Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edward 06-10-04, 09:53 PM	I am playing 2 characters and they art both illegal in 3.5. Somebody just posted that persistent spell was +6 in 3.5. I play 2 witch have persistent spell and don’t have 7th level spell slots. I only have 3 cor books for 3.5 and another player has complete warrior. I created the characters under 3.5 rules including the statement that all the old books had not been rendered useless. Apparently this is not only untru but a lethal trap so we will have to be rewriting ower characters with every new resorce that comes out. Where is persistent spell outlined and how do I avoid making errors like this again. Not to mention what should I do with these characters one of which is so dependant on his persistent spells for survival and role playing he has 2 rings of counter spells, dispel magic and greater dispelling. I wouldn’t mind re writing him but it comes withe a complete change of visible tactics. Why would you need to pay 6 levels to make a spell last all day when it already lasted hours anyway. Edward
Kalrin 06-10-04, 09:59 PM	If you are using Tome and Blood (3e) Persistant Spell is +4 I believe that it got rewritten in Magic of Faerun. I could be very wrong though, so you'll need to ask someone else. My recommendation: Check with your DM, but one solution is to continue to use said feat as you've been doing until you can cast 7th level spells, at which point you switch versions
Edward 06-11-04, 12:53 AM	I considered that but when i first get 7the level spells I would be unwilling to use them like that. on getting 8th level spells I might be wiling to give up one 7th level spell. u currently have 2 1st and 1 cantrip running persistent (cant remember what). I wouldn’t be willing to do that again until at least 16th level (it isn’t just spells from class my spells from int and pearl of power level 5 need to be considered. Even then it will heart a lot more costly. It might be worth it for shield (a bit steep but worth it) but for prestigitation. I may go back to a tacky looking 1000gp item. Not as good flavour but a 6th level spell is just too much to pay for something with no tactical use. Maby a mutlti level sytem where the level boost is proportional to the duration would be balanced 1 round/lvl +6 1 min/lvl +5 10 min/lvl +4 1 houre/lvl +2 (remember 2 applications of persistent will get this for you at level 8) Edward
Pathanus 06-11-04, 10:00 AM	In the Players Guide to Faerun it is now a +6 for all duration spells. Path
BlackFiend 06-11-04, 10:20 AM	Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Seems nerfed to me. Oh well.
Revelation 06-11-04, 11:21 AM	No the new version is fine, the old version was overpowered, I used to have a Cleric14 and the number of persistent spells I had was ridiculous, I happily changed to +6, and still use it, but for far fewer spells
Edward 06-11-04, 01:20 PM	At +6 it is only worth it for low duration spells. Those that where going to last 2 hours anyway (10 min per level) can be extended and cast 4 times a day and this is a far lower cost (pearl of power 2 is 4000gp) you don’t have it while you sleep but it is better than burning a 7th level spell slot. Even making a lage number of extended scrolls would be better value. It is certainly to expensive for prestigitation. Remember 7th level spells at lvl 13 are more valuable than 5th level spells at lvl 9. Also I am faced withe the problem that what I got in a non-campaign world specific book I payed for and when they changed to 3.5 they said that the old books would remain useful has been over written by a campaign world specific book wich I will never by because I don’t collect Faerun books. How am I supposed to be able to keep up. Not only do I need to replace all my splat books but now I need to by all the world books as well just to have access to all the information to keep access to all the information I already had. Not to mention that when I created thes characters Players Guide to Faerun had not yet been published. I am beginning to thing that wizards of the cost is out to get me. 1 by one they are eliminating my access to all my old tricks both mechanical and role playing. It I as if they are duming down DND to the lowest common denominator non of the stupid people I played withe ever used any of the tricks the new system denies me. Soon everybody will be reduced to a blast and smash strategy. No spells withe a strategic duration no retreat no surrender no mercy. Edward
BlackFiend 06-11-04, 02:14 PM	Hmmm...I thought Peristant spell was only published in Faerun texts. Is Persistant spell considered core, now? I really don't think so. You yourself don't need to maintain all the texts...between your normal adventuring group, you can strive to maintain such a library. In my campaigns we keep a single rule however. You can't play something unless you have the book for it and the DM has the book for access as well.
