Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HermitIX 04-09-07, 03:12 PM	So I’m playing a Tibbit in my game. (Dragon Compendium) and the DM loves to harass me. Last game I was walking up to a castle, in house cat form when a hawk swoops down out of no where to attack me. It got an attack against my Flat footed AC. Now I felt that I should have at least had a chance to spot the bird before it attacked me. Are there rules for this? Well not exactly this, but stealthy bad guys attacking unwary PCs have a chance to be spotted before they land a blow, right?
jadehawk 04-09-07, 03:23 PM	you should've received a spot check either against its hide check (if it were hiding) or you should have received a spot check to start the encounter (if it were not hiding). If the owl were not hiding, you would automatically see the owl after you and it covered half the distance of the original encounter. Either way, yes, you should've had the opportunity to avoid a surprise round and your DM is being a jerk... That is unless there is something I don't know like your character is blind and the owl had silence cast on it...
Tyraxus 04-09-07, 03:33 PM	Depends. Some DMs will roll the spot checks in secret to see if you notice an enemy or not (spot v. hide would be the standard "you notice him, roll initiative" procedure). In this specific case, maybe it was DM fiat that, no matter how good your eyesight, you could never have spotted the hawk swooping down out of the sun at 150+mph (220 ft/sec, or a quarter mile in one six-second round) in enough time to do anything about it. A reasonable call, in my opinion. Using game rules, a hawk can dive at 120 ft per round (rediculous, but nobody ever said D&D was realistic), which might be outside your spot-radius, especially considering the sizes involved, and depending on whether or not he's coming out of the sun (most if not all raptors do this on instinct). If you think you're being picked on, then have a chat with your DM about it. But saying you're flat-footed in that situation isn't that hard to believe.
Droma 04-09-07, 03:42 PM	Since we dont have the DM's perspective im wondering if he was just trying to be funny by having a housecat get attacked by a hawk. Either way the hawk is a total non danger to a pc and more just an annoyance. If he does this kind of stuff constantly talk to him. If its just once or twice then maybe your over reacting. As far as the spot check that really is a total judgement call by the DM. We normally house rule it that if they arent trying to hide you auto see it coming at you to attack and just roll init.
jadehawk 04-09-07, 05:50 PM	Unless it is literally impossible for a character to react to a surprise, they should get a chance. Unless the owl is under complete silence and invisibility (which would require more than just invisibility as invisibility allows a spot check to notice such targets) or you are blind and deaf or considered helpless, you get your spot/listen checks. Robbing a character of the opportunity to act no matter how unlikely the results is cruel, limiting, and against the concept of role playing in general. But even if you did notice the owl, you would have to beat it on initiative just to avoid being caught flatfooted anyways, so the inherent dive speed of the bird should be indicative of its initiative bonus and the fact that you notice his attack may not help in the end. That being said, the following could have happened: *The owl's hide check modifier may have been 20 points greater than your spot check making your spot check impossible to notice it (as skill checks do not have auto success) *The DM could have rolled the check for you, but out of game if you brought up that you didn't get a shot, the DM should have told you he rolled it for you as it was a "surprise" *The owl was silenced and ethereal before attacking you or something similar to this, resulting in the owl being completely undetectable by you. In which case, you were walking down the wrong owl's hunting ground
Cartigan 04-09-07, 06:05 PM	The PHB describes surprise rounds far more unlikely than a hawk swooping out of the middle of nowhere to attack you. Even if you had spotted it, it would have been too late to do anything. Perfectly reasonable use of surprise round. What you should be asking is why a hawk as swooping from somewhere on the other side of the board to attack you.
jadehawk 04-10-07, 12:27 PM	What do you mean too late? If you succeed in spotting the target as it swoops, then you roll initiative and there is no surprise round. But if it beats you in initiative it goes first anyways, which catches you flatfooted. If it has fly-by attack it can hit you and keep moving well out of distance. And what are you describing as a PHB example of a surprise round that the PCs are not given an opportunity to detect? Perhaps it is describing some creatures readying actions when the party opens a door? That would be an effective use of a readied action to create a surprise round, but in that case the opponents would have to A) know that you are on the other side of the door (likely because you are making noise), B) be quiet enough so the wall acts as a good enough barrier so that your listen check could not hear them, and C) ready their action to strike you immediately after you open the door.
