human/ranger... what skills and feats? [Archive] - Wizards Community

human/ranger... what skills and feats? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
stezerok846
03-15-07, 11:43 PM As an extremely new player, I wanted to know if I could get some general tips on character design. I've decided upon a human/ranger mix which allows for pleanty of feats and skills and the like. So now in case anyone tells me that I should build the character depending on the campaign, all I can say is that we havent yet decided on the campaign and so we are all working on characters who are capable in any campaign type, which means not only a well rounded individual but a well rounded party. So. Now that thats over with, my initial thought was that I really wanted to create a character with the two-weapon fighting style. However I cant deny that we do need a bowman of some sort. Therefore I wanted to devote the rangers special feat combat style to the bow, and then devote my actual feats that I gain throughout the game to the two-weapon style. Does this sound plausable? I'm looking in particular for a character who is fast, and who can stand back and shoot before eventually charging in with a flurry of attacks. Are there any suggestions for a good combination of skills/feats to this end, or does this whole idea just simply not work? Any help would be appreciated!
Aminvelos
03-16-07, 12:30 AM Well, my first inclination is a no but that might not be the case? What are your stats, and if you havent rolled them how are they going to be decided? Secondly, are there any vets/experienced players in the game. What books are allowed? Once these three questions are answered I can post a much more detailed answer.
Comus
03-16-07, 12:54 AM I think it'd be fine to go for both TWF and archery. You'll want a high Dex for both, so that's one plus (no extra stat requirements). You might want to consider Weapon Finesse, as I'm sure your Dex will be higher than your strength. Ranger's Favored Enemy bonus works well with both strategies, too. And, unlike a pure bow-spec ranger, you'll have some melee tricks for when you go into a dungeon.

Sounds like a fine plan to me. And simple enough that it won't take a lot of shoehorning to make it fit. Just take all the TWF tree as you qualify for the feats, maybe weapon finesse, and maybe consider Imp. Initiative (you said you wanted him to be fast) and maybe one or two of the Improved <combat maneuver> feats, like Improved Disarm or Improved Trip.
stezerok846
03-16-07, 12:55 AM ok, well. No I havent rolled stats yet as we havent all sat down so that they could see. However based off of the set up of the rangers skills and the like, I would say that in rank of highest to lowest it would probably be

1. int
2. wis*
3. dex
4. str
5. con
6. cha

Also, no there are no vets/experienced players, asides from the person who we found to be our DM (however thats still sort of tenative...) And as of what I know just the basic book: PHB, DMG, MM, and MIC (the Magic Item Compendium we dont have yet, but I'd love to get my hands on one lol) I believe that one of our players may have Frostburn I believe its called... but I dont know if we are actually going to use it. I hope that is what you were asking for...

*depending on how useful it really is, I may change wis to 4th, and move dex and str both up a slot on the scale.
Comus
03-16-07, 01:27 AM I'd probably put the stats more in this order:

1. Dexterity (AC, attack rolls (with ranged weapons, also with certain melee weapons if you have the right feat), Reflex saves, Dex requirements for TWF feat tree)
2. Strength (attack rolls with most melee weapons, damage with melee weapons and compound bows)
3. Constitution (HP, fort saves - switch this and Wisdom if wisdom would be below 12 by bumping it to fourth place)
4. Wisdom (spells [don't need much of it, though, as a ranger], Will saves)
5. Intelligence (Rangers have a lot of skill points, so you aren't relying on much in the way of bonus skills)
6. Charisma (Somethin' has to go last, and for this character it's CHA)
Dragonsblood
03-16-07, 01:51 AM If you want to use your feats on TWF because it fits your concept, that's fine. But TWF is not very effective. You'd be much better off picking feats that make you a better archer and only going into melee when it's absolutely necessary. I think in practice you're going to see how much your archery out paces your melee damage, and for much less risk.

As for stats, put your highest score into dex, and decent scores into str, con, and wis. You only need a 14 wisdom to be able to cast all of your spells. Cha and int aren't as important.
danielinthewolvesden
03-16-07, 03:28 AM I would go for either not both.

There is Improved Toughness.

