Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sunic_Flames 08-29-07, 10:50 AM	Long story short: I have reason to believe a character in game will try and attack allies, aka the rest of the group. I for one, will not initiate hostilities. But if he should turn on an ally, I want to embarrass him as much as possible without killing him to teach him a lesson. My current plan is to dominate him and boss him around for the next 9 days or so (scroll) beginning right after his first attempt, but I feel I could really do better. I just can't think of a more creative way. And no, out of game resolutions for in game issues are not an option. While removing him would technically work, until he actually tries something it's all speculation. This is not an evil game, just another example of CN done wrong on this person's part. So betrayal is not meant as par for the course, but it's not likely to be met with a trite boot from the game either. In game consequences for in game actions. Besides, he'd likely rather leave than become my cohort's cohort anyways. :P
Empirate 08-29-07, 11:39 AM	As you've asked for an in game solution, more precisely, for an in game humiliation (no less!), we need a little more background. Who's your clandestine foe? Who are you? Who are the other PCs? Any notable NPCs hanging around? Classes, levels, notable equipment, capabilities, player experience? Normally, I'd suggest "talk to her/him", but as you stated you didn't want that, you'll need to specify a whole lot more: Are you OK with the PC, or with the PLAYER being humiliated? Do you want to be seen as innocent or not? Do you just want to be well prepared for the "inescapable" betrayal, or do you want to launch a preemptive strike? Do you want it to hurt, to REALLY HURT, or even to permanently leave some hurtful scars? Do you think killing the PC (if it comes to that) is OK? Think along these lines: Humiliation can be physical, psychological, or sociological. If he attacks you and you beat the crap out of him, then heal him after some telling off, then that's physical. If you rather Fly out of reach and taunt him that he'll never find you unprepared, then Polymorph him into a squirrel that gets admonishing words of advice every day, only to turn him back into a human some weeks later, then that is a psychological humiliation. You could go one step further and find a person he really, really cares about and make it so his treacherous actions destroy his relationship with this person. Or find something really embarassing about him and tell the local bards' guild. Or arrange a situation that looks like he committed some rather heinous AND embarassing crime (stole the Merchant Lord's finest steed for intimate purposes, robbed an erotica shop, smuggled a very personal message to a jailed pederast...). These would not only be psychological, but also sociological. What suits your style? EDITed for spelling.
1red13 08-29-07, 12:40 PM	Sounds very similar to other threads i've read. The only suggestion would be to make sure your message gets across with whatever you do. More often than not a problem player responds very poorly to having their character humiliated or dominated in your example. It often degenerates into a veiled conspiracy between the two players, each looking for the least provocation to screw over the other character. This soon leads to a whole melodrama that consumes the entire gaming session. It sounds like the very beginnings of gaming group degeneration. Be prepared for the fallout because most of the time its petty and unpleasant
RobbyPants 08-29-07, 12:45 PM	Well, just as a bit of a disclaimer, I think the best solution might be an out-of-character chat, to minimize hurt feeling. But, if you're already reconciled with that and want to humiliate the PC, I'll continue ;) I guess I'd have to know more about what you're capable of before I could do any specifics. Here are a few vague ideas: Nonlethal damage - This is nice in that you don't kill the offending PC, and it could be akin to slapping them. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Tombstone or not, but I love the scene where Wyatt keeps slapping the card dealer. The dealer gets all mad and threatening, and Wyatt just keeps slapping him as sort of a challenge. So, it might be funny if the PC tries to attack the group, and the group just slaps him into submission. Save-or-loses - Akin to the Dominate you suggested, any number of save or loses could be funny. A failed save means the end of the fight. You might have fun polymorphing him into something pathetic with Baleful Polymorph. If you're low enough level (i.e. the PC has four or less Hit Dice), you could use Sleep. There's also a 3rd level equivalent that effects up to ten HD. Scenes come to mind where people write on someones face who's asleep. Strip him of his gear - Once he's defeated, you could take all his good items, and only return them if he's behaved well. You could talk all condecending to him once you're in full control. Of course, you could seriously torque the player off doing this. Turn him in - Lastly, you could always loot and arest him. If you had some "proof", he might face assault and/or attempted murder charges (or their D&D equivalent), effectively removing him from the game in a non-violent fashion. This may or may not get a message across to the player. I guess it depends on how far you really want to take this, and how you think the player (not the PC) will react. If done right, it could be a deterant against future violence. If not, it might make him foster feelings of resentment, and might lead to more hostilities.
Ack 08-29-07, 01:28 PM	Note that, no matter what the reason for the character humiliation, the player is likely to take it personally. And that can give rise to all sorts of problems, both in and out of game. Especially if he's the sort of chaotic-stupid dick who uses alignment as an excuse to attack party members in-game.
green_girl 08-29-07, 01:49 PM	In these instances, if OOC conversations can't produce a good result, I'm going to use violence.If he attacks a party member, you can attack him in defense of the party member he attacked. In game that seems reasonable. But if you don't want to kill him, have him arrested and sent to jail. Then don't rescue him or bail him out until he begs for mercy and promises to behave properly.
