Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psimind25 12-28-04, 08:54 PM	hi there, i am having a problem fitting in to dnd groups. its just the classes i like to lay and never allowed (psionics, even if i show the DM the new book). as for other classes. ive never been scessful or even had that much fun playing a barbarian/fighter/rouge/ranger/paladin/monk because it just didnt feel like i was having fun when i played them and i did a horrible job as them. Clerics i can do a good job with, but it feels its like a job being a traditional "walking Band-aid" cleric. i hae fun playing the evil-killing BOED using cleric using the War and Good Domains. but the the others tell at me for focusing on killing evil more than healing, i still do it. i just end up making eradicating the evil a priority and heal after a fight. (nd thus my party guilt tripsme and causes t to be not fun because it takes the fun away from others) Arcane Wizards and Sorcerers i ave problems with. because i feel restricted i my casting. because i cant cast aything but Magic Missle and not **** off my group and get kicked out. Bards, In my opinion, are the most difficult class to play as i get really frustrated and usually dont survive the early levels. Psionics i tend to do better with and i have a lot of fun. Psichic warriors are my favorite melee class, as still et plenty of owers to choses from the Expanded Knowledge Feat. Psions feel more open and esier to use than a Sorcerer or Wizard. as lss of the powers are as dagerous to use as most arcane magic. Wilders are just overkill in my opinion. Psions are good enough. so im stuck here. id really lke to try eberron so i can try artificer, but everyone likes forgotten realms much more. was getting the eberron book a bad purchase? what do you think i should do so i can have better luck with DMs?
Psimind25 12-28-04, 10:18 PM	Shameles bump.
e-z0r 12-28-04, 10:59 PM	You bumped a thread after an hour and a half? I didn't understand the part about wizards and sorcerers. Could you rephrase? Is it that you're low-level so you feel you don't have good enough spells and they dislike you because of that? Or is it that you're playing high-level and you fear you're making them jealous 'cause wizards rock? What makes the psionic warrior so likable to you? The way you can make one that kicks ass, or something else in the characters you make when you're playing a psion? Try to give that something else to a character made from the PHB. If you can't figure out a way to make a character powerful in combat, you should either learn, or you should focus less on how good you're at combat and more on roleplaying. Create a character with backgrounds and plenty of fluff, so as to make it alive, like a living, breathing person that you can relate to and imagine being. It might make the character more interesting to play. The DM has every right to turn down psions. If he hasn't read the psionics book, he won't know the rules about psionics(also, if you're a new player, perhaps he wouldn't trust you to explain psionics correctly), and reading up on them might just take too long, especially if he's got a session to run at the time. And finally, if the DM decides psionics doesn't have a space in his campaign world, then it doesn't, regardless of whether using them would be a nuisance or not.
Board_Rider 12-28-04, 11:14 PM	When you say "have better luck with DMs", how many DM's do you game with? Sadly, to some, psions just are not allowed in many campaigns for a myriad of reasons. So ya got to options: 1. Quit playing 2. Adapt Seeing as you will probably wish to take the latter rather than the former, you need to change your game buddy. Read some fantasy books and "steal" one of those concepts. As for EBBERON? Well, my friend owns it and it looks pretty good. A bit high in magic, but nice.
Psimind25 12-28-04, 11:59 PM	what i meant by arcane magic is that people get ****** off when a con e or AOE hit them because they were all i had left after usig my Magic missle. because fighters allways win initaitive and charge first turn. and are engaged every which way so they can flant. making cones hard to aim to not hurt people. i just find it kinda stupid to have your wizard charge too and hit with his staff jst because his spells will hort others. Psionics have far fwer of these AOE/cone spells, giving me more flexibility and more control so i dont have to hirt my friends to attack the enemies. i like psychic warriors because their powers are more usefull than Paladin/ranger/druid/bard magic. i dont know what i should do.
Board_Rider 12-29-04, 12:24 AM	Well, when put that way, it sounds as if there is a tactical problem more than a class problem. If your fellow party members keep running into the middle of the scrum and keep effectively making your spells worthless you could try: Getting more utility/defensive spells More illusion spells Warn them of the impending fireball about to come down.
e-z0r 12-29-04, 12:29 AM	And you have the kind of character who can't under any circumstances speak with the other party characters and tell them NOT to charge until you've cast your Sleep or whatever you're casting to help the party? Nooo, any sensible wizard will just mutter into his beard and eventually leave the party, yes.
Psimind25 12-29-04, 02:15 AM	the players of the fighters done care, they value themselves to important, (they think theyre better than me because fighters are "better" thasn any casting or noncombat class) i just seem to not have problems like this with a psion, i can just do what i want withot the fighters conflicting with me because il be hurting the mnsters and not them as long as dont manefest powers that are aoe. ie. i uually play a shaper anyway. arcane magic wouldent be so bad if the others schools besides Abjration and Evocation didnt suck. illusion is for rouges, enchanting would be deemed evil by the LG characters. amd conjurtion and divination just isnt as good and metacreativity and Clairsentience.
e-z0r 12-29-04, 02:29 AM	And you can't tell the fighters to not charge in until AFTER you've thrown the spell, so they can fight the creatures much more easily? If they still don't care, then you should talk to the DM. The DM should make encounters more difficult, so you actually have to have tactics in order to bring the critters down and not lose any players.
Grox 12-29-04, 02:53 AM	hi there, i am having a problem fitting in to dnd groups. its just the classes i like to lay I know what you mean . . . it seems like everyone and his brother wants their character to hook up with the elven bard. Now me, I'll take a half-elf sorceress any day
PaTRiXXX 12-29-04, 03:09 AM	One of the games I enjoyed best was one year ago. No one in my group had a lot of experience playing (myself included) but I used to spend lot of time in Character Optimization Board. Everyone in the group played tanks and archers (nothing else, even the cleric was MUCH more melee than magic) so I played a bard and optimized him, and as no one was much used to spells I was someone really important for scouting, for diplomacy, for arcane spells, for knoledge and for healing. I suggest you to try an optimized bard but only if the rest of your group has very little skill users, casters or healers (as seems to be your case). PD: if you play a bard buy a hat of disguise, and make a search in CO board for help with character creation.
Psimind25 12-29-04, 09:38 AM	dont reall now, bards were uually too hard for me to play, the classes im really sed to are psionic classes. arcane ends up in disaster, wepons oriented i can never get into. bards are just too difficult in my opinion (i thnk they were made to e played by veterans) i tried talking to the dm, he said i should adjust using my spells to cater to the hack and slash fighters. how am i supposedto do that if im an evoker?
General Dorsey 12-29-04, 09:56 AM	i tried talking to the dm, he said i should adjust using my spells to cater to the hack and slash fighters. how am i supposedto do that if im an evoker? First, your DM is wrong. Unless you are trying to play a support character, you shouldn't cater to anyone else in the group. Second, there are plenty of spells that deal direct damage without having a large area of effect. You could also consider casting some protection spells on them prior to your fireball. To play any caster or manifester effectively, you need to prepare. You have to know exactly what your spells/powers can do and how they can be stopped. To me it's one of the best parts of playing a wizard. Third, you may want to continue looking for a group that you are compatible with. When you find that group, let the old group know that you had fun with them, but you think you may have found a group that fits your gaming style better. Good luck.
Ty 12-29-04, 09:58 AM	Here are a few pointers. First, for the benefit of other board members, please double check your spelling and sentence structure. As for the real advice, I won't tell you to forget about psionics but for the most part, psionics will not be a common element used in many games. Therefore, you may like a psionicist of some sort, but try to get over it unless you specifically enter a game where it is an established part of the campaign. As for your tactics in fighting and such, the best advice I can give you is read the spell descriptions. Make a listing on a set of index cards of all cone spells, all line spells, all direct target spells, etc. Each spell description includes an area of effect section so its not that hard to locate. Research cool uses for lame spells here on the boards. Grease, Shatter, Enthrall, and other seemingly useless spells all have a place in the game if you are creative. In terms of what type of class you play, you're what our group considers the aggressive spellslinger. You seem to want to be able to beat your enemies down with your spells or through combat. There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. However, spellcasters aren't merely nukers. On the same token, they also are not the wilting lilies standing behind the warriors either. Your best bet is to check the Redgar repository and the character optimization board for the compilations related to playing a wizard or cleric, selecting spells, and constructing an effective build.
Thoronmir 12-29-04, 10:02 AM	You really only want to play Psionic classes, but your DM doesn’t use Psionics. I hate to sound harsh, but you might consider quitting. If it’s not fun for you, why play? Or at least try to find another group (one that allows Psionics). After 25 years of playing D&D, I’ve found that I really enjoy playing Rangers. I don’t always get to since I sometimes join games that already have a Ranger (and I disdain duplication, especially in our typical four or five player groups). So, if another player has already claimed the Ranger “slot” for the party, I go a different direction. However, your situation is akin to joining a game in which the DM decides there are no Rangers. No one gets to use that class. I probably wouldn’t stay in such a group. But then, I’m old and grouchy. If you don’t have other gaming options or you just really want to stay with your current group, your DM has told you what you need to do. Adjust your tactics to support the fighters. It’s as simple as tweaking your spell repertoire a little. The other members of your party obviously feel that they don’t need your firepower to succeed. So help in other ways. You may not be able to play exactly the type of PC you want. But it’s up to you.
Psimind25 12-29-04, 10:06 AM	the problem is that the fighters and whatnot allways charge in every fight. despite me telling them to hold up. (this was us vs. a large goblin raiding party.) i couldve thinned out their hp and even numbers probably. but no, Ub3r l337 Half orc fightz0r wanted to great cleave though each one. but what other spells are there besides magic missle? the other spells are passive and dont help in a war/conflict. which all my games are a war, verry little diplomacy and investigation. mostly its just "kill all the evil".
Santrilla 12-29-04, 10:56 AM	You're right, there actually aren't that many long-range low-level spells without AoEs. But if you don't mind getting near the enemies, there's a myriad of choices- shocking grasp and chill touch spring to mind. As well as Ray of Frost, Acid Splash, Melf's Acid Arrow... Consider taking a Summon Monster spell and let it do the fighting. And don't underestimate the passive spells! A well cast Sleep can make all your foes helpless, and that means coup-de-grace city. As for the AoE spells, tell your party members that they can wait a round before charging in. Your fireball will weaken and diminish the enemies, making it easier for your fellow fighters to finish them off. And if they don't want to move out of the way they'd better improve their reflex saves. EDIT: Okay, I found my Player's Handbook. :P Other things you can use in combat against single targets are Magic Weapon, True Strike (VASTLY underestimated- turn your wizard into a hitting machine!), Cause Fear, Ray of Enfeeblement and Reduce Person. And that's just 1st level!
e-z0r 12-29-04, 10:59 AM	Well, for one thing, it's obvious the DM isn't challenging you guys enough if he gives you encounters where you can just rush in and hack away like you were out threshing grain. They'll see you being useful when you Hold Person the b1tch of a BBEG that was right about to kill all those moronic melee bashers. And besides, your character doesn't really NEED to be that useful in fights if the bashers can handle the fights anyway. If they think you're inferior because of it, just have your character give them a slight demonstration of how you'd utterly destroy them if they look at you sideways again. That'll put the fear of god in them. But anyway, if you're insisting on playing psionic (as you seem to be), and you're game group doesn't do psionics, then you leave and find another group. I'm sorry, but it's a bend or break situation. Either change the way you're doing things, or leave and find another place which will accomodate what you want to do.