Cartigan 04-10-07, 01:16 PM	What do you mean too late? If you succeed in spotting the target as it swoops, then you roll initiative and there is no surprise round. Why would you spot it? Is it flying straight at you? Perhaps it is describing some creatures readying actions when the party opens a door? The most apt example would be the Kobold Wizard firing a lightning bolt example.
Dragonteuthis 04-10-07, 01:31 PM	Why would you spot it? Is it flying straight at you? You don't have to be looking directly at something in order to get a Spot check.
jadehawk 04-10-07, 01:52 PM	Yes, give the hide check in the PHB and encounter rules in the DMG a good look over. If something is just sitting plainly in the air you don't need to roll a spot check. An encounter begins at some rolled distance, usually between around 50 and 300 feet. You get a pretty decent spot check to notice regular things, but if you fail, when the encounter distance cuts in half you automatically notice each other and there is no surprise round. If the creature is already aware of you and is hiding then you get a spot check to notice it hiding unless it is completely hidden (like in complete darkness or behind total cover). Otherwise you would get a spot check there as well. That being said even if you successfully spot the threat, if it beats you on initiative it may still get a surprise attack on you...just not a surprise round
jadehawk 04-10-07, 01:56 PM	Why would you spot it? Is it flying straight at you? The most apt example would be the Kobold Wizard firing a lightning bolt example. Please cite the example or if you are concerned about copyright give another similar example. I would like to understand what you are trying to get at.
baltasar_basilius 04-10-07, 02:04 PM	What you should be asking is why a hawk as swooping from somewhere on the other side of the board to attack you. He already told us. He was in cat form! At least the DM was being clever while being a jerk to the guy. What would have been much more funny is have a level 1 commoner named Steve suddenly attack him. But we all know that a house cat would win that battle. :P
Cartigan 04-10-07, 03:59 PM	You don't have to be looking directly at something in order to get a Spot check. But you would have to have a modicum of reason to have a spot check on something swooping in from across the map. A cat is doubtably even a foot off the ground and a Hawk comes swooping in with a move of 120ft? You might hear it too late, but you wouldn't spot it until it was way too late. Please cite the example or if you are concerned about copyright give another similar example. I would like to understand what you are trying to get at. Page 137. I would recommend reading the Determining Awareness section. Yes, give the hide check in the PHB and encounter rules in the DMG a good look over. I think you should read Starting an Encounter in the DMG and Determining Awareness in the PHB instead.
trapspringer 04-10-07, 04:20 PM	That's a pretty solid argument. You've got a tiny bird (that's, what? +8 to hide?) with a decent dex of, let's just say 14 (bringin' that mod to +10) starting the encounter 300ft away (that's a -30 penalty), and just to add a little salt to the wound let's say the DM thought it reasonable to say the cat was distracted for an additional -4. For the sake of getting a single really big number, let's make those penalties into bonuses and figure the DC out. 8+2+30+4 = 44. An invisible creature only has a spot DC of 40. So if the encounter started at 300 feet, the player wouldn't really need to roll a spot check.
jadehawk 04-10-07, 04:30 PM	you don't apply distance penalties to spot checks for encounters...you apply that to spot checks to oppose hide checks Think about it, a man standing in a field 300 feet a way from you (about 1 football field away) would not have a spot DC of 40.
jadehawk 04-10-07, 04:32 PM	But you would have to have a modicum of reason to have a spot check on something swooping in from across the map. A cat is doubtably even a foot off the ground and a Hawk comes swooping in with a move of 120ft? You might hear it too late, but you wouldn't spot it until it was way too late. Page 137. I would recommend reading the Determining Awareness section. I think you should read Starting an Encounter in the DMG and Determining Awareness in the PHB instead. When someone is trying to hide from you, you automatically get 1 free spot check. When an encounter begins you get a free spot check. If you don't get a spot check to notice the bird in the sky, why does the bird get a spot check to notice you? And say a hawk is moving at a speed of 120 feet, taking a single or double move. In a normal encounter that would mean the bird should be within encounter distance (free spot check) before it was within diving distance.
bobothechimp 04-10-07, 04:56 PM	Of course, the hawk could easily have attacked from behind.
allenchan 04-10-07, 05:08 PM	That's a pretty solid argument. You've got a tiny bird (that's, what? +8 to hide?) with a decent dex of, let's just say 14 (bringin' that mod to +10) starting the encounter 300ft away (that's a -30 penalty), and just to add a little salt to the wound let's say the DM thought it reasonable to say the cat was distracted for an additional -4. For the sake of getting a single really big number, let's make those penalties into bonuses and figure the DC out. 8+2+30+4 = 44. An invisible creature only has a spot DC of 40. So if the encounter started at 300 feet, the player wouldn't really need to roll a spot check. All true. And finally, it needs to be said: Its just a hawk. Maybe if it were a wyvern or a dragon or something else, but to me this seems like a fairly amusing and logical result, without major consequences. Or maybe your DM just saw that commercial where the guy gets shrunk and an owl eats him. I fail to see the big deal.