Zealot_Reborn 08-29-07, 02:37 PM	as an avid CN player, i'm going to come in supporting the CN player in this situation. If you're basing your prejudice on the fact that he's CN rather than basing your assumption that he's a pker on in-game actions, then don't be surprised when you're horribly wrong about him killing any party members. Now, here's some questions, based on personal experiences involving inter-party conflict i've had to deal with by being CN. Do the other members of your party think he's going to attack any of the party members, or is this primarily a personal paranoia of yours? You may be misinterpreting his actions. If this is based on some long-standing in-game feud, are there out-of-game conflicts? If so, drop them. Immediatly. Chances are, the CN player will have already wanted to drop the feud. So just drop it, leave it alone, and don't jump on the CN player for doing something chaotic. Ask the CN player's reasoning for his actions. If he says either 'just for fun' or gives a humorous, backwards story of how it helps the party directly or indirectly, then he's probably playing CN just fine. Has the CN player done anything to harm anyone in the party in any way? If so, what? Does it cause any actual problems within the game for those players, i.e. lost equipment, lack of gold, or is it just spreading rumors among npcs? Come on, now, stealing is one thing, spreading funny rumors about other pcs is just for fun and games. Does the pc use the term "(such and such) is serious business"? If so, no longer take anything the player says personally. Don't imagine yourself infallible in your judgement of CN. If the CN player is playing 'chaotic stoopid', how do you think CN should play? Chances are, you might be describing what isn't actually CN at all. The fact that the CN player has you paranoid about what he might do next is probably a good indicator that he is playing CN correctly, and you're just assuming he's going to do something stupid like attacking the other party members. Maybe i'm wrong; maybe the guy is an idiot. But i'm just saying, don't try to humiliate him because he's CN. Instead, assume he has enough sense to be a benefit to the party, and eventually, you'll realize that this guy may be doing some good after all.
Sunic_Flames 08-29-07, 02:50 PM	As you've asked for an in game solution, more precisely, for an in game humiliation (no less!), we need a little more background. Who's your clandestine foe? Who are you? Who are the other PCs? Any notable NPCs hanging around? Classes, levels, notable equipment, capabilities, player experience? My foe would be a CN grappler type character, not very well designed mechanically and therefore, little threat. It's more the principle of the thing. He wouldn't likely be targeting me, but another PC who is a spellcaster. Everyone is level 13, except the cohort (leadership) who is 11. Normally, I'd suggest "talk to her/him", but as you stated you didn't want that, you'll need to specify a whole lot more: Are you OK with the PC, or with the PLAYER being humiliated? Do you want to be seen as innocent or not? Do you just want to be well prepared for the "inescapable" betrayal, or do you want to launch a preemptive strike? Do you want it to hurt, to REALLY HURT, or even to permanently leave some hurtful scars? Do you think killing the PC (if it comes to that) is OK? I'm wanting to teach the character a lesson. The player has little sense, but I use out of game means for dealing with out of game actions. What I want is to stop him, the moment after he reveals his betrayal. If that moment never comes, that's fine. If he tries anything, he'll get exactly one chance to succeed, (in killing a PC) and then the counterstrike. Both I and my character are vengeful, however he isn't likely to be struck down unless he persists after that. Actually killing him would not be an issue, but this would not be a first resort. In fact killing him would be easy as again, mechanical weakness. But I'd prefer to try other approaches first. Sounds very similar to other threads i've read. The only suggestion would be to make sure your message gets across with whatever you do. *snip* Drama doesn't phase me. as an avid CN player, i'm going to come in supporting the CN player in this situation. If you're basing your prejudice on the fact that he's CN rather than basing your assumption that he's a pker on in-game actions, then don't be surprised when you're horribly wrong about him killing any party members. *snip* I'm not singling him out as suspect for being CN, though doing so in a lawful game is rather odd. I'm singling him out because he keeps talking out of game to another player in my presence talking about how he could get the other person's character and kill them, etc, that he was kinda funny about mages, and so forth. Essentially going into detail, expressing ability and intent to target the mage player, just because he's a mage. Nothing bad will happen to him until after he attempts to target a party member. If he's just talking like that (why?) he's fine. And it's either humilate him or kill him outright. Just letting him strangle the mage is not an option. As a last resort, I can kill him in 1 round, no problem. But I'd prefer not to have to kill another party member, even if they do turn traitor.
metalmayhem80110 08-29-07, 03:11 PM	Ummmmm from your last post I would say that you're.... Meta-Gaming! You're basing your actions on out of character chat. Your in-game character has no reason to want to do this... As far as he is concerned you have fought side-by-side for a long time, and you are good friends. Lol my group always talks like that out of game, just for fun. We never act upon it. I'm siding with the CN guy, he is just being random. And if that makes the party paranoid, all the better :D
Sunic_Flames 08-29-07, 03:27 PM	Ummmmm from your last post I would say that you're.... Meta-Gaming! You're basing your actions on out of character chat. Your in-game character has no reason to want to do this... As far as he is concerned you have fought side-by-side for a long time, and you are good friends. Lol my group always talks like that out of game, just for fun. We never act upon it. I'm siding with the CN guy, he is just being random. And if that makes the party paranoid, all the better :D It's metagaming to thwart him after he attacks the party? So I guess the characters can't see their 'friend' choking their other friend... :rolleyes: And how do you know they've fought side by side for a while? Maybe they just met? Maybe his superiors told him to watch that one? Assumptions are bad, mmkay? What'd be metagaming (and chaotic evil) is to blow him away as a standard action before he pulls anything. Which is not my aim. If he attacks an ally, the next action will be to dominate him. If he was forced to by an enemy dominate, I believe that would thwart the spell, get him back on our side, after which it can be dismissed or dispelled asap. If he did it on his own, he gets to play servant a few days while learning the proper way to deal with allies, aka the not attacking them way. If this makes him learn his lesson, nothing else happens because of me (though other PCs/NPCs may take exception still). If he tries a second time, subdual beatdown, then take him to be arrested, revive him and tell him he will never catch me offguard, or just beat the crap out of him and leave him there (he won't stay unconscious forever, even if he takes a thousand subdual damage). Third try? He dies, plain and simple. I believe that's a suitably forgiving approach to take.