Scion of Coldshard 06-11-04, 02:17 PM	I would suggest talking with the dm, come up with a workable solution that you can both live with. The persistant feat has always had problems, either it was so weak it was worthles, or it was bordering on so overpowered as to make it ludicrus. Personally, I would suggest making a chart of spells and level adjustments each would need. This would allow a lot more use, and make everyone happy at once, but it will take some work ;)
MrkGrismer 06-11-04, 02:52 PM	Originally posted by Edward Also I am faced withe the problem that what I got in a non-campaign world specific book I payed for and when they changed to 3.5 they said that the old books would remain useful has been over written by a campaign world specific book wich I will never by because I don’t collect Faerun books. How am I supposed to be able to keep up. Not only do I need to replace all my splat books but now I need to by all the world books as well just to have access to all the information to keep access to all the information I already had. Not to mention that when I created thes characters Players Guide to Faerun had not yet been published. Persistent spell only exists in Faerun (FRCS, I believe). As do many a questionable thing... When my players asked me to run a third edition game and I went to buy the books I told them I was doing 3.5 and if they got any book or used anything that was not 3.5 they should be prepared for it to not be allowed or to change if it was updated in a 3.5 source. Anyone not prepared to do that might as well stick with 3.0.
Edward 06-11-04, 05:07 PM	Persistent spell was printed (first I think) in tomb and blood. I wouldn’t mind so much if it were disallowed. It is more annoying that the rules for it have been changed. There are only a small number of people in my club that would by Faerun products. I believe I will be able to look up the feet next time I am at the club but I won’t have time to read threw to see if anything else from 3.0 products I have was changed. Edward
Eldren 06-11-04, 05:31 PM	There are two important things to realize here: A) All non-campaign-setting-specific rules (i.e., those rules not officially attached to Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, the only two campaign settings currently published by WotC; soon Eberron will be added to this list) from 3.0 that have not been directly superceded by a 3.5 publication are still official. B) When a supercession of a rule occurs that is campaign setting-specific, such as the noted change to "Persistent Spell" from the Forgotten Realms material, that supercession is only valid in that particular campaign setting. Individual Dungeon Masters may decide to make it the official ruling across all their campaigns, but that's what is technically called a "house rule", and rules lawyers, if they're feeling froggy enough to jump, have some ground to stand on in contending such a ruling. In this case, "Persistent Spell" hasn't been officially altered in a non-campaign-setting-specific publication (i.e., nothing that doesn't have "Forgotten Realms" or "Dragonlance" on its cover). Chances are a 3.5 version will show up in "The Complete Arcane", whenever it's published, but as that hasn't hit the shelves yet, the version originally published in Tome & Blood, on page 41 of that work, is still the official version for all campaigns not set in the Forgotten Realms. As far as the Forgotten Realms are concerned, "Persistent Spell" has been republished in Player's Guide to Faerun as having a +6 level adjustment for spells prepared or cast with this feat applied. This means that only in the Forgotten Realms is this adjustment valid. The likelihood is that whatever version of the feat is published in "The Complete Arcane" is going to have this same +6 level adjustment, but for right now, the official non-Forgotten Realms version of the "Persistent Spell" feat comes from Tome & Blood, with its +4 level adjustment.
olshanski_home 06-11-04, 05:58 PM	Here's what we do: Core rules only. No splatbooks. No extra purchases. No loss of big $$ cash. No risk of abusive splatbook stuff.