Cartigan 04-10-07, 05:18 PM	you don't apply distance penalties to spot checks for encounters...you apply that to spot checks to oppose hide checks Think about it, a man standing in a field 300 feet a way from you (about 1 football field away) would not have a spot DC of 40. Unless he was 16 inches tall and the grass was a foot high and you didn't know where he was, When someone is trying to hide from you, you automatically get 1 free spot check. "Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway." Plus, it isn't so much hiding as it is not there. And I see nothing about a free spot check, much less one for the sake of having one.
Kursk 04-10-07, 06:13 PM	Of course, the hawk could easily have attacked from behind. Or, above. Which would probably negate a spot check and allow for surprise.
Dragonteuthis 04-11-07, 12:04 AM	But you would have to have a modicum of reason to have a spot check on something swooping in from across the map. Nope. "Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner (for example, when someone tries to sneak past you while hidden, or you move into a new area), you can make a Spot check without using an action." - PHB pg. 83 Ignoring the fact that I have trouble seeing a MM Hawk carry off a housecat (they are the same size), the "cat" would get a -12 penalty to spot the hawk before it swooped in (assuming the hawk spotted the cat first and moved in quickly, which is likely, given it's Spot modifier). Most likely the "cat" would have failed, but there's no reason he should have been denied his Spot check entirely. Of course, the hawk could easily have attacked from behind. There are no facing rules in 3.5 D&D. If the DM instituted them, he really should have informed the players.
Dragonteuthis 04-11-07, 12:07 AM	So if the encounter started at 300 feet, the player wouldn't really need to roll a spot check. Though, with those same assumptions, it's unlikely the Hawk would have spotted the cat in the first place(even if the hawk isn't distracted and taking into account it's +8 racial bonus to Spot checks), thus negating the entire encounter. Spot penalties for distance applie in both directions, remember.
Magnus_the_Mad 04-11-07, 01:05 AM	Ignoring the fact that I have trouble seeing a MM Hawk carry off a housecat (they are the same size), the "cat" would get a -12 penalty to spot the hawk before it swooped in (assuming the hawk spotted the cat first and moved in quickly, which is likely, given it's Spot modifier). Most likely the "cat" would have failed, but there's no reason he should have been denied his Spot check entirely. Hehe, I can assure you that a hawk carrying a cat away is very possible. Not sure about what the rest of you guys have experienced, but here in Alaska the eagles take off with the tourists dogs every summer! No kidding. Better keep sparky on a leash and really close or Sam the eagle is gonna have a snack. I agree with your posts btw. A spot check should have been granted.
wizarddog 04-11-07, 02:31 AM	Interesting.... 1. Okay he might not be able to spot the hawk but should he had a Listen check? Flying is not completely silent. 2. While an eagle may carry off a small dog, hawks are smaller and not likely attack a cat even for food. 3. It was just a DM in-game joke and not very good one. :)
northern_bear 04-11-07, 09:28 AM	Apprently, some posters seem to feel that having a bunch of ranks in spot somehow provides characters with eyese in the back of their heads, or some sort of mystical awareness of everything that exists within a 10 mile radius. Spot allows you to notice something WHEN YOU LOOK IN ITS DIRECTION. If something comes at a character from behind/above then they aren't entitled to a spot check. I don't care if his spot check is +5000. Unless the character tells me "I look up into the sky" then he doesn't notice something directly over his head. There are limits to peripheral vision, and most people don't spend a lot of time looking straight up, just in case something is there. Imagine this, as the PC is walking away from the town, one of the guards on top of the town wall fires his crossbow at the PC's back. Do you give the PC a spot check to notice that one of the guards behind him on top of the wall was loading a crossbow and pointing it at him? I wouldn't. P.S. How do you know you didn't get a spot check? When I DM, I always make spot checks for the PCs, and I don't tell them about it unless they actually suceed.
amethal 04-11-07, 05:42 PM	3. It was just a DM in-game joke and not very good one. :)I thought it was funny. I doubt the hawk did, once he figured out the "cat" had a ton of hit points. It was hardly a life threatening situation. Whats the fuss about?