Zealot_Reborn 08-29-07, 03:39 PM	see, now that i know the situation, that he's talking constantly about not liking mages, getting people to kill eachother, etc, you're right, he's not being a very good CN. I've done CN in lawful games, and trust me, it's fun, but IF you do it right and don't TRY to break the laws. Ok, so here's what you do. keep a couple scrolls of dominate, hold person, etc. prepared at all times. such spells are very situational, so its easy to justify carrying around scrolls rather than wasting spell slots. The minute the character tries to grapple the mage, don't attack yet; you can simply grapple for the sake of grappling, and not do any damage. joining the grapple to get him off is an appropriate response. However, when he starts doing damage, then you drop a hold person spell, and when the spell's about to run out you do a dominate, and have the character help the mage stand up, pick up the mage's things for him, then act like the mage's mount.
TwistedFate 08-29-07, 05:28 PM	Ok, so here's what you do. keep a couple scrolls of dominate, hold person, etc. prepared at all times. such spells are very situational, so its easy to justify carrying around scrolls rather than wasting spell slots. The minute the character tries to grapple the mage, don't attack yet; you can simply grapple for the sake of grappling, and not do any damage. joining the grapple to get him off is an appropriate response. However, when he starts doing damage, then you drop a hold person spell, and when the spell's about to run out you do a dominate, and have the character help the mage stand up, pick up the mage's things for him, then act like the mage's mount. Elegant. I like it.
Voran 08-29-07, 06:41 PM	In my experience, this never works out 'in game'. Not without turning into something messy 'out of game'. Be wary. The most logical, well thought out IC intended plan, isn't a given.
Ack 08-29-07, 06:54 PM	No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.
Zealot_Reborn 08-29-07, 06:59 PM	and no enemy survives first contact with the shooty end of my wand of fireballs.
Sunic_Flames 08-29-07, 07:03 PM	In my experience, this never works out 'in game'. Not without turning into something messy 'out of game'. Be wary. The most logical, well thought out IC intended plan, isn't a given. Maybe. But the problem with CN as CS characters is they think their actions will have no consequences. By reacting realistically, this is disproven. People take exception to lethal force being used on them, or even nonlethal. If his attitude can be changed, this would be the way. If not, nothing would work anyways. On a side note, death by Magic Missile is a humorous way of doing it if it comes to kill or be killed.
Ack 08-29-07, 07:06 PM	and no enemy survives first contact with the shooty end of my wand of fireballs. Depends on the enemy :D
dknight100 08-29-07, 07:13 PM	Depends on the enemy :D I assume Zealot does his best to stay good friends with fire elementals, red dragons, fire giants and such :P
Oregwath 08-29-07, 07:18 PM	I will admit that my chars all act like a complete jerk after an in party attack. I believe that it stretches credibility to the extreme to believe that a group can continue to work together smoothly after such an event. I normally treat the offender like little more then a prisoner. They will insist to stand watch with the one who attacked, making it clear that he/she doesn't trust the other char. If the attacker so much as sneezes toward the party, my char will draw their weapons and stand alert. It takes many months of in game contrition before my chars will start to trust them again. All this, and I still feel that it is metagaming, as most people would flat out refuse to continue travelling with someone who has proven that they would attack their companions. But I feel it is a comprimise, if the player still wants to play his/her attacker, then I won't quit the game, I will just try to stay as true to the actions someone would take in this situation as possible.
danielinthewolvesden 08-29-07, 08:05 PM	"Never try to solve an OOC problem IC". 99% of the time it is a jerk player running a jerk character. So why not sit down with him before it happens and discuss it like adults?
Ack 08-30-07, 04:44 AM	"Listen, from the way you've been talking out of game over the last few sessions, I get the impression you're gonna be trying to kill off the mage. No, wait, hear me out. I just want you to know that if you just up and try this in front of the group, my character's gonna have to stop you. And he can. You do know that, don't you? Now, I don't want this to go player versus player, but if your character starts it, my character will finish it. Yeah, I know that if your character isn't attacking my character, it isn't really any of my business - but my character doesn't see it that way. Just like your character thinks it's a good idea to attack Phil's character, even though Phil's a nice guy and you've got nothing against him. Get what I mean? Right, okay, you go think about it for a while. Yup, no problem, see you at the game."
Thubby 08-30-07, 04:54 AM	belt of gender switching b.o.g.s., a funny solution to just about anything.