Psimind25 12-29-04, 11:19 AM	summon monster has very weak amimals and stuff. while a Psion can use Astal Construct which is even better than summon monster. summon monster doent get decent till summon monster 5 or 6.
Shazarn 12-29-04, 12:31 PM	So you already tried telling the fighters that you were going to cast fireball first round and then they charged and you didn't, right? Well if that is the case tell them again that you are going to cast fireball and when they disregard you do it anyways and then yell at them because they were in the way. If they still act like they don't need you don't do anything for an encounter and see how they like it.
Thoronmir 12-29-04, 12:37 PM	summon monster has very weak amimals and stuff. while a Psion can use Astal Construct which is even better than summon monster. summon monster doent get decent till summon monster 5 or 6. So quit your current group and find one that allows Psionics. This last response by you smacks of obstinacy. You need to embrace the fact that your group doesn’t use Psionics, so such comparisons are meaningless. It’s like if the fighter whined about having to use a longsword because he’d be able to use a Light Saber in the Star Wars RPG. Sorry, but those rules don’t apply to your DM’s world. If you can’t stop grieving over what you don’t have in this game, you’ll never be satisfied and you’ll never have fun.
Psimind25 12-29-04, 02:03 PM	i had quit my previous game and looked everywhere, no campeigns that allow psionics, why are they so against them?
DeathMagus 12-29-04, 02:09 PM	As a DM who had his players also show him the new psionics book and ask for characters, I know how difficult it is to jump right into psionic rules. I'm adapting, borrowing the psionic book and reading up on it so it can eventually be included in my campaign, but it's not easy. Try to ease your DM into it. Introduce it gradually. Offer to take a character a level or two below standard, so as to alleve any worries of overpowered material. Just be understanding - your DM will either come around or he won't.
Board_Rider 12-29-04, 02:24 PM	i had quit my previous game and looked everywhere, no campeigns that allow psionics, why are they so against them? Oh man there are so many threads on this. DM's: Don't know the system Think it's overpowered Bad flavor for D&D Hate the idea Just don't like it for other reasons It's too bad, but thems the brakes. Try other classes such as the Swashbuckler, Warlock or Favored Soul if ya got the books. Complete Warrior/Devine Complete Arcane
spasheridan 12-29-04, 03:40 PM	summon monster has very weak amimals and stuff. while a Psion can use Astal Construct which is even better than summon monster. summon monster doent get decent till summon monster 5 or 6. I beg to differ on this one. Summon monster works just fine. Obviously a summon monster 1 spell doesn't pack quite the oomph against cr 3 enemies, but against CR 1 enemies it's fine. Don't forget about flanking bonuses, aid another, and special attacks (like trip and grapple) that the creatures can use. I find the summon list just dandy. the problem is that the fighters and whatnot allways charge in every fight. despite me telling them to hold up. (this was us vs. a large goblin raiding party.) i couldve thinned out their hp and even numbers probably. but no, Ub3r l337 Half orc fightz0r wanted to great cleave though each one. This, my friend, is whats called dealing with what is. Your teammates play a certain way. If there are more of them then you... you have to change, not them. But a helpful hint... cut out some templates. I make fireball, cone of cold, color spray, and sleep templates. Make them to scale with your battlemap. You'd be surprised... with a little adjusting of locations and positions how many enemies you can still get in the blast even with the PCs in the midst of the fight. but what other spells are there besides magic missle? the other spells are passive and dont help in a war/conflict. which all my games are a war, verry little diplomacy and investigation. mostly its just "kill all the evil". The list of usefull spells is extensive. You have a few categories of spells: 1) Buffs. These spells are helpful to buff the party. Haste, Bull Strength, Heroism.. you get the idea. Spells that help the tanks hit harder or more often. 2) Defenses. These spells help YOU get the heck out of the way and the tanks not get hit. Blur, Mirror Image, Fly, Invisibility, Mage Armor, Shield, stoneskin... 3) Utility Spells. These spells help you outside of combat and sometimes in it. KNock, Rope Trick, Identify, Darkvision, See invisibility, levitate, mount, teleport. 4) Save or Dies. These spells incapacitate people. Hold Person, Hold Monster, Charm Person, Finger of Death, Baleful Polymorph, Ottilukes Resiliant sphere. 5) Control the area. These spells shape the battlefield. Wall of fire / force / stone / ice. Web. Stinking Cloud. These spells deny areas to enemies so they CAN'T enter them.... I'm sure you can imagine a million ways this is helpful. 6) Area Nukes. Usefull against large groups of enemies. Fireball, Lightning Bolt, COne of cold, Ice storm. These sound like your favorite spells. 7) Single target damage spells. These spells are more selective. Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Enervation, Flame Arrow, Melfs Acid Arrow, Chain Lightning. 8) Debuffs. THese spells weaken opponents. Fear, Ray of Enfeeblment, Touch of Idiocy, Slow. Look at that huge list. Look at all the differant things wizards can do. You focus on a single type of attack.. the fireball. Check out all the other ways you can do things. The way my favorite wizard plays is the following. 1) It's all about the wizard. 1st things first is always a defensive spell, maybe fly or mirror image. 2) Meatshields are great. THe wizard loves having meatshileds in the party (aka, the rest of the party members are his meatshields). The meatshields inflict damage and he doesn't even have to cast spells. Maybe he'll buff the meatshields if they need it, but if the meatshields are doing OK then the wizard just hangs back and smokes. 3) Choose your targets wisely. The wizard is always checking out the battlefield, and if he sees a target that is causing some problems to a meatshield (or .. gasp.. himself!) that target gets taken down fast. So the wizard needs to keep his spells in reserve until the moment arrives. 4) When you nuke, nuke hard. THe wizard always casts his most damaging / debilitating spells first. The point it.. if you're going to use up spells, make sure you do it fast. Once you start firebombing an opponent he's going to notice you and come swinging, so drop him quick. A wizard is not a fighter. A wizard has few spells a day and should let the tanks do most of the work. Wizards are there for the few moments of combat each day that the spell artilery is needed, and some utiltity spells outside of combat. Double check Rope Trick an you'll see what I mean. i had quit my previous game and looked everywhere, no campeigns that allow psionics, why are they so against them? Hrm. Well, the DM has to learn the psionic rules. The DM has to buy the psionic book. Previous incarnations of psionic rules have been hideously broken and now no one wants to bother with it anymore. Psionics is so much like magic that it's pointless to add it in. The camaign is created in a homebrew worls and the DM can't think of a way to add Psionics into his mythology. Honestly, there are about a million bjillion ways to play D&D without psionics and get 95 % of the psionic material into the game. It's almost identical. If your bored with these ideas, try a druid. Get a riding dog as an animal companion. Give it barding. Get a monks belt. Wildshape into a polar bear, cast barksin on yourself, and go to town. WHen your bored you can cast entagle and flame strike. You can spontaneously summon monsters. Check out the druids summon list...
Santrilla 12-29-04, 06:32 PM	I once DMd a campaign with a psion. I didn't really understand the rules (namely the importance of will saves) as I was quite a new DM at that point, and needless to say psionics can wreak absolute havoc on the unprepared DM. Why bother trying to kill a monster when you can just mind control it and make it break its own neck? My view of psionics is that it's way overpowered and requires a lot of counterbalancing within a campaign to be effective... and I'd rather just not bother, and make my players play something normal. If you can't find a DM who likes psionics, adapt. Find a way to make a class work for you- check out the Character Optimisation boards for a start.
Psimind25 12-29-04, 07:20 PM	if arcane magic is so hard and complex, and psionics is shunned, what else am i supposed to do. i dont like druids because they arent pure casting, they fight too. if im gonna use special abilities and fight. then id rather do it so its effective (ie. a psychic warrior). so i honestly dont know what to do anymore.
James Wildspell 12-29-04, 07:59 PM	Tell us what it is, and we will cut and paste it for you to quote. Not that it will matter, the DM is the Rules, the Rules are the DM.
Psimind25 12-29-04, 08:52 PM	this is so irratating.... basically people are saying i can never be what i have fun with.....
Zetakya 12-29-04, 09:28 PM	Yeah, well unfortuanately for you, there are 4 or 5 other players at the table and they want to have fun too, so if they don't want Psionics, they don't want Psionics. Personally I disallow Psi because it doesn't fit into my campaign world and when you allow Psi in, everyone and their dog wants to play as one, which is breaking for the game story. My advice to you is to tell the other players in your group, in a loud voice, that you are going to Fireball the next pack of creatures. Then proceed to do so, even if they charge. Remind them that they can delay action until after you cast and still get a charge in. If they choose to ignore you, nuke their asses, and they will either learn, or die.
James Wildspell 12-29-04, 09:29 PM	And then please everyone equally. Forget for a moment what you want to do. Pretend that you are a DM and a new player wants to join your game. You have a GRAND idea for a campaign that includes Psionics in a major way. Suppose further that your current players are all into this style of play. But say that what your new player wants is a chance for her PC to marry a Prince, or even a King. And to role-play the entire thing, down to her choice of shoes. What do you do next? :cool:
armygamer26 12-29-04, 09:50 PM	Ok, I think this is the real issue here: You are completely bent on playing a psionic character, and no matter what anyone suggests, or how they suggest you take care of the "problems" with the other characters, you will just find some reason why it won't "work" for you. If you can't play anything but a psionic character, and the DM won't allow psionics, don't play in the campaign. It is THAT simple. Druids are plenty effective, mages and sorcerors have plenty of spells that are very useful that are NOT AoE/cone. Here is a list of basic examples ONLY from the PHB: Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Flaming Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Vampiric Touch, Flame Arrow, Nightmare, Chain Lightning, Circle of Death, Undeath to Death, Disintegrate, Power word blind, Limited Wish, Mordenkainen's sword, symbol of death, wail of the banshee, etc... Now, add to those all of the area affect spell, combat control, party buffing etc, and you will notice that they are plenty diverse, and there are plenty of things that you can do that won't nuke the fighters. And if that isn't good enough for you or too complicated, try a warlock, all direct damage, all the time. -Brendan
e-z0r 12-29-04, 11:53 PM	Mister Psimind25. Lately your replies have been reeking of bullheadedness. You won't take any suggestions or answers, you just keep on whining no matter what people here tell you. I will tell you right now: that attitude is going to get you absolutely nowhere. If you can't but hang on to your sweet misery of not being able to play a psionic, then you can just as well take the issue the hell out of here. Whine to the family pet or something. Start playing Kimble or Monopoly or whatever the hell. If you're not willing to look past the self-absorbent whinyness, then you might as well stop bothering other people with it. As has been said several times before, you have two choices: 1. Adapt 2. Quit Whining isn't going to help.