Cartigan 04-11-07, 05:49 PM	Nope. "Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner (for example, when someone tries to sneak past you while hidden, or you move into a new area), you can make a Spot check without using an action." - PHB pg. 83 Emphasis mine. Read the quote about cover and concealment rules. Ignoring the fact that I have trouble seeing a MM Hawk carry off a housecat (they are the same size), Attacking and carrying off arn't the same. but there's no reason he should have been denied his Spot check entirely. Total concealment. No reason for a Spot check because it would have been impossible to make. Hehe, I can assure you that a hawk carrying a cat away is very possible. Not sure about what the rest of you guys have experienced, but here in Alaska the eagles take off with the tourists dogs every summer! No kidding. Better keep sparky on a leash and really close or Sam the eagle is gonna have a snack. I wonder if Australian tourists get Spot checks on dropbears.
Mystic Theurge 04-11-07, 07:15 PM	you don't apply distance penalties to spot checks for encounters...you apply that to spot checks to oppose hide checks Think about it, a man standing in a field 300 feet a way from you (about 1 football field away) would not have a spot DC of 40. This is incorrect. From the SRD: Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant). Condition Penalty Per 10 feet of distance –1 Spotter distracted –5
DoomDuck 04-11-07, 09:35 PM	How did the Hawk make the Spot check to start the encounter? ~DD
trapspringer 04-11-07, 10:26 PM	He was actively searching for a small vermin-esque animal, and the DM gave him a circumstance bonus because of it ;). This resulted in a total modifier of +22 (+12 nat, +10 circumstance) coupled with the +40 modifier of the-same-way-the-party-doesn't-get-killed-by-the-BBEG's-ninjas-every-night-while-the-sleep." I mean seriously, stuff happens. The DM doesn't have to justify everything through the rules. It isn't practicle. You could say the bird saw the cat earlier while pearched in a tree with near total concealment. He then went airborne and, armed with the location, description, and direction of the cat, used those modifiers along with his own substantial spot modifier to follow the cat from a distance which would negate spotting (as these jokers apparently do on instinct, I don't know, I'm not an ornothologist), and then attacked. Have none of you ever run a game before? You know that ogre standing there in a room with a treasure chest? Yea. Do you think the DM tracked his rations? His experience up to this point? The amount of sleep he got? No. It's bloody impracticle. The DM sets up fights for the player. They happen. Do you ask for justification for them? If there's no problem there then there is no problem here.
Cartigan 04-11-07, 10:45 PM	How did the Hawk make the Spot check to start the encounter? ~DD Wiki raptors?
trapspringer 04-11-07, 11:06 PM	Well, yea, IRL those jokers can spot a mouse a mile away. (figured I'd save ya' the time)
Shatteredtower 04-12-07, 04:02 AM	Imagine this, as the PC is walking away from the town, one of the guards on top of the town wall fires his crossbow at the PC's back. Do you give the PC a spot check to notice that one of the guards behind him on top of the wall was loading a crossbow and pointing it at him? I wouldn't.I would. The rules don't include facing and they don't include blind spots for a reason. Play the Spot checks by the book; ambushes still tend to favour the party in hiding because of distance modifiers. Besides, people whose livelihood depends on being aware of threats do tend to subconsciously take in nearly everything they can. Security guards in high risk areas are trained this way. Good driver is trained this way. Adventurers? But of course! You've never seen the Western in which the hero makes a note of the guy waiting on the roof or hiding next to the second story window? James Bond never looks up? Batman's awareness is limited to the horizon?