Sunic_Flames 08-30-07, 07:48 AM	belt of gender switching b.o.g.s., a funny solution to just about anything. He'd probably like that. :banghead: Only reason I'm being nice about it is because I think a neutral with good leanings character won't just blow him away at the first offense. Otherwise, the cohort alone could kill him in one round, guaranteed. Were I playing evil, neutral with evil leanings, or even just neutral... Also funny to mention if he were to attack the party, he'd have a hard time actually doing any harm as just about everything he'd try would have little to no effect except grappling... but he doesn't have any real grappling options so that doesn't either. But they *jabs thumb at characters* wouldn't necessarily know that.
Empirate 08-30-07, 08:39 AM	Well, if he is so incompetent and still does try anything, you shouldn't have a problem humiliating him. Let him grab the spellcaster, Hold Person or Dominate, pry him loose. Ask him "What da fook was dat aboot? Comeon, getta grip! Solve yer disputes lika man grown, sonny: talk it oot!" This alone should suffice to show him he can't do jack to any of your group. Your character wouldn't necessarily know that the CN (or CS) guy was actually trying to do serious harm. If he tries it again, however, you should get a good idea what's up. After that, you should give him a good talking to in-game. Tell him what you are going to do to him if he "misbehaves" again: Turn him into a snail, dominate him to be the pack animal, suggest that he eats his own feces... or even kill him. The important bit is, if he has it coming, it's way better if he also sees it coming. Gets the message across to the player.
Fiery_Overlord 08-30-07, 11:42 AM	After you finally have to cast Dominate these would be a good list of commands. 1st Dominate Command: "Listen to me." Now that you have his attention and he can't attack anyone or do anything but listen to you say this. "Your outbursts and this betrayal are no longer tolerable. I am of good mind to expel you from our group as we can no longer trust you and without trust all our lives are at risk. Frankly I think you are an idiot, we've helped you and supported you and this is how you repay us? Now because I believe in being fair..." 2nd Dominate Command: "Truthfully explain without any trickery why we should not expel you." Now if his answer doesn't satisfy you give him the the final command. If you really believe the character (and player) have learned their lesson then all is well and dispel the dominate. 3rd Dominate Command: "Leave all the gear and wealth you've acquired since you have been with us on the ground in front of you and go as far away as possible!" Divide you his ill gotten possessions among those of your party and ask the DM if the player will be allowed to create a new character. Being accepted by a party of adventurers is a privilege not a right. Also suggest CN isn't an appropriate choice for a beginning playing.
BW0222 08-30-07, 01:32 PM	Sunic_Flames, My current plan is to... And what do you think he is going to do in response to that? Do you honestly think he'll see "the error of his ways" and start playing nice? He is already willing to attack other characters, so isn't it far more likely that he'll then attack you, let you die in combat, set your familiar on fire, or a half million other things to make the game equally unfun for you? Be realistic... if he is willing to start the 'hostilities' there is no reason to think he won't continue them. You know where this is going. The solution to all this is simple. Hold a meeting of all the other characters ... "Folks, I've called this meeting because I believe Gort is about to turn on us. I don't trust him. He is irrational, threatens people, and gets us in all sorts of trouble, so I'd rather not risk my neck adventuring with him anymore. I vote we kick him out of the party. All in favor? ... Ok, Gort is gone. Let's pack up our things tonight and slip out of the inn. We'll go explore the ruins to the north. I'll give the inn keeper five gold to tell Gort that we said we were heading south." Then just continue playing with the group. When it becomes perfectly obvious that Gort can't continue playing... take the discussion out of character and ask the DM and players how they would like to handle the situation -- new character, Gort does something to re-earn the trust of the party, the DM runs Gort separately, etc.? However, make it clear that if players with to play characters which no one would want adventuring with them, that the same thing is going to happen. This saves a lot of time and hard feelings. It takes the matter straight to where it is going to end-up anyway -- without weeks of roleplaying attacking, threatening, or humiliating each other. It is also far more logical -- soldiers don't go out on missions with lunatics who they think might attack their own squad.
Sunic_Flames 08-30-07, 04:45 PM	Sunic_Flames, And what do you think he is going to do in response to that? Do you honestly think he'll see "the error of his ways" and start playing nice? He is already willing to attack other characters, so isn't it far more likely that he'll then attack you, let you die in combat, set your familiar on fire, or a half million other things to make the game equally unfun for you? My character is capable of fending for himself. If he attacks mine he will be smacked around nonlethally and made a joke of, and if he persists killed effortlessly. Also, I don't have a familiar. Be realistic... if he is willing to start the 'hostilities' there is no reason to think he won't continue them. You know where this is going. He fails epically at designing characters in general, much less taking down one of mine. If he persists, the only course is his death. He cannot win again me, much less the rest of the party at once. If he comes back with a new character and tries again, he will die again. Though it's more likely the DM would just boot him at that point. The solution to all this is simple. Hold a meeting of all the other characters ... "Folks, I've called this meeting because I believe Gort is about to turn on us. I don't trust him. He is irrational, threatens people, and gets us in all sorts of trouble, so I'd rather not risk my neck adventuring with him anymore. I vote we kick him out of the party. All in favor? ... Ok, Gort is gone. Let's pack up our things tonight and slip out of the inn. We'll go explore the ruins to the north. I'll give the inn keeper five gold to tell Gort that we said we were heading south." The signs are out of game, that would be blatant metagaming. This saves a lot of time and hard feelings. It takes the matter straight to where it is going to end-up anyway -- without weeks of roleplaying attacking, threatening, or humiliating each other. It is also far more logical -- soldiers don't go out on missions with lunatics who they think might attack their own squad. It won't last that long. He either won't try anything in game (likely considering, see below) or he will and be put in his place, one way or the other. The reason this was happening is he was using his mage slayer feat as an excuse to act funny towards mages. Then he decided he wanted to be able to use a wand of expeditious retreat and had his character redone just to take a level of bard. Then he realized mage slayer messes with that, likely he had that removed too. So it may not be an issue anymore, but if it is, he can't do much. Outclassed.
