD do a bit more damage than the 2h guy - his ideal circumstances are a lot harder to set up and he's less flexible in how he does damage (power attack is more awkward to use, and he's feat-starved and attribute starved (he needs very high dex as well as very high strength to make the most of his approach). If the 2h guy can't use his extra feat and attribute points to make up the difference, I'd be surprised. Fighters are blenders if you stand next to them, you get shredded. That's pretty much what they are for. If you take that away, they really don't have anything at all.
eudas 09-12-05, 01:05 PM	Is this thread still going on? God, the OP's Q was answered in post #2. let it die. eudas
BeyondFated 09-12-05, 02:00 PM	It's NOT a game of Min/Maxers. And any DM who punishizes his players for being more concerned about the role-play than the roll-play should himself be punished. By hammergun. It is, in fact, their right to complain. Because they are not having fun. If they don't have long enough, soon it'll be you and Mr. Magnificent. 20, that's precisely why I said the DM should fix the problem, not the players. Tailor-make them something that brings them in line with the other PC. Don't nerf him. It's also NOT a game solely for role-players. That would be a conversation. And any DM who punsihizes (whatever tha means, but I'll go with it) his players for being more concerned about the roll-play than the role-play should himself be punished. By hammergun. Of doom. And it is a right to kick them out of the group for complaining. If their not having fun, obviously they shouldn't be playing with that group. All they do by complaining is ruin everyone elses fun. Because they're not having fun, doesn't mean everyone should conform to them. However, if one powergamer was in a group a roleplayers, then there is a problem. The fact is that sometimes the minority has to bite the bullet and either quit and find a new group, are suck it up and bear it. The group is not there to please your every whim, but there to have the most fun for the group. ___ Is this thread still going on? God, the OP's Q was answered in post #2. let it die. eudas Hey, it's just not a full day without yer math-offs on the internet! :D
Murrdox 09-12-05, 02:40 PM	Whoa you guys!! Damn, the math is overwhelming me!! :) ANYWAYS, this campaign was about 2 years ago. I'm sorry to say that I do not remember the specific character build, however, I think now looking back on it, that he may have been using Great Swords instead of Bastard Swords. Also, his character build may not even be VALID anymore, because it was in 3.0, not 3.5, using 3.0 Haste rules and such. The problem remained. Basically there were 2 min/maxers in our party of 5, and this guy had min/maxed this dual-weilder to death. He was such a bastion of death that I couldn't throw something at the party that would CHALLENGE this guy, and at the same time not completely annhilate the rest of the party. The character in question wasn't particularly imbalanced as far as the RULES of the game go, but he was MASSIVELY imblanced as far as the power-level of the party. As I've already said, a large part of the imbalance was due to outdated 3.0 rules and such. I can't really remember what else he had about him that made him so devastating. There were a couple other things besides the two greatswords though. I know he pulled the other 3.0 trick of stacking "Keen" on top of "Improved Critical".
weasel fierce 09-12-05, 02:46 PM	The best bet is to make sure everyone is on the same page, before making characters. Well, that and make adventures that arent purely about massacring things. That way, characters that arent maxed out will still have plenty of things to do.
Murrdox 09-12-05, 02:52 PM	The best bet is to make sure everyone is on the same page, before making characters. Well, that and make adventures that arent purely about massacring things. That way, characters that arent maxed out will still have plenty of things to do. This particular player would have made a character that is all about massacring things no matter WHAT kind of campaign I created. He's that kind of a min/maxer that doing damage and killing things and creating the most devastating meat-grinding machine is about the only thing he cares about in a character.
