Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Reven Finale 12-01-03, 10:13 PM	I play with my best friend and we are always competing in everything we do. We are usually on par with each other on everything as well. Me and him are major power gamers so we make min/max characters every campaign. Hes decided to play a Monk in our most recent campaign and I a fighter. We are both level 3 as of now. We are always having our characters fight outside actual sessions just to see whos character is stronger. Hes totally got a killer strategy to beat me now and I don't know how to conquer over it with my Fighter. His Strategy: He always get to act first because he has a Iniative of 8. Mine being 3. He then runs up and atks me while I'm flatfooted doing Stunning Fist. He then stuns me. He then atks again doing Flurry Of Blows. Finally my turn. I had 27 HP at start, by now its around 10. He has 19 HP. I atk and somehow miss (His AC is 16). He atks again with Stunning Fist. Stuns me. Atks again with Flurry Of Blows. I fall. What I don't get is that I have a AC of 20 but he somehow hits. His Atk Bonus is 6. 4 with Flurry Of Blows. Mine is 7. 5 with TWF. Tell me my problem. What could I take next level that would kill him? I'm out for vengence.... :b: :fight!: :b:
Bopple 12-01-03, 10:18 PM	Well, it sounds like you have a problem with Holy Mother Dice Goddess. ;) And, one on one battle, fighter can hardly beat monk if you don't prepare your fighter with some specific maneuvers about trip and grapple.
AlphaKeny1 12-01-03, 10:24 PM	Personally, I would have went with a mount and a lance. So he may act first, stun you, and get off flurry of blows, but by the time your turn rolls around, you'd dish more than 30 damage max. Plus, you get an AoO before he hits you, with the lance being 10 feet long and all... The monk will usually beat you in melee combat, so I have no recommendation for short term strategies...
Nick Soapdish 12-01-03, 10:31 PM	Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon. You'll be able to make an attack of opportunity, even while flatfooted. Or get Great Fortitude for a better fortitude save. It really shouldn't be that hard for you to make the save against stunning fist already, but this'll boost it. Or take a second class that gets a good fortitude save. Or get Improved Initiative so he doesn't always beat your initiative roll. It might help if you give more details on your fighter. OTOH, it shouldn't be that hard to hit him or avoid getting hit either so maybe you're just skuppered. So maybe you just need to get new dice.
Reven Finale 12-01-03, 10:37 PM	Awsome suggestions. :cool: Thanks.
Glide 12-01-03, 11:03 PM	Poison the hilt of his blade before the combat starts. Lets see him judo-chop that. Or...use everything you have to your advantage. Use height for attack bonus's. Reach for AAO's. Use your superior strength to smack him around. And use your head. All fights can be won.
Koga:The ninja trick 12-01-03, 11:27 PM	The Koga has no rivals, inorder for one to have a rival one has to work to be better then said rival. And The Koga has made an art to lazyness.. But if this guy is better at making strong characters and his ego needs to be knocked down a peg, just do what The Koga would do. Get on the DM's good side and kill his character while he's alseep. True he may be now and always will be stronger, but you'll know you can get more people on your side. :smirk: Let that be a lesson to all you would be villans, conspiracies beat raw power. :b:
Thorak 12-01-03, 11:48 PM	One word; bow. Two words; throw daggers. You, as a fighter, get to use all martial weapons. Who says your little duels start off face to face? It weights the fight in your friend's favor, because he has a better initiative bonus. Or, if that's too much, use a polearm. He'll start off out of range, and have to provoke an AoO from you to even get close enough to TRY to stun you. And if he fails, you take a 5 foot step back and whack him.
HeWhoRoams 12-02-03, 01:09 AM	I think most of you failed to notice that these battles take place out of combat.... a monk has very few weaknesses, his high saves, and nice protection abilities make him hard. give him a save where one die roll decides it. thats all i can offer as an ex monk. I died from one die roll.
goblinhero 12-02-03, 01:45 AM	sounds like dice rolling problem. or you haven't min maxed properly. of course knowing some details about your fighter so that better advice can be given.