Improved Buckler Defence (if you are going TWF).

PBshot (archer)

Precise shot (archer)

Iron Will.
AffableDoomwalker
03-16-07, 04:56 AM Balancing between two fighting styles is tricky, usually an auxiliary weapon is a good idea, but you're probably better off finding a niche and sticking to it.

If you absolutely, positively want to try out a mix'n'match ranger, I'd suggest you chose the Two-Weapon Fighting path, and picked up Dodge and Mobility at level 1. Following that, Weapon Finesse, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot... as well as Improved Precise Shot, if you can hack it with your Dex (19 needed), but that kills almost all your Feats from 1-20.

As for stats, if you're going on point buy I'd recommend:
(in order from most to least important)
Dexterity - To Hit with Ranged, and huge effect on TWF
Constitution - Zee Healths
Strength - At least 10, at most 12 - Composite Longbow = joy!
Wisdom - Methinks you need 14 in order to access all your spells
Intelligence - Enough so you can talk right
Charisma - Not really all that important for reclusive forest-dwellers

I'd say you could make a fairly successful skirmisher with that kinda setup, and I can imagine it would be interesting to play; just seems that one way or the other you'd end up playing one role or the other, and never really utilizing both in any one situation, "limited flexibility" is a term that comes to mind.
Genetic
03-16-07, 09:13 AM You could always drop 2 levels in fighter as well. That gives you 2 extra feats to play with.
kelvinaw273
03-16-07, 11:17 AM Well Ranger is a good choice as a generalist character, it means that you can adapt the charatcer as you go to the campaign as it evolves. There are other options that can help you a great deal, and as a ranger you can multi-class.

If you want a real flurry of attacks, take some levels in monk and the Ascetic Hunter feat ;)
Comus
03-16-07, 11:49 AM If you want to use your feats on TWF because it fits your concept, that's fine. But TWF is not very effective.
TWF is not very effective... without bonus damage. Rangers get it through Favored Enemy Bonuses.
Tonil
03-16-07, 06:34 PM I currently play a bow focused ranger/fighter. Here are a few suggestions. They may not work for all ranged warriors, but they worked for me:

If you focus on ranged: The four most useful ranged feats for my character have been point-blank, rapid shot, precise shot, and improved precise shot. I tend to take full-round attacks from close range to support my melee comrades. So I recommend that if you take the ranged style you definitely take precise shot, and point blank if you will be close to the action. Point Blank is also a prerequisite for some other feats.

If you decide to do both ranged and TWF: Improved Precise Shot has more prerequisites than Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, but if it is part of your ranger style you do not need the prereqs. If you do not think you will meet the prerequisites, then take the ranged style and add TWF feats in other ways.

Why I suggest you take the ranged combat style but not do TWF: The primary benefit of using a bow at low levels is the extra attack from rapid shot and the range. The downside is the inability to boost your damage at will; such as with spells, like Bull's Strength, or power attack. If you compare rapid shot with TWF they are roughly on par with each other, the only question is how much Str. bonus you can add to your damage. Both styles have the same mix: more attacks with less damage than two-handed fighting. For this reason I agree with AffableDoomwalker above: use a two-handed weapon like a greatsword instead of TWF. If you want extra attacks in each round use the bow. If you need lots of damage you can get that with a two-handed weapon and power attack. Lastly, you can take feats like Combat Expertise or Improved Trip (or whatever) in place of the TWF feats.

One last note: My character is a ranger, but in order to give me enough ranged bonus to hit and damage I took a four level dip in fighter. I was able to add Precise Shot and Weapon Specialization by tenth level (Rngr 6/Ftr 4), but felt like I was just keeping up with a fighter with two-handed weapon and power attack. Of course I often take no damage in combat, so that is a bonus.

This is from my experience, your mileage may vary
Dragonsblood
03-16-07, 10:07 PM TWF is not very effective... without bonus damage. Rangers get it through Favored Enemy Bonuses.