High Octane 08-30-07, 04:55 PM	Please understand the difference between character problems and player problems. This is the latter.
Zealot_Reborn 08-30-07, 07:39 PM	it's a player problem that will soon develop into a character problem the minute the grappler character starts dealing damage. I say, talk is talk. His actions in game will speak volumes, so ignore his blabbering out of game, and ready some nonlethal immobilizing spells.
danielinthewolvesden 08-30-07, 07:49 PM	My character is capable of fending for himself. If he attacks mine he will be smacked around nonlethally and made a joke of, and if he persists killed effortlessly. Also, I don't have a familiar. He fails epically at designing characters in general, much less taking down one of mine. If he persists, the only course is his death. He cannot win again me, much less the rest of the party at once. If he comes back with a new character and tries again, he will die again. Though it's more likely the DM would just boot him at that point. The signs are out of game, that would be blatant metagaming. So, you current PC can beat his, eh? So he attacks and you kill him. Ok, then he comes back with a new PC that kills your's in your sleep. Assassin with CdG= I do not care how tough your PC is, he is dead, dead, dead. So then you come back with another character and slay him, and then he...... well, you see my point. If all it is, is OOC conduct- than rather than try and be a "tough guy" then try sitting you both down & talking to him like two adults. If that does not work then do like BW0222 suggested: "The solution to all this is simple. Hold a meeting of all the other characters ... "Folks, I've called this meeting because I believe Gort is about to turn on us. I don't trust him. He is irrational, threatens people, and gets us in all sorts of trouble, so I'd rather not risk my neck adventuring with him anymore. I vote we kick him out of the party. All in favor? ... Ok, Gort is gone. Let's pack up our things tonight and slip out of the inn. We'll go explore the ruins to the north. I'll give the inn keeper five gold to tell Gort that we said we were heading south." Killing his character will solve nothing.
BilopTheFleshwarper 08-31-07, 01:18 AM	Easy Solution = stab with brick. player... character... both... you choose.
Sunic_Flames 08-31-07, 09:51 AM	So, you current PC can beat his, eh? So he attacks and you kill him. Ok, then he comes back with a new PC that kills your's in your sleep. Assassin with CdG= I do not care how tough your PC is, he is dead, dead, dead. So then you come back with another character and slay him, and then he...... well, you see my point. Who says the DM will let him back? How is he getting in the campaign with an evil character, especially after abusing CN? How is he dealing with whoever's on watch? (Hmmm, one ally turned on us, we better watch anyone we don't know that well...) Assuming he does make it this far: How is he getting his death attack DC up? Fortitude strong, high con, save boosting effects. He'd have to heavily optimize just to make me fail on a 2. The CdG is more likely to work, though he'd probably be an idiot and do it with a dagger or something. Does death attack even work against 100% fortification, and yes he'd be sleeping in his armor, it has the restful property?
Zealot_Reborn 08-31-07, 10:13 AM	someone seems paranoid about random assassins :D But for all these arguements against killing the guy, if i interpreted Sunic's intentions correctly, he's not going to kill the problem character. He's going to humiliate him. Then use one of his dominate commands to send the character on his merry way, pending dm approval. No bloodshed (hopefully), no one loses any hp out of it, and its about as nonviolent as you can get.
Sunic_Flames 08-31-07, 10:45 AM	someone seems paranoid about random assassins :D But for all these arguements against killing the guy, if i interpreted Sunic's intentions correctly, he's not going to kill the problem character. He's going to humiliate him. Then use one of his dominate commands to send the character on his merry way, pending dm approval. No bloodshed (hopefully), no one loses any hp out of it, and its about as nonviolent as you can get. Very defensive character, meant to be prepared for anything he can think of, and protect those allies less durable than himself. High AC/saves/easily ready for battle... He can draw his weapon as a free action, stand as a swift action, and deal with being attacked in the night with the rest of his actions. Cautiously valorous. I wouldn't kill him unless forced to though. (dominate somehow fails, he's about to kill someone and he can't be dominated in time, etc)
Kraz 08-31-07, 10:50 AM	No bloodshed (hopefully), no one loses any hp out of it, and its about as nonviolent as you can get. Except for the wizard of course. :P Ok, I'm in the same group as Sunic is(I'm the groups cleric) but because of college I haven't had much time to talk with the other players as often as I'd like. Anyway, after hearing about the problem, and talking to the player, I've figured out somewhat why he's going to do what he's going to do. The DM for the game has made some small class changes, some house rules, etc. The two that seem to **** this guy off the most is the fact that the DM rolled all the craft feats in the PHB into one feat, and changed intelligence so that the skill points you earn from it are retroactive. These two changes alone seem to have cause this guy to believe that the game is heavily favored towards wizards(he's of the beliefe that only casters need int. :rolleyes: ) and as such has built his character specifically to kill the groups wizard. As for what to do about him if he does do it, I'm thinking of keeping freedom of movement, and mark of justice ready just incase he does try something.