BlaineTog 12-02-03, 01:49 AM	Try throwing a flaming orc baby on a a chain at him. You can't tell me that a flaming orc baby on a chain isn't a reach weapon!!!! I'm kidding, people. *room exhales*
green_yawgmoth 12-02-03, 01:50 AM	Buy some amethyst dice from crystal caste. Swear to the Xammux, these things roll me in the upper 80% of the range, each of the dice in the set, nearly every time. Had them for a few months now, I've rolled a 1 about 5 times total. among 7 dice. I've rolled lower than 10 on the d20 maybe 4 times. My reasoning: Amethyst dice are filled with magical superpowers. PROVE ME OTHERWISE!
FOOL 12-02-03, 06:25 PM	Basicaly, Monks are actualy made for one on one combat. Fighters are made to take on large groups. There are exeptions, but unless you get some item that can either enhance you're Initiotive, or you're attack, don't try to beat him.
BenjCano 12-02-03, 06:33 PM	Maybe I'm missing something, but how high is the DC of his Stunning Fist? A 3rd level monk, even if we assume an 18 Wisdom, has a Stunning Fist DC of 15. By contrast, a 3rd level fighter ought to have at least a +5 modifier to his Fortitude save, and that's on the low end of the spectrum. You should be able to beat his save at least fifty percent of the time. You can't hit an AC 16? You should have at least a Masterwork weapon by now, and Strength modifier of +4, so your attack bonus ought to be at least +9 with Weapon Focus and all. If you post more, I might be able to be of more help, but it doesn't sound to me as if your fighter is very min maxed if he can't make a relatively easy Fortitude save at least half the time.
Edymnion 12-02-03, 06:54 PM	Originally posted by Reven Finale He then runs up and atks me while I'm flatfooted Well, one possible problem, why are you flatfooted? If both characters are aware of the other's presence, and that they are hostile, you're not flatfooted. Being flatfooted only applies when you are surprised. If your guys are just standing in proverbial arena getting ready to face off, you're both ready to rumble at full power. Other than that, you should be able to mop the floor with a 3rd level monk, they don't really get anything powerful until later levels.
AlphaKeny1 12-02-03, 07:43 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion Well, one possible problem, why are you flatfooted? If both characters are aware of the other's presence, and that they are hostile, you're not flatfooted. Being flatfooted only applies when you are surprised. If your guys are just standing in proverbial arena getting ready to face off, you're both ready to rumble at full power. No, at the start of battle, before your turn, you are considered flat-footed and lose your dexterity modifier to your AC (except people like barbarians who have Improved Uncanny Dodge, being able to keep their Dexterity mod to AC from being flat-footed). Your statement seems logical... but if, say, Jonny and Fred are beginning to fight, and Jonny is too fast for Fred, Fred wouldn't be able to react fast enough--thus his Dexterity is rendered obsolete and not in affect to avoid the attack. Reven Finale, listen to FOOL and don't fight your rival. Especially if you're still a fighter. The only exception would be to use ranged weapons or a mount, and that's the only things I can think of to help you.
primemover003 12-02-03, 08:10 PM	No you should be able to school the monk, fast as he is. The only problem you're having is the luck of the dice. Even with an initiative of +3 you can beat him. Or Ready an Action. When the monk approaches attack him. Reach weapons are nice and all but if has ranks of Tumble he's got at least 6 ranks and a good dex score so it's easy to hit DC 15 to enter the reach of the polearm user. AC 16 is cake my friend, Power attack!!! Use the Full Defense action first round and have the Combat Expertise Feat. Let him waste his stunning fists early and then go to town.