Psimind25 12-30-04, 11:18 AM	why am i forced to adapt to classes i fail at miserably? im only good at psionics, and i cause nothing but grief for other players when i play classes i dont understand the dynamics. sure. wizards and socereres have diversit. WHEN THEY ARE LEVEL 10 AND UP! Psions get more choices at LEVEL 1! If wizards and sorcerer interesting effect spells similar to a lot of psionics i enjoy. (Astral Construct, Entangling Ectoplasm, ectoplasmic form, ectoplasmic shambler.) and im being bullheaded because ive tried these other classes again and again, and no matter how hard i try, i a.can never be accepted by others because they end up hating me because im so bad at the class (often the case with wizard/sorcerers and most weapons orented.) b. i dont have fun with the class because im forced to play it the way that makes the group happy (ie. i only have fun with a cleric if i play an offensive war/good cleric. rather than the Healing/protection domained ones THEY want me to play.) Druids its the same way as cleric, i like to be a heavy offensive spell druid like using Miasma, entangle etc. but they rather me be the buffing medic just like with cleric.
striderII 12-30-04, 11:43 AM	why am i forced to adapt to classes i fail at miserably? I'm not sure if you're criminally stupid, or if somebody hasn't taught you this very simple premise of D&D yet, but: DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS IS A ***GROUP*** ACTIVITY!!!!! YOU ARE NOT AN ISLAND, NOR ARE YOU A UNIQUE AND SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE! Ahem. Now, you have a few options. The first option is to actually shut the hell up with the whining, and LISTEN to the suggestions earlier in this thread. Then you can try to play the classes that you "fail miserably" at. A bit of practice, and you will improve at playing those other classes. Nobody jumps right into this game (or any other RPG) knowing every in and out of the system. That's why you came to these boards, right, to get answers to a question? The second option is that you can sit in the corner, pout like a little child, and refuse to play by anyone else's rules. You could also take your ball and go home - I'm sure nobody will care, if you're as whiny in real life as you are on these boards. Also, if you are totally dead-set against option one, then, we can't help you. If you continue this obsession with psionic characters, and won't play anything else, and continue to whine, then you are far too self-centered and annoying for this hobby. Please find another. strider
striderII 12-30-04, 11:50 AM	Oh, wait - I forgot the third option. It seems like the rest of your group is filled with self-centered, "I want to kill everything and take all the glory" idiots. These are the people I'd love to beat with a stick. Try finding a more reasonable group (although pretty much expect them to not want psionics - that way, if they *do* allow psionics, then you're happy, but if they don't, then you're prepared), that may actually do things like *teamwork*. I know this is a difficult concept for some people to figure out, but it's what works in this game. Of course, your description of the rest of your party may be put through your whiny lens of distortion, but if not, then try finding a more mature group. If you continue to be bullheaded with them as well, then perhaps my hobby-changing suggestion above is appropriate for you. strider
Psimind25 12-30-04, 11:55 AM	please, have you listened to what else i said in that post, i explained why i have such a hard time with other classes. because people "expect" me to play them a certain way like its everquest or something. they "expect" clerics to be pure medics whem my build proved that they can be far more than that. im just tired of failing at these classes. ive played a cleric in over 5 campeigns now and it allways ends the same way. people shun me for doing war and good and taing most of my spells as evil-destroying spells as oppsed to healing/buffs. i still use healing and buffs, but usually before a battle or afterward. we usually have more than one cleric anyway, so why do they get so upset? ive did a druid 3 times, but people got upset for the same reason as cleric, i wasnt keeping the half-orc fighter healed and buffed.... as much as he wouldve liked. (ie. he wanted "to be a Invincble fighting god whos invicible because his walking band-aid makes it s he neaver loses hp and his attacks are instant kills." that was his actual words, he was a 14 year old.) so i dont know what i should do.....
striderII 12-30-04, 12:01 PM	Y'know, I did read the rest of the post, but your difficulty in playing other character types to your group's expectations was drowned out by the sound of your constant whiny team-killing. (Okay, not really team-killing, but I wanted to have a bit of a backhanded Red vs. Blue reference). But, seriously, that's why I put up my second post (the "Third Option"). Use another group as a litmus test. If you still "fail" at other classes (which, I wouldn't say you "fail", exactly, just that your group is retarded), then, yes, find another hobby, or an entirely new group/area to play in. Your new post brings a question to mind - how old are you, and the players in this group? That may be very important. strider
Board_Rider 12-30-04, 12:03 PM	Indeed. How old is your group besides the 14 y/o?
MoogleEmpMog 12-30-04, 12:22 PM	1. Arcane blasting spells (fireball, lightning bolt, even magic missile) are very weak in D&D 3.5, provided that you fight monsters rather than other humanoids. I can understand your frustration, coming from the better balanced psion/psywar trees, who are stronger at low levels and weaker at high levels. But arcane magic actually is MORE dangerous, in its own way. Arcane magic isn't about big explosions (or dealing damage). Haste is the strongest 3rd level spell, invisibility the strongest 2nd level spell, etc. That's doubly true in a dungeon crawl. If you play a wizard (sorcs are rather lame in comparison), focus on buffs and utility spells, and status spells (ray of enfeeblement, touch of idiocy, stinking cloud, hold person) for offense. 2. I can also understand your complaints about not being allow to play what you want. DMs don't have to 'understand the psionics rules' (they're not that different), much less own the book; nor do they have to accept the out of the box flavor of the mentalist. The psion, used as a blaster, can be the same flavor-wise as the sorcerer, but he's mechanically better done. Unfortunately, there's no solution for this. Once a DM starts down the dark path of no-psionics or, worse, Core Only, no player can sway him and any attempt to do so will see you branded a munchkin. Unless your DM is a master storyteller who leads you through the most compelling campaigns of your life (doesn't sound it), there's no good reason to suffer through this. 3. Your group sounds like a bunch of twits - or very young players. In the former case, find a better group. In the latter case, you may find it worth your while to give them time. My advice if you stay? Play a gatling chain tripper, the fighter who's like an area-effect spellcaster. Make their barbarians and fighters useless by defeating every enemy in melee without a scratch. Make them BEG you to go back to playing spellcasters. Or, suck it up, play a druid (or artificer) and own all their pansy rears with by far the most powerful core classes.
Psimind25 12-30-04, 12:35 PM	well. im 18 and will turn 19 in june. there are 4 11-15 year olds including the 14 year old. the 2 others, one is 17 and the other 18 like me. ive had the most respect from these two as they worked with me and respected my wishes as far as spells went. 2 two elder players, the 17 year old was a Halfling Fighter and he was working towards becoming a Duelist, and the other 18 year old was a Gnome Bard. the kids were, if i remeber correctly, one was a Barbarian (Half-Orc with a Greataxe as weapon of choice.) another was a Ranger (two-weapon combat style, was a Drow, with 2 Rapiers.). another was a Cleric (Drow with Healing/Protection domains.) and the last one was a Paladin. (Regular elf w/ Geatsword as weapon of choice.) I had 3 characters. i was the only person toeven die til the Bard died and he remade to a Druid. then recently before i quit, Pally died and he remade to a fighter with dual Bastard swords. My first was my Wizard, Generalizing in all schools, he was murdered by the ranger for 1. being hit by a burning hands spell (that i warned him abut 100 times about!) 2. setting a tree on fire by accident as the Spiders was using it for cover. Second was my Druid, which i was aparently ery n00bish and very bad at. the party abondoned me to goblins because i "Sucked and wasnt worth saving" third was my cleric, which is the drow cleric conflicting my cleric because i was simly playing a different kind of cleric. thats when i left the campeign and i thnk the 2 older kids did too i heard.
General Dorsey 12-30-04, 12:53 PM	Have you even tried to make a sorcerer or wizard with similar powers to the psion? I started a list, but got bored quickly when I realized this is your job. Here is a very short list using less than half the 1st level powers: Power = Spell Attraction = Charm Person Catfall = Feather Fall Control Light = Darkness/Continual Flame Create Sound = Ghost Sound Crystal Shard = Magic Missile Daze, Psionic = Daze Deceleration = Slow Demoralize = Cause Fear I think you can find plenty more if you try. Perhaps talk to you DM about using these powers and calling them psionics but use the rules for magic. As for people who think that the DM is a twit for not allowing something like psionics, you are sorely mistaken. The DM is well within his rights to disallow any portion of any book in his game. This includes the PHB. I allow psionics, but I also understand them and so do those players who use them. However, I would not expect every DM to be as versed as I am. It could be argued that someone who is unwilling to play something within the confines of the setting is more of a twit (I am not saying you are psimind, I am trying to make a point to someone else). By not being flexible or caring about the DM's setting or skill level, it shows high level of selfishness and low level of maturity. Psimind, sit down with your DM and see what you can do to work out a PC that does fit into his world. Venting to us isn't going to get you anywhere. You need to work with him. See if he can help you understand the magic system. See if he can help you choose the most effective spells and make sure that you understand how they work. No matter what any of us think about psionics, your DM has the final say. Another option you have is DM yourself. Introduce psionics as part of the setting and see if you can use them as a way to teach the rest of the group how they work. Whatever you do, do not create a DMPC for this purpose. You can use little bits of psionics instead. Have a psionic organization as the main antagonist for them.
Psimind25 12-30-04, 01:02 PM	i dont have the experience, nor the means, to dm myself. i wanted to enjoy being a player before being a dm. i was tld its a priledge to be a dm and you sould only do it once you have a great deal of experience and/or you are close to being a rules lawyer. its not like i dont want to dm. it justs seems really duntng to me, to lead everthing and plan everything. id ike to learn how to be a better player first. i allready ducked out of that grop and am searching for another. just havent had any luck.
HomebrewedMonster 12-30-04, 01:15 PM	So your 5 years older than the rest of the gamers, find another group. Those five years make a huge difference in maturity. Although I have yet to see it from you. I hate to bash you, but do you whine about not getting your way in every aspect of your life? I sense spoiled rich kid, but then again that's just all the psychology classes talking.