Eldren 06-11-04, 09:17 PM	Olshanski: You're one of the rare ones. :) This being said, if you're ever in the Seattle area, look me up; I think it'd be cool to play in one of your games. :D The thing to realize about the material from the so-called splatbooks is that it's fine if the Dungeon Master uses some forethought, and doesn't just give open carte blanche to the players to pull any and all material from it that they want. The DM needs to have thought about the book's impact while designing the campaign, and needs to have integrated those new rules fully into the campaign during creation, so that the inclusion of those rules is a natural part of the game world, and doesn't overbalance things by being included when the original campaign design didn't take it into account. Barring this, the DM might only see a few things they like, and several others they don't. In this case, the Dungeon Master needs to exercise their authority and not be afraid to tell the players, "This is available, but this is not." If the players are really that unhappy about such a ruling, chances are they're going to seek out another campaign anyway, and everyone is spared hours of headaches from playing in a game they aren't having fun in. :)
Christian Landry 06-11-04, 09:53 PM	Re: Persistent Spell being a core feat. It is in the SRD now, and is the Player's Guide to Faerun version, i.e. it adjusts the spell slot by 6 levels. It is in DivineAbilitiesandFeats.rtf. For some reason, a number of other feats from that section are still 3.0 rather than 3.5.
Eldren 06-11-04, 10:24 PM	That has to be either an error or an oversight. As far as I'm aware, the only 3.5 material which is currently OGL is the Core Rulebooks. Plans are apparently in place to add the Expanded Psionics Handbook to that list, but according to both Complete Warrior and Complete Divine, no parts of those books are Open Gaming Content, and it doesn't seem likely that Complete Arcane will be either. As far as I'm aware, no portion of any Forgotten Realms material is Open Gaming Content either. That is really unusual that this particular feat has shown up, and as the version from Player's Guide to Faerun to boot.
DragonWorldOrder 06-30-04, 05:38 AM	Consider this instead about the persistent +4 vs. the +6, Faerun is a strange land with a strange way about magic. Remember magic works differntly in some places, and in Faerun magic that lasts a while might be harder to cast then magic thats just one round. All in all like whats been said above, ask and talk to your GM, maybe with a good story line and or reason he'll let you keep the +4 untile you acculy go to Faerun land. Which will hopefully only be when your character is high enogh level to with-stand the +6 that you'd have to deal with.
roguebfl 06-30-04, 06:06 AM	Originally posted by Eldren That has to be either an error or an oversight. Consider This. it orgianal appared in a non Faerun book. Player guid to Faerun came out before Complete Aracae to it appref there first in it updated for. it if the SRD has it at +6 as well ther a good chance to forceee that 3.% is going to update it to +6 as well. but to reitter what other have said 3.0 Stuff is still offical Untill or unless a 3.5 book updates it or says it no longer exists. (it ever say so in the player guid to faerun )
nick012000 06-30-04, 07:25 AM	Originally posted by Eldren That has to be either an error or an oversight. As far as I'm aware, the only 3.5 material which is currently OGL is the Core Rulebooks. SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) d20 Modern SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd) Current books contained within the SRDs: [list=1] DnD Core Rule Books Expanded Psionics Handbook Deities and Demigods Epic Level Handbook d20 Modern Rulebook Urban Arcana d20 Menace Manual [/list=1] Current Books designated OGC: [list=1] Unearthed Arcana d20 Weapons Locker [/list=1]
Nick Soapdish 06-30-04, 12:19 PM	Persistent Spell was totally broken in 3.0 thanks to 2 cleric spells and (maybe) 3.0 Shield. The updated version was rumored to be about like what you had suggested. (I think that a Wizards' employee had even suggested that breakdown, but adding 1 round/ +8 levels.) Supposedly, they decided against it because it was a bit complicated. I'd recommend talking to your DM. Like you said, using it for Prestidigitation isn't what's breaking it and I'd guess that your other two spells aren't either (although your assertation that your character is completely based around those two spells, including the investment of two rings, makes me wonder).