20goingon1232 09-12-05, 04:31 PM	It's NOT a game of Min/Maxers. And any DM who punishizes his players for being more concerned about the role-play than the roll-play should himself be punished. By hammergun. It is, in fact, their right to complain. Because they are not having fun. If they don't have long enough, soon it'll be you and Mr. Magnificent. 20, that's precisely why I said the DM should fix the problem, not the players. Tailor-make them something that brings them in line with the other PC. Don't nerf him. That is where you are wrong. ALL games are for min/maxers. You don't have Fat Albert on your swim team for that exact reason. Similarly, if you insist on showing your hand everytime you play poker, you lose. Get used to it. I do not expect my players to min/max to the nth degree. I DO expect them to live with their choices and NOT CRY when things don't go their way. It is called being MATURE. Doing something stupid, getting caught out and crying about it is okay for 3 year olds, not 25-30s, which is the age group I tend to game with. "It's RP!" is NEVER an excuse in my eyes. I am sick of that excuse that idiots use to justify everything from raping babies to forcing others to conform to what THEY want done. Use it in my game and expect to roll up a new character at level 1. I make that very clear to my players. You will NOT cause problems in the group and claim it was RP. I don't care what your character is. Do it and start again. At level 1. I am fairly liberal with a lot of things, but I will NOT allow anything that will mess up party harmonics. You want to make a Sorceror with a cha of 1 for RP reasons, fine. Don't come complaining to me afterwards and try to get me to bring others down to your level because the Fighter has put 17 in str, the Mage 18 in int or whatever and put their 1 elsewhere. Your character WILL end up a stain on the ground. IF you are lucky. As I said, there is not enough lessons in RESPONSIBILITY these days. Too much "It's someone else's fault, never my own". This will never happen in my games. Period. Learn maturity and responsibility fast or leave. You will wish you had if you stay and insist on blaming everyone else.
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 09-12-05, 06:27 PM	Personally, I'd let him keep his feat...and make everyone else in game capable of doing so come "standard equiped" with the same. It sure worked keeping my 3.0e party from using the bag-o-rats method. :smirk: Oh yeah, and help make the other players slighter more uber too....so they don't do the "walk-out shuffle" on you and the munchkin.
Jaime_Wolf 09-12-05, 07:49 PM	First of all, I implore you, PLEASE ignore these ideas of "Turn him against the party" or "award more experience to him to show the other players he's too powerful." That's a very very stupid way to handle things. If you turn him against the players and he's so hard he kills them all they're likely to be more upset with their characters's deaths than they are that he's overpowered. As for giving him more experience to show them, that's flat-out moronic. If I were playing in a campaign and the DM started to shower a person who already seemed powerful with experience I would leave, I wouldn't ask the powerful character to change because it appears the DM is causing the problems with his experience rewards and such. Also, if for some reason you feel the need to "punish" the other characters until they realise how unbalanced the fighter is, that would mean that they don't already consider the fighter unbalanced. If they buff and they don't mind it and they don't think he's overpowered, fine. Keep in mind too that some characters are focused on buffing, a large part of being a bard is buffing and if you say that bards are less powerful simply because they're buffing and not fighting you do them a grave diservice. Just because one character is more powerful does not mean things need to be changed. Any moreover you will always have ONE character that is the best in the group, it's impossible to make a totally balanced group. Also, have you considered that perhaps you are throwing too many generic slab-o-meat with claws and teeth at them? A fighter who's so focused on this should be able to outshine the others when in a match against simple HP, but what if it's a moving battle, sayonara multiple attacks. What if it's a battle against spellcasters, goodbye fighter. On a last note, what's wrong with your spellcasters? Around that level, perhaps a little higher, they should be able to tear through encounters based on HP like tissue paper? One hundred and fifty damage, probably not, but that's with criticals. Most monsters have at least one low save, and a decent spellcaster has spells that target each save, so it should be fairly simple to use death spells and/or damage spells to make the fighter envious. And, as stated above, as a whole, unless you're a rogue, two-weapon fighting is statistically worse than single-weapon fighting. I wish I had the calculations somewhere, but I used to have a complete analysis someone did for each level. The only class that benefits much from it is rogue, and if a rogue stands still and full-attacks he or she is in a lot of danger on that creature's next turn.