Reven Finale 12-02-03, 09:31 PM	Ahhh yes. Some very good advice from all of you. Thank you very much. My fighters stats are: 17 +3 16 +3 11 +0 15 +2 7 -2 10 +0 BAB +4 HP: 27 AC: 20 (With Dodge added and a Shield) His feats are: Weapon Pro. Two Bladed Sword TWF Weapon Focus Mobility Dodge My character is based on the two-bladed sword so I'm going to keep that and TWF. Anything else can be changed, according to my DM's say. I'd rather not explain the reason for this. I was planning on taking Spring Atk next level and put a point in STR to make it +4. I was also going to take a level of Barbarian to gain Fast Movement and Rage. So maybe its all a matter of leveling up to 4 now. I can however try the Mount/Lance Tactic or maybe take Improved Iniative. Or Combat Reflexes and a Polearm of some sort. What do you think?
Edymnion 12-02-03, 10:26 PM	n/m, you're right.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 12-02-03, 10:31 PM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Try throwing a flaming orc baby on a a chain at him. You can't tell me that a flaming orc baby on a chain isn't a reach weapon!!!! Well, now we know Toastytot's favored weapon.
Bopple 12-02-03, 10:33 PM	NM.
BenjCano 12-03-03, 01:19 AM	Originally posted by Reven Finale My character is based on the two-bladed sword so I'm going to keep that and TWF. Anything else can be changed, according to my DM's say. I'd rather not explain the reason for this. I was planning on taking Spring Atk next level and put a point in STR to make it +4. I was also going to take a level of Barbarian to gain Fast Movement and Rage. So maybe its all a matter of leveling up to 4 now. Word of advice regarding Spring Attack and two-weapon fighters: Don't. That's the sum of the advice right there, and anything I can say will only rinforce that basic point. Don't. You spent two feats on this thingy, and to use it you have to make the full attack action. You can't use it and Spring Attack together since SA requires you to take an attack action and a move action, just placing the attack action in the middle of the move action. Doing this will put you five feats in the hole. Even for a human fighter that doesn't come cheaply. If you want to be a dancing, nimble, graceful fighter, then do it. If you want to go two-weapon fu, then do that, but don't try to be both at once. Trade in Dodge for Improved Initiaticve and trade in Mobility for Combat Reflexes. Make your 4th level bonus feat Weapon Speacialization (two-bladed sword). Somewhere down the line, think about investing in Combat Expertise. Only when your BAB is higher, though. With that in mind, consider both the Dervish and Exotic Weapon Master prestivge classes from the Complete Warrior. By the way, if you're a third level character, your base attack bonus is NOT +4.
Nick Soapdish 12-03-03, 02:42 AM	If your DM is flexible on feats, I'd ditch Mobility. I guess it's not a bad feat, but it's main point is to lead to Spring Attack which I agree isn't in your best interests to take. I'm not especially attached to any feats to take in replacement for it. I did mention a couple above, but I don't consider them to be terribly desirable. Improved Initiative is OK and it'll help you get your Dex bonus that first round, but you really shouldn't need Great Fortitude. Maybe you could get started on the Combat Expertise chain. It wouldn't be a bad feat to use for the first round of combat to boost your AC up a few points (3 max at your current level). But the Combat Expertise feats probably don't help as much against the monk. Trip wouldn't be bad, but you couldn't Disarm him. At 4th level, I'd probably stick with fighter and get Weapon Specialization if you're that fond of the two-bladed sword. BTW, how are you using a shield anyway?
Taran Alvein 12-03-03, 03:07 PM	BenjCano, you missed a key point to his having Spring Attack. He may be going for Whirlwind Attack. We don't know that yet. And if he is, he has to have Spring Attack to get Whirlwind Attack.
primemover003 12-03-03, 03:36 PM	It's still a waste of feats to get though. He gains no advantage over a single weapon fighter with whirlwind attack. Each fighter would get 1 attack @ highest BAB vs each adjacent enemy. He loses out on that second weapon. As a TWF you should continue along the TWF chain, and try to squeeze in Combat Expertise along the way for more AC.
dantedarkstar 12-04-03, 09:45 AM	Hmm... Two-Weapon Defense (= +1 shield bonus to AC), not 100% sure if it can be done with double weapon. More Con ? (come on, min-maxed fighter WITHOUT Con bonus ?) Start your duels further away, so no charge in first round ?