Psimind25 12-30-04, 01:33 PM	im just very tired of everything else ive tried failing. the 2 campeigns i actualy had fun with, the first was the first time i played dnd, and i had a bunch of great players helping me learn the game. the second is when i fell in love with psionics, as i had a much easier time Being a Psion then i ever did with beig a sorcerer or wizard, and not expected to do certain things like a cleric (ie. people basing me for being a offensive cleric. i still healed, but not as much as the cleric that was devoted to healing). i kow how much fun DnD can be, i want to have those times again.
striderII 12-30-04, 03:35 PM	2. I can also understand your complaints about not being allow to play what you want. DMs don't have to 'understand the psionics rules' (they're not that different), much less own the book; nor do they have to accept the out of the box flavor of the mentalist. The psion, used as a blaster, can be the same flavor-wise as the sorcerer, but he's mechanically better done. Unfortunately, there's no solution for this. Once a DM starts down the dark path of no-psionics or, worse, Core Only, no player can sway him and any attempt to do so will see you branded a munchkin. Unless your DM is a master storyteller who leads you through the most compelling campaigns of your life (doesn't sound it), there's no good reason to suffer through this. By the way you've worded this, I infer a few things: 1. DM's do not need to understand the rules that pertain to the PC's in their campaign. 2. If a DM runs a "no-psionic" game, he's wrong. 3. If a DM runs a "core only" game, not only is he wrong, but somehow shortchanging the players. 4. DM's that run "core only" games feel that everyone else is a munchkin. 5. A player shouldn't play in a "core only" game because they suck, unless the DM is awesome. If even one of these inferences are correct, much less multiple ones, then there are so many things wrong with your statement, I wouldn't even know where to start telling you where you're wrong. Although I will probably give it the ol' college try later when I have more time. :) strider
Psimind25 12-30-04, 03:41 PM	another thought: if wizards are supposed to buff, what does that make clerics, let alone bards.... Chopped liver? isnt the wizard buffing a bit of overkill if you got a cleric, bard and even a druid/pally/ranger ding it to some extent?
Reinhardt_Wyrd 12-30-04, 04:41 PM	Maybe try a warlock?
Psimind25 12-30-04, 04:45 PM	a warlock?
Board_Rider 12-30-04, 04:56 PM	A Warlock is in the Complete Arcane. Why do we keep this thread going?
Phrennzy 12-30-04, 05:06 PM	If the wizard is buffing then the cleric can run into combat and not worry so much about being a support PC. Psionics will never enter my games - it's too far away from D&D fantasy to me. As a wizard, there are a few spells you can use in combat without interefering with the fighters. Ray of Enfeeblement Magic Missile Daze Ray of Frost Acid Splash Scorching Ray CHarm Person Grease on either the weapon of the BBEG or on the floor nearby. Summon Monster - which rocks, even at low levels. CHeck out the Ape/Gorilla. 3 attacks. True Strike one of the archers or background people. Cause Fear Chill Touch & Shocking Grasp - Both of these are touch attacks, which require getting in close, but that's what Mage Armor and Dexterity are for. Reduce Person There are a lot. It's all in how you use them. Once you get an item creation feat, crank out a wand or two and start blasting. Suddenly you can crank out 3 or 4 scorching rays every fight, taking down the foes that the fighters can't hit because their AC is too high.
Phrennzy 12-30-04, 05:19 PM	the party abondoned me to goblins because i "Sucked and wasnt worth saving" I have added this monument to your suckitude to my sig. Thanks for the laugh!
Psimind25 12-30-04, 06:08 PM	hmm, it justs hurts why psionics, what i had the most enjoyment with, is so, hated? what is it about psionics that makes people gag? i could see psionics fitting pretty easily into most dnd fantasy. and with the new rules, it fits pretty seamlessly into the rules. i have a friend who stated this "Honestly, if the DM isn't going to work with you, as hard as it is to find a good DM, go elsewhere. If he's going to be that tough about your character creation, I have to wonder just how much fun you'd have in the game itself. Let him know you don't enjoy arcane / divine casters and weapons-oriented isn't your style. If you want to really prove him wrong, though, then go to the Character Optimization board and pull one of their power builds to run amok with him until he caves :p Maybe I'm just mean, but if I want to play something that isn't overly powerful and it isn't far beyond the realm of reason (XPH is published by WotC, so it's not a 3rd party book, and is 3.5 compatible) but the DM is being unreasonable, I'd make him rethink not allowing me to have the char I wanted to begin with :p IMO, he's brushing off your request. Psionics as a whole is in the SRD, so he doesn't have to buy anything to learn how to handle it, either."
Stuntman 12-30-04, 06:11 PM	well. im 18 and will turn 19 in june. there are 4 11-15 year olds including the 14 year old. the 2 others, one is 17 and the other 18 like me. ive had the most respect from these two as they worked with me and respected my wishes as far as spells went. OK. I've had the experience of playing with younger players. One was a complete wacko who just did whatever. He would randomly drink unidentified potions, pulled out his rapier and charge into melee when he was a sorcerer. I didn't stick around with that group much after that. I wish I could give you some advice that will miraculously make those younger players see it your way and make your gaming experience all the better. Unfortuately, I have no such advice for you. From what you said in your other posts, it seems that the younger players do not respect the choices you make and are unwilling to work with you and your character. It seems that unless you play your character their way, they are unhappy. In essence, they are making it not fun or you and they don't really care about how you feel. I think it is more of an issue of the other players not knowing how to play with your sorcerer than anything else. Any experienced player knows not to charge into melee if the sorcerer has fireballs ready and you are facing a bunch of tighly packed enemies. I don't blame you for being so frustrated. If you have attempted to reason with them about tactics and how to best handle any given situation and failed, I don't know how much more we can do for you. It seems to me that they need some advice too. If you continue playing and are not enjoying it with this group, I agree with others that perhaps leaving this group is something you should consider. Personally, I would rather not play than to play and not enjoy myself. If you do not feel that it is worth quitting, that is your decision. I would hesitate to suggest using your fireballs anyway as I believe it would likely cause more problems and solve none. If you end up killing a PC or two, you may end up being kicked out of the group yourself. Although it may not seem like much, adding psionics to a campaign requires more than a trivial amout of work. Some DM's who wants to include psionics will want to incorporate psionic items, monsters and NPC's as well. Although psionics is similar to magic, there are some differences that, as a DM, I want to be familiar with. The fact that you can manifest your powers while bound and gagged with no equipment is also something the DM needs to consider when running a game. I think it quite reasonable for the DM to not allow anything other than the core material or even disallow prestige classes. DM'ing is not an easy job. If the DM is not comfortable with any material, he may not handle it well and the campaign may suffer. If you do not like the restrictions the DM imposes, you can try to convince him to change them. If that does not work, you have to either respect his decision and work within his parameters or (again) not play. You can decide if it is worth playing or leaving. It seemed that you have had pleasant experiences with D&D before. It seems that the main reason is that in those groups, the players respected the choices your character made. Were these older players? Also, it seems that you no longer have the option of playing with those groups anymore. Otherwise, I think you would have left your current group by now. With your current group, you probably just have to say to them that you are not here simply to tag along an to make their characters invincible. If they are not willing to work with you, then you don't work with them. If the barbarian doesn't let your cleric buff yourself, then don't heal them. Demand that they respect you first. If they still do not respect you and even try to kill you, I really don't think you should waste more time with this group. Personally, I've chosen not to play over playing with a group I am not comfortable with.
Psimind25 12-30-04, 06:21 PM	thank you for the advice everyone. its just hard. wizards and sorcerers arent very easy to understand, i seem to goof up how the spellbook works, i dot know how to cast effeciently. it just seems really difficult, druids i kind-of like but they seem hard to pull off as well because of the immense micromanagement (switching between fighting and casting). Clerics are great if im not pure support. i like playing a cleric who just doesnt sit behind the tanks. in fact my favored PrC is the BOED Celetial Mystic, which is insane when it comes to combatting evil, and can still support fairly well. ive tried a bard once or twice and had similar problems like the druid with the mutiple role micromanagement. a psion allowed me to go with the flow and get interesting effects (i prefer a shaper over a kineticist.) such as ectoplamic series like Ectoplasmic form and Genesis being 2 of my favorites.
MoogleEmpMog 12-30-04, 06:25 PM	Strider: I've DMed classes I didn't own and had only read once to vet them for absolutely insane brokenness (Hulking Hurler, I'm looking at you), and it's never given me any problems. If I overlooked something that turns up later, that's what the nerf stick is for. The core rules are not, as far as I can tell, any more balanced than any other given, randomly selected, rules. Are there more unbalanced rules out there than 3.5 D&D's PHB? Sure. Are there better balanced ones? Yep. Psionics, though not a personal fave of mine, appear to fall into the latter category from every campaign I've seen with them. Since the core rules are not inherently superior, nor does the DM have to expend more of his own resources to address players using non-core material, what logical justification could there be for limiting the game to 'core only,' save for either flavor considerations (a loyalty to the sacred cows of D&D than, in my view, is misplaced) or an erroneous perception that the non-core player is, in fact, a munchkin? Is such a DM "wrong"? Not as such, no. Is he needlessly removing things that might be entertaining to some players, and are clearly entertaining to the thread starter? Certainly. Does he have a good reason to do so? Not really. If I were terribly concerned with balance, I would disallow the druid and cleric, while welcoming the non-core swashbuckler and warlock, along with a great many of those terrible bugaboos of this board, 3rd-party classes. Now, the "flavor" of psionics, by which I mean the completely optional and swiftly replaced text that appears before the mechanical information, may not fit every game. Rather than disallow the rules, change the flavor. Just make the psion a sorcerer with differing mechanics if you don't have time to do more. I mean, why not? Psimind: Psionics comes with, in effect, a permanent "Still Spell," which is a free benefit. Still Spell is a rather weak feat for wizzies and sorcs, but any free benefit raises the hackles of some DMs, and for that I can't blame them. Sadly, the main reason I see for disallowing the very nice 3.5 psionics RULES is that the DM doesn't like the psionics FLAVOR. As I said above, why not change the flavor so it works?