20goingon1232 09-12-05, 09:20 PM	Personally, I'd let him keep his feat...and make everyone else in game capable of doing so come "standard equiped" with the same. It sure worked keeping my 3.0e party from using the bag-o-rats method. :smirk: Oh yeah, and help make the other players slighter more uber too....so they don't do the "walk-out shuffle" on you and the munchkin. The only munchkin around here is you. The above accusation makes about as much sense as yours.
Stev Beren 09-12-05, 10:59 PM	Then don't complain when you get overshadowed by others. You only have YOURSELF to blame. If someone like that was in my game, he'd soon be level 1 through various deaths. Then he will know what inferior is. I HATE people that insist that they are only RP-ing by making sub-standard characters and then insist on everyone else be brought down to their level because of their own preferrences. I don't mind you making inferior characters. I DO mind if you subsequently whine about it. And don't expect me to pull you out of the mire. Your choice, now live with it. There is too little of that around these days. There is a distinct difference between intentionally making a character _weak_ and making all decisions on the character with a calculator and a damage table in front of you. When all decisions are made solely for the purpose of how much carnage they can cause without even bothering to think for one second about any internal consistancy or logic.
Stev Beren 09-12-05, 11:01 PM	Then don't complain when you get overshadowed by others. You only have YOURSELF to blame. If someone like that was in my game, he'd soon be level 1 through various deaths. Then he will know what inferior is. I HATE people that insist that they are only RP-ing by making sub-standard characters and then insist on everyone else be brought down to their level because of their own preferrences. I don't mind you making inferior characters. I DO mind if you subsequently whine about it. And don't expect me to pull you out of the mire. Your choice, now live with it. There is too little of that around these days. There is a distinct difference between intentionally making a character _weak_ and making all decisions on the character with a calculator and a damage table in front of you. When all decisions are made solely for the purpose of how much carnage they can cause without even bothering to think for one second about any internal consistancy or logic. There is a safe middle ground. HOwever, I find the weak a bit better than the calculator bit - the weakness is less likely to break a game. There is a continuum, from the people who barely care what their stats are at all, to those who agonize over every half point of damage. The upper end is a bit. . off.
20goingon1232 09-12-05, 11:13 PM	There is a distinct difference between intentionally making a character _weak_ and making all decisions on the character with a calculator and a damage table in front of you. When all decisions are made solely for the purpose of how much carnage they can cause without even bothering to think for one second about any internal consistancy or logic. There is a safe middle ground. HOwever, I find the weak a bit better than the calculator bit - the weakness is less likely to break a game. There is a continuum, from the people who barely care what their stats are at all, to those who agonize over every half point of damage. The upper end is a bit. . off. But the bottom one is not. Thank you Mr Double Standards. Also thank you for setting out an example that I have yet to come across: that of the calculator using powergamer. Sadly, however, I have come across his EXACT opposite.
Solidcobra 09-13-05, 05:09 AM	...weakness is much more likely to ruin a game than strength. Trust me on that one. If the strong guy isn't also a whiny spotlight hog, he'll just be a "buffer" for you, so that you won't end up with "oops, too strong enemy wipes the party out" situations. If you have one really strong guy that doesn't crave attention, he will simply help the others out of tight spots. If you have one really pathetic and worthless guy that doesn't crave attention, he'll just take up precious game time and the player will be angry because his character sucks, thus lowering overall enjoyment.