Favored enemy bonuses are nice, but hardly enough to make TWF effective (and obviously not if you're not fighting a favored enemy). Sneak attack makes it worth it though.
SilverFoxKnows
03-17-07, 12:29 AM If you do end up going after both styles pick a light weapon for melee. That way any melee Feats you take count for both- Weapon Finese, Weapon Focus (not often suggested by the numbers crunchers but it will reduce the penalites for TWF to -1/-1), Improved Critical. I'd go with short swords, good crit range and common enough to find a magical one. I like the idea of being able to do both styles. Have fun with it.
foxtrothacker
03-17-07, 12:39 AM First off, i wanna say that human/ranger is one of my favorites, good choice! =P
Now, onto the good stuff.

Both tree's of feats (Archery and Two-Weapon Fighting) require high dexterity scores to take the feats; so make sure you put at least a 16 into dex if you can. I highly recommend you take Weapon finesse as soon as you can. This will help you with your ability to hit with melee weapons. With weapon finesse, you don't have to put as many points into str, maybe only a 12 or 14.

At first level, i recommend Point Blank Shot and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 2nd level choose a Archery (the beter feats have prerequisites such as dodge, mobility, and you may not have room/time to take those feats) and you'll get rapid shot. At 3rd level take weapon finesse.

1: Point Blank Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting
2: Rapid Shot
3: Weapon Finesse
4: Put a Stat point into Dexterity
5:
6: Manyshot, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

I think the above would be the best way to go about what you want.

Make sure you buy 2 light weapons so weapon finesse will work on both and buy a Compound Bow to add your Strength damage to your bow attacks.