Stuntman 12-30-04, 06:30 PM	hmm, it justs hurts why psionics, what i had the most enjoyment with, is so, hated? what is it about psionics that makes people gag? i could see psionics fitting pretty easily into most dnd fantasy. and with the new rules, it fits pretty seamlessly into the rules. i have a friend who stated this "Honestly, if the DM isn't going to work with you, as hard as it is to find a good DM, go elsewhere. If he's going to be that tough about your character creation, I have to wonder just how much fun you'd have in the game itself. Let him know you don't enjoy arcane / divine casters and weapons-oriented isn't your style. If you want to really prove him wrong, though, then go to the Character Optimization board and pull one of their power builds to run amok with him until he caves :p Maybe I'm just mean, but if I want to play something that isn't overly powerful and it isn't far beyond the realm of reason (XPH is published by WotC, so it's not a 3rd party book, and is 3.5 compatible) but the DM is being unreasonable, I'd make him rethink not allowing me to have the char I wanted to begin with :p IMO, he's brushing off your request. Psionics as a whole is in the SRD, so he doesn't have to buy anything to learn how to handle it, either." From what I hear, the biggest issue is that may people and DM's feel that psionics belongs in a futuristic setting and not in a D&D setting. I don't agree with this. There are afterall illithids and other psionic creatures in D&D. These DM's may not use psionic creatures either because it does not fit in their setting. I don't think that disallowing psionics is being tough. It is just unfortunate that you happen to want to play psionics. From my experience, psionics is rare in any D&D games I have played. I was the only psionic character in any game I played and I had a player in my campaign who was about to take a level of psion before I put my game on hiatus. You just happened to like playing a class that few players and DM's want to play or handle. I think that running amok in a campaign will more likely result in you getting kicked out rather than making the DM allow psionics. If you took that attitude with me, I would not invite you back. Also, just because it is in the SRD does not mean you are entitled to play it. Many DM's impose other restrictions for various reasons. The best approach that you can take is to ask your DM to let you try a psion for a session or two. If he doesn't like it then you can conceed and just make a new character that is within his parameters or not play.
Psimind25 12-30-04, 06:34 PM	i had allready left that group. i ha called the dm up today and told him to not expect me anymore. and apparently the older players had left as well. so now, im looking for ways that i can play a given class and have as much fun as i did when i first stated playing. i started playing, about when the BOED first came out. ive played in i think 8 campeigns total, 7 of them ending with me being kicked out solely because of inexperience or me leaving because i didnt feel i fitted in with the group, when i didnt play my class effectively and i felt like i was a drog on the group. so i still dont have much experience. it just seems ike the classes that could interest me other than psionics are hard to use for an inexperienced player.
Stuntman 12-30-04, 06:41 PM	i had allready left that group. i ha called the dm up today and told him to not expect me anymore. and apparently the older players had left as well. so now, im looking for ways that i can play a given class and have as much fun as i did when i first stated playing. What about those other older players who already left? It seems like you got along OK with them? Perhaps you can join in with them if they have another group to play with.
Psimind25 12-30-04, 06:49 PM	i tried getting in contact with them. i havent been able to. is there any way to make it easier to adapt to non-psionic classes so its still fun, wizards seem daunting and difficult, and so do sorcerers, and by using these utility spells, i think it wound again be a lot of micromanagement and feel difficult like a druid or Bard.
Stuntman 12-30-04, 06:55 PM	i tried getting in contact with them. i havent been able to. is there any way to make it easier to adapt to non-psionic classes so its still fun, wizards seem daunting and difficult, and so do sorcerers, and by using these utility spells, i think it wound again be a lot of micromanagement and feel difficult like a druid or Bard. I'm wondering why you feel sorcerers are more difficult to play than psions. I can understand a wizard in that you need to choose which spells to prepare each day. A sorcerer can cast anything he knows as long as he has spell slots available. The only extra bit of bookkeeping are "expensive" material components and foci. In general, if you have spells that use no or cheap material components, most DM's assume that you have the component as long as you have your component pouch.
Psimind25 12-30-04, 07:31 PM	arcane magic is deeper and more spread out than psionic powers, specializing in one school doesnt seem to help this as most schools of magic are important in their own way, thus its often better to generalise. psions choose their disipline and tha disipline gives a good premise for your chracter. also psionics allows you to go with the flow and do as you wish, especially if your a Shaper. i know this is hard to understand, its kinda hard for me the explain exactly.
Psimind25 12-30-04, 09:33 PM	i really dont know what to do about it anymore. i looked for more games, and none allow psionics, and im honestly too scared to do the other classes as im scared ill suck with them again. either a. its gonna have kids tats are tring to learn the game (or at least they say there trying to learn.) or b. ittl be a campeign with more experienced to me that wil be too busy discussing things in the party and have no time to help me out. (its hapened to me before, i even got kicked out just because i wasnt as experienced as the rest and very few of them looked like they wanted to help. so i was on my own).
Atrium Magister 12-30-04, 09:54 PM	If you are looking for a good low level high damage spell, direct damage spell, try Mount. Yeah, you read the spell range. Thats 25 feet...so stand next to them, the fighter probably took his AoO anyway, and drop a horse from 20 feet up. If someone can ge the weight, I believe it falls around somewhere in the area of 5d6 damage. Of course, there would be a reflex save of some sort...unless the DM allows it to hit for good tactical choice.
Psimind25 12-30-04, 10:01 PM	good point, but if im gona drop things on something, that just makes me wanna play a psion more, the telekiesis series....
e-z0r 12-30-04, 11:37 PM	You'll just have to deal with your insecurities, dude. You can't expect to be good at it when you go at it for the first times. The only thing that'll get you better at things like this is practise. Sure you can read up and double and even triple check what every spell does, but eventually you'll need practise anyway. You should keep on trying new groups, until you find one that's mature enough that they won't be twits and considerate enough to understand that you're a beginner and you're trying to learn. Personally, my group definately wouldn't kick you out because you "sucked" at combat. It's the out-of-combat that's important. Generally, game-disrupters and just plain uncomfortable people are the ones we don't want at our table. But the fact is that playing even the more challenging classes like wizards is not so difficult that a normal person won't learn it in a few sessions. It just wouldn't make sense for it to be too difficult.
Board_Rider 12-30-04, 11:46 PM	Why, WHY,WHY are you people still talking to this guy? This bait and switch game has gone on for way too long. Frankly, I am surprised at the posters that keep helping this guy.....you guys should know better I would think. e-zor why? "The telekinesis series...." Puhleeeeezzzz. Man, c'mon you're 18!!!!!!!! Grow up and move on....
Phrennzy 12-30-04, 11:56 PM	And yet YOU continue to post... It sucks you in, the blackness...
e-z0r 12-31-04, 12:11 AM	Why, WHY,WHY are you people still talking to this guy? This bait and switch game has gone on for way too long. Frankly, I am surprised at the posters that keep helping this guy.....you guys should know better I would think. e-zor why? "The telekinesis series...." Puhleeeeezzzz. Man, c'mon you're 18!!!!!!!! Grow up and move on.... Mainly because: 1. It's 7:11 AM where I'm at. This keeps me busy, hence it is good.
Psimind25 12-31-04, 09:47 AM	:surrender this is just so difficult, ever time i lay a wizard, it always happens, no matter how much i practice. or at least people could be more supportive of my offensive cleric, so that way i can nuke, and if they get hurt by a nuke, they have an evil alignment and had it coming anyway.
General Dorsey 12-31-04, 11:07 AM	Psimind25, how did you get so good at playing psionicists? Did you start with a high skill level or did it require some work on your part learning the rules and practicing. Did you have to actually figure out how the powers worked? What about the psioinic specific skills? The races? Did you beging gaming with this knowledge or did you have to learn it through actually playing a psionicist? I believe that you learned how to play a psionicist by reading the rules thoroughly and then through trial and error like the rest of us. You are going to have to do the same thing with any other class you play. After reading your posts, it seems that you have no desire to learn how to play anything else. A good player understands at least the basics of how every class works. A good DM must know. If you really want to be a viable member of any group, start playing something else and expand your horizon. Playing a spellcaster isn't any more difficult than playing a psionicist. Look through the Player's Handbook and find all the spells that mimic what you want with a psionicist. I started a list for you in an earlier post. You can easily play a wizard, sorcerer, or cleric that uses mental powers. It will just take some work on your part. Here at the Wizards site there are excerpts from various books that may help you. For example, the Mind Domain for clerics: Mind Domain Granted Power: Gain a +2 bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive checks. Mind Domain Spells 1 Comprehend Languages: Understands all spoken and written languages. 2 Detect Thoughts: Allows "listening" to surface thoughts. 3 Lesser Telepathic Bond*: Link with subject within 30 ft. for 10 min./level. 4 Discern Lies: Reveals deliberate falsehoods. 5 Rary's Telepathic Bond: Link lets allies communicate. 6 Probe Thoughts*: Read subject's memories, one question/round. 7 Brain Spider[M]*: Eavesdrop on thoughts of up to eight other creatures. 8 Mind Blank: Subject is immune to mental/emotional magic and scrying. 9 Weird: As phantasmal killer, but affects all within 30 ft. Combined with the Strength Domain: Strength Domain Granted Power: You can perform a feat of strength as a supernatural ability. You gain an enhancement bonus to Strength equal to your cleric level. Activating the power is a free action, the power lasts 1 round, and it is usable once per day. Strength Domain Spells 1 Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size. 2 Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level. 3 Magic Vestment: Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels. 4 Spell Immunity: Subject is immune to one spell per four levels. 5 Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses. 6 Stoneskin [M]: Ignore 10 points of damage per attack. 7 Grasping Hand: Large hand provides cover, pushes, or grapples. 8 Clenched Fist: Large hand provides cover, pushes, or attacks your foes. 9 Crushing Hand: Large hand provides cover, pushes, or crushes your foes. Then you simply have to choose spells and feats that suit your psionic-like powers. Spells like: 0-Level: Cure Minor Wounds: Cures 1 point of damage. Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft. Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or object. Guidance: +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. Inflict Minor Wounds: Touch attack, 1 point of damage. Light: Object shines like a torch. Mending: Makes minor repairs on an object. Purify Food and Drink: Purifies 1 cu. ft./level of food or water. Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks. Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws. Virtue: Subject gains 1 temporary hp. 1st-Level: Bless: Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear. Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds. Command: One subject obeys selected command for 1 round. Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages. Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5). Deathwatch: Reveals how near death subjects within 30 ft. are. Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: Reveals creatures, spells, or objects of selected alignment. Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft. Divine Favor: You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls. Doom: One subject takes –2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks. Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments. Entropic Shield: Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance. Hide from Undead: Undead can’t perceive one subject/level. Inflict Light Wounds: Touch deals 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5). Magic Stone: Three stones gain +1 on attack, deal 1d6 +1 damage. Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus. Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders. Remove Fear: Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per four levels. Shield of Faith: Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus. Summon Monster I: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. 2nd Level: Aid: +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10). Bear’s Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level. Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level. Calm Emotions: Calms creatures, negating emotion effects. Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10). Death Knell: Kills dying creature; you gain 1d8 temporary hp, +2 to Str, and +1 level. Delay Poison: Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level. Eagle’s Splendor: Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level. Enthrall: Captivates all within 100 ft. + 10 ft./level. Find Traps: Notice traps as a rogue does. Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level. Inflict Moderate Wounds: Touch attack, 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10). Make Whole: Repairs an object. Owl’s Wisdom: Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level. Remove Paralysis: Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect. Resist Energy: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type. Restoration, Lesser: Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage. Shatter: Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures. Shield Other F: You take half of subject’s damage. Silence: Negates sound in 20-ft. radius. Sound Burst: Deals 1d8 sonic damage to subjects; may stun them. Spiritual Weapon: Magic weapon attacks on its own. Status: Monitors condition, position of allies. Summon Monster II: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. Undetectable Alignment: Conceals alignment for 24 hours. Zone of Truth: Subjects within range cannot lie. 3rd Level: Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blinded or deafened. Contagion: Infects subject with chosen disease. Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15). Dispel Magic: Cancels spells and magical effects. Helping Hand: Ghostly hand leads subject to you. Inflict Serious Wounds: Touch attack, 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15). Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type). Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level. Magic Vestment: Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels. Meld into Stone: You and your gear merge with stone. Obscure Object: Masks object against scrying. Prayer: Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies –1 penalty. Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy. Remove Blindness/Deafness: Cures normal or magical conditions. Remove Curse: Frees object or person from curse. Remove Disease: Cures all diseases affecting subject. Summon Monster III: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. Water Breathing: Subjects can breathe underwater. 4th Level: Cure Critical Wounds: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20). Death Ward: Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects. Dimensional Anchor: Bars extradimensional movement. Discern Lies: Reveals deliberate falsehoods. Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to native plane. Divination M: Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions. Divine Power: You gain attack bonus, +6 to Str, and 1 hp/level. Freedom of Movement: Subject moves normally despite impediments. Imbue with Spell Ability: Transfer spells to subject. Inflict Critical Wounds: Touch attack, 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20). Magic Weapon, Greater: +1 bonus/four levels (max +5). Neutralize Poison: Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject. Poison: Touch deals 1d10 Con damage, repeats in 1 min. Restoration M: Restores level and ability score drains. Sending: Delivers short message anywhere, instantly. Spell Immunity: Subject is immune to one spell per four levels. Summon Monster IV: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. Tongues: Speak any language. 5th Level: Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification. Command, Greater: As command, but affects one subject/level. Cure Light Wounds, Mass: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level for many creatures. Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: +4 bonus against attacks. Inflict Light Wounds, Mass: Deals 1d8 damage +1/level to many creatures. Mark of Justice: Designates action that will trigger curse on subject. Plane Shift F: As many as eight subjects travel to another plane. Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses. Scrying F: Spies on subject from a distance. Slay Living: Touch attack kills subject. Spell Resistance: Subject gains SR 12 + level. Summon Monster V: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. True Seeing M: Lets you see all things as they really are. 6th Level: Antilife Shell: 10-ft. field hedges out living creatures. Banishment: Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures. Bear’s Endurance, Mass: As bear’s endurance, affects one subject/ level. Bull’s Strength, Mass: As bull’s strength, affects one subject/level. Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level for many creatures. Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check. Eagle’s Splendor, Mass: As eagle’s splendor, affects one subject/level. Find the Path: Shows most direct way to a location. Forbiddance M: Blocks planar travel, damages creatures of different alignment. Harm: Deals 10 points/level damage to target. Heal: Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions. Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass: Deals 2d8 damage +1/level to many creatures. Owl’s Wisdom, Mass: As owl’s wisdom, affects one subject/level. Summon Monster VI: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. 7th Level: Blasphemy: Kills, paralyzes, weakens, or dazes nonevil subjects. Cure Serious Wounds, Mass: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level for many creatures. Destruction F: Kills subject and destroys remains. Dictum: Kills, paralyzes, slows, or deafens nonlawful subjects. Ethereal Jaunt: You become ethereal for 1 round/level. Holy Word: Kills, paralyzes, blinds, or deafens nongood subjects. Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass: Deals 3d8 damage +1/level to many creatures. Regenerate: Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35). Repulsion: Creatures can’t approach you. Restoration, Greater X: As restoration, plus restores all levels and ability scores. Scrying, Greater: As scrying, but faster and longer. Summon Monster VII: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. Word of Chaos: Kills, confuses, stuns, or deafens nonchaotic subjects. 8th Level: Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft. Cloak of Chaos F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against lawful spells. Cure Critical Wounds, Mass: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures. Dimensional Lock: Teleportation and interplanar travel blocked for one day/level. Discern Location: Reveals exact location of creature or object. Holy Aura F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against evil spells. Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass: Deals 4d8 damage +1/level to many creatures. Shield of Law F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against chaotic spells. Spell Immunity, Greater: As spell immunity, but up to 8th-level spells. Summon Monster VIII: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. Unholy Aura F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells. 9th Level: Astral Projection M: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane. Energy Drain: Subject gains 2d4 negative levels. Etherealness: Travel to Ethereal Plane with companions. Heal, Mass: As heal, but with several subjects. Implosion: Kills one creature/round. Miracle X: Requests a deity’s intercession. Summon Monster IX: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. You might notice that none of the spells on this list have any chance of accidently affecting your allies. You still have access to all the other spells on the clerical spell list, but these spells are most like the psionic powers you relish. Feats to consider: Any Item Creation Any Metamagic Augment Summoning Combat Casting Eschew Materials Improved Initiative This list took me 20 minutes and I never cracked open any of my books. Everything here is either in the SRD or can be found somewhere on this site (the Mind Domain is the only thing not in the SRD). You can do the same thing. It may take you a bit more time, but if you really want to learn how to do something, it's going to take some work on your part. Why don't you try to create a sorcerer or wizard and as you select spells and feats, ask us for advice? You need to do the work though. You pick the spell and tell us why you think it is appropriate and we can give you some more insight. Or, you could do the same thing you've been doing, but that doesn't sound like you've gotten very far with that.
Psimind25 12-31-04, 11:16 AM	ell heres the thing, psionics was easier to just pick up and play. Magic takes an insane amount of study and is too situatioal, and its not jsut the teammates. its also hard to read what to dm will throw at you next, so its hard to pick spells. where a psion has powers that are good for any situation. btw. the mind domain has telepath-esque spells. im usually a shaper. ive yet to see ANY spell versions of shaper powers.
Stuntman 12-31-04, 11:42 AM	ell heres the thing, psionics was easier to just pick up and play. Magic takes an insane amount of study and is too situatioal, and its not jsut the teammates. its also hard to read what to dm will throw at you next, so its hard to pick spells. where a psion has powers that are good for any situation. btw. the mind domain has telepath-esque spells. im usually a shaper. ive yet to see ANY spell versions of shaper powers. Can you give me examples of the psionic powers that are good for any situation and examples of the situational magic spells? If you are used to a shaper, why can you not play a spellcaster with Augment Summoning feat and use the Summon spells? What powers other than Astral Construct do you feel are good in any situation?
General Dorsey 12-31-04, 12:29 PM	Psimind25, why are you so relcutant to actually listen to the advice you actively sought? There are absolutely 0 spells/powers that are useful 100% of the time. In all cases you need to decide which ones you know and when you will use them. You claim to be able to do that with a psion. If this is true (and I can only take you at at word), then there is no valid reason why you can't apply the same skill to magic. Why not take the advice I gave you in my previous post: Why don't you try to create a sorcerer or wizard and as you select spells and feats, ask us for advice? You need to do the work though. You pick the spell and tell us why you think it is appropriate and we can give you some more insight. Or, you could do the same thing you've been doing, but that doesn't sound like you've gotten very far with that. You are going to have to do the work yourself. I showed how easy it was, but you need to actually do some of it. If you really want to fit into the groups in your area, then you will have to adapt. If you don't want any help with creating and understanding how to play a wizard, sorcerer, or cleric, then you are on your own. I gave it a shot because I like to help people but I have other things to do besides trying to teach a rock how to read. If you want help, participate, stop complaining.
e-z0r 12-31-04, 12:56 PM	I'm done with this thread. EDIT: Removed part of the post due to possible violation of the CoC. And also for sounding like something an a-hole would say. (Not that I'd say that I am not an a-hole, but still.)
Psimind25 12-31-04, 01:12 PM	Astral constructs its easy to pick the pet abilities to defeat different opponents. entangling etoplasm and ectoplamic cocoon is good for any situation. wizard spells such as cone of cold, fireball, stinking cloud, wall of force/fire/cold. are all situational, you cant just use them. if you take them, and they you cant use them, its useless because youll have nothing else to do. summon monster series isnt very good as 1. you have to memorize what all the anmals do and you have to sumon a dfferent animal versus different foes. while astral contruct you can generate his abilities from the menus on the fly. 2. using summon monster can be scrutinised as Meta-Gaming. (because of the player looking at the MM. which is forbidden. my last dm even went as far to disallow summon monster seriers and te planer ally spels and even gate from being cast.) also i thing you all shold know, is i am disabled (Asperger's syndrome and i am autistic.) so i am really trying to learn. its just harder for me as i am disabled.
Stuntman 12-31-04, 03:00 PM	Astral constructs its easy to pick the pet abilities to defeat different opponents. entangling etoplasm and ectoplamic cocoon is good for any situation. The arcane spell Web and divine spell Entangle are similar to Entangling Ectoplasm but are area affect spells. Tasha's Hideous Laughter affects a single creature. The Hold Person/Hold Monster, Sleep, Deep Slumber, Otiluke's Resillient Sphere spells have a similar effect to Ectoplasmic Cocoon and Entangling Ectoplasm. Resillient Sphere is used to completely isolate the creature. The other spells allow you to easily kill the affected creature with a Coup de Grace. wizard spells such as cone of cold, fireball, stinking cloud, wall of force/fire/cold. are all situational, you cant just use them. if you take them, and they you cant use them, its useless because youll have nothing else to do. I take it you don't use similar psionic powers either then. There are similar psionic powers that do similar things. If you don't like preparing spells, you can play the sorcerer. That way you can use your spell slots to cast more useful spells. It appears that you choose only powers that affect a single opponent or you choose Astral Construct. Many people already suggested a large number of spells that affect an individual instead of an area of effect. summon monster series isnt very good as 1. you have to memorize what all the anmals do and you have to sumon a dfferent animal versus different foes. while astral contruct you can generate his abilities from the menus on the fly. 2. using summon monster can be scrutinised as Meta-Gaming. (because of the player looking at the MM. which is forbidden. my last dm even went as far to disallow summon monster seriers and te planer ally spels and even gate from being cast.) Looking at the monsters section of the XPF is the same as looking at the MM. If D&D by default included psioinics, some parts of the XPF will be in the PH, some in the DMG and some (the monsters) in the MM. If a DM considers reading about monsters in the MM to be metgaming, he would consider reading about psioinic monsters in the Monsters chapter in the XPF metagaming too. In any case, I don't know any DM that wouldn't allow a player to look up the abilities of any creature he can summon. It is not considered metagaming to find out what abilities you have. Yes, Summon Monster is not as flexible in that you cannot just pick and choose each ability, but I you will learn what each creature does in time and will be able to make the right choice. I'm not absolutely sure, but I think that the monsters you summon are more powerful than astral constructs. Usually, in D&D if one thing is more flexible, then it is generally weaker in power. I'll have to do more reading up on this to confirm. I do recall that the Druid's Summon Animal Companion II spell can summon animals that make multiple attacks. Astral Constructs of level 2 only has one attack. One thing you can do is to print out the monsters you can summon in the SRD and keep it handy. Also, keep your own table with a simple note about each monster you can summon. One monster may do a lot of damage, another may move fast, another may have other abilities. A simple note about each monster can allow you to quickly determine the best one to summon against any given foe. One combo that works well is Invisibility and Summon Monster. Since Summon Monster is not considered attacking, you can remain invisible while summoning your army. This is useful since all Summon Monster spells and powers have a 1 round casting time. While invisible you are more likely to be able to finish casting your spell. A Shaper has no invisibility power and during that round he is more vulerable to having his power disrupted before he finishes manifesting it. If you DM disallows Summon Monsters, he would probably disallow Astral Constructs for the same reason. I think that this DM is unreasonable to do this an most other people would agree with me as well. You should be able to know the abilities of the monsters you summon.