primemover003 12-04-03, 03:39 PM	TWO-WEAPON DEFENSE [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting. Benefit: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC. When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2. Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Reven Finale 12-04-03, 06:33 PM	I'm absorbing everything you all are saying. I'm switching things around to make him more effective. Thanks for all your tips. I'm trying to implement them all.
goblinhero 12-04-03, 07:46 PM	why do you have a 15 Int? first off, to optimize this character you should allocate your stats differently str 17 dex 15 con 16 int 11 wis 10 chr 7 ... is what i would do if you really need that high Int for some reason that I can't see switch dex and int around. what armor are you wearing? you can't use a shield with a two bladed sword. why spring attack? if you really want to make sure that monk doesn't beat you, take great fortitude so you save against his stunning attacks and you'll be better off at taking him out. instead of taking a level of bbn you may as well go ftr 4 for the extra bonus feat.
Reven Finale 12-06-03, 07:45 PM	I took everything you all said and recrafted my guy today. I also fought my rival today and kicked the crap out of him 7 times in a row. He couldn't accept defeat....He might havew to come here and ask you guys how to beat a Fighter with a Monk. He now says that a Monk can't beat a fighter because of that "awsome power". Funny huh?
Dauntless 12-06-03, 09:59 PM	Originally posted by Reven Finale I took everything you all said and recrafted my guy today. I also fought my rival today and kicked the crap out of him 7 times in a row. He couldn't accept defeat....He might havew to come here and ask you guys how to beat a Fighter with a Monk. He now says that a Monk can't beat a fighter because of that "awsome power". Funny huh? Monk vs Fighter: Disarm Disarm Disarm! :)
goblinhero 12-07-03, 02:43 AM	Originally posted by Reven Finale I took everything you all said and recrafted my guy today. I also fought my rival today and kicked the crap out of him 7 times in a row. He couldn't accept defeat....He might havew to come here and ask you guys how to beat a Fighter with a Monk. He now says that a Monk can't beat a fighter because of that "awsome power". Funny huh? what "awsome power"? you mean the power of the feat? cause thats the only department the fighter excels in.
Reven Finale 12-07-03, 02:37 PM	Exactly.
Mr. Fahrenheit 12-08-03, 01:57 PM	I know *my* money's on the fighter. Stunning fist just gets resisted by naturally high fort. and the monk just can't beat a fighter's full BAB and larger hit dice. Also, the fighter needs notable fewer (high) ability scores to be effective in combat. The Monk would need at least 16 in Str, Con, Wis and Dex to even begin to compete. I think the monk's strong point is fighting mages. It certainly isn't mano-a-mano combat with fighters.
goblinhero 12-08-03, 07:15 PM	Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit I know *my* money's on the fighter. Stunning fist just gets resisted by naturally high fort. and the monk just can't beat a fighter's full BAB and larger hit dice. Also, the fighter needs notable fewer (high) ability scores to be effective in combat. The Monk would need at least 16 in Str, Con, Wis and Dex to even begin to compete. I think the monk's strong point is fighting mages. It certainly isn't mano-a-mano combat with fighters. na.... monks can compete without high scores in those attributes. if the monk tries to go toe to toe and trade blows, then of course not, he can't compete but what sane monk is going to do that? not any monk I build or play.
Mr. Fahrenheit 12-09-03, 07:39 PM	How would *you* handle this, exactly? Poison him in his sleep? Lure him into a nest of owlbears? I can see where you might be able to get away with a 14 in CON but that's about it. You need a high WIS and DEX to get any armor and STR to hit.
Reven Finale 12-10-03, 06:22 PM	....well I wouldn't kill him. If I killed him I'd have no rival to compete with anymore would I?
Lago AM3P 12-10-03, 06:27 PM	TIP FOR FIGHTERS: If you ever get into an embarrassing enough situation where a high-level monk needs to be taken seriously, start flying. Even if the monk starts flying, you win.