I'm not sure what level you're starting at, but if i were to do what you want, this is how i'd do it, going straight Ranger. If you were to throw in some fighter levels, it may make it easier, but thats a whole different story.
stezerok846
03-17-07, 01:12 AM wow! Thank you guys so much! this is the most help I've gotten in a while! So I think that I will go with a bow/TWF hybrid, as I like the idea of a generalist, and I also want to do a bit of experimenting (plus I think it will just be plain cool). So I'll check out the feat trees, and figure out the best way to combine the feats per level, and the ranger combat style, to maximize efficiency. If there are any suggestions on how to do this (I know we already have a couple), or any suggestions on support feats (ones not directly related to either of those trees) they would be greatly appreciated! Thanks again so much!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stezerok846 03-15-07, 11:43 PM	As an extremely new player, I wanted to know if I could get some general tips on character design. I've decided upon a human/ranger mix which allows for pleanty of feats and skills and the like. So now in case anyone tells me that I should build the character depending on the campaign, all I can say is that we havent yet decided on the campaign and so we are all working on characters who are capable in any campaign type, which means not only a well rounded individual but a well rounded party. So. Now that thats over with, my initial thought was that I really wanted to create a character with the two-weapon fighting style. However I cant deny that we do need a bowman of some sort. Therefore I wanted to devote the rangers special feat combat style to the bow, and then devote my actual feats that I gain throughout the game to the two-weapon style. Does this sound plausable? I'm looking in particular for a character who is fast, and who can stand back and shoot before eventually charging in with a flurry of attacks. Are there any suggestions for a good combination of skills/feats to this end, or does this whole idea just simply not work? Any help would be appreciated!
Aminvelos 03-16-07, 12:30 AM	Well, my first inclination is a no but that might not be the case? What are your stats, and if you havent rolled them how are they going to be decided? Secondly, are there any vets/experienced players in the game. What books are allowed? Once these three questions are answered I can post a much more detailed answer.
Comus 03-16-07, 12:54 AM	I think it'd be fine to go for both TWF and archery. You'll want a high Dex for both, so that's one plus (no extra stat requirements). You might want to consider Weapon Finesse, as I'm sure your Dex will be higher than your strength. Ranger's Favored Enemy bonus works well with both strategies, too. And, unlike a pure bow-spec ranger, you'll have some melee tricks for when you go into a dungeon. Sounds like a fine plan to me. And simple enough that it won't take a lot of shoehorning to make it fit. Just take all the TWF tree as you qualify for the feats, maybe weapon finesse, and maybe consider Imp. Initiative (you said you wanted him to be fast) and maybe one or two of the Improved <combat maneuver> feats, like Improved Disarm or Improved Trip.
stezerok846 03-16-07, 12:55 AM	ok, well. No I havent rolled stats yet as we havent all sat down so that they could see. However based off of the set up of the rangers skills and the like, I would say that in rank of highest to lowest it would probably be 1. int 2. wis* 3. dex 4. str 5. con 6. cha Also, no there are no vets/experienced players, asides from the person who we found to be our DM (however thats still sort of tenative...) And as of what I know just the basic book: PHB, DMG, MM, and MIC (the Magic Item Compendium we dont have yet, but I'd love to get my hands on one lol) I believe that one of our players may have Frostburn I believe its called... but I dont know if we are actually going to use it. I hope that is what you were asking for... *depending on how useful it really is, I may change wis to 4th, and move dex and str both up a slot on the scale.
Comus 03-16-07, 01:27 AM	I'd probably put the stats more in this order: 1. Dexterity (AC, attack rolls (with ranged weapons, also with certain melee weapons if you have the right feat), Reflex saves, Dex requirements for TWF feat tree) 2. Strength (attack rolls with most melee weapons, damage with melee weapons and compound bows) 3. Constitution (HP, fort saves - switch this and Wisdom if wisdom would be below 12 by bumping it to fourth place) 4. Wisdom (spells [don't need much of it, though, as a ranger], Will saves) 5. Intelligence (Rangers have a lot of skill points, so you aren't relying on much in the way of bonus skills) 6. Charisma (Somethin' has to go last, and for this character it's CHA)
Dragonsblood 03-16-07, 01:51 AM	If you want to use your feats on TWF because it fits your concept, that's fine. But TWF is not very effective. You'd be much better off picking feats that make you a better archer and only going into melee when it's absolutely necessary. I think in practice you're going to see how much your archery out paces your melee damage, and for much less risk. As for stats, put your highest score into dex, and decent scores into str, con, and wis. You only need a 14 wisdom to be able to cast all of your spells. Cha and int aren't as important.
danielinthewolvesden 03-16-07, 03:28 AM	I would go for either not both. There is Improved Toughness. Improved Buckler Defence (if you are going TWF). PBshot (archer) Precise shot (archer) Iron Will.
AffableDoomwalker 03-16-07, 04:56 AM	Balancing between two fighting styles is tricky, usually an auxiliary weapon is a good idea, but you're probably better off finding a niche and sticking to it. If you absolutely, positively want to try out a mix'n'match ranger, I'd suggest you chose the Two-Weapon Fighting path, and picked up Dodge and Mobility at level 1. Following that, Weapon Finesse, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot... as well as Improved Precise Shot, if you can hack it with your Dex (19 needed), but that kills almost all your Feats from 1-20. As for stats, if you're going on point buy I'd recommend: (in order from most to least important) Dexterity - To Hit with Ranged, and huge effect on TWF Constitution - Zee Healths Strength - At least 10, at most 12 - Composite Longbow = joy! Wisdom - Methinks you need 14 in order to access all your spells Intelligence - Enough so you can talk right Charisma - Not really all that important for reclusive forest-dwellers I'd say you could make a fairly successful skirmisher with that kinda setup, and I can imagine it would be interesting to play; just seems that one way or the other you'd end up playing one role or the other, and never really utilizing both in any one situation, "limited flexibility" is a term that comes to mind.