Mirage_1 09-13-05, 08:13 AM	There is a distinct difference between intentionally making a character _weak_ and making all decisions on the character with a calculator and a damage table in front of you. When all decisions are made solely for the purpose of how much carnage they can cause without even bothering to think for one second about any internal consistancy or logic. ummm.....generally the min-max comes from being more consistent and more logical with the character, not less. Example - wanting a fighter good with a long sword might lead to weapon focus longsword and weapon specialization longsword, not Skill focus: basketweaving. This funny enough lends the person to be....good with a longsword
ShadowDragon8685 09-13-05, 08:23 AM	ummm.....generally the min-max comes from being more consistent and more logical with the character, not less. Example - wanting a fighter good with a long sword might lead to weapon focus longsword and weapon specialization longsword, not Skill focus: underwater basketweaving. This funny enough lends the person to be....good with a longsword Fixed. But seriously, all it creates is someone who is purpose-bred for one thing and one thing only. How many people can do one thing and one thing only? And how are these people going to survive when their adventuring days are over? I assume most adventurers fight for the right to retire. I mean, honestly. A level 20 fighter is an idiot. All he can do is swordity-sword-sword. He probably can't even survive on his own, and if you look at his stats, it looks like he's had a sharp piece of steel in his hands from the moment he got chucked out of the womb until the moment he finally croaked. That's not just specialization. That's mind-numbing singlemindedness. He might as well have the Construct Type.
Mirage_1 09-13-05, 08:29 AM	Fixed. But seriously, all it creates is someone who is purpose-bred for one thing and one thing only. How many people can do one thing and one thing only? And how are these people going to survive when their adventuring days are over? I assume most adventurers fight for the right to retire. I mean, honestly. A level 20 fighter is an idiot. All he can do is swordity-sword-sword. He probably can't even survive on his own, and if you look at his stats, it looks like he's had a sharp piece of steel in his hands from the moment he got chucked out of the womb until the moment he finally croaked. That's not just specialization. That's mind-numbing singlemindedness. He might as well have the Construct Type. and that is a problem that many soldiers had...they were trained to fight, not for peacetime. Shame all those soldiers built their skill sets to survive and not for roleplaying reasons :-) As for how to survive after level 20...hmmm...maybe with the small kingdom you can buy and have someone else do the management for you?
weasel fierce 09-13-05, 01:31 PM	Imagine if there was a game called roleplaying, where you interacted with imaginary characters, solved tricks and puzzles, avoided traps and did amazing things, apart from hacking everything you meet into pieces and taking their stuff. I think such a game would sell really well.
ShadowDragon8685 09-13-05, 03:49 PM	You do realize that soldiers nowadays have to have a minimum of a high school diploma to be considered, right? People don't just grow up, get their +1 BAB, and get on their way. They should have learned SOMETHING other than a +1 attack bonus in their childhood and adolescence. It's just not reflected. And trying to reflect it 'breaks' the 'build.' That's BS. This is a roleplaying game, not algebra and beginning stastics.
Aldarionn 09-13-05, 04:26 PM	Look in the DM guide, under the Specific Weapons section. There is an item there called a Sunblade. It is a bastard sword for all intents and purposes, except the wielder reacts as if it were a short sword (counts as a light weapon). This means that the player wielding one of these in his/her offhand (or 2 of them if you allow it, though it's expensive), can finesse the weapon and make it even more powerfull depending on dex. Dual wielding bastard swords is not a major promblem, I think. In this situation, if he is doing too much damage, I would put creatures against him that have DR that his weapons cannot bypass, or are immune to whatever elemental damage his weapons can do, or perhaps are not affected by the allignment damage his weapons can do, etc.... There are plenty of monsters in plenty of books that can shut down a character that is overpowered in one area. When I played an 8th level Paladin/10th level Knight of the Chalice, I was rolling 1d8 and 9d6 damage against CE outsiders on every hit (+1 holy, axiomatic, screaming elven thinblade made of cold iron, 2d6 holy, 2d6 lawful, 1d6 sonic and 4d6 from fiendslaying :D ), so when I dropped a Balor to below half heath in a single round, my DM put us up against epic Golems in our next session, replacing out a few fiends he had intended to use. I damn near got my head taken off, and did very little to the golems, instead having to work with the rest of my party to beat them down. A clever DM will find a workaround for overpowered characters, so use your imagination :D .
Vrykolas2k 09-13-05, 05:13 PM	I would have simply started a new campaign.