Reven Finale 12-10-03, 06:31 PM	Where do you expect me to get that Fly ability from? My secret levels of Sorcerer that I forgot to mention?
Lago AM3P 12-10-03, 06:46 PM	That was just a generic suggestion. If you are a high-level fighter in a team game, which you are, gaining the ability to fly should be trivial.
gerbilattack 12-10-03, 09:02 PM	Use a springloaded gauntlet /w bolts of monk-slaying or stunning/paralysing or gunpowder;)
gerbilattack 12-10-03, 09:27 PM	probobly next lvl rouge 1.steal ring of fire immunity 2.steal/buy gunpowder & small leather (or cloth) sacks 3.fill with gunpowder 4. pad everywhere with sacks punch hit hard, sacks go BOOM!!!
Mr. Fahrenheit 12-11-03, 10:25 AM	I didn't mean actually kill him. I'm just looking for suggestions on how the monk is supposed to win an encounter against a fighter of equal levels. I'm(My primary character is) a monk and I just don't see it happening. The fighter is a combat machine, the monk is more varied. Point: Fighter
goblinhero 12-11-03, 02:23 PM	Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit I didn't mean actually kill him. I'm just looking for suggestions on how the monk is supposed to win an encounter against a fighter of equal levels. I'm(My primary character is) a monk and I just don't see it happening. The fighter is a combat machine, the monk is more varied. Point: Fighter its all about character creation... what feats you take. a monk can win if played properly. as I said above, no monk should stand head to head with a fighter and trade blows, that's just stupid.
BenjCano 12-11-03, 02:24 PM	A Dwarcen, Orcish, or Tiefling monk in a dark room.
Mr. Fahrenheit 12-21-03, 04:14 PM	*Please* tell me what you mean by 'played properly.' How would you do it?
Heron_Marked_Blade 12-21-03, 05:30 PM	Originally posted by Mr. Fahrenheit *Please* tell me what you mean by 'played properly.' How would you do it? I think the generally accepted anti-fighter tactics are either the grapple/improved trip route or the mobility/spring attack route...or both. A monk's strength lies in his speed, so don't stand still and let the fighter take a full attack. At maximum, the fighter should only ever get one attack on you each round. If he's grappled, he can't even do that unless he breaks out of your hold. In the hold, he can't use that greatsword to hit you, etc. If you win control of the grapple, you can do unarmed damage each round until he's finished. It might be wise to invest in some Oriental Adventures feats (if your DM allows those) such as Falling Star Strike or Freezing the Lifeblood (blindness and paralysis, respectively). Once one of those lands, the fighter's at your mercy. Think of your monk as a special forces member: you strike and fade away, then strike again when the advantage is yours. Use the terrain to your advantage (unless you're fighting in a 50'x50' empty stone room, in which case the advantage goes to the fighter.
Silimaure 12-22-03, 03:13 AM	Originally posted by BenjCano A Dwarcen, Orcish, or Tiefling monk in a dark room. Tieflings don't have darkvision, just darkness once per day. When all else fails, buy a few wands of fireball and learn how to use em :angel:
Reven Finale 12-22-03, 11:24 AM	Despite I can beat my rival now, hes still rather difficult to fight. Hes become even more difficult as of now because he just took Spring Attack. Not to mention we are both level 6 now. So we are getting there in the power department in terms of fighting. So far what has done my rival (Monk) in the most is the mounted combat/Lance path as well as the two weapon fighting. Charging at him 1 on 1 and doing triple damage with that lance really overkills him. When he gets sick of getting hit by that and decides to fight up close he can't handle my 3 hits. First two hits by the TWF and the the next hit because I'm level 6. It doesn't help him at all that I took a level of Barbarian meaning I can Rage and have Fast Movement. So.... You get the idea. :smirk:
BenjCano 12-22-03, 11:38 AM	Originally posted by Silimaure Tieflings don't have darkvision, just darkness once per day. They've got both.