Phrennzy 08-31-07, 11:50 AM	This is like watching a train wreck in slow motion: You want to do something, but know that anything you say or do will have no effect, and deep down, you want to see the carnage.
danielinthewolvesden 08-31-07, 12:34 PM	Who says the DM will let him back? How is he getting in the campaign with an evil character, especially after abusing CN? How is he dealing with whoever's on watch? (Hmmm, one ally turned on us, we better watch anyone we don't know that well...) If the DM will not let him back in, then the DM should stop this sort of activity before it happens.
BW0222 08-31-07, 01:58 PM	Sunic_Flames, My character is capable of fending for himself. If he attacks mine he will be smacked around nonlethally and made a joke of, and if he persists killed effortlessly. That is an extremely short-sighted attitude. First, do you really want to spend the next months of the game with him figuring out how to kill your character and your character figuring out how not to be killed? Second, do the other players and DM what to go through this? Third, he can't kill you in your sleep? He can't start attacking you in the middle of a combat? He can't wait until some combat where a ghoul paralysis you and then leave you for dead? He can't hire folks to kill you? He can't poison your food? Cut a rope when you are climbing a cliff? etc. He'll have plenty of chances to kill you if he wishes. Forth, he can't just make your lives miserable without attacking, killing, etc. you? He can't bad month you around town? He can't yell and scream in the dungeon so that you all fail your missions? He can't just stop sharing information and cause the party to fail? etc. He has already p'd you off to the point where you are posting how bad he is and spending your time worrying about it. Imagine how bad it could be if he spent as much time trying to ruin you are discussion him? Also, I don't have a familiar. How about a horse, a favorite barmaid, a favorite magical item, a reputation, an alignment, friends, family, honors, a guild, etc. I'm sure he can find something you enjoy in the game and ruin it for you. He's already doing a good enough job right now. He fails epically at designing characters in general, much less taking down one of mine. If he persists, the only course is his death. He cannot win again me, much less the rest of the party at once. If he comes back with a new character and tries again, he will die again. Though it's more likely the DM would just boot him at that point. Then why go through all this? Why spend weeks or months of wasted sessions if you know where this is going? Why not force him to decide right now if he wishes to play nice? First, there is a much better chance that he will see the error or his ways when faced immediate concequences. He is an idiot, the PCs vote him out of the party, he can't play. Cause = effect. Second, it means (whether he is kicked out or not), that you (and everyone else) doen't have to spend five or six sessions in PvP. You can play the adventure. Unless I'm wrong and you find it more fun to fight with each other, then your method simply prolongs the agony. Third, it is less likely to equal hard feelings. This person is presumably your friend? A simple, calm, "You're out of the party." (followed by out of character discussion on how to solve the issue) is a lot less likely to have lasting ill-will than a month or two of figuring out ways to #*#$ each other. The signs are out of game, that would be blatant metagaming. And what you are doing now isn't blatant metagaming? You are asking folks how your character can mess over someone else's character, because you (as a player) know he is going to mess with someone else? If metagaming saves player's time, presents hard feelings, saves friendships, etc. then by all means meta-game. Just say to the player, "If you do this, we'll vote you out of the party." It won't last that long. He either won't try anything in game (likely considering, see below) or he will and be put in his place, one way or the other. He is your friend and I'm certainly willing to accept that maybe you know him better than I do. Maybe you can threaten him into submission. Maybe he'll just sit there and happily take it. He is certainly an exception. Human nature says that even if you can brow-beat him into submission, he'll resent you for it. But do you really want to, if there is another way? Sure, he is being an idiot. However, "Because he is doing it to me." isn't a good arguement. Hopefully, he doesn't realize that he is being a jerk (or doesn't know how to roleplay well enough to avoid being one). In which case, as a friend, you are supposed to help him. Talk with him, explain the situation, educate him, etc. By attacking his character back, you are only reinforcing that bad behavior. He now sees issue as 'you are better at messing with/killing of his character' rather than he shouldn't be doing this in the first place. If he realizes that he is being a jerk, then he obviously doesn't care about whether he is ruining the game for others and you might wish to reconsider playing with him in the first place.
Zealot_Reborn 08-31-07, 02:09 PM	The two that seem to **** this guy off the most is the fact that the DM rolled all the craft feats in the PHB into one feat, and changed intelligence so that the skill points you earn from it are retroactive. These two changes alone seem to have cause this guy to believe that the game is heavily favored towards wizards(he's of the beliefe that only casters need int. :rolleyes: ) and as such has built his character specifically to kill the groups wizard. He's ****** about THAT? Umm.... why? If nothing else, that adjustment by the dm covers the glaring disadvantages of item creation, i.e. the extreme amount of feats necessary, and the xp penalties, and the cost to make them, and the in-game time commitment. If he's going to kill the mage because the dm made it easier for the mage to make this guy a belt of giant strength or something that could help him, the dude's an idiot. Seriously. Bravo to the dm for making that kind of decision and supporting item creation, wag of the finger to the guy who disagrees with the dm and couldn't see a good thing if it smacked him in the face.