Psimind25 12-31-04, 03:33 PM	yeah true, but those smilar spells are area of effect you said. thats bad. i cant use the single targot ones because they are mind affecting and the LG character will usually assmue that as evil.
Stuntman 12-31-04, 05:15 PM	yeah true, but those smilar spells are area of effect you said. thats bad. i cant use the single targot ones because they are mind affecting and the LG character will usually assmue that as evil. Mind affecting spells are not evil unless you use them for evil. I don't know where you or the player of the LG character got the idea that mind affecting spells are evil. Use them against evil and it is a good act.
Psimind25 12-31-04, 05:26 PM	ok, thank you for clearing that up. as for sorcerers, i dont have any books that give me a nice prestige class to work towards outside the BOED and i heard the Exalted Arcnist isnt that Great anyway. i dont have tome and blood/unearthed arcana/complete arcane. these the are the books i have: Core: PHB 3.5 MM 3.5 DMG 3.5 Splat: Defenders of the faith (cleric and pally) Sword and fist (fighters and monks) noncore nosplat books: Book of exalted deeds Book of vile darkness expanded psionic handbook Monster Manual 2 Campeign settings: FRCS Ebberon CS ps. this was another thing that made sorcerers and wizard hard, lack of Prcs to interest me again PrCs arent everything, but they make it more interesting by giving me abilities that make me unique.
Stuntman 12-31-04, 05:46 PM	as for sorcerers, i dont have any books that give me a nice prestige class to work towards outside the BOED and i heard the Exalted Arcnist isnt that Great anyway. i dont have tome and blood/unearthed arcana/complete arcane. ... ps. this was another thing that made sorcerers and wizard hard, lacxk of Prcs to interest me. If you are a beginner (which it appears you are), I would avoid using BOED. You can just stick to the core books and use the core, base classes. I don't see why a lack of a good prestige class prevents you from playing a wizard or sorcerer. If you don't like any prestige classes, don't take them. There is no rule that requires you to take a prestige class. Also, if you are still learning the game, I would just stick to a single base class and not multiclass. Just look through the spells you like and take those. Remember, most of the spells are neither good nor evil. The only one that is clearly evil is Animate Dead. I don't think any other low level sorcerer spells are inherently good or evil. If it is, it will probably say so in the spell description.
Psimind25 12-31-04, 05:52 PM	hmm, but it seems other keep telling me to use Prcs, like everyones talking about warlock and archmage to me on the character optimization boards.
Stuntman 12-31-04, 06:05 PM	hmm, but it seems other keep telling me to use Prcs, like everyones talking about warlock and archmage to me on the character optimization boards. If you are not very skilled at playing a simple sorcerer, a prestige class will just make it harder. My advice is to just stick to a single classed sorcerer for now.
Psimind25 12-31-04, 06:07 PM	i really dont know, thats just what they are saying, i dont want to be ineffective like they tell me ill be wihtout a PrC. theres saying how vital PrC's are.
Stuntman 12-31-04, 06:21 PM	I think you're exaggerating. You won't be ineffective without a PrC. I'd worry about what spells, feats and skills to take rather than a PrC. You should only take a PrC only if you are interested in the class. If you are not interested in a PrC, don't take it no matter how powerful other people say it is.
Psimind25 12-31-04, 06:46 PM	hmm, okay ill just keep looking for non-PrC help at the character optimization boards. in fact, i better post the info here so you guys can look then over and offer some other opinions other than the char optimization ppl.: im level 1: Race: Half elf Str: 12 +1 Dex: 14 +2 Con: 12 +1 Int: 14 +2 Wiz: 12 +1 Cha: 17 +3 Spells known: 0 level spells (4): Ray of frost Acid splash Light Resistance 1st level spells (2+1 bonus for 17 CHA, so 3): Burning Hands Color Spray Summon Monster I Feats: Echrew Materials this will be my character i found for a game right here on the boards.
General Dorsey 12-31-04, 10:06 PM	Psimind25, first let me apologize for sounding rude earlier. I was getting frustrated, but that really isn't a good excuse. I had a fellow gamer with Asperger's syndrome for some time. We didn't know he had it until after he had committed suicide. Knowing what I know now about it, I can be more patient and try to understand. It appears you are making a real effort to work on playing something other than psionics. Good. So far, I think your character looks okay. I agree with everyone here who says you do not need a prestige class to be effective. The optimization boards really aren't all that great unless you know exactly how you want to optimize your character. Avoid them for now until you know more about the game you are in. One thing I noticed was that you know 3 first level spells. Unfortunately, you can only know two. The number of spells known is not affected by your Charisma. Your Charisma will affect the number of spells you can cast per day however. I might consider dropping burning hands for the time being. While color spray only works on living beings, it is very potent at this level. You can drop it later when it is no longer useful. You have the summon monster to deal with non-living creatures. To speed up game play, you can find stat blocks for every monster you can summon so you don't have to flip through the Monster Manual. Making a spellcaster may seem daunting at first. You might want to see if you can download a copy of PCGen if you don't have eTools just to make your life easier. PCGen might run a little slow sometimes, but I find it to be rather accurate. You can find the latest version here (http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/01_news.php). Good luck. I hope this group works out for you. Who knows, maybe you'll like sorcerers better than psioincists?
Psimind25 12-31-04, 10:16 PM	well im been Pming with someone and he said its a bad idea to NOT prc a sorcerer. he said i should gun for an exalted arcanist and when i i get exalted arcanist to the point i can take lesser planer ally, take my first level of Thalmaturgist. he said sorcerers seem very underpowered and ineffecient without the extra "oomph" but i believe you. i did make one change though. i took out color spray in exchange for magic missle, as we have a a wizard Illusionist.
DeathMagus 01-01-05, 01:07 AM	well im been Pming with someone and he said its a bad idea to NOT prc a sorcerer. he said i should gun for an exalted arcanist and when i i get exalted arcanist to the point i can take lesser planer ally, take my first level of Thalmaturgist. he said sorcerers seem very underpowered and ineffecient without the extra "oomph" but i believe you. i did make one change though. i took out color spray in exchange for magic missle, as we have a a wizard Illusionist. The thing you have to watch out for on the optimization boards is power gamers. These dudes are usually rules experts (or think they are anyway), so they spot little querks in each class/prc, and then multiclass out the wazoo to take advantage of those querks. Really, it's cheating an imperfect system. Prcs were meant to make multiclassing easier and more fun. Rather than just taking a level of fighter, then a level of sorcerers, then fighter, then sorcerer, WOTC build the Eldrich(sp?) Knight to add flavor and interest. But PRCs are not "essential" in any way. I like your sorceror (although he only knows 2 spells at level 1, not three spells) and I think it has real potential. The Con bonus will be incredibly useful, as well as the +2 Dex. I think (I'm not an expert, I could be wrong) that what you like about psionics so much is that they're very direct and hard to resist. Come on, who in the core books has "resistance psionics"? But then again, who has "resist acid"? Your character has a high intelligence and charisma...maybe you could consider being the person in the party who thinks things through a lot. Perhaps even the spokesperson for the party, if you take diplomacy skills. In all respects you have an above average character there. Don't worry about multiclassing so much - D&D is about role-play, not roll-play.
General Dorsey 01-01-05, 01:22 AM	Psimind25, I've been gaming longer than most people on these boards. I have never needed to pick a certain version of a class (1st edition), a certain kit (2nd edition), or a specific prestige class (3rd edition) to make a viable character. Whoever you are PMing has no idea what you need for your character. In fact, neither do any of us. We don't know what type of DM or adventures you are going to be in. If you focus completely on fire-based spells, for example, and then the adventure takes place under water, you're hosed (so to speak). If you take tons of direct damage spells and then face mostly golems, you're not going to be very effective. This holds true for every type of character you create or play. A character based on critical hits against undead isn't very effective. You need to focus on what works in the game you will be in. Personally, I think that you should be versatile until you know more about the style of game play. Remember one thing with the sorcerer: as you increase in levels, you can change your spells. Don't worry if the spells you choose now won't be useful later. You can always fix the problem.
Psimind25 01-01-05, 01:49 PM	well te games is set in Ravenloft, what should i be prepared for?
DeathMagus 01-01-05, 11:44 PM	well te games is set in Ravenloft, what should i be prepared for? Never played there, but it sounds like treetops or high elevations...precarious, at any rate. If this is what Ravenloft is like, I'm thinking spells like daze or color spray, so you can stun people, then have a fighter send them flying to their doom. Of course, if Ravenloft isn't like that, disregard this comment
Psimind25 01-02-05, 12:50 PM	hmm, i dont really know, so i guess ill just have to see durig my session this week.
General Dorsey 01-02-05, 01:09 PM	Ravenloft stemmed from a 1st edition module of the same name. In it, the main villian was named Strahd and he was modeled after Dracula (almost a direct copy in many ways). The module saw such great success that they wrote a sequel which did fairly well. In 2nd Edition, TSR decided that Strahd needed a home. His lands became the first ones to appear in Ravenloft. Barovia was now completely under Strahd's control. The Dark Powers granted Strahd incredible powers over his lands. Other lands were formed and TSR moved many of their more famous villians to Ravenloft. Things to watch out for: undead, lycanthropes, golems (flesh mostly), and gypsies. Ravenloft lands are dangerous and evil, but not everyone you meet there is going to be. The people are just like the ones you meet everywhere else, except they are more wary of strangers. Check out: http://www.kargatane.com/ for some information. You can also do a search for Ravenloft with www.google.com and see what you find. Of course, if your character didn't start out in Ravenloft, it will be more fun to see what unfolds instead of researching.