Leilond 04-12-07, 04:11 AM	Usually ambushes are made by brigants to "commoners". Commoners usually have no more than +4 to "spot cheks" (probably +1 or +2); on the other way the brigants are skilled on their job and can easly have +5 on hide; more of that the ambush usually start 30-40 feet from the target, that means -3 or -4 to spot cheks... the odds are for the brigants... expecially if the commoner is "distracted" (another -5) Adventurers are a different issue... they're skilled in being "attacked" and usually there's a rougue or ranger that is VERY skilled in "spot things". Ambush a party is REALLY difficult and require a very skilled group of "brigants". BUT No spot check let you see someone that have TOTAL COVER from you. That's the way you can ambush a party. Put the "ambushers" behind a TOTAL COVER (a big Rock, a very very heavy vegetation) so that the party cannot see ambushers but ambushers cannot see the party. They can ear eachother, but the ambusher will be probably "immobile" and cannot be eared... If the party make enought noise (a paladin or a cleric with full plate usually is enought) the ambushers can try to find the right moment to "attack"... it depends on the "boss" listen chek For this reason my party usually have the rougue and the ranger (yes they have both) about 30-40 feet in front of the party, spotting and listening for possible... and more of that the "ranger's hawk" recive all the morning the istruction (speak with animals) to fly hight and "cry" every time he see some living creatures about 50-100 feet from the party... I really have hard time if I want to ambush them
Ack 04-12-07, 04:46 AM	Maybe the irritating thing to the player was having his shapechanging character outted in view of the manor house, which he was perhaps intending to infiltrate for whatever reason. The GM deciding that a hawk attacked his character wouldn't do any real damage to him, but it would screw that plan (and make them wary of any other animal approaching the house). And really, hawks tend not to attack predators of their own size. Unless they are really really hungry. So I'd say the GM was just being a dick. :D
northern_bear 04-12-07, 08:04 AM	You've never seen the Western in which the hero makes a note of the guy waiting on the roof or hiding next to the second story window? James Bond never looks up? Batman's awareness is limited to the horizon? If the character walks down the street, I would give him a spot check to notice something off to the side of the street. So ya, the cowboy would remember that there is a dude hiding behind that window. But I wouldn't give him a spot check if the guy wasn't there when he walked by, and only became visible once the hero had his back turned. James bond & batman get attacked (& surprised) from behind all the time. And on those occasions where they aren't surprised by an attacker from behind, I would say it is probably because they made a listen check, not a spot check. The rules don't include facing and they don't include blind spots for a reason. Play the Spot checks by the book. Ok, I'll agree that the rules don't say you can't spot things behind you. But they also don't say you can spot things behind you. And even if it explicitly stated in the rules that all characters have 360 degree vision, at all times I would simply house rule against characters noticing things that are entirely behind their backs. It would be just one more of those things, like a character falling from 20 miles up onto a pile of jagged rocks and then walking away after losing only a third of his hit points.
jadehawk 04-12-07, 03:21 PM	Unless he was 16 inches tall and the grass was a foot high and you didn't know where he was, "Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway." Plus, it isn't so much hiding as it is not there. And I see nothing about a free spot check, much less one for the sake of having one. What grass are you thinking of that floats in the sky? And yes, you are right that there are circumstances where you don't get a spot check. I already covered that, and other cases (like when the target's hide check modifer counting circumstance modifiers is more than 20 higher than yours making it impossible for you to spot). That aside, when you have a chance of seeing something, you get a spot check.
trapspringer 04-12-07, 04:18 PM	The point is there are circumstances under which he would not recieve a spot check, and that further it is possible those were the circumstances under which the hawk attack occured. It is possible for everything that happened to have happened and for everything to still be totally legit.
olshanski_home 04-12-07, 04:43 PM	Perhaps a hawk is not normally considered something that people are "on their guard" about. I do not roll spot checks every time the pcs walk past a toad or a crow or a lizard. I just assume people are walking past animals and insects all of the time. If the animal was of particular importance, or acting strangely, then I'd offer a spot chance to figure out something is up. Of course I don't bother with having natural hawks attack PCs... just like I don't have encounters with bedbugs, mosquitos, gnats, wasps, or angy squirrels.
KurenaiYami 04-12-07, 05:05 PM	Ok, I'll agree that the rules don't say you can't spot things behind you. But they also don't say you can spot things behind you. It also doesn't say you can spot thins in front of you. By you're logic, you are blind.
jadehawk 04-12-07, 05:56 PM	Perhaps a hawk is not normally considered something that people are "on their guard" about. I do not roll spot checks every time the pcs walk past a toad or a crow or a lizard. I just assume people are walking past animals and insects all of the time. If the animal was of particular importance, or acting strangely, then I'd offer a spot chance to figure out something is up. Of course I don't bother with having natural hawks attack PCs... just like I don't have encounters with bedbugs, mosquitos, gnats, wasps, or angy squirrels. True, normally you would not indicate that a hawk was flying around ready to attack you, but that is because normally they aren't flying around ready to attack you, which is because normally you aren't wildshaped (or whatever) into a cat. It is reasonable to assume that a character with any sort of wisdom or that has wild shaped before would notice the intricacies of being in that shape such as natural predators and prey. And to respond to the earlier post about certain circumstances negating a hide check, that is true. I don't know if you were contending my point or Cartigans but I posted something earlier on that indicated some of the few circumstances where you would not receive a hide check (+20 difference between hide and spot, ethereal "concealment", etc. Cartigan introduced another (behind total cover) as well as reiterated mine about concealment. However, as far as the original poster has indicated, this was not the case. He was a cat walking along when a hawk swooped out of the sky and caught him without any notice. I see that as an abusive DM trying to get a laugh out of a character, and though it may have been for fun it certainly wasn't for the PC, who has indicated this is not the first irritating abuse upon his character. If the DM used an ethereal hawk, or had a hawk hiding atop a cliff edge behind full cover then it would be acceptable. It would also be a little less embarrassing for the PC who was caught off guard. Consider yourself playing a game where the DM can out of nowhere just throw something out at you with no regard for your skills, feats, or special abilities. You may as well just hand him your character and walk out, which is what I might do if I had a DM doing this to me consistently.
Shatteredtower 04-12-07, 10:36 PM	James bond & batman get attacked (& surprised) from behind all the time.And in D&D, it would be because they failed their Spot checks. And on those occasions where they aren't surprised by an attacker from behind, I would say it is probably because they made a listen check, not a spot check.Doesn't quite work. If you don't see it, you're flat-footed against it. Are you saying that somone I hear coming at me from 15 feet away treated me as flat-footed because I heard it when my back was turned? The rogue heard by my 1st halfling bard (with +6 on Listen checks) but not seen (because my +2 on Spot checks wasn't good enough) gets to add sneak attack to any damage done. It doesn't matter than said character broke cover in front of me or behind me to make that attack either. Ok, I'll agree that the rules don't say you can't spot things behind you. But they also don't say you can spot things behind you.It is, however, consistent with the rules on facing. There are no rules on facing. No matter how much you circle an opponent, you never gain an advantage for attacking it from behind, even if it's a horse you've caught in a five foot wide corridor. Attacking two enemies that flank you does not leave you with an attack penalty against either of them. Likewise, a bard's ability to fascinate listeners does not cause said listeners to automatically fail Spot checks against allies on the other side of the listener from the bard, even though the listener is focused almost entirely on the bard. And even if it explicitly stated in the rules that all characters have 360 degree vision, at all times I would simply house rule against characters noticing things that are entirely behind their backs.After which, they simply start carting around rear view mirrors. Problem solved. Even "taking the time to look around" covers it. Any well trained guard in a dangerous spot does it, so why wouldn't an adventurer? It would be just one more of those things, like a character falling from 20 miles up onto a pile of jagged rocks and then walking away after losing only a third of his hit points.Don't forget the 5% (or worse chance of death), even if you don't modify the save vs. massive damage.
Dragonteuthis 04-13-07, 12:01 AM	Attacking and carrying off arn't the same. True; I misread the original post. My bad! Luckily, I said to ignore that point, hehe. Total concealment. No reason for a Spot check because it would have been impossible to make. How did the Hawk get total concealment while moving up to the cat? Was it pitch black? Was the hawk invisible? Was the cat blind? Aside from those possibilities, I'm not sure how the Hawk would get total concealment while approaching the cat.[/QUOTE]
Dragonteuthis 04-13-07, 12:08 AM	Hehe, I can assure you that a hawk carrying a cat away is very possible. Not sure about what the rest of you guys have experienced, but here in Alaska the eagles take off with the tourists dogs every summer! Oh, when it comes to real life, absolutely! But a hawk's Grapple bonus is only 2 points higher than the cat's, plus by the rules it would have to grapple, then pin the cat, then succeed at successive grapple checks to carry it off. An eagle would have a far easier time of it, with its grapple check being eight points higher than the cat's, but that is a seperate creature :)
CedricBrooks 04-13-07, 12:14 AM	I've never heard of a hawk attacking anything the size of a cat. I have heard of cats, dogs and foxes(oh my!) attacking and killing hawks though, being a little too attentive to the passing cars while setting on the fence posts.
KurenaiYami 04-13-07, 12:29 AM	I've never heard of a hawk attacking anything the size of a cat. I have heard of cats, dogs and foxes(oh my!) attacking and killing hawks though, being a little too attentive to the passing cars while setting on the fence posts. Accipiters ('true hawks') probably wouldn't, but a large enough buteo ('buzzard hawk') might take a go at it if it's really hungry.