Sunic_Flames 08-31-07, 02:58 PM	Sunic_Flames, That is an extremely short-sighted attitude. First, do you really want to spend the next months of the game with him figuring out how to kill your character and your character figuring out how not to be killed? Who says anything about months? He gets one try and one try only. If it doesn't work he won't have a chance to try again. That takes... 5 minutes game time? Second, do the other players and DM what to go through this? Not sure, ask em. One is already here. I'd imagine the DM at least isn't overly threatened or he'd just apply the boot and be done with it. Third, he can't kill you in your sleep? He can't start attacking you in the middle of a combat? He can't wait until some combat where a ghoul paralysis you and then leave you for dead? He can't hire folks to kill you? He can't poison your food? Cut a rope when you are climbing a cliff? etc. He'll have plenty of chances to kill you if he wishes. If he can somehow avoid whoever's on watch, he can try to. Most likely he won't. If he tries to attack me I will get 1-2 attacks before he can even try, and then he'll need a 20 to hit. I don't see how he could leave me for dead when there are other allies present. I'd be less threatened by NPCs than him. Ring of sustenance. What food? Boots of Flying. What rope? (and 20d6 won't kill me anyways, just hurt like hell) Mundane means just don't work that well at higher levels. Forth, he can't just make your lives miserable without attacking, killing, etc. you? He can't bad month you around town? He can't yell and scream in the dungeon so that you all fail your missions? He can't just stop sharing information and cause the party to fail? etc. He can be a problem in town, which might just lead to him being stranded in said town. If he does something stupid in dangerous territory, he's the most likely to pay for it with his life. If he goes sharing info, see town above. Either way he only really gets one shot. He has already p'd you off to the point where you are posting how bad he is and spending your time worrying about it. Imagine how bad it could be if he spent as much time trying to ruin you are discussion him? You severely overestimate the situation. Worry implies some fear that it won't work. I am supremely confident any PvP combat will end in a decisive victory for me/the party. I'm just trying to illustrate this point in the most certain way possible by getting ideas. How about a horse, a favorite barmaid, a favorite magical item, a reputation, an alignment, friends, family, honors, a guild, etc. I'm sure he can find something you enjoy in the game and ruin it for you. He's already doing a good enough job right now. No horse, he doesn't know who's close to me to target them, to steal something he'd have to get close to me... No go. And if he tries, he has one chance to get it right. Then why go through all this? Why spend weeks or months of wasted sessions if you know where this is going? Why not force him to decide right now if he wishes to play nice? Who says it will take that long? First, there is a much better chance that he will see the error or his ways when faced immediate concequences. He is an idiot, the PCs vote him out of the party, he can't play. Cause = effect. Logic does not apply to him. He is an embodiment of Chaotic Stupid OOC. Second, it means (whether he is kicked out or not), that you (and everyone else) doen't have to spend five or six sessions in PvP. You can play the adventure. Unless I'm wrong and you find it more fun to fight with each other, then your method simply prolongs the agony. Already addressed. Third, it is less likely to equal hard feelings. This person is presumably your friend? A simple, calm, "You're out of the party." (followed by out of character discussion on how to solve the issue) is a lot less likely to have lasting ill-will than a month or two of figuring out ways to #*#$ each other. Actually I find him annoying and try not to speak to him if I can help it. He's in because someone else invited him. And no, this is not the reason for this. If it was, I'd just wait till he wasn't looking (or even if he was) and unleash on him. End problem. And what you are doing now isn't blatant metagaming? You are asking folks how your character can mess over someone else's character, because you (as a player) know he is going to mess with someone else? My mental stats are in the low to mid teens. The characters in the game are going to have this high or higher. The spellcasters will likely have their primary stat in the mid 20s, for example. These are things they could convincingly decide on their own. But I the player might or might not be able to. If metagaming saves player's time, presents hard feelings, saves friendships, etc. then by all means meta-game. Just say to the player, "If you do this, we'll vote you out of the party." It would take longer to get through to him than to let him try and fail miserably. Trust me. He is your friend and I'm certainly willing to accept that maybe you know him better than I do. Maybe you can threaten him into submission. Maybe he'll just sit there and happily take it. He is certainly an exception. Human nature says that even if you can brow-beat him into submission, he'll resent you for it. Assumption. But do you really want to, if there is another way? Sure, he is being an idiot. However, "Because he is doing it to me." isn't a good arguement. Hopefully, he doesn't realize that he is being a jerk (or doesn't know how to roleplay well enough to avoid being one). In which case, as a friend, you are supposed to help him. Talk with him, explain the situation, educate him, etc. By attacking his character back, you are only reinforcing that bad behavior. He now sees issue as 'you are better at messing with/killing of his character' rather than he shouldn't be doing this in the first place. If he realizes that he is being a jerk, then he obviously doesn't care about whether he is ruining the game for others and you might wish to reconsider playing with him in the first place. Logic fails on him. If he lacks the basic common sense to realize attacking allies = bad IC despite an above average wisdom and OOC despite... well actually his wisdom is questionable there, nevermind. :P
Phrennzy 08-31-07, 03:57 PM	Long story short: I have reason to believe a character in game will try and attack allies, aka the rest of the group. I for one, will not initiate hostilities. But if he should turn on an ally, I want to embarrass him as much as possible without killing him to teach him a lesson. My current plan is to dominate him and boss him around for the next 9 days or so (scroll) beginning right after his first attempt, but I feel I could really do better. I just can't think of a more creative way. And no, out of game resolutions for in game issues are not an option. While removing him would technically work, until he actually tries something it's all speculation. While I don't agree with the course of action you are taking, and your smug invincibility compared to his described weak build points to a frustrating party imbalance, I thought I'd chime in with a revenge. Simple. Use the Dominate Scroll. Order him to fail his saving throw when you hit him with Baleful Polymorph, into a toad. It's permanent (until dispelled) and he keeps his mental stats (make sure you buff him with Will bonuses to ensure he keeps his mental stats). He can understand everything and everyone around him, without being able to participate. Keep him in a cage and feed him worms. Eventually, you may decide to hit him with a dispel. But until then, he is a little pet. Be sure to give him a horribly denegrating pet name, like "Hopsalong" or something equally lame.