Psimind25 01-02-05, 10:53 PM	ok i had my first session tonight actually. was rather long, it coudve conted for 2 sessions content-wise. but it was a sad one, as my poor sorcerer died. / :rant: everything started fine, we got our first job from an NPC in a small village. which was to scout for Lycanthropy Outbreaks in the near-by woodlands, the infested area was also known as a goblin clan encampment. as such, not long after we discovered the clan encampment, there was an encounter. at first they just appeared to be the gobbie clanners. they 3 goblins managed to win initiative, but during the first turn, they changed into there Were-form (they were Lycanthropes) where was were-rats for all 3. we never had to fight them, we could retreat, we were only supposed to scout, not kill the infected ones. but our fighter (is a 16 year old guy) had conviced us. "we can take em". the fighter and rouge and ranger were fine, the were rats had problems with their AC. me however, the were-rats apparently got really angry once i assauted them with ray of frost, acid spash, and magic missle casts that the other 2 who werent currently engaged charged me. some attacks missed. but the ones that hit counted. i was knocked to 0. after one of the attacks. the dm had me roll a save, which i failed. when the fighter and crew vanquised the were-rats (after having to intimidating them to chase the part to an area with road/town guards. which i was falling behind for being at 0 HP. the cleric managed to give me a heal bringing my hp back to 8. we got to a safe area, and time passed. then the DM told me i wasnt feeling like myself. Take a wild guess what happened next. I had become a Lycanthrope. i had been unable to control my form and turned into were-rat form and the fighter, who wasnt there when i changed, decided that i was one of the goblins and charged me. he took me down fairly quickly with the help of the ranger. so then i had to sit out for the last 3-4 hours of the session. as the DM was busy with the other players, and the players were busy themselves to help me. /end :rant: so, was that bad for a first session? and now i have to remake, i need some contructive critisim to help with the plan for my next character.
General Dorsey 01-02-05, 11:08 PM	You probably couldn't have taken them. They were too powerful. You should have ran. Looks like your character played exactly the way it was meant to. A piece of advice if you get into that situation again: everyone concentrate their efforts on one target at a time. The fewer attacks coming at you, longer you can live.
Psimind25 01-02-05, 11:12 PM	well i need to start planning my next character. unfortunately i wasnt the only one to die tonight. the fighter, had angered an NPC, which was secretly a Vampire. he attacked the NPC eventually and the Vampire pinned him and sucked his CON Dry. the Party had to run. they couldent save him. he is remaking to a sorcerer so i dont know what im going to do for a character now.
General Dorsey 01-02-05, 11:16 PM	Play what you want. If you want to play another sorcerer, then do so. Another bit of advice for: people aren't always what they seem. Be careful picking fights. If there is no reason to fight, then don't.
Psimind25 01-02-05, 11:27 PM	the dm even said hed help me, but he helped the former fighter first with creating his sorcerer, by the time he was done with him, it was time for him to go. i understand tht, but i really couldve used the help. i dunno, the fighter actually wanted to have a vote to KICK ME OUT OF THE GROUP JUST BECAUSE I WASNT EXPERIENCED ENOUGH! LIKE HE HAS ANY RIGHT TO TALK! *sighs* sorry. just kinda :censored: off. but thinkfully the other understood my plight and spared me from the cut. hes the only bad egg in the part, we do have another 16 year old in the group, the rouge, but she's a lot more mature than him. advice/opinions?
DeathMagus 01-03-05, 03:12 AM	How, exactly, is a party of level 1 characters supposed to outrun a group of Lycanthropes? (who have speed increases and LA +3) Killing off 2 characters in one session, the FIRST session? I think you've got a sub-standard DM.
Psimind25 01-03-05, 07:46 AM	we were only supposed to scout them. they werent inherently hostile (they had nuetral alignments before they got a chance to change.) but the fighters wanted to fight them despite the DM's warnings. the dm did however adjust the Lycanthropes so our party could get away.
Stuntman 01-03-05, 08:36 AM	the dm even said hed help me, but he helped the former fighter first with creating his sorcerer, by the time he was done with him, it was time for him to go. i understand tht, but i really couldve used the help. i dunno, the fighter actually wanted to have a vote to KICK ME OUT OF THE GROUP JUST BECAUSE I WASNT EXPERIENCED ENOUGH! LIKE HE HAS ANY RIGHT TO TALK! Let me get this straight. This fighter made the bonehead decision to take on a group of monsters having been warned by the DM not take them on. The result is that he got himself and you kill. Now this guy wants to kick you out of the group because you weren't experienced enough? I can't believe that he would say such a thing after getting two of his party killed. It didn't sound like you could have done anything better, other than perhaps trying harder to avoid being hit. I'm not sure of the situation there. If you got attacked a few times, either you weren't out of the way enough or the group failed to protect the sorcerer/wizard in the group well enough. If the DM agreed to work with you to make your next character, then do so. Also, you can ask him what you could have done better in that situation. Also, you could discuss tactics with your group, so you know what to expect out of them and what they expect out of you.
Psimind25 01-03-05, 09:35 AM	good idea, i think ill try playing a cleric this time. as soon as i get stats, spells and stuff figured out ill post them here.
armygamer26 01-03-05, 03:42 PM	Good job psimind, it is really looking like you are "growing" in D&D, and moving away from those people that you complain about so much. It is good that you are learning that psionics are not the only way to go, and overall more confusing, and complicated than it is worth (to me as a DM, anyways). Also, it is good that you are actually now working with and trying new things. I think that a cleric is a good choice, especially being in Ravenloft as you are. And just remember, clerics need not be Lawful/Chaotic good. You could always play a Lawful or True Neutral cleric, and when the party gets all pissy with you and then expects you to heal them all up, you can shrug your shoulders and walk off, whilst they get eaten by wererats, or bats, or cats, or whatever might be beating on you. It also seems to me that they are VERY, VERY immature, and really just want to attack things. WHICH, in Ravenloft, will get all of them killed... A lot... And playing with such prize idiots, you should make sure that you keep memorized at all times EXPEDITIOUS RETREAT... Otherwise, your body will join theirs on the pile... -Brendan
Psimind25 01-04-05, 10:48 AM	ok. here my base attributes, my dm had me create over the phone: Race: Human Alignment: Lawful Good Class: Cleric Str: 12 +1 Dex:12 +1 Con:14 +2 Int: 14 +2 Wiz: 18 +4 Cha: 16 +3 not too bad, i actually managed to roll an 18 this time. and the 16 for charisma wasnt bad either. Domains: Glory (BOED): Special Ability: Turn Undead with a +2 to the turning Check and +1d6 to the turning damage roll. Domain spells: 1: Disrupt Undead: deals 1d6 damage to one undead (can currently use) 2: Glorious Raiment: Imbue a robe, priestly garment, or regular clothing with Celetial power. Wearer recieves +1 Sacred bonus to AC per 5 caster levels and damage reduction 5/evil 3 : Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels, more against undead 4: Celestial Brilliance: Object sheds Brilliant Light up to 120 feet, hurts undead and evil outsiders 5: Crown of Flame: Aura Burns Evil Outsiders, Undead, and fey for 2d6 points of damage/round 6: Bolt of Glory: Ray Deals 5d8 damage (Varies against other creature types) 7: Sunbeam: Beam Blinds and deals 4d6 damage 8: Crown of Glory: Aura Inspires awe 9: Blinding Glory: 100-ft/level radius of light that blinds evil creatures. Good Domain (PHB) Speical Ability: you cast good spells at +1 Caster level Domain Spells: 1: Protection from Evil: 2+ to AC and Saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders. (can currently use) 2: Aid: +1 on attack rolls, +1 on saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10) 3: Magic Circle against Evil: As Protection, except 10 ft. radius and 10 mins/level 4: Holy Smite: Damages and Blinds Evil Creatures. 5: Dispel Evil: +4 bonus against attacks by evil creatures. 6: Blade Barrier: Wall of blades deal 1d6/level damage 7: Holy Word: Kills, parlylyses, slows, or deafens nongood subjects. 8: Holy Aura: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against evil spells. 9: Summon Monster IX: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you. Spells for the day: (3 0th level, 2 1st level with the bonus of having of having 18 Wiz, and 1 Domain spells) 0 Level spells i take: Detect Magic Light Guidance 1st level spells i take: Lantern Light (BOED: Ranged touch attack deal 1d6 points of damage) Magic Weapon Domain Spells: 1st level: Disrupt Undead hows this look?
e-z0r 01-04-05, 01:38 PM	Did you notice that a cleric learns all the spells of a spell level that he has access to? IE a 1-level cleric knows all the 0-level and 1-level spells. I think you might like to think about changing the 14 INT to a 14 STR and the 12 STR to 12 INT. Other than that, no good ideas from me. I've never played a 3.5 Cleric, or a Pen-and-paper cleric either. Just NWN clerics :) Did anyone give you an address to a system reference document to help you in char making? Here's one: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html
Psimind25 01-04-05, 03:32 PM	yeah, i realised that, those are just the ones i plan to memorize. Why do i need the 14 STR? i need the skllpoints to work for my PrC.
Stuntman 01-04-05, 03:46 PM	I think it's fine as is. If you want 12 Str and 14 Int, then go ahead.
e-z0r 01-04-05, 04:53 PM	Why do i need the 14 STR? i need the skllpoints to work for my PrC. You didn't say you were going for a PrC, so I assumed you weren't going for one. It's a whole different case if you NEED the skill points. For a straight cleric, the INT wouldn't be that important. Strength would be useful for bashing a few skulls in when you feel the need.
Psimind25 01-04-05, 05:39 PM	yeah, i need toe skill points to get ranks in the appropriate Knowlege skills. (Knowledge Religion, knowlege the planes, knowledge arcana, etc.) to meet the req. of the Celetial Mystic from the BOED. very nice indeed.
e-z0r 01-05-05, 01:45 AM	yeah, i need toe skill points to get ranks in the appropriate Knowlege skills. (Knowledge Religion, knowlege the planes, knowledge arcana, etc.) to meet the req. of the Celetial Mystic from the BOED. very nice indeed. Well, go for it then. Looks like you got it laid out for yourself. Do remember that the Celestial Mystic also requires a vow of abstinence.
Psimind25 01-05-05, 03:51 PM	i think i got the vow out of the way with one of the other feats required at first level as i am human.
DeathMagus 01-06-05, 08:08 PM	Well, go for it then. Looks like you got it laid out for yourself. Do remember that the Celestial Mystic also requires a vow of abstinence. Well it looks like Psimind won't be needing the Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge...