Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Legacy-Warrior 01-29-04, 01:59 AM	Background: A campaign with three players. I'd describe it as a mid to high power game, somewhere in between. The players are: Half-Orc Barbarian, the typical dumb smasher. A Vow of Poverty Monk, with Vow of Peace aswell, who is a general melee character that doesn't socially interact much. Great AC but struggles with Hit & Damge to kill enemies. There is me as the third player. I am a Minotaur Samurai, excellent at combat and competent at social interaction. Right now we're low-level questing and generally looking for our plot hook. My concern is that due to the combative nature of the early stages of this campaign my character is not just overshadowing the other characters but almost fully making them take a back seat as I kill almost everything. Granted the VoP Monk does very well and derives satisfaction in being nearly impossible to hit but he is clearly frustrated that he can't contribute a great amount to combat, even more so with the Barbarian. I'm a respectful player and I am not going to insult the players by laming my character's combat capability, they're smart and it definatley would be an insult to have my character fighting pretty half hartedly. I am worried about the satisfaction of the other players in the face of my character. In approximatley 2 levels they should catch up with me a bit but I'm concerned about what happens until then. I am considering always using my Power Attack feat to nearly it's maximum effect to help balance the punishment I'm dealing with how consistently I am hitting. The group is already a 3 ECL party taking down creatures with 40-70 HP with little problem. I fear that the DM scaling things to be more difficult will result in the other players frustration as I am the primary source of enemy demolition. (2d8+12/regular attack) I was wondering/hoping/praying that someone might have a good answer that would actually inspire party unity rather than increase the divide by obviously nerfing my character (insulting the other players) or having the DM try to play a subtle game of favorites (if failing also insulting the players). I desperately need your advice!
Ithilorien 01-29-04, 02:03 AM	The monk has VoP and is still having issues? Hmm . . . When you're a minotaur samurai you can't help but slice things up. The best advice I can give is to try making a slightly less ______ character. Maybe a cleric?
Dragontooth 01-29-04, 02:06 AM	Ask your Dm if its alright to play the Minotaur later in the campaign. If he agrees then play a normal raced character. When the party reaches about 8th lvl then bring the Minotaur back in. Your Minotaur character is effectively a higher class charcters over the others. Technically you have about 8th lvl where the others might be half that. So that is why your so good at killing while the others aren't.
Legacy-Warrior 01-29-04, 02:15 AM	"Technically you have about 8th lvl where the others might be half that. So that is why your so good at killing while the others aren't." I know why the power difference is there. One problem that I unfortunatley forgot to mention is that part of the story is critically based upon my character. Removing it isn't really an option at this point. I was hoping for advice on how to bide my time for thier two levels. Also as a side note this is the first time for our DM. He trusts me and somewhat leans on the power of my character to bail him out if things look sticky. Kind of an unofficial assist for him when he needs it. I need to be a bit tougher but am a bit too much so at the moment. Luckily he's leveling us fairly quick. I really appreciate your input folks, please keep it coming.
Ithilorien 01-29-04, 02:26 AM	If you're playing with a character at level 8 and the other two at three, frustration is a given and your DM is an idiot. The easy solution? Whack your DM upside the head with a Player's Handbook and make the other player characters the same ECL as yours.
Legacy-Warrior 01-29-04, 02:36 AM	Please refrain from insulting my DM, me, the other players and generally NOT giving any helpful advice with the given circumstances. When you've read, understand, and acknowledge what has been written previously (IE: "this is the first time for our DM") then feel free to offer CONSTRUCTIVE advice. I appreciate the thought of Cleric, however as I noted the removal of this character is not an option. I'm thinking of taking Imp. Unarmed Strike for my next feat rather than Imp. Critical. It fits the Samurai thing and it will help make it a bit more level across the board while allowing me to still have a useful feat (especially with large size).
Ithilorien 01-29-04, 02:45 AM	I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just naturally blunt. Given that it's your DM's first try, it should be easy to accept that he is making a mistake. Having an ECL 8 character in a party with ECL 3 characters is idiotic. There is virtually no way to provide a balanced encounter which will not slight or outright kill the lower level characters. Though eventually they will reach your level the way xp scales, they are utterly screwed until they do. Why not just skip the boring interim and jump them to ECL 8, as well? Being able to make those jumps is what makes pen and paper D&D fun (four hours walk to the castle? *BOOM* I'll just tell you that you've walked for four hours rather than make you wait them out). You yourself have said that the game is patently not fun for the other players at the moment - balance them to your level and it should be.
Legacy-Warrior 01-29-04, 03:01 AM	"Why not just skip the boring interim and jump them to ECL 8, as well?" Because we don't find the intermediate gaps to be boring. We like the challenges. We enjoy the bonding with our characters through the levels and more importantly we have unique experiences while doing this. Those experiences are what give characters real flavor, and not the cheese either (although I am a fan of bacon cheddar). I appreciate the thought but I think I will just try to issue orders on the battle field to help maximize the effectiveness of the other two members. The Barbarian has a 6 Int and follows me like a drone (which is the players fault) but hopefully I can involve him in combat while allowing him to role-play his scores.
Ithilorien 01-29-04, 03:13 AM	Originally posted by Legacy-Warrior Because we don't find the intermediate gaps to be boring. We like the challenges. Right, but I thought you were here because your companions weren't enjoying the challenges, and I quote: Originally posted by Legacy-Warrior My concern is that due to the combative nature of the early stages of this campaign my character is not just overshadowing the other characters but almost fully making them take a back seat as I kill almost everything. Granted the VoP Monk does very well and derives satisfaction in being nearly impossible to hit but he is clearly frustrated that he can't contribute a great amount to combat, even more so with the Barbarian. Them being at level eight would not hurt the sense of your characters bonding through levels, it would help. RIght now it's hard to bond since you smush everything while they sit back and yawn. It sounds like your campaign needs a little remodelling. What purpose do the other PCs have being with your character other than sitting back and soaking up xp, I wonder? They certainly can't be your bodyguards or the like. Again: you're level 8, they're level 3. This means that life sucks for them. Does your game end when they reach 8th level? Or would it mean glossing over a bunch of sessions where your friends are frustrated until they can actually do something? Make it divine intervention. Suddenly they're eigth level though no time has actually passed. In fact, to their understanding they always have been 8th level, forget about what happened in the past. You're worrying over something which is your DM's problem, as the stock answer for "can I play a Minotaur Samurai in your ECL 3 game?" is "no." The other players should be jumped to level 8. All problems solved. I don't mean to discredit the value of roleplaying or the fun of gameplay, but D&D is a game largely based on numbers, and right now your numbers are screwed up and it's getting in the way of roleplaying and gameplay. So, at least in my eyes, the way to fix things is to fix the numbers.
Rurik_Torunn 01-29-04, 03:55 AM	possible solutions: -) magic items for the other characters (or a cursed one for you) -) you could get cursed by a caster (lowering your strength for instance) This also provides an adventure for your party (if so desired) -) negative levels and effective level loss -) poisons can drain your ability scores (some even permanently) -) you could simply break your arm and have to fight with your off-hand only -) rust monsters can be nice encounter for the monk, while they might be a terrible one for you. -) you could get blinded, deafened, ... hope this helps! mfg, Rurik
the_heart 01-29-04, 04:28 AM	i have to endorse ithilorien's view, balance the ECL's. it's the only practical solution. even if he does it by doubling or tripling the lower level chars XP. players should be on a level playing field, to do otherwise can breed resentment and/or frustration (as you are discovering). second, your DM has made mistakes, admitting that should not be a problem. IMO new DM's really should try to avoid allowing players to use non-standard races until they have a firmer grip on the rules. harsh, but it is a fair statement. and balancing encounters is something thats learned, instead of you bailing him out, he should say something like 'i'm new at this, if i make a mistake, and things go badly, i can only apologise' or offer a solution that works for everybody.
kardock 01-29-04, 10:49 AM	i have a suggestion; since you're more powerful then the others, go simple, don't think complicated. just give yourself a temporary disadvantage. maybe you broke your left elbow and until fully healed, you have -4 tohit and -6 damage penalties? or something like that? i repeat, think simple.
drewrick 01-29-04, 02:36 PM	let the DM run the minotaur character as a NPC until until the rest of the party is leveled up.( allows for the story to still hinge upon him/her)... ...meanwhile, you run a second character that is around for only a short duration, ie one or two quests/plot hooks. then when it is even... you "story" your second character out of the picture and take over the minotuar character again. i totally agree with the others... you need to have the PC's at or near the same level to avoid your situation. just use it as a DM learning curve and have some fun!
Hengwrt Ellesmere 01-29-04, 02:55 PM	How many levels of samurai does your minotaur have? His total level is that plus eight levels of minotaur. If you want him to fit the party, take away some of his minotaur levels. Normally a character with monster levels has to complete the monster progression before adding class levels, but your DM could waive this rule. You'll have to suspend disbelief, but just pretend that he wasn't a full grown minotaur yet when he trained as a samurai. Here's the level progression for minotaurs, kindly exerpted from Savage Species by Wizards.com http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20030202ex
Savanna King 01-29-04, 04:31 PM	You could try to work at other tactics involving the other's strengths. For example, if the monk is nigh untouchable due to a high AC then he could keep the worse enemies busy, using full defense to increase his already high AC, while you and the barbarian work the smaller enemies. Then, once they're out of the way, you can work around to flank the baddie. Even though the monk might not do too much damage in comparisan to you, he will have a +2 to hit then which gives him a better chance to do some damage. Even if it's only 4 points it still puts the baddie 4 points closer to dead. Or the DM could work his tactics a bit different too. Someone mentioned spells or magic items earlier. A good Ray of Enfeeblement could even things out. I will repeat something that has been said already. It was a mistake on the DM's part to allow an ECL 8 PC in a party of 3rd lvl PCs. It is his first go so it's forgivable, and no one should be too harsh on the poor guy. If the storyline is good then give him time and he'll get better at not making those knids of mistakes. However, the damage has been done. Like I said, if the story is good (and it seems that you and the other players are enjoying it at least) then do what you can to iron the damage out to a minimum as much as possible. Have a talk and discuss it with everybody else.
Vyvyan Basterd 01-29-04, 05:02 PM	Originally posted by Hengwrt Ellesmere How many levels of samurai does your minotaur have? His total level is that plus eight levels of minotaur. If you want him to fit the party, take away some of his minotaur levels. Normally a character with monster levels has to complete the monster progression before adding class levels, but your DM could waive this rule. You'll have to suspend disbelief, but just pretend that he wasn't a full grown minotaur yet when he trained as a samurai. Here's the level progression for minotaurs, kindly exerpted from Savage Species by Wizards.com http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20030202ex Or pick up the Dragonlance Campaign Setting and play a Minotaur of Krynn. They are only +1 LA with no racial hit dice. Then you could either stay one level (?) ahead of the others or even offer to drop a level of samurai to equal them. If your intention is to help the situation. If you intend to keep playing an overpowered PC and are looking for advice to make the game more enjoyable for the others without bumping them up, I have none. And I would say shame on you for betraying the trust of your newbie DM by convincing him that playing an enormously overpowered PC would actually help the campaign. This just smacks of an ego issue.
Legacy-Warrior 01-29-04, 06:33 PM	"And I would say shame on you for betraying the trust of your newbie DM by convincing him that playing an enormously overpowered PC would actually help the campaign. This just smacks of an ego issue." Actually shame on you for making assumtpions. The DM is the one who talked me into the Minotaur. The original character was human. Also, the ego player left our group before the new DM started so no worries about feeding ego monsters anymore. I do appreciate the suggestion of Krynn and all other suggestions aswell. I'll ask the DM his thoughts on taking him as NPC in addition to whatever ideas he may have. Special thanks Savanna King.