Genetic 03-16-07, 09:13 AM	You could always drop 2 levels in fighter as well. That gives you 2 extra feats to play with.
kelvinaw273 03-16-07, 11:17 AM	Well Ranger is a good choice as a generalist character, it means that you can adapt the charatcer as you go to the campaign as it evolves. There are other options that can help you a great deal, and as a ranger you can multi-class. If you want a real flurry of attacks, take some levels in monk and the Ascetic Hunter feat ;)
Comus 03-16-07, 11:49 AM	If you want to use your feats on TWF because it fits your concept, that's fine. But TWF is not very effective. TWF is not very effective... without bonus damage. Rangers get it through Favored Enemy Bonuses.
Tonil 03-16-07, 06:34 PM	I currently play a bow focused ranger/fighter. Here are a few suggestions. They may not work for all ranged warriors, but they worked for me: If you focus on ranged: The four most useful ranged feats for my character have been point-blank, rapid shot, precise shot, and improved precise shot. I tend to take full-round attacks from close range to support my melee comrades. So I recommend that if you take the ranged style you definitely take precise shot, and point blank if you will be close to the action. Point Blank is also a prerequisite for some other feats. If you decide to do both ranged and TWF: Improved Precise Shot has more prerequisites than Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, but if it is part of your ranger style you do not need the prereqs. If you do not think you will meet the prerequisites, then take the ranged style and add TWF feats in other ways. Why I suggest you take the ranged combat style but not do TWF: The primary benefit of using a bow at low levels is the extra attack from rapid shot and the range. The downside is the inability to boost your damage at will; such as with spells, like Bull's Strength, or power attack. If you compare rapid shot with TWF they are roughly on par with each other, the only question is how much Str. bonus you can add to your damage. Both styles have the same mix: more attacks with less damage than two-handed fighting. For this reason I agree with AffableDoomwalker above: use a two-handed weapon like a greatsword instead of TWF. If you want extra attacks in each round use the bow. If you need lots of damage you can get that with a two-handed weapon and power attack. Lastly, you can take feats like Combat Expertise or Improved Trip (or whatever) in place of the TWF feats. One last note: My character is a ranger, but in order to give me enough ranged bonus to hit and damage I took a four level dip in fighter. I was able to add Precise Shot and Weapon Specialization by tenth level (Rngr 6/Ftr 4), but felt like I was just keeping up with a fighter with two-handed weapon and power attack. Of course I often take no damage in combat, so that is a bonus. This is from my experience, your mileage may vary
Dragonsblood 03-16-07, 10:07 PM	TWF is not very effective... without bonus damage. Rangers get it through Favored Enemy Bonuses. Favored enemy bonuses are nice, but hardly enough to make TWF effective (and obviously not if you're not fighting a favored enemy). Sneak attack makes it worth it though.
SilverFoxKnows 03-17-07, 12:29 AM	If you do end up going after both styles pick a light weapon for melee. That way any melee Feats you take count for both- Weapon Finese, Weapon Focus (not often suggested by the numbers crunchers but it will reduce the penalites for TWF to -1/-1), Improved Critical. I'd go with short swords, good crit range and common enough to find a magical one. I like the idea of being able to do both styles. Have fun with it.
foxtrothacker 03-17-07, 12:39 AM	First off, i wanna say that human/ranger is one of my favorites, good choice! =P Now, onto the good stuff. Both tree's of feats (Archery and Two-Weapon Fighting) require high dexterity scores to take the feats; so make sure you put at least a 16 into dex if you can. I highly recommend you take Weapon finesse as soon as you can. This will help you with your ability to hit with melee weapons. With weapon finesse, you don't have to put as many points into str, maybe only a 12 or 14. At first level, i recommend Point Blank Shot and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 2nd level choose a Archery (the beter feats have prerequisites such as dodge, mobility, and you may not have room/time to take those feats) and you'll get rapid shot. At 3rd level take weapon finesse. 1: Point Blank Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting 2: Rapid Shot 3: Weapon Finesse 4: Put a Stat point into Dexterity 5: 6: Manyshot, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting I think the above would be the best way to go about what you want. Make sure you buy 2 light weapons so weapon finesse will work on both and buy a Compound Bow to add your Strength damage to your bow attacks. I'm not sure what level you're starting at, but if i were to do what you want, this is how i'd do it, going straight Ranger. If you were to throw in some fighter levels, it may make it easier, but thats a whole different story.
stezerok846 03-17-07, 01:12 AM	wow! Thank you guys so much! this is the most help I've gotten in a while! So I think that I will go with a bow/TWF hybrid, as I like the idea of a generalist, and I also want to do a bit of experimenting (plus I think it will just be plain cool). So I'll check out the feat trees, and figure out the best way to combine the feats per level, and the ranger combat style, to maximize efficiency. If there are any suggestions on how to do this (I know we already have a couple), or any suggestions on support feats (ones not directly related to either of those trees) they would be greatly appreciated! Thanks again so much!