Magnus_the_Mad 04-13-07, 01:18 AM	Oh, when it comes to real life, absolutely! But a hawk's Grapple bonus is only 2 points higher than the cat's, plus by the rules it would have to grapple, then pin the cat, then succeed at successive grapple checks to carry it off. An eagle would have a far easier time of it, with its grapple check being eight points higher than the cat's, but that is a seperate creature :) I digress. You make perfect sense with the game rules and I should know better than to complicate a game that is purely for fun with real life semantics. :D It'd be a good wrestling match though :devil:
Cartigan 04-13-07, 06:21 AM	How did the Hawk get total concealment while moving up to the cat? Was it pitch black? Was the hawk invisible? Was the cat blind? Aside from those possibilities, I'm not sure how the Hawk would get total concealment while approaching the cat. Doesn't matter, it was moving from total concealment. You are getting bumrushed by a character you didn't see until right before it hit you, would you be caught flat-footed? Yes.
Tyraxus 04-13-07, 09:54 AM	How did the Hawk get total concealment while moving up to the cat? Was it pitch black? Was the hawk invisible? Was the cat blind? Aside from those possibilities, I'm not sure how the Hawk would get total concealment while approaching the cat.[/QUOTE] I already said it could have dived "out of the sun," or with the sun to its back the whole way. That would effectively grant total cover, since you can't see anything until it's close enough for its size to blot out the sun. As an added point, many if not most raptors do this by instinct.
daggeroflath 04-13-07, 10:13 AM	Someone approaching from behind, in front of the sun, hidden intangibly inside a wall, whatever... is never a justification for not allowing a spot check, it's a justification for allowing a hide check. Animals approaching instinctively from hard to spot areas are one of the reasons why many animals come pre-packaged with the hide skill.
Dragonteuthis 04-13-07, 02:51 PM	Doesn't matter, it was moving from total concealment. You are getting bumrushed by a character you didn't see until right before it hit you, would you be caught flat-footed? Yes. Yes. However; Flat-footed does not equal blind. A flat-footed character still gets his spot check. Can you go back and answer the original question please?
3DJutsu 04-13-07, 03:36 PM	Uhh, unless it was one big-ass bird, no way is it gonna attack something that can fight back.
DoomDuck 04-14-07, 04:58 PM	He was actively searching for a small vermin-esque animal, and the DM gave him a circumstance bonus because of it . This resulted in a total modifier of +22 (+12 nat, +10 circumstance) coupled with the +40 modifier of the-same-way-the-party-doesn't-get-killed-by-the-BBEG's-ninjas-every-night-while-the-sleep." I mean seriously, stuff happens. The DM doesn't have to justify everything through the rules. It isn't practicle. You could say the bird saw the cat earlier while pearched in a tree with near total concealment. He then went airborne and, armed with the location, description, and direction of the cat, used those modifiers along with his own substantial spot modifier to follow the cat from a distance which would negate spotting (as these jokers apparently do on instinct, I don't know, I'm not an ornothologist), and then attacked. Have none of you ever run a game before? You know that ogre standing there in a room with a treasure chest? Yea. Do you think the DM tracked his rations? His experience up to this point? The amount of sleep he got? No. It's bloody impracticle. The DM sets up fights for the player. They happen. Do you ask for justification for them? If there's no problem there then there is no problem here. Right-o. In total agreement, for the most part. The only thing is, the DM has to set up situations where the player can react to them. Having an arrow shoot out and kill a player and say "I don't need justification" is not cool. Similarly, saying the hawk was attacking from so far away the player couldn't have seen it no matter what, but the hawk could see him - well, that seems uncool to me. The player should have a chance, a Spot check or something, unless the DM is just being cruel. Which is fine, too, so long as it doesn't become a habit and isn't just to "put down" the player. That's just my take, though. ~DD
PwnageLlama 04-15-07, 01:56 AM	Why is this so important? You take 3 damage before nailing the hawk with an arrow. So what?
danielinthewolvesden 04-15-07, 03:03 AM	Spot allows you to notice something WHEN YOU LOOK IN ITS DIRECTION. If something comes at a character from behind/above then they aren't entitled to a spot check. . There are no directions, there is no "behind" in D20. Part of "Making a spot check" is determining whether or not you happened to be looking that direction. In any case, never say "no" just set the DC very high.