Sunic_Flames 08-31-07, 05:10 PM	While I don't agree with the course of action you are taking, and your smug invincibility compared to his described weak build points to a frustrating party imbalance, I thought I'd chime in with a revenge. Simple. Use the Dominate Scroll. Order him to fail his saving throw when you hit him with Baleful Polymorph, into a toad. It's permanent (until dispelled) and he keeps his mental stats (make sure you buff him with Will bonuses to ensure he keeps his mental stats). He can understand everything and everyone around him, without being able to participate. Keep him in a cage and feed him worms. Eventually, you may decide to hit him with a dispel. But until then, he is a little pet. Be sure to give him a horribly denegrating pet name, like "Hopsalong" or something equally lame. His weakness stems from the fact he's spreading himself too thin and going about it all wrong. Ordinarily, I'd offer to help bring such a character up to par so it actually does what he wants it to do. Ordinarily, PCs don't attack each other. Long story short, he did just about everything a grappler shouldn't (reaping mauler = bad bad bad) but is meant to be a grappler. Or maybe a charger, he has pounce but nothing to expand on it. He wouldn't be too bad against NPCs and monsters. NPCs and monsters don't have ACs in the 40s. His AC is 41, I checked. Thing is, no ability to enchant natural weapons puts him several points lower on the to hit curve. My character is meant to be very strong defensively all around. This is supposed to be a high powered game. He just hasn't quite mastered the concept of making effective characters, and in hindsight really shouldn't be invited to a level 13 game, one shot or no one shot. :P Did I mention he got the feral template for free and still screwed up?
Shuuya 08-31-07, 06:09 PM	Helm of Alignment Switching (or whatever the real name is) Wouldn't that change him to True Lawful? Use lullaby and sleep or dominate or suggestion or hypnosis over and over till he fails make him tired and sleepy, put the helm on him and refuse to get it removed. It should prevent him and his Chaotic Idiot actions in game. But maybe you should talk to him OOG? It'd probably be a better solution.
Fiery_Overlord 09-01-07, 04:52 PM	Sense Motive (Wis) Check A successful check lets you avoid being bluffed. You can also use this skill to determine when “something is up” (that is, something odd is going on) or to assess someone’s trustworthiness. Sense Motive DCs Task Sense Motive DC Hunch 20 Sense enchantment 25 or 15 Discern secret message Varies Hunch This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another’s behavior that something is wrong, such as when you’re talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy. Sense Enchantment You can tell that someone’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (by definition, a mind-affecting effect), even if that person isn’t aware of it. The usual DC is 25, but if the target is dominated (see dominate person), the DC is only 15 because of the limited range of the target’s activities. Discern Secret Message You may use Sense Motive to detect that a hidden message is being transmitted via the Bluff skill. In this case, your Sense Motive check is opposed by the Bluff check of the character transmitting the message. For each piece of information relating to the message that you are missing, you take a -2 penalty on your Sense Motive check. If you succeed by 4 or less, you know that something hidden is being communicated, but you can’t learn anything specific about its content. If you beat the DC by 5 or more, you intercept and understand the message. If you fail by 4 or less, you don’t detect any hidden communication. If you fail by 5 or more, you infer some false information. See also: epic usages of Sense Motive. Action Trying to gain information with Sense Motive generally takes at least 1 minute, and you could spend a whole evening trying to get a sense of the people around you. Try Again No, though you may make a Sense Motive check for each Bluff check made against you. Special A ranger gains a bonus on Sense Motive checks when using this skill against a favored enemy. If you have the Negotiator feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks. Synergy If you have 5 or more ranks in Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks. So, if use this skill to find out if this is In-character feelings being expressed out of character. With a low DC of 20 (Low for PCs who have skill ranks and a high score) You can then know these feeling IC and then act on that knowledge. Seriously if his character hates someone that is a hard thing to constant 24/7 hide from his fellow adventurers. Now if it is completely OCC then tell the PLAYER to shut his pie hole because his OOC hostility isn't tolerable. This isn't some immature petty contest and is about creating a good story together through teamwork. If it IS IC then I do suggest you preemptively Dominate him, and make him listen to his "we can't trust you speech" that he has earned. Then keep him from following you or send him back to where he is from for the long duration of the spell. Retire the character to NPC status and tell the player to make a new character that is not hostile or disruptive to the party.