BeyondFated 09-13-05, 05:32 PM	Imagine if there was a game called roleplaying, where you interacted with imaginary characters, solved tricks and puzzles, avoided traps and did amazing things, apart from hacking everything you meet into pieces and taking their stuff. I think such a game would sell really well. Imagine a game that came with a set of rules so that you could custom create a character that you could pit against monsters to save the world. You could gain power as you advance through the game, and be able to face tougher chalanges, giving you a sense of accomplishment when you defeat something more powerful than you. Of wait, they already made both of those games, and rolled it into one package no less! There is no right or wrong way to play DnD, so don't act like there is. ____ I would have simply started a new campaign. But perhaps these players actually enjoy playing the current campaign. I don't remember the OP mentioning that the players weren't having fun. Besides, your suggestion seems too heavy handed.
weasel fierce 09-14-05, 12:37 AM	Of wait, they already made both of those games, and rolled it into one package no less! There is no right or wrong way to play DnD, so don't act like there is. Im not. Im simply stating, somewhat snarkily, that there is more to the game than hacking things apart, and that a huge amount of the "balance" issues people spend so much energy complaining about, are solved by varied and balanced adventure design. If the only thing in the adventures consist of killing monsters, then dont be surprised when everyone plays fighters and wizards with flamy spells of doom. Why play a rogue if the campaign doesnt acknowledge that role ?
Mirage_1 09-14-05, 06:36 AM	Im not. Im simply stating, somewhat snarkily, that there is more to the game than hacking things apart, and that a huge amount of the "balance" issues people spend so much energy complaining about, are solved by varied and balanced adventure design. If the only thing in the adventures consist of killing monsters, then dont be surprised when everyone plays fighters and wizards with flamy spells of doom. Why play a rogue if the campaign doesnt acknowledge that role ? I'll fully go along with this. Creating a combat monster for a city intregue campaign is stupid (assuming you knew ahead of time), and playing a diplomat when the plan is to play the worlds largest dungeon is also silly. If you want characters to be more mult-dimensional characters, the campaign needs to me multi-dimensional. However, if the campaign is focused on just one aspect (example - combat), then the DM and and other players shouldn't whine about a player creating their character to fit the campaign
Dragen White 09-14-05, 10:42 AM	ok i know probably the above post covered it but heres my opinion, yeah hes way breaking it, first even with two weapon fighting you have to weild a light weapon in the offhand or else you get like a -2/ -4 or somthing, and lets say he gets the oversized weapons feat, ok that reduced the penalties, but has anyone forgot their not one handed!!!!, he can't do it unless he wants some major penalties in both hands for weilding two handed weapons in one hand, a good feat to look into for this would be of course monkey grip, after all of these feats are taken yeah sure he might have a -2/-2, but it seems hes been getten all the benifits without payen for them. i suggest fixxing it before the other PC's get ******.
Aldarionn 09-14-05, 11:02 AM	ok i know probably the above post covered it but heres my opinion, yeah hes way breaking it, first even with two weapon fighting you have to weild a light weapon in the offhand or else you get like a -2/ -4 or somthing, and lets say he gets the oversized weapons feat, ok that reduced the penalties, but has anyone forgot their not one handed!!!!, he can't do it unless he wants some major penalties in both hands for weilding two handed weapons in one hand, a good feat to look into for this would be of course monkey grip, after all of these feats are taken yeah sure he might have a -2/-2, but it seems hes been getten all the benifits without payen for them. i suggest fixxing it before the other PC's get ******. If you take exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword) then you can wield a bastard sword as a 1 hander. Aldaroinn
20goingon1232 09-14-05, 05:19 PM	ok i know probably the above post covered it but heres my opinion, yeah hes way breaking it, first even with two weapon fighting you have to weild a light weapon in the offhand or else you get like a -2/ -4 or somthing, and lets say he gets the oversized weapons feat, ok that reduced the penalties, but has anyone forgot their not one handed!!!!, he can't do it unless he wants some major penalties in both hands for weilding two handed weapons in one hand, a good feat to look into for this would be of course monkey grip, after all of these feats are taken yeah sure he might have a -2/-2, but it seems hes been getten all the benifits without payen for them. i suggest fixxing it before the other PC's get ******. Read your PHB again, bub. Particularly the Equipment section under "Sword, Bastard".