Savanna King 01-29-04, 07:56 PM	No prob.
Vyvyan Basterd 01-30-04, 09:11 AM	Originally posted by Legacy-Warrior Actually shame on you for making assumtpions. The DM is the one who talked me into the Minotaur. Don't get me wrong, I only infer this if you aren't actually trying to remedy the situation. If you are just looking for ways to make the sidekicks feel better about themselves without adjusting the enormous power gap, then I stand by what I said. Hopefully you'll take any one of the suggestions above to close the power gap. It's good that your DM had to talk you into it, but you can see how other would view this as taking advantage of the newbie DM. Many people are probably wondering how hard he had to 'twist your arm' to get you to play an uber PC. You still have the opportunity to fix this mistake. If the power level of your party drops, then some guidance toward making appropriate challenges would be beneficial for your DM. All DM's need to learn and you should use the trust your DM has in you to make his game fun for all. I for one would refuse to play in or run a campaign with a wide power gap. Even if my character is the powerful one. It's never fun both sides of the power scale and often it isn't fun for either side.
danielinthewolvesden 01-30-04, 02:19 PM	Well, clearly the other two players are NOT 'enjoying the intermediate steps". You're WAY too powerful for them, they need to be upgraded. Nor have you answered our queries as to your level. What level of Samurai are you? What magic stuff do you have? How about the other 2 characters- what is their loot level? If they don't want to get promoted pronto to your ecl, then you can make it up by: 1. Giving them some serious magic. Won't work for the Monk. 2. Making them powerful races also. For instance the Bbn could be a wemic. The Monk a half-celestial or something. 3. Different classes. You are all playing melee types- thus they are constantly being overshadowed. If one was a rogue and the other a cleric they'd still have some valauable skills to add to the party.
dantedarkstar 01-30-04, 02:32 PM	Hmm.... Improved Unarmed Strike you said ? So next, you could get Stunning Fist, and when you get Ki Focus Katana, you could use Stunning Fist through your katana. This is somewhat non-typical thing, but may fit (AND, stunning enemy will make them easier to hit by your other party members, so this will also help them feel "worthwile")
danielinthewolvesden 01-30-04, 04:43 PM	No, that will just make the monk feel even more useless!:b: :sad:
PhaedrusXY 01-30-04, 05:38 PM	A minotaur with just one samuri level has an Equivalent Character Level of 9th. So of course your character is immensely more powerful than two 3rd level characters. A minotaur is powerful for it's ECL anyway, even in a group of equal leveled characters. So even though you say you don't think the middle levels are boring and you don't want to skip them, you already have! Your character is at least 9th level NOW! I think Kardock has the only suggestion that makes sense and would work under your circumstances. Originally posted by kardock i have a suggestion; since you're more powerful then the others, go simple, don't think complicated. just give yourself a temporary disadvantage. maybe you broke your left elbow and until fully healed, you have -4 tohit and -6 damage penalties? or something like that? i repeat, think simple. Heck, you could even have your character be horribly wounded so that the other characters are responsible for taking care of him for a bit. It could be in some suitably heroic battle where he sacrifices himself to save them. While he is healing up, you could play a different character. When the other characters have gained a few levels, say the minotaur is healed back up. Whatever you do, it will take something drastic to reduce the power level of a minotaur/samuri down to be equal to a 3rd level character. Hmm... here's something else: he could be level drained, or have his Strength permanently drained. This would greatly reduce his effectiveness, and could provide plot hooks for the DM when your party goes to find some way to undo it.
Savanna King 02-03-04, 05:35 AM	Another possible idea: How is the DM giving out XP? If he is going by the book(i.e. the party gets XP, not the individual, that is divided amonst the party), then you could take far less than your fair share. Maybe take only a hundred or two (depending on the amount) and let the other two divide the rest between them. If he gives it out individually, then you could ask him to give you far less then he normally would as the encounters are not that chalenging to you.