Stuntman 06-30-04, 01:18 PM	Originally posted by Christian Landry Re: Persistent Spell being a core feat. It is in the SRD now, and is the Player's Guide to Faerun version, i.e. it adjusts the spell slot by 6 levels. It is in DivineAbilitiesandFeats.rtf. For some reason, a number of other feats from that section are still 3.0 rather than 3.5. I just checked the SRD and I cannot find persistent spell. I was looking at the feats and epic feats. If it is in the SRD, where is it?
satyrgrrrrl 06-30-04, 02:24 PM	Originally posted by Stuntman I just checked the SRD and I cannot find persistent spell. I was looking at the feats and epic feats. If it is in the SRD, where is it? It's under the Divine Abilities and Feats section, like the original poster said. And it does say "A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell’s actual level." Praytell, what spells are *so* important to your character that he *must* have them cast on him 24 hours a day? Also, no feat should determine how you role play a character. Sure, using feats to add some flavor, or adding some roleplaying to represent a feat is fun, but take away the feat and your character would still be playable (both in the mechanical and role-playing aspects). Dude, if I were your GM, I'd make you change it. I'd give you the option to switch out the feat (and subsequent ones, if they had it as a prerequisite) for something else if you weren't happy with the way it worked now. No character should be so dependent on a feat that his character is null and void if the feat changes... especially since it's only +2 more spell levels.
DragonWorldOrder 06-30-04, 03:19 PM	Well, actually satyrgrrrrl, in one of the past Dragon Mag's there was an article that talked about how your feats make the character. And I'm assuming that applies to Metamagic feats as well, feat like spring attack means your character is a get in get out doing as much damage as you can before you get hit kind of parson. I'm afraid I don't recall the # of the Dragon, but its out there and for good character development it would be a useful tool if you don't have a clue how your going to roll play your character.
Edward 06-30-04, 08:17 PM	The character was not completely based around those spells. And the rings where more to protect the permanent spells than the persistent ones but I wouldn’t have had the persistent ones up without them. One of the spells was shield. Another was non combative (I forget now as since starting this thread I had to quit that hame because of work). I don’t think +4 for a day is unbalanced at level 5. you get the same from extended mage armour for a level 2 slot by that caster level. It is hire level because it stacks but 5 levels hire. (When it was +7 Ac, evasion and a bonus to ref it was to good) The character was heavily based around permanent and long duration spells as n alternative to magic items. The feet description in the SRD also implies that only a deity can get it. Without the feat the character still would be playable but would be significantly altered (mostly less able to perform tricks. The AC loss would not be a major issue) Edward
satyrgrrrrl 07-01-04, 01:46 AM	Originally posted by DragonWorldOrder Well, actually satyrgrrrrl, in one of the past Dragon Mag's there was an article that talked about how your feats make the character. And I'm assuming that applies to Metamagic feats as well, feat like spring attack means your character is a get in get out doing as much damage as you can before you get hit kind of parson. I'm afraid I don't recall the # of the Dragon, but its out there and for good character development it would be a useful tool if you don't have a clue how your going to roll play your character. Like I said, feats can give an idea on how to play the character (which is what they're talking about in the magazine), but they shouldn't make up the entire concept... A character can still be of the hit-and-run mentality without actually having Spring Attack, and a character can be a person all about being prepared and/or protected without actually using Persistent Spell (the PC given in the example). If you only have one or two spells that you used for Persistent Spell, Edward, then your character shouldn't be reduced to "tricks", because the loss of one or two spells should never kill a PC design. If, however, changing the way the feat works significantly "nerfs" your character build, then I would simply suggest changing tactics and being less of a one-trick pony. (Note: This is to expand your playing experience, not to pick on how you play.) EDIT: I just re-read your last post, Edward, and realized I read it wrong. Tricks are well and good, but I agree with the change of rules. If they're just tricks, I'm sure you'll find another way to imitate them. I believe spells have 1 round/level durations for a reason. And your character may be using it for semi-harmless "tricks", but wait until the next character (or even yours) abuses it. :angel:
wdarkk 07-01-04, 02:50 AM	Also, the feats can be taken by anyone. It just says that they're additional options for what it's on the topic of at the time (Deities). None of those feats require you to be a god.
Edward 07-01-04, 04:43 AM	Actually most of my spell casters by this level are unflappable. They have a range of spells and abilities that mean they always have something to contribute. I was going for a different style of play to expand my playing experience. The character was by no means a one trick pony but he was set up in a very different way specifically because it was different to my norm Edward edit to put corect post here