Dragonspirit 09-14-05, 07:26 PM	How is this resulting in so much more damage than if he used regular two weapon fighting? If he used a rapier instead for his off weapon, for example? Isn't it effectively a 2 damage/hit difference on average?
Aldarionn 09-14-05, 07:44 PM	How is this resulting in so much more damage than if he used regular two weapon fighting? If he used a rapier instead for his off weapon, for example? Isn't it effectively a 2 damage/hit difference on average? See, that's what I've been wondering. First off, what level is this character, and what is his class breakdown? Secondly, what is his Str and his attack bonus with the weapons (in both hands)? Third, what special abilities do the weapons have (IE: flaming, shocking, holy, axiomatic, etc...)? Finally, what feats does the character have (including the feat you are looking at removing)? If you give us this information we will probably be beter able to help you come to a solution, because jsut dual wielding Bastard Swords is not that much of an offense. I made a 20th level LG rogue (sort of a holy assassin, if you will) with a pair of +4 Holy, Axiomatic, Evil Outsider Bane Sunblades (these things cost like 135,000+ GP each, but right up there for what a 20th rogue would have). He took Weapon Finesse (Shortsword), and due to Sunblades counting as Shortswords for all intents and purposes (feats that affect shortswords affect sunblades), he could use his 30+ Dex (dont have his sheet on me right now, I'm at work) to add to attack and damage rather than Str. Against CE outsiders this guy does some serious damage, but against most other enemies his damage is somewhat weak unless he is in a position to use sneak attack. Had the second weapon been a shortsword, the Rogue would have an average damage of 59.5 per hit against CE outsiders with sneak attack. With the Bastard Sword his average is 61.5 per hit. Not a significant difference. There are always ways to work around an overpowered PC. If he is powerful against one particulr type of enemy, don't use it as often. If he just does a lot of general damage, use monsters with high DR that his weapons cannot bypass, or add healers in with the enemies to keep them alive longer. Once again I say use your imagination :D Aldarionn
malrick 09-15-05, 03:35 PM	i personally wouldnt worry much, level a couple times and the casters should own the game anyway, if his damage output is still unreal at 12th, more power to him. yea they can still buff him but at some point, they will just be wasting spells.
rbrt_Spade 09-15-05, 03:40 PM	well then reading the 100th i hate the dm thread, just try to work it out with your dm then posting this on the web-come on
Aldarionn 09-15-05, 03:47 PM	well then reading the 100th i hate the dm thread, just try to work it out with your dm then posting this on the web-come on Um, last I checked this was not an "I hate the DM" thread. This is a player who is taking over for a DM and is looking at removing a feat that he considers to be detrimental to the game, and is asking players how they would feel about him removing it. Please read the ENTIRE thread before you make comments like that. Also, please try to use better grammar on the boards, it' took me several tries to understand what you meant in your post. Aldarionn
rbrt_Spade 09-15-05, 03:51 PM	thank you for pointing that out, it just drives me nuts with this threads sorry :)
striderII 09-15-05, 07:35 PM	I didn't have the time to read the entire thread, so my apologies if this has been commented on before, but: A DM taking away my feats, or doing anything else arbitrary to an already-existing character, I would scream bloody murder about. Question: why do you think this is "arbitrary"? I would say this is the DM trying to maintain a semblance of game balance (please divert discussions of the existance of game balance to a different thread :) ) - something certainly *not* arbitrary. I would agree with weasel fierce from the first page when he commented that if the character concept revolves around two big swords, then you have no worries. In fact, in my opinion, that isn't even a concept, but your mileage